John Meacham finally goes there on Morning Joe.

[catbyte]

He said that "every thinking person should read William Shirer's 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.'" I listened to the audiobook in 2019 and the parallels are chilling. When a presidential historian of Meacham's caliber goes there, America needs to listen.

[Solomon]

1. Read that book more than 45 years ago and pulled it out to read again about 6 months ago.

No one here in America ever needs to ask again, how did it happen in Germany. And no one can say again, it can't happen here.

[NNadir]

10. I did the same. I've been reading now Dmitry Volkogonov's Stalin, less well known, but...

...certainly evocative of the enthusiasm for dictatorship among certain segments of populations.

[thucythucy]

55. I'll have to look that one up.

Thanks for the tip.

[NNadir]

61. Volkgonakov is an interesting guy. He was a Soviet Col. General charged with psychological warfare.

A devoted communist, he was charged, as a trusted figure, with going through the Soviet archives to review the history of the party.

During this process, he became disillusioned with the party, and wrote critical biographies of Stalin, Lenin, and Trotsky. I believe the Stalin biography was the first, and as far along as I am, he seems less critical of Lenin but clearly abhors Stalin and Trotsky.

I've heard when he got around to Lenin, he was disabused of enthusiasm for Lenin as well as Stalin and Trotsky. I have the other two biographies, and will do Lenin next and Trotsky last. (I read Trotsky's biography of Stalin many, many, many years ago.)

His research took place before the fall of the Soviet Union, and thus represents the very first honest biography of the Soviet era before the brief thaw during which the archives were open to researchers from the West as well as domestic researchers.

[thucythucy]

63. Wow! Now I have to look him up!

Again, thanks for the heads up.

I re-read Alan Bullock's "Hitler and Stalin" not too long ago.

It's amazing, and horrifying, how much death and destruction those two men brought into the world.

[hatrack]

97. "In The Court Of The Red Tsar" is also fascinating (can't remember the author) . . ..

IIRC, it was one of the first big post-Soviet research projects on Stalin, with substantial access to previously sealed records, letters and the like.

What was interesting was what it revealed about Stalin - funny, engaging, charming - a far cry from the "gray blur" he was once famously described as.

It makes sense - you'd have to have the ability to ingratiate and flatter and persuade to rise as far as the Kremlin Mountaineer did, all while retaining his title as the greatest mass murderer in human history, with the possible exception of Genghis Khan.

Our lives no longer feel ground under them.
At ten paces you can’t hear our words.

But whenever there’s a snatch of talk
it turns to the Kremlin mountaineer,

the ten thick worms his fingers,
his words like measures of weight,

the huge laughing cockroaches on his top lip,
the glitter of his boot-rims.

Ringed with a scum of chicken-necked bosses
he toys with the tributes of half-men.

One whistles, another meows, a third snivels.
He pokes out his finger and he alone goes boom.

He forges decrees in a line like horseshoes,
One for the groin, one the forehead, temple, eye.

He rolls the executions on his tongue like berries.
He wishes he could hug them like big friends from home.

Osip Mandelstam - 1891-1938

[NNadir]

99. It sounds like an interesting read from the reviews.

Besides Trotsky's biography of Stalin, which hardly could have avoided some, um, bias, I read Radzinsky's biography, billed as a first post USSR fall archive biography, which claimed the Stalin was planning a first strike nuclear war just before dying.

Of course this is the season of consideration of malevolent dictators in "it can't happen here " America and if the season comes to an end, as I think it may, interest in the most horrible human beings nay wane.

I believe that it may have been Radinsky who reported that Stalin had a magnificent singing voice, which he used to disarm his opponents.

Where I am in the current book is just at the beginning of the absolute dictatorship, the exile of Trotsky, and Stalin's use of a powerful ascerbic wit that finalized his rise, after overcoming Zinoviev and Kamanev.

I would not have thought a comedy about Stalin could be made that actually captured something about him, but the movie The Death of Stalin is both hilarious and on some level, not entirely removed from the reality of the historical situation. A subtle point is the maintenance of accents in English to reflect the reality of the different dialects of Russian that historically existed among the upper levels of the governing class of Stalin Era Soviet Union.

[hatrack]

100. I have to tip my hat to The Death Of Stalin as the ultimate in black comedy . . . .

Nothing quite so manic (or speedy) happened in real life, but Beria didn't even survive his master by a year.

And I have to admit to taking a certain satisfaction in the manner of his death, as the master torturer and rapist crawled on his knees and begged for mercy, at least according to Gen. Batitsky, who was his executioner.

[NNadir]

101. Apparently Stalin introduced Beria to Roosevelt and Churchill...

...at Yalta as "my Himmler. "

It is true that his death was not quite so maniacal as in the film, but most accounts, including as I recall Radzinsky's have him begging for his life at the end.

I recall reading excerpts of Anna Larina Bukharin's This I Cannot Forget . I believe it was there that Bukharin's letters to Stalin begging for his life, also buried in the archives, were discussed in which he begged Stalin to let him retire in obscurity with her. The old Bolscheviks had to go however, since they actually knew whence Stalin came, and that he was not at the right hand of the God Stalin did so much to create in Lenin.

For some reason, that I cannot really explain, of all of them, I have a certain sympathy for Bukharin. He seems less tawdry than the others.

[hatrack]

102. Incidentally, if you're never read "Dark Sun" by Richard Rhodes, it's well worth your time

The Making Of The Atomic Bomb is one of the best books on science, politics and history that I've ever read, and Dark Sun might be even better.

It's got a lot of coverage of Soviet nuclear history and the degree to which they'd worked their way into Manhattan is genuinely jaw-dropping. The fact that Rhodes is simply a wonderful writer is icing.

