Were all the insurrectionists really that foolish.

[RDANGELO]

When considering the attack on the Capitol on Jan 6th, two questions have come to my mind. What did they think that they were going to accomplish, and how did they think that they were going to get away with it. If they managed to get into the chamber and force congress to declare Trump the winner, then what? Then they have what looks like a hostage situation, which rarely ends well for the hostage takers. I have a hard time believing that that many people were that foolish, especially when so many of them were cops or ex military. They had to be operating under the assumption that some kind of military or police force was going to back them up. I think that this was bigger than people know.

After the assassination of JFK, Johnson rushed thru the Warren Commission, perhaps to avoid a war with the Soviet Union with Oswald being a supposed communist who had come back from a stint in Russia. We may never know the whole story here.

[sprinkleeninow]

1. They were hopped up on a dangerous lie. eom

[RDANGELO]

2. I could believe that if it was just a handfull, not hundreds.

[sprinkleeninow]

4. I rethunk how you posited that bc enough were military and LE,

there was something covertly bigger and sinister that caused these to be emboldened in their decision to act as they did.

[greenjar_01]

32. Easier for hundreds to get swept up in bullshit than a dozen

[Funtatlaguy]

3. Follow the money of who paid to send different groups there.

Like Proud Boys and Oathkeepers.
Also check all phone records and Capitol visitor logs of every US Rep and Senator for at least two weeks prior to 1/6.

[5X]

5. They were that stupid whether they know it or not.

[Skittles]

6. it's not like people who voted for Donald Fucking Trump are known for their critical thinking skills

ya know?

[JI7]

7. They are hateful horrible people that wanted to hurt others

that enjoy seeing others get hurt.

[Irish_Dem]

8. You raise some very good questions.

You are right, the military and police had to have thought through their actions.
They are well trained and experienced. What was their end game?

It is thought that by killing Pence and other MOC, the election certification would be stopped.
Trump could declare martial law, and bring in the NG and military.

We know that Flynn and his brother who is active duty military were involved in some way.
It is possible there was a segment of the military involved.

We also know that there were MOC and the Capitol Police involved.

So it is possible their end game was to emerge as lauded patriots in the war against congress and democracy. With Trump installed as the president for life.

[wnylib]

9. I think you've summed it up pretty well.

They expected to succeed with help from the NG and that Trump would have their backs.

[Irish_Dem]

10. Yes exactly.

[mopinko]

18. us irish have a different history. we've seen more of this shit than most ppl.

i basically said the same thing below. and have before.
the end game was martial law. blood flowing at the capitol would have moved the military.

[Irish_Dem]

24. Gen. Flynn had talked for months about Trump imposing martial law.

And we later found that Gen Flynn's active duty brother was involved in refusing to send the NG in to help with the Capitol insurrection.

Yes the Irish were subjugated by the British for nearly a thousand years. Starved, mistreated, land stolen. The religion, language, customs all deemed illegal by the British. Perhaps the Irish on a DNA level have evolved to understand the manifestations of the evil men can do to each other.

[mopinko]

25. i think so. they saw at the time

the american genocide of the native americans for what it was because the same ppl did the same thing to them. same tactics. same time frame. same perps.

and of course, they all use the same tired old playbook. and if there is one thing we know, it's books.

[Irish_Dem]

27. Yes that is why we hear stories of the natural affinity of the Irish with Native American groups.

Yes same everything.

Yes we know the playbook only too well.

[mopinko]

28. i have a cousin over there

who covets my native american drum. basically the same drum as a bodhran.
i promised to swap her for a proper bodhran when we finally get to see each other in the flesh.

[Irish_Dem]

29. That is so neat.

I have cousins too in Ireland.
The live in a house near where my grandmother was born and raised.
Which is now being used a chicken coop.
Times were so hard for the Irish, that is why so many came to the US.
Boston was the closest and cheapest passage, so many settled there.

Oh I hope you can see you cousin and swap out the drums.

[mopinko]

30. yeah, my ggrandpa that came here

was a 20 yr vet of the british army. 20 yrs later and he hussled his wife and 3 kids into the belly of an ocean liner. still trying to wrap my head around that one.

have cousins on my mam's side that settled in boston. 11 came, 5 came to chi, the rest stayed behind. and apparently never spoke again. she had no idea.

funny about that cousin. she was adopted and did the dna thing in search of family. she found a couple folks on her mother's side, who wanted nothing to do w her. now she has a couple hundred cousins. she and i are more alike than any of my sisters and i. she wants to come here, and i want to go there. thinking we'll get cruise tickets and sort out which way who goes.

the genes, the genes, the genes they are acallllling.

[Irish_Dem]

33. What a fabulous story.

How exciting for you and your cousin.
When this pandemic is over you can meet up.

From glen to glen......

