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Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 01:57 PM Mar 2021

When I was a child...

People would sometimes come up to my mother and ask her if she was the "Nanny" of her own children. While young, we were all towheaded and had a much lighter skin hue. I've spoken of this before on DU.

My mother was darker than Meghan, Duchess of Sussex.

Later, when I was engaged, my future husband's mother - a manipulative perpetual victim - wondered what our kids would look like. Even bothered by the fact any children could have brown eyes.

My own eyes are so dark brown they look black. A co-worker once asked to touch my hair. I gave her a look - because, seriously? I let her though. I was curious about her reaction. She said it was soft. Said she was surprised because it looked all wiry and coarse. Figures. My skin is white.

As a couple, we have chosen to live around and connect primarily with my family. For obvious reasons. My husband and I have managed to limit our contact with his family. His decision as well as mine.

I fully believe there was speculation from within the royal family about the skin hue of Harry and Meghan's children.

I know it happens.

It cuts deeper than a lot of people can realize. It's racism, yes - but saying it is doesn't really tell the story.

That speculation is a sign of rejection. Not just of you but any future children, grandchildren, etc.. It hits all the discordant notes that form white supremacy. And they are all discordant notes.

That you're less, inferior, and not even really human. As everything known about humans is only applied to white people under the white supremacy ideology. Same with white privilege - everything (socially/culturally/economically/even medicine) based on white skin means how things shape/affect those without white skin are ignored. That you aren't even a consideration if you don't have white skin.

That white is better than you and always will be. That acceptance only comes, and even then given only provisionally, based on the color of your skin. Even still, you know you'll be mocked and scorned behind your back. Never good enough. Never equal. Never really "one of them". You know your children will be treated differently.

And this kills you inside. Not the lack of the inclusion so much as to the reasons why. It's soul crushing.

I hated the people who asked my mother if she was my Nanny. They treated a woman I worshiped as less. They smiled glowingly at me - at first. They looked at me differently once my mother told them in no uncertain terms that she was not the Nanny and gave them the - fuck you for entertaining the thought - look she did so well. Then they saw me as less as well. You could see the change play across their face.

I am who I am today because of my mother. For good or for ill, she was my primary influence, shaping how I see the world - and people. I didn't always agree with her, and still don't, but her voice is always there.


Meghan Markle chose to protect her children. To protect herself and her children. Her husband has done the same. To protect his family.

Because that's what you do when someone wonders what "color" your children will be. Because if it matters to them they will make for damn sure it becomes an issue for your children. They have let you know exactly what they think of you and exactly how they will treat your children.


This isn't really about the monarchy. The UK monarchy can die out or not, I don't care.


It's about the damage racism causes. It's about the harm and the pain it causes. It's about understanding precisely why you would keep your children away from such a toxic environment.

Thanks for listening.