[NNadir]

103. I read the first, but not the second.

It was a while ago. I don't remember all the details but I do remember thinking it was well done.

My son interned at Oak Ridge two summers ago, and while we're dropping him off, we took the tour.

It gives one a certain perspective on the time.

What the Soviets got out of Fuchs, accelerated their development time, but they would have gotten ther in any case without him.

I attended a zoom lecture two weeks ago on the revival of interest in stellerator fusion physics, and the interesting point was made that American physicists rather smugly thought that the Tokamak concept was a lie and a fraud, until they went and measured neutrons at the invitation of the Soviets, whereupon the realized that the Soviets were more advanced than the Americans. That was Sakharov's baby. The Americans thereafter went full Tokamak.

The Soviets found the first American thermonuclear device amusing since it was the size of a house. Sakharov designed the first deliverable thermonuclear weapon.

Of course the Soviets were even bigger slobs at Mayak than the Americans at Hanford, but that was the game in the Cold War. It's actually been on my mind, since I've been writing about the geochemistry of plutonium and some of my references actually discuss the situation at Mayak. I'll probably publish something in my usually crude way in the Science forum.

The chemical explosion at Mayak was a near thing at Hanford. Both facilities used nitrates. There is an interesting public report out of Hanford when it was recognized that the Prussic acid extraction of cesium was not going to lead to the explosion of a Hanford tank as it had at Mayak. It had to do with a higher level of radiolysis at Hanford.

The Soviets, Mayak notwithstanding, understood much better than the Americans, the value of fission products. I have in my home library a Soviet text, translated by Israelis into English, on the analytical chemistry of technetium, in which the author decries the habit of treating that valuable element as "waste." It was written in the 1960s and was if nothing else, prescient.

They had a nice array of Sr-90 powered RTG lighthouses on the Arctic ocean. They were forgotten and lost, but whe world didn't end, and the effect was less onerous than melting the Siberian permafrost with carbon dioxide.

Given the political constraints under which they operated Soviet science had remarkable achievements.

[hatrack]

104. And as applied to your last sentence . . . .

Kurchatov was well aware that had First Lightning failed, Beria would have shot all of them.

[Turbineguy]

58. Trump is a lot like Hitler

But less competent.

[niyad]

62. For which fact we are most thankful.

[live love laugh]

65. +1

[Turbineguy]

69. Indeed!

[certainot]

68. in both cases radio played a huge part both times but RW talk radio will croak w/limbaugh before

next elections.

the rw radio monopoly was built for limbaugh and they can't replace him with one and by nature they're going to compete and break up the dittohead chorus

also AI is expanding automated monitoring and analysis of rw radio so it will no longer be invisible. MIT prototyped one version and commercial media analysis cos will be doing same to analyze advertising effectiveness and visibility etc.

the ad industry is fucked if they don't anticipate AI enhanced boycotts that will chase off a lot of their customers - theyre going to have to break the monopoly up before it happens and all those different station owners picking different replacements for the croaked limbaugh

those rioters were just cream of the crop dittoheads amped up with russian social media troll ops and all that falls apart, including the party of limbaugh, when RW radio falls apart. and many of those gop politicians who support trump now are falling into a trap that springs when limbaugh dies and the 1500 radio station megaphone that would have made excuses for them for months and years will not be there anymore.

[Turbineguy]

70. Limbaugh may be hard to replace

Although many would like to.

[dianaredwing]

79. Wow

Thanks. Most positive analysis I've read in a long time. Was in advertising for years because it seemed (to a naive 20 something) to be modern magic. I was Peggy. Anyway, it definitely needs reins as does misinformation of any kind disguised as truth. While it may be a while before we can fix the school system, this is definitely do-able and I am happy to read your post.

[certainot]

96. school system will be a lot easier to fix, like all major issues, when rw radio dies

imo it will die on its own with limbaugh croaking and AI but dems can really accelerate that with a new AI-enhanced boycott effort that the radio ad industry will want to avoid or lose a lot of customers to other media

trumpism came from limbaugh's ass. they really need to ask those rioters about their media choices, it's amazing to hear the gloom and doom from the analysts who live in cities and continue to analyze politics and media without being able to factor talk radio. they've been studying fish without water for 30 years.

the rw radio monopoly was an aberration. there won't be another trump because there won't be another limbaugh and there won't be another RW radio monopoly messaging behemoth short circuiting democratic feedback for corporate and russian think tanks

[Progressive Jones]

91. RW propaganda radio will be replaced by Incel Neckbeards with podcasts. The Next Generation. nt

[certainot]

95. not same. unlike radio, social media, podcasts etc are like TV - part of the free speech spectrum

people have choices.

there won't be a unified message to 50 mil a week, day after day....

what is unique about radio is the huge captive and near captive audiences hearing the same unchallenged repetition - the same because the few hundred blowhards on 1500 radio stations don't have jobs unless they all closely follow the limbaugh lead on important national stuff - ie benghazi, russian collusion is a hoax, hunter biden, trump is great, etc - and followed the same spin and tone when they could improvise on local events, issues - ie. fracking regs cost jobs, illegal immigrants are voting so we need voter ID, etc

[wnylib]

85. Hitler failed in his first coup attempt, too.

He learned from it and then developed more strategic moves to take over the country.

Hitler was not a good military strategist, either. His first "wins" were against defenseless nations. When he had to face real military adversaries like the Soviet Union, the UK, and the US, he blundered all over the place because of his egotistical, impossible demands of his own military.

Hitler was good at stirring up a fanatical cult following. But he was not brilliant. He came to power in a country that had barely known democratic government, that had been accustomed to a near absolute monarchy. Germany also faced severe financial ruin and bitterness over a recent military defeat. So it did not take any special brilliance to become a populist, fanatical leader of a nation in ruins.