[mopinko]

35. i'm so looking forward to the trip.

the cruise part adds to the need to find competent help on the farm, tho the whole thing hinges there.
hoping for 3 wks, but might only get 2.
do need to get off my butt and get my irish passport, tho. i hear they have a big backlog.

found another cousin in my ggramps hometown, kinnitty. gonna stay in the castle there. hopin the haints will talk to me.

[Irish_Dem]

36. My brother and cousins got their Irish passports and it was a quick process.

But yes there is probably a back log now.

[mopinko]

40. yeah, i would have figured i could go down to the consulate

if i got backed into a corner, but...

[Irish_Dem]

42. Don't even know when travel of any sort will resume....

My brother and cousins did it all by mail....

[mopinko]

44. yeah, prolly next winter.

since i rly cant go during the growing season. she'll likely come here 1st.

[Irish_Dem]

46. She will have a great time.

[bottomofthehill]

19. I am still surprised he did not invoke Martial Law

I may start to sound like a conspiracy kook here but, that may well have been the Plan of the Brothers Flynn all along. The problem with their plan came prior to the Trump Insurrection when the former Secretaries of Defense issued their letter forcing the hand of the Military Leadership to denounce its and remain loyal to their Oath to Protect and Defend the Constitution.

[Irish_Dem]

23. Yes the Defense Sect Letter was a major wrinkle.

And forced the Joint Chiefs to make a clear statement of loyalty to the Constitution.
All of this is quite unusual of course.

Another problem was that the insurrection plan failed by seconds and minutes to kill Pence
and Nancy P. And the Congress reconvened that very evening to certify the election.
It was rumored that Pence is the one who called in the NG, not Trump. And Pence was clearly angry when he spoke at the evening session that night.

The other curious events after Biden's election win was Trump's last minute appointments to DOD, Military, CIA, etc of incompetent loyalists. Everyone wondered why Trump did this. Perhaps to sabotage Biden, but could there have been other more sinister reasons?

A conspiracy is a theory made of whole cloth, that is fabricated and not true.

Much of what we are discussing is in the public record, on video, pictures, statements, etc.
All we are doing is trying to put those puzzle pieces together in a meaningful way.
A desire to make sense of it all.

[hvn_nbr_2]

21. "emerge as lauded patriots"

They've been living in Wingnut "Patriot" Fantasyland so long that they believed their own fantasies.

They've been playing "patriot" war games, riding jeeps and pickups loaded with guns through the deserts and the woods, burying food and ammo for the coming storm, planning to overthrow the government, for many years.

They totally believe that everybody who isn't a drug dealer, pimp, prostitute, or POC ( "DDPPP" ) agrees with them. That's why they spout off their hate and conspiracy theories to any group of mostly non-DDPPP, whether in the doctor's waiting room, at the carwash, waiting in line at the pharmacy, or anywhere else they spew to people they think all agree with them.

They've been watching "patriot" movies for years, seeing the "patriots" overthrow evil lib governments and establish freedumb to universal acclaim and heroic stature, and they've seen it and fantasized it so long and so often that they were certain that the revolution would be totally successful before they finish the box of popcorn.

And so they went to D.C. with full expectation that they would invade the Capitol by noon, kill Nancy Pelosi and a bunch of other libtards soon after, have Trump installed as president-for-life by mid-afternoon, be themselves universally hailed as heroes and saviors of the republic, and be home in time for dinner, and then break out the popcorn to watch the made-for-TV movie about themselves as heroes.

[Irish_Dem]

34. We are discussing how it may have all gone down the way Trump planned.

The mob almost had Pence. And they would have killed him.
Trump declares martial law, appoints a new VP who will do his bidding.

[Turin_C3PO]

38. It wouldn't have mattered.

The role of the VP is purely ceremonial. Martial Law wouldn’t have prevented Joe from taking office.

[Irish_Dem]

39. Trump doesn't follow the rules.

Saying what he can or cannot do has not been a reliable gauge of what Trump will do.

[Silver1]

56. Just like that.

You said it really well!

[FakeNoose]

41. If they had succeeded in killing Pence (and Pelosi)

... the new Vice President would have been Mike Pompeo, or else Michael Flynn. They've all but said as much in the tweets that came out around that time.

Even though the U.S. Military (Joint Chiefs and Intelligence community) stated that they would not participate in any kind of coup to keep Chump in power - the insurrectionist idiots still believed the military was going to back them.

They also believed that Chump would become "president for life" or whatever, and they would all be pardoned. I don't think any of them thought beyond that.

[Irish_Dem]

47. Flynn had been talking about declaring marital law for months.

Flynn would have refused to open the EC votes and Trump would have declared martial law.
Flynn's brother was high level active duty officer at the Pentagon, I believe there were Trump sympathizers in the Pentagon.