Trump has also bungled. A smarter person might not have. But our country's government is older and more firmly established than Germany's government was in Hitler's time. The fact that so many people were swayed to such extremes by Trump is very disturbing. May we learn from this. Trump almost succeeded.

[Joelteply]

89. Hitler was pretty incompetent too

He just had better enablers and wasn’t as much of a coward.

[Hortensis]

81. Me too for the same reason, also Berlin Diary, fascinating reads

with powerful parallels to what we see happening on the right in our own nation of immigrants.

This time I did skip through a great deal of the archaic musings about the German character and its formation out of the past, which shortened both books somewhat, especially Berlin Diary, which he wrote from the middle of events when he was very young.

In those days westerners were shocked that what they'd always chose to believe could only happen only in faraway pagan lands happened in an advanced white Christian nation and needed to explain it away as intrinsically Germanic; but we know a lot more about human nature now and that "it" could happen anywhere.

[SayitAintSo]

84. Conspiracy... the movie HBO 2001 ... about the ' final solution ' meeting

Among Hitler's top people is absolutely chilling when watched after living through Trump.

[AdamGG]

88. Conspiracy was excellently done

I haven't seen it in nearly 20 years and still remember it so clearly. The casual nature of the conversations as they plan the specifics of the final solution and how some of the players were horrified by it, but went along, while some others were very enthusiastic. Excellent performances from Stanley Tucci, Kenneth Branagh and others.

[SayitAintSo]

98. Check out Mank...

Same issue, from a different perspective on the making of Citizen Kane... the encroachment of fascism and how we dealt with it then...compelling.

https://g.co/kgs/jBAqHb

[North Shore Chicago]

2. People need to listen.

Most have little idea how close the United States came to no longer being what our founding fathers envisioned.

[HUAJIAO]

27. We are not out of the woods yet....

[CaptainTruth]

74. True. The 74 million who voted for Trump are still with us.

And they will vote again.

[malaise]

3. DUers have been writing that for years

PHEW!

[Kid Berwyn]

9. Great DUers stood up to warn us.

Smells like coup spirit

By Dwayne Eutsey

April 27, 2001-Thanks to the investigative reporting of journalists such
as Greg Palast, more evidence of a coordinated effort to disenfranchise
tens of thousands of registered voters (mostly African American) is
surfacing in Florida. When these reports are considered within the context
of police roadblocks, cases of intimidation, and possible large-scale
voter fraud and ballot tampering, fears of an orchestrated dirty election
become more substantiated.

There is another aspect of the 2000 election in Florida that remains
largely untouched, however: the possibility of a domestic covert
intelligence operation designed to make certain that America didn't go
Democratic "due to the irresponsibility of its own people," to paraphrase
Henry Kissinger's remark concerning overthrowing the democratically
elected government in Chile.

Perhaps the possibility of such an operation in the US is too far-fetched
to take seriously, or perhaps there isn't enough evidence to proceed with
documenting such suspicions. Unfortunately, history proves that the
former assumption is naive (Watergate, Iran-Contra, and documented CIA
activities against US citizens come immediately to mind). Regarding
evidence, it's the nature of the covert beast to leave no fingerprints and
smoking guns behind (unless you're setting up a patsy). However, if you
can't find a corpse laying around, the stench in the air can often reveal,
nonetheless, that a murder victim's body is covered up somewhere nearby.

What follows here is not an expose of how a CIA-backed coup in Florida
helped kill the democratic process in November. It is an effort, however,
to draw attention to the disturbing stink surrounding events in the 2000
election that are similar to known CIA actions that thwarted democracy in
other countries, namely Guatemala in the 1950s and Chile in 1973. To
avoid the appearance of "conspiracy theorizing" on my part, I've limited
the information presented here to what can be verified. I have also
limited the focus of this survey to very broad similarities. Many others
connections exist and warrant further investigation (such as claims that
former CIA/FBI agent Charles Kane, who was involved in possible absentee
ballot tampering in Florida, played a role in the Bay of Pigs invasion and
CIA coups and dirty tricks around the world. He allegedly retired in the
mid-'70s and would have been employed during the Agency's heyday of covert
operations).

Hopefully, this general overview will help prompt others to conduct a more
thorough look into murky activities that, taken as a whole, suggest the
spirit of CIA-Coups-Past may have paid an unwelcome visit last November to
Florida.

Historical Background

By placing these facts within the larger historical context of CIA coup
activity, many of the baffling events transpiring in Florida last year
begin to make some sense. The same players (CIA, powerful corporations,
rightwing militarists), the same motives (preserving economic/political
power), and even the same tactics (armed violence, fortunately, being one
exception) begin to emerge that suggest some unpleasant connections among
them.

For easier comparison, I break down these similarities according to coup
patterns in Guatemala, Chile, and Florida. Unless otherwise noted, the
information here is from David Halberstam's excellent book, The Fifties,
and from the Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with
Respect to Intelligence Activities (Church Report).

Guatemala: Prior to the legitimate election of Jacobo Arbenz to the
presidency in the early '50s, United Fruit Company controls most of the
country's land, economy, and politics. The land reform policies that
Arbenz wants to implement, which would redistribute United
Fruit-controlled land to Guatemalans, threaten United Fruit's economic
interests and political power in the region. United Fruit has close ties
to powerful figures in America, including Allen Dulles (Director of the
CIA) and his brother Foster (Secretary of State). The Dulles brothers and
others portray Arbenz as a communist threat and convince President
Eisenhower that a coup is in America's best interest.

Chile: Despite CIA covert efforts to defeat him, socialist Salvador
Allende is elected as president in 1970. His plan to nationalize Chilean
industries poses a direct threat to the reactionary Nixon Administration
and the multinational corporate interests it represents. Prior to
Allende's election, the CIA spent years and millions of dollars waging a
propaganda war to maintain a US/corporate-friendly government in Chile.
After the election, the Agency is instrumental in implementing Henry
Kissinger's desire to thwart Allende's policies and in supporting a
military coup being planned by General Augusto Pinochet.

Florida: Strategically important in the CIA's covert war against Cuba
(and other troublespots throughout Central and South America), Florida has
been home to CIA mercenary training camps since at least the '50s (such as
one in Opa-Locka).

There is also an interesting Bush connection to Florida (apart from Jeb
Bush holding the state's governorship). According to a report in The
Nation, days after the Kennedy assassination in 1963 a memo from J. Edgar
Hoover stated that a "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency"
had been briefed regarding the reaction of anti-Castro Cuban exiles in
Miami to the murder. Although George H.W. Bush claims the name he shares
with the "Mr. George Bush of the CIA" is coincidental, a source for the
story observed: "I know [Bush] was involved in the Caribbean. I know he
was involved in the suppression of things after the Kennedy assassination.
There was a very definite worry that some Cuban groups were going to move
against Castro and attempt to blame it on the CIA." (see Joseph McBride,
"'George Bush,' CIA Operative," The Nation, July 16/23, 1988, p. 42).

The Players

What follows is a very general review of similar interests and
organizations involved in some manner in Guatemala, Chile, and Florida.

Guatemala:

CIA: Director Allen Dulles is a key player in organizing the coup.

Multinational: United Fruit Company is known as "el pulpo" ("the
octopus" because of its pervasive influence over so many facets of the
country.

Rightwing Militarists Takeover: A reactionary military junta is installed
after the coup, fronted by the CIA-selected Carlos Enrique Castillo Armas.
The junta is responsible for the mass murder of dissidents and years of
brutal repression.

Chile:

CIA: For a detailed analysis of widespread US covert activities in Chile,
see the Church Report.

Multinationals: "In addition to providing information and cover to the
CIA, multinational corporations also participated in covert attempts to
influence Chilean politics." Church Report. Among the corporations
actively opposed to Allende's election and his socialist experiment were
ITT, Pepsi-Cola, and the Chase Manhattan Bank.

Rightwing Militarists Takeover: With CIA support and the blessings of the
Nixon Administration, General Augusto Pinochet establishes a brutal and
reactionary military junta after the coup. As in Guatemala, the junta is
repressive and responsible for the mass murder of dissidents (including
Americans Charles Horman and Frank Terrugi, both of whom were tortured and
executed. According to a US State Department memo dated August 25, 1976,
the CIA "may have played an unfortunate part" in both deaths. See
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/19991008/01-04.htm).

Florida:

CIA: At least one "former" CIA operative (Charles Kane) is implicated in
shady activities during the Florida election. The attorney for those
investigating Kane's involvement in tampering with absentee ballots said
Kane's efforts were part of a "sinister underground conspiracy." ("Florida
Official Admits Helping GOP," Associated Press, December 7, 2000).

Multinationals: Oil, insurance, tobacco, pharmaceuticals, etc., all have
concerns about a Gore presidency and its potential for regulatory
activism. These corporations are eager to bring "business special
interests into politics so they can take over the regulatory bodies of
government and regulate themselves. ("America in the Grip of Bush's 'Iron
Triangle,'" The Observer, December 3, 2000).

Rightwing Militarists Takeover: The Bush Administration has established
"itself as the most brazenly rightwing of modern times. As the ecstatic
head of the ultra-conservative Heritage Foundation enthuses, the new crowd
are 'more Reaganite than the Reagan administration.'" (The Guardian,
April 25, 2001). Among the appointments Bush has made are Cold Warriors
(e.g., Donald Rumsfield), old Iran/Contra characters and intelligence
operatives (e.g., John Negroponte and Otto Reich; see The Nation, May 7,
2001: "Lie to the Media, Get a Job," by Eric Alterman).

Tactics

Media Manipulation/Reality Distortion

Guatemala: CIA "deftly created a fictional war over the airwaves, one in
which the government troops faltered and refused to fight and in which the
liberation troops were relentlessly moving toward Guatemala City."
Halberstam

Chile: "Press placements [by the CIA] were attractive because each
placement might produce a multiplier effect, being picked up and replayed
by media outlets other than the one in which it originally came out."
Church Report

Florida: John Ellis, Bush's first cousin, at the rightwing Fox News
decides to declare the state for Bush after 2 a.m., causing the other
networks to do likewise, creating the lasting (and false) impression that
Bush won the election.

Press Collusion

Guatemala: " . . . one crucial ingredient left for the success of the coup
. . . was the cooperation, voluntary and involuntary, of the American
press. This meant it was necessary for the press corps to tell the public
that the coup was the work of an indigenous Guatemalan force." Halberstam

Practically all American reporters cooperate, with the exception of NYT
reporter Sydney Gruson. After CIA director Allen Dulles puts pressure on
the Times, Gruson is removed from covering Guatemala. "It was an important
moment," writes Halberstam, "a warning to the paper's top executives about
the potential difference between the agenda of the secret government and
that of serious journalism."

Chile: Excerpts from the Church Report . . ."The most common form of a
propaganda project is simply the development of 'assets' in media
organizations who can place articles or be asked to write them."
"According to CIA documents, the Time correspondent in Chile apparently
had accepted Allende's protestations of moderation and constitutionality
at face value. Briefings requested by Time and provided by the CIA in
Washington resulted in a change in the basic thrust of the Time story on
Allende's September 4 victory and in the timing of that story." "According
to the CIA, partial returns showed that 726 articles, broadcasts,
editorials, and similar items directly resulted from Agency activity. The
Agency had no way to measure the scope of the multiplier effect . . . but
concluded that its contribution was both substantial and significant."