[Silver1]

54. Everything you said.

And had they succeeded, everyone involved would have been rewarded. The ones who planned it with cabinet positions, government posts for the ones who carried it out, and hero status for the mob that came along.

[Irish_Dem]

55. It seems to be to be the logical explanation for all the known facts.

[Silver1]

59. To you and a lot of others too.

It's absolutely chilling. I look forward to the results of the investigations coming up.

[Progressive Jones]

58. Not all LE and mliitary are the sharpest tools in the box. nt

[Irish_Dem]

61. But anyone who has served knows what happens to the losing side.

They simply didn't think they were going to lose.
That is the only explanation that makes sense to those who know the military.

[Irish_Dem]

62. Parsimony- the simplest explanation that fits all the facts.

There is only one theory that simply explains the facts.

[Progressive Jones]

67. Yes, they simply didn't think they were going to lose, because

they're simply dumb asses.

Even those with LE and/or military training are either average, above average, or below average in intelligence.
This crowd fell way below average.

Apparently, they buy into that archaic, quaint, overly romanticized notion that citizens showing up at the Capitol with torches and pitchforks, and stomp their feet and demand that the government appeases them, is how things actually work.
That's not how it works.

They were murderous scum who wanted to kill elected US officials. The insurgents all deserved to leave that building
in bags.

[Irish_Dem]

68. They are not all stupid, some of them are very smart which makes them more dangerous.

[Progressive Jones]

71. In that case they're mentally defective. Either way, very shitty, undesirable citizens. nt

[Irish_Dem]

72. Yes they are sociopaths and love violence. So they are dangerous.

[Kablooie]

11. I expect they trusted Trump had a full plan ready.

They believed that he played 4 dimensional chess and had a master plan worked out.
That's what they were told all the time.
They didn't have to know what it was because they were used to taking orders without knowing the big picture.

Sure it's stupid to believe that but most Repiblicans still believe it.

[Irish_Dem]

48. I think Trump did have a plan in place. All those curious last minute replacements to major

departments, CIA, Pentagon, DOD, etc.

Flynn taking for weeks about martial law.
I think it was planned out right after the election.

[Trueblue Texan]

12. I think Irish_Dem's got it...

...and they figured Trump would cover their asses, that's why they were so emboldened to put pictures of themselves breaking the law out on the internet for God and the world to see. They believed Trump had them covered. When you're gonna risk it all, it really should be for a good reason and not for a lie and a fraud, I always say.

[WestIndianArchie]

13. Bingo!!!

[Layzeebeaver]

14. Yes they were all that foolish. And in addition...

They are:

- gullible enough to believe anything Trump said including the "Big Lie"
- stupid enough to document the entire fiasco on social media - thereby incriminating only themselves
- old enough to know better, but too stupid to stop themselves
- clueless about the breath and depth of justice department resources and expertise that would be levelled at them
- only now realising the depth of stupid they dived down into


The next time this shit looks like it's going to happen again, the government needs to publicly announce that there are 100's of jail cells ready and waiting - and because of the extent of the government's domestic intelligence gathering, they already know who these people are!

We have a representative democracy because we do not want an insurrection every 4 years!

These idiots need to understand what voting means in a democratic society and either make the effort to participate constructively or stay home (or remain in jail- lol) and shut the fuck up!!

Deplorable's you say? Oooohhhh Yes!

Now, to be clear... If any of these people actually do have psychological issues then let that be a factor in their judicial process - but not an excuse.

Sorry, that was more of a rant than I think I have ever written.

[Walleye]

15. Didn't Trump say in his speech that the military and law-enforcement might be with the insurrection?

[Irish_Dem]

49. And he was correct in that a significant number of the mob contained LE and military.

The military consists of quite a few white supremacy types.

[Walleye]

64. Yeah that's a big problem we have to deal with

[mopinko]

16. they thought they would trigger martial law.

maybe the twits didnt see the end game, but flynn, stone, et al did.
they thought their god king would pardon them all once he was back on the throne.

[HAB911]

17. They assumed Trump would hail them as hero patriots

and give them medals

[bottomofthehill]

20. They believed they would be successful

And the God King Ruler would reward them.

[lagomorph777]

22. They planned to kill the Congress, not take them hostage.

Then their Dear Leader would assume total power and give them all cushy government jobs.

[Irish_Dem]

50. Their rag tag militias would be given high government status.

[dawg]

26. Yes, they were that stupid ...

yes, they still are, and ...

yes, there's a shit ton more of them than just the ones who stormed the Capitol.

[maxrandb]

31. You could simplify this by simply saying

How did Hitler become Fuhrer of Germany despite never winning a majority.