Florida: After Election Day, airwaves are saturated with rightwing
commentators, such as Ann Coulter, accusing Gore of being a "nutcase" who
is trying to steal an election that was, at the very least, in dispute; at
the most, it was a victory for Gore. (See "GOP Won by Planting Seeds of
Deception, by Roger Ebert, Chicago Sun-Times, December 14, 2000).

Lewis Lapham of Harper's noted that the "poisonous language" and
"paranoid" arguments being aired at the time were mostly coming from
rightwingers (although the Democrats were not free from "unctuous
statement, rank hypocrisy, and bitter diatribe." Still, when it came to
rancor and speciousness, he "didn't find the same sort of stupidity on the
Democratic side of the dispute."

A sidenote on the Press and the CIA: There are a number of articles
exposing the connections between the US media and the CIA. The most
famous expose was Carl Bernstein's "The CIA and the Media" in the October
20, 1977 issue of Rolling Stone. In it, Bernstein reveals the cooperation
during the '50s and '60s between major US media outlets and the
intelligence community, including, CBS, New York Times, Time, the Miami
Herald, and hundreds of others. The NY Times recently reported,
ironically enough, that the CIA has included news wire services (the now
Moonie-owned UPI, for example) as part of its "regular propaganda
apparatus;" this apparatus also included "Miami exile contacts with
Florida papers."

Although this report is based on a CIA document from the early '60s, it
was also reported this year (or underreported) that US Army psychological
operations personnel (responsible for spreading propaganda) were placed at
CNN's TV, radio, and satellite bureaus during the Kosovo war. (From a
report by Alexander Cockburn in Counterpunch, cited among AlterNet's Top
Ten Censored Stories of 2000).

Staging "Spontaneous" Revolts/Protests

Guatemala: CIA creates the "rebel army" that is supposed to be an
indigenous uprising. "One of the CIA's main responsibilities was to keep
American journalists out of the area lest they find out how pathetic
Castillo Armas's army really was." Halberstam

Chile: "The CIA was directed to undertake an effort to promote a military
coup in Chile to prevent the accession to power of Salvador Allende."
(This particular coup fell apart). Church Report.

Florida: Republican operatives are bussed into Miami in a GOP-orchestrated
campaign to shut down the recount effort and intimidate (and even
physically assault) Democratic election officials.

Targeting Special Groups for Propaganda

Chile: "The covert propaganda efforts in Chile also included 'black'
propaganda-material falsely purporting to be the product of a particular
individual or group . . . the CIA used 'black' propaganda to sow discord
between the Communists and the Socialists and between the national labor
confederation and the Chilean Communist Party." Church Report

Florida: African Americans received calls the weekend before the election
from a speaker who falsely claimed to be with the NAACP, asking them to
vote for Bush. (Midwest Today, December 2000: "Scary Facts About the
Florida Vote," by Larry Jordan).

Conclusion

Where does mere coincidence end and meaningful patterns begin? Even if
the events in Florida listed here (along with the more detailed reports
being filed by investigative journalists) are removed from the context of
covert actions, it is easy to conclude that something profoundly
disturbing happened in the previous election.

Reviewing the increasing amount of evidence demonstrating just how dirty
the 2000 election was, however, is it so unreasonable to think that those
interests whose hands remain sullied from Florida would have sunk one
notch lower into the murky depths of covert operations? What are the
limits when the objective is to grab power at any cost?

And what will those who seized that power do next time in order to hold on
to it?

SOURCE: DU via http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg66317.html

[Celerity]

11. +1

[malaise]

18. Most excellent

Should be an OP -Warning from DU almost 20 years ago

[3Hotdogs]

19. There is also a movie based on the book. I used to show it to my students.

It may have been an N.B.C. documentary.

[solara]

51. Thank you for posting this n/t

[uponit7771]

53. YEP !!

[burrowowl]

59. Good summary

[niyad]

66. Would you please post this as its own OP for visibility, and so we can rec it? Thanks.

[cilla4progress]

92. Here's the thing, though.

How do we disinguish this from their crazy conspiracies - in terms of credibility?

[Mike 03]

12. Thank you, Malaise!

You deserve another heart for that.



For what it's worth, Shirer's book is sixty years old.

Richard J. Evans' Third Reich Trilogy is a recent, comprehensive history that contains tons of information that was unavailable in in the 1950s. It is unlikely to be surpassed in terms of sheer scholarship, depth, and explaining and documenting the ascent, reign and collapse of the Reich. (It's just very, very long)

In terms of how Hitler acquired power, a more current history has been written by Benjamin Carter Hett in his minor masterpiece The Death of Democracy: Hitler's Rise to Power and the Downfall of the Weimar Republic. He highlights all the modern parallels.

[malaise]

20. I don't deserve another heart

I have way more than I deserve.

After surviving Jamaica in the late 70s and early 1980s I can spot trouble very early.
I was watching the Trump rally online while watching the Capitol on TV - when he told them he would be accompanying them to the Capitol, I knew trouble was on the way.
It was clear as day that Trump sent them to overthrow the election results.
There must be consequences or they will try this again

[Mike 03]

29. I'm so glad you supported this view from early on.

I love these threads where people are getting it, even if it's quite late. It's become really personal to me too.

I try to avoid conflict, but when this issue comes up I can't help myself: I usually jump in (and sometimes regret it later).

[malaise]

32. Well people are finally waking up

The propaganda is everywhere and you have to pay attention and read to know what's going on.

[soldierant]

93. It's not rocket science

or brain surgery.

But it is, I think, instructive as to how public education has been allowed (to put it diplomatically) to deteriorate under Republicans. I mean, I learned enough in public K-12 to recognize it without having to go to the library or use Google.

If Americans can't be bothered to read the "Rise" part, perhaps they can get scared enough to read the "Fall" part - maybe. Not that that will help much.

[malaise]

94. Excellent point

[hlthe2b]

4. I've not thought of that book for many years, but at 4AM, hearing him merely say the author's name

it immediately came back. He didn't even need to give the title.

[PCIntern]

5. I've posted that here for five years

Yes. And it’s a primitive book by today’s historical standards with respect to what we now know of the era, but on the money, no question.

[catbyte]

6. He said he's resisted using the parallel for 5 years, but after yesterday, can't any longer.

[PCIntern]

7. Thinking people always resist being blunt

That’s one reason why we always are playing catchup

[SallyHemmings]

13. Politeness is the face of a threat can be lethal.

[Springerjjhicka]

15. Meachem feels the need

to be impartial

[hlthe2b]

31. Oh, I've thought of the parallels the past five years, for sure. Just not that specific book

But, though I remember relatively few authors' names instinctively (outside the obvious), that one always connects.

[genxlib]

8. I started listening to it in 2016

For reasons that were apparent to me then. It is weighty endeavor at something like 45 hours of audio.

I made it through about a third of it before I moved on to other things. I was struck by how much the rise of Hitler in the pre-war years resembled the conservative movement and Trump in particular. The main difference that gave me comfort was that Hitler had a military wing goon squad that operated outside of government control. I did not see an equivalent for Trump. Fast forward 4 years and that comfort seems naive now.

I guess it is time to go back listen to the rest.

[Boomerproud]

14. The cult will never believe the danger they inflicted.

😣

[Butterflylady]

48. That's because their not human.

That's my thought anyway. To be truly human you must have a heart and soul. I can't find either of those in these terrorists.

[Blaukraut]

60. Oh but they do! Their intent was to bring about eternal Trump rule.

And when he, or the next version of him come along, they will try again.

[Eid Ma Clack Shaw]

16. Almost happened, definitely will

IF the midterms are won by a GOP effectively helmed by Trump. Unless there’s an against-the-grain triumph for the President's party, it’s hard to see anything but perpetual GOP rule at the Presidential level, regardless of how many votes they lose by.

Continued electoral humiliation at all levels is required for Republicans to move away from the precipice.

[Tom Rinaldo]

28. Steve Schmidt said it bluntly

This isn't an exact quote, but it's close: "The Republican Party can not be allowed to win a national election in the foreseeable future or it will be our last free election."

[HootieMcBoob]

17. PBS's The Rise of The Nazis

Can be suggested for anyone who doesn’t have the time or capacity for that whole book.

It’s a great documentary and very enlightening. The parallels are undeniable and frightening.

[llmart]

37. +1

Also, Rick Steves did an hour long episode on the rise of fascism in Europe. Many people would never think to read a book like the one in this op, but they could watch a program about how it came about (let's face it - most Americans are not as literate as Du'ers) and have it sink in. Many people don't have the time for it either if they are in the stage of life where they are raising their families and trying to keep their heads above water.

[localroger]

21. The importance of TRAFOTTR

Shirer was a reporter stationed in Berlin until it became impossible for him to stay there. He saw most of the events he recorded firsthand, and he wanted to record his history while it was still fresh in his memory because he realized it would be so unbelievable to someone who had not lived through it. The book is rich in details which might not seem immediately pertinent to the central story, but which lend verisimilitude to a tale which might seem fanciful or even outrageous if it were told in a more direct way.

[catbyte]

25. This is another excellent book by Shirer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Diary

Berlin Diary ("The Journal of a Foreign Correspondent 1934–1941" ) is a first-hand account of the rise of Nazi Germany and its road to war, as witnessed by the American journalist William L. Shirer.[2] Shirer covered Germany for several years as a radio reporter for CBS. Feeling increasingly uncomfortable as the Nazi press censors made it impossible for him to report objectively to his listeners in the United States, Shirer eventually left the country. The identities of many of Shirer's German sources were disguised to protect these people from retaliation by the German secret police, the Gestapo. It provided much of the material for his subsequent landmark book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

The book was published in New York by Alfred A. Knopf on June 20, 1941,[1] almost six months before Germany declared war on the United States, and simultaneously in Canada by Ryerson Press, when Canada was already at war with Germany.[1] It was "the first attempt by a big-name American journalist to shed light on what was really happening in Nazi Germany"[3] and sold almost 600,000 copies in the first year of its publication.[4] The book was widely praised by academics and critics at the time of its publication.[3] A recent literary study comparing the original diary in Shirer's literary estate with the published text revealed that Shirer made substantial changes, such as revising his early favourable impressions of Hitler. Much of the text about the period before the war (1934 to 1938) was written retroactively.[5]

In 1947, End of a Berlin Diary continued the story of the Third Reich, from July 20, 1944, to the Nuremberg Trials.

[Mike 03]

26. Excellent context.

While there may be more recent and comprehensive histories of that period, Shirer's book is invaluable as an object in its own right, authored by a contemporaneous eye witness to the incomprehensible, and for those reasons it is considered a classic, and still serves as a primary source for modern historians.

[Mike 03]

22. Kicking

Some folks still insist it's "too extreme" to bring the Third Reich (or Mussolini, Franco, Pinochet, Berlusconi, Orban, etc.) into a discussion of Trumpism. I stand with the people who strongly disagree with that view.

[Wounded Bear]

54. All authoritarians follow pretty much the same playbook...

studying any of them can be instructive. Unfortunately, it seems the actual authoritarians study them better than those of us who are trying to defend against it. The complacency of the masses favors the dictators.