I'm also curious about all the calls with Putin that we never got a read out on. I'm sure Putin had some ideas for how an authoritarian gets cemented in power, and Donnie Dipshit called that prick more often than I called my first High School sweetheart.

"No Vladimir, you hang up first..."

[Irish_Dem]

51. Yes it could have easily come to that.

We came very close to the Hitler scenario.
And yes Putin advising every step of the way.

[genxlib]

37. There is a 400 year quote that sums it up nicely

The quote is this

Treason doth never prosper, what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it Treason.

They thought they were going to be successful so they had no fear of the person who would be left in charge.

[Irish_Dem]

52. Exactly. That is the only logical conclusion to explain all the facts.

[peggysue2]

43. I think this is the money line

They had to be operating under the assumption that some kind of military or police force was going to back them up.

I suspect many of them expected just that. Which is why the Capitol & DC police were immediately turned into traitors; they were suppose to be on the insurrectionists' side. The others? Possibly they expected a Left opposition group to increase the mayhem thereby giving Trump the ability to declare martial law. After that the theory was that the entire election would be flipped to a legislative vote where Trump would be deemed the winner.

Sound crazy and convoluted? Absolutely. But it was what many True Believers were suggesting.

Right now many of the Qanons are waiting for a vindication on March 4th, the day Trump presumably will be legitimately inaugurated as the 16th POTUS. According to Sovereign Citizen mythology.

I'm waiting for a repeat of the Great Disappointment. And, of course, the next target date because Doomsday cults never give up; they simply adjust the calendar.

[Irish_Dem]

53. Flynn and his brother in the Pentagon had some military backing.

I suspect Flynn had assembled a faction in the military.
Flynn was the one talking about marital law all the time.

[peggysue2]

66. My husband read the other day that there was an armed contingent outside DC

Presumably, they were waiting for the high-sign to come into the city once the Capitol Bldg was secured. Not sure whether that's just more disinformation and/or myth-making but the scenario detail is certainly scary.

And yes, Flynn was all in for the martial law stuff, along with Mr Pillow guy and all the other hangers-on. Flynn's brother did a lot of awkward two-stepping after the failed attempt. Leaves me wondering what exactly he had in mind. The fact that the insurrectionists were taking selfies, few hiding their faces would lead me to believe they thought the coup would be successful, that there would be no repercussions or accountability.

We dodged a bullet aimed directly at the heart & head of the country. My suspicion? It's not over yet.

[treestar]

70. Watching some of the clips of the insurrection

I saw at one point a long contingent of black suited police, maybe the CP, or maybe NG? With shields and as they moved through the crowd, shouts of "join us!"

So maybe they thought it would be like the fall of the USSR where the soldiers stopped and joined the protestors.

[leftyladyfrommo]

45. And they used their phones!

There are cameras all over the capitol and many didn't bother to disguise themselves at all.

One thing the FBI is really good at is finding people and they made it so easy and left a whole trail of incriminating evidence behind themselves.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. What did they think would happen after martial law?

This is what would have happened. It would have made Canada great.


Capital would flee. Large intelligence- based corporations like Microsoft and google would move to Canada.
There would be general strikes from sympathetic unions like the Teamsters, AFT and NEA.
Employees of the bureaucracy that make the country go could easily anonymously sabotage the works
The equities markets would tank
Widespread civil disobedience
Global chaos

[bullwinkle428]

60. For fans of the show "South Park" : UNDERPANTS GNOME THEORY! The premise...

Step 1) Collect underpants
Step 2) Haven't figured out yet
Step 3) PROFIT!!!!

Translating to the insurrectionists...

Step 1) Storm and pillage the U.S. Capitol
Step 2) Haven't figured out yet
Step 3) TRUMP PRESIDENT FOR LIFE!!!

[Generic Brad]

63. I suspect we'll find out Trump personally asked some of them to do it

He hosted Proud Boys leaders in the Oval Office a few weeks earlier. That makes me think he encouraged them with more than a wink and a nod.

[Irish_Dem]

65. Yes I hope this comes out in open court.

[WarGamer]

69. Nah

Just a few hundred violent inbreds looking to cause mayhem.

There was no "actual" coup attempt. Look at Myanmar and Turkey a decade back to see what a coup attempt looks like.

[muriel_volestrangler]

73. They wouldn't have been able to force Congress to declare Trump the winner

They might have been able to disrupt it so the formal certification was abandoned, but that wouldn't have made Trump the "winner". If it had got more violent, he might have declared martial law, as suggested above, and then he might have claimed he was the winner. But no-one important (the military, the supreme court, other countries) would say he was the winner; at most, some might say he was "caretaker president" until another formal collation of the state electoral college numbers was done.

But even if they'd killed some of Congress or Pence, the rest would be held to have the authority, wherever they subsequently met (and the Secret Service and Capitol Police would have fought their way out with Congress members).