[bucolic_frolic]

23. Brits do WWII right, there is also Alan Bullock's Hitler A Study In Tyranny

Also a British historian, Bullock's work focuses more on the psychological, political, and economic aspects of Hitler's reign.

[Mike 03]

40. Totally agree

Last edited Thu Feb 11, 2021, 10:35 AM - Edit history (1)

Richard J. Evans
Ian Kershaw
Adam Tooze
Richard Overy
Antony Beevor
Max Hastings

Although I do think with Ian Tolle, Christopher Browning and Timothy Snyder (and Anne Applebaum and Stephen Kotkin--at least on Stalin) we are catching up.

[lastlib]

24. Read it the summer after graduating high school.

I was leaning heavily Democratic after Nixon, but that pushed me over the top. I still have it in my library. (might have to read it again--in fact, probably should have when Shitgibbon started his rise.)

[1cheapbeemr]

33. "Democracy is not important" said Mike Lee

"Peace, prosperity and liberty are." Because white guys with some money can have those things without democracy. Saying the quiet part out loud.

[58Sunliner]

42. Is this the quote?

"Democracy isn’t the objective; liberty, peace, and prospefity are. We want the human condition to flourish. Rank democracy can thwart that." Rank democracy must be all the little people who get in the way of his power grab.

[BarbD]

34. To me, the most disturbing are those who ignored what was happening around them.

Nazism succeeded because so many people refused to feel uncomfortable with harsh reality. They were naive to think they could just wish away the hate.

It is frustrating to continually yell into the wind that we ALL must speak truth to power.

[catbyte]

36. This quote has resonated with me since 2016:

[BarbD]

41. It is chilling, but very true.

It should also be noted that it is often very lonely being the only resister in the neighborhood. This is why I am so grateful for DU.

[llmart]

43. +1

Chilling quote. Democrats should be tired of being "nice". The right made a meme out of our behavior with calling us "bleeding heart liberals". We need to show them that bleeding heart liberals can fight like hell when we're defending something we believe in.

[dalton99a]

47. +1

[liberalla]

35. Bookmarking

[kairos12]

38. Read it in the 9th grade. I always wondered what it would be like

to be like Shirer in Berlin in the 1930s. To some degree, I can appreciate his experience now.

[mrsadm]

39. But, a Republican that actually wants to read a book

is very rare indeed. And as far as ""every thinking person" goes --
I believe it was Adlai Stevenson who said, when this statement was made to him, "You have the vote of every thinking American",

"Yes, but I need a majority".

[rickford66]

44. I read it twice.

Once while in college, not for school. Then a couple years later wile in the Navy. I loaned it to one of my buddies and after a while I asked him how far he got and he said "Poland. Invading Poland". He never finished it. Everyone should read it. The seeds of fascism were recognizable in this country for many years.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

45. Yep. I listened to that audiobook 6 months ago.

I really hate to say it but we are not out of the woods yet. Not by a long shot.

Never underestimate a large group of committed fanatical goons - no matter how clownish or inept we think they appear.

The Beer Hall Putsch reads like something out of The Keystone Cops. But those fanatics continued undeterred.

A quote I read a while back keeps haunting me: “you can’t defeat fascism at the ballot box”

These people aren’t going away. The Republican Party and their big business interests nurtured these people for decades for their own political gain and now the inmates run the asylum. They live in an alternate reality.

[gordianot]

46. You could make a case for every bogeyman available.

Nazi, fascist, Anti-Christ, Conman, Fraud, Demagogue, Racist, Liar, cheat, Misogynist, narcissist, paranoid, Sadist, and be correct. I am sure that Donald Trump has more descriptors he is the perfect villain.

[Desert_Leslie]

49. The Big Lie

I find it fascinating that the House impeachment managers are featuring the phrase "The Big Lie" so prominently, as it is so commonly linked to Hitler and Goebbels (Hitler's propaganda minister). Well, if the shoe fits ....

Wikipedia has a very informative page on the use of "The Big Lie" both by Nazis AND Donald Trump.

From Wikipedia:

The phrase was also used in a report prepared during the war by the United States Office of Strategic Services [later renamed the CIA] in describing Hitler's psychological profile:

"His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it."

[Oldem]

78. We may think that the origin of the phrase is common knowledge,

and it may be. But I want the House managers to tie dump directly to Hitler. He and other strong men have borrowed Hitler's methods shamelessly. Now, Hitler should be hung around his neck like a millstone as Jon Meacham has done. I revere Meacham as an intelligent, level-headed, insightful, and moral historian. He said what Raskin and company should be saying.

[Mr. Evil]

50. It seems to me that republicans in the Senate realize that if they vote to convict DJT,

it will be the beginning of the end of their fevered dreams of a Fascist, autocratic USA.

[Wounded Bear]

52. History doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme...

There are myriad parallels between what Hitler did in 1920's and 30's Germany and what the repubs have been doing here, culminating in Trump. A thorough study of that is definitely warranted.

Too many people focus on WWII and the Holocaust, and fail to study how Hitler came to rule the country, which is at least equally important as the results manifest in the war.

[johnnyfins]

56. The problem is...

the people who really need to read and understand the book, are the very same people who would read it and dismiss it. "This book doesn't even say that Nazis were really leftists. Fake news!"

You can't reason with cult...

[triron]

57. knr

[VA_Jill]

64. I struggled through it

as a teenager (about 14-15 I think). My parents had got it as a BOM. Had to read it again in college and it scared me further. As a war baby (b. 1943) whose dad served in e navy, albeit in the other theater, I was always very aware of what went on in Europe during WWII. It was pretty extensively taught in schools &except for the Russian part--that was kind of glossed over because they had become our enemies by then). I had friends in school who were refugees and had lived in DP camps. One Polish-surnamed girl was born in Germany and had no father in evidence; we accepted that but considering the birth year I sometimes wonder now. She was very blonde.

It seems the teaching of history has fallen off and needs to be picked up again. Especially the rise of political movements. We did get quite a bit about both Fascism and Communism in my high school, thanks to some excellent teachers.

[Joinfortmill]

67. Agree 100%

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

71. K&R

[BobTheSubgenius]

72. I agree with the idea that the circumstances are different.

The modern USA is considerably better off, socially and economically (despite the massive inequities) and is not suffering the grave national indignities and hardships of the Versaille Treaty.

One could go on and on about the tremendous advantages present-day America holds over Germany in the interregnum. So...given all that....it is hugely impressive - in a dire and terrible way - that the force of will of one man was essentially all it took to run a superpower into the ditch.

The parallels to the rise of the Reich are both amazing and spine-chilling. We look back at that time and go "HOW could this have happened? Then watch it unfold yet again. Fortunately, some institutions held, thus averting that ultimate catastrophe. But just barely.

[SharonAnn]

73. I've referred people to this for several years. I'm on my third reading (read it every 25 yrs)

It is actually very readable, incredibly informative, and provides much food for thought.

[SharonAnn]

75. Also, read "The Authoritarians". It's free on the Internet. Good explanation of MAGA thinking.

Last edited Thu Feb 11, 2021, 05:16 PM - Edit history (1)

Written by Robert Altmeyer, University of Manitoba, and is based on decades of research.
https://theauthoritarians.org/options-for-getting-the-book/

John Dean used info from it in “Conservatives Without Conscience.”

[Oscarthegreat]

76. Learning from history

I don't compare myself to the brilliant John Meacham, but I've been saying since 1994 that then GOP will end up being a clone of the German Nazi party in the years leading to WW2 and the holocaust. The similarities and patterns are stunningly similar and it now seems like the acceleration toward that stage has increased and the end result is unavoidable.

it is impossible of course to do it in our system and it would never happen, but to save our country from a faith similar to that of the Third Reich, we would have had to label the current GOP as a terrorist organization and fight it just like we fight ISIS and Al Qaeda.

The next GOP leader will be much more dangerous than Trump, a singularly dumb, ignorant and incompetent tinpot would be dictator, because he will be much smarter and much more competent, and this should send chills up our collective spine.

[PlanetBev]

77. I'm reading "The Rise and Fall" right now

The parallels are bone chilling. Trump is our would-be Hitler. Hitler was not interested in daily briefings and had no use for experts. He took advantage of the financial and social instability after WWI and specialized in demonizing groups of people. Sound familiar?

What saves us is we have a strong constitution and we are not a homogeneous society like Germany of the 1930’s. Our diversity is our strength.

I’ll never again ask the question “How did the Germans let it happen?” It can happen anywhere.

[peggysue2]

80. The reason people are loathe to go there is that the standard argument is . . .

when you bring in the Hitler comparison you've lost the debate.

But in this case the Hitler/Mussolini/Strongman playbook has been followed closely, to the letter. No one needs hyperbole to see or recognize the parallels in Trump's behaviors, speeches and actions to recognize the chilling fascist message:

Believe only me. The media is the enemy of the people. Immigrants and The Other are stealing your future. I see and understand your pain and anger. The victimization of White Americans is equal to my own victimization by evil people. American Carnage that only I can fix.

And the beat goes on, the chain of lies continues, the tension and heat build and build. There's a reason Trump admires every autocrat in the world; he wants to be unshackled from rules and laws and investigations.

Trump did everything possible to tear down norms, traditions, institutions and corrupt every level of governance. All in an attempt to consolidate his own power and continue his mobster grift. January 6th was an expression of his fury over a lost election. We didn't give him what he wanted, so he tried to burn our Capitol down.

He didn't quite get the job done. But he or his kids or his acolytes will keep trying.

Which is why vigilance is necessary. This disaster is far from over.

[moondust]

82. Read it many years ago.

And have wondered how much Trump and his gang borrowed from Hitler and the Nazis. Ivana Trump told her lawyer that Donny kept a copy of Hitler's early speeches--"My New Order"--in a cabinet near his bed. Did he actually read them and how much took root?

White supremacy and demonization/scapegoating of minorities? ✔️

Brownshirts paramilitary? ✔️

Big lie? ✔️

False flag Reichstag fire in order to declare martial law and remain in power indefinitely? ✔️ (January 6)

[Nitram]

83. My biggest fear is that if Trump is acquitted a much smarter and cagier president in the future

can take the lessons learned and successfully take one our government with a fascist agenda.

[Dan]

86. I've said several time the path to understanding Trump

Is in the history of Germany in the 1930’s.

[Lunabell]

87. And Willie Geist called them cowards.

That's what they are. COWARDS!

[summer_in_TX]

90. Trump and his acolytes were itching for their own Reichstag.

They so wanted the Insurrection Act to be able to be invoked. Had they gotten their wish, I'm not sure we would be still standing as a democracy, or have the great good fortune of watching a good man in the role of president setting things to rights.

I am pretty sure a number of our friends on here badly wanted to get in the faces of the Proud Boys and other militia groups during their demonstrations in D.C. I am virtually sure our antifa activists badly wanted to confront these fascists. I read the many calls to not go and wondered if it would be heeded.

Amazingly everyone listened. And because they did, all the viciousness and violence stood completely, clearly revealed as being from Trump supporters. The attempts to smear antifa have had a hard time taking root as a result.

So many miracles in the midst of the tragedy. I am deeply thankful it wasn't much worse and that our lawmakers survived. But we are still in great peril. We need indictments in both state and federal courts wherever possible.