106 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
When I was a child... (Original Post) Solly Mack Mar 2021 OP
Thank you for that heartfelt explanation. Your mother-in-law's type of ignorance, Atticus Mar 2021 #1
Solly Mack, this is very moving and movingly written. I'm white, Oldem Mar 2021 #2
I go through life with white skin and people see that first Solly Mack Mar 2021 #46
I'm not able to make a rec yet. lpbk2713 Mar 2021 #3
Thank you for posting; and I am so sorry for the racism and pain you experienced. lucca18 Mar 2021 #4
Kicking and reccing. I just wish that I could wave a magic wand, and make all the pain and niyad Mar 2021 #5
Thanks for sharing this hurtful personal story. It reminds me that I have family records abqtommy Mar 2021 #6
I live in the Flathead! Would be ecstatic to hear more Maru Kitteh Mar 2021 #19
My great-great-grandmother and her husband lived in Kalispell. That's where my abqtommy Mar 2021 #27
It's a big world and a small world, all at the same time. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #44
Yes, it's a big world for big hurts and a small world for small hurts and some of us are abqtommy Mar 2021 #52
I sometimes despair and I sometimes say "Fuck'em". Solly Mack Mar 2021 #64
Yes. It's awfully good to make your acquaintance. abqtommy Mar 2021 #68
Thank you Solly Mack! alwaysinasnit Mar 2021 #7
Multigrain people get extra points from me. multigraincracker Mar 2021 #8
Multigrain people! lol I just say I'm a Heinz 57. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #42
I like that! "Multigrain people" - so much more delicious and flavorful than white bread! calimary Mar 2021 #47
Yep, pure bred dogs are a result of multigraincracker Mar 2021 #65
We've ALWAYS had good luck with mutts. calimary Mar 2021 #72
We love our multigraincracker Mar 2021 #73
LOL, I can relate... lambchopp59 Mar 2021 #94
My stepdaughter, who is half Irish, half Italian Mr.Bill Mar 2021 #9
We always ask, "What do you need?" (after any medical thing, even birth). Maybe one day that will be Solly Mack Mar 2021 #40
Today that baby is 34 years old and Mr.Bill Mar 2021 #51
My wife heard a similar remark from my mother-in-law. NNadir Mar 2021 #10
I'm sorry your wife had to be on the receiving end of that comment. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #38
We just rolled our eyes. Frankly she wasn't the worst racist in either of our families. NNadir Mar 2021 #63
Thank you for the excellent post. I have an ethnic heritage that led to decades of crap. I will Evolve Dammit Mar 2021 #11
We are a multi-ethnic family as well. A true melting pot of flavorful stew. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #37
I never envisioned it to be what the torn-off bandaid of the last 4 years has revealed. Evolve Dammit Mar 2021 #53
The thing is, the Trump years didn't bring any surprises as far as racism is concerned. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #55
That is true. It just was given permission to come forward and the flames fanned. A disgrace IMHO. Evolve Dammit Mar 2021 #78
Agreed. Promoted, encouraged, and praised. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #80
years ago i saw a young woman on tv (probably in her 20s) orleans Mar 2021 #54
Rainbows are beautiful. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #57
lol. thanks for the chuckle! nt orleans Mar 2021 #59
lol. thanks for the chuckle! nt orleans Mar 2021 #60
Thank you, my dear Solly Mack, for your bedrock post. CaliforniaPeggy Mar 2021 #12
Thank you! MineralMan Mar 2021 #13
There is always homegirl Mar 2021 #14
Wondering if a child will have red hair isn't the same as wondering if they'll be black or white Solly Mack Mar 2021 #36
Best explanation that I have seen or heard. h2ebits Mar 2021 #15
I'm white because my skin is white and that's what people first see. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #35
Thank you Solly Mack, great post. Your wise words ring with truth from personal experience. c-rational Mar 2021 #16
Racism is why I am the only sibling living in the Caribbean malaise Mar 2021 #17
We kept to our own family for the most part while growing up. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #32
My MIL's first words about me: "What is she?" Maru Kitteh Mar 2021 #18
I'm sorry that happened to you. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #28
Solly, thank you for sharing your experience and feelings. TygrBright Mar 2021 #20
KnR. Thanks for sharing your experience with us all. And you're spot on, it's the damage and pain iluvtennis Mar 2021 #21
Thank you for such a comprehensive and eye-opening view that you have shared with us. secondwind Mar 2021 #22
I agree with you on all points. But , wouldn't you say that mixed race people are demigoddess Mar 2021 #23
I wouldn't say that, no. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #26
I have to agree with you, on a personal level of what I find attractive. Combining Maraya1969 Mar 2021 #76
I wish I could give this post 100 recs! Tanuki Mar 2021 #24
I love this!! KT2000 Mar 2021 #25
That's exactly what happened and in an instant too. Like a blow across the face. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #86
Thanks Solly Mack. spanone Mar 2021 #29
I was born in Dallas in 1944. Mickju Mar 2021 #30
Thanks for sharing and I can relate 100%! IrishAfricanAmerican Mar 2021 #31
I look forward to the day when speculation about skin color Warpy Mar 2021 #33
Margaret Cho was doing a routine one night when she said a person asked her how to Solly Mack Mar 2021 #77
That kind of question has never occurred to me Warpy Mar 2021 #84
Best advice I was ever given was to shut up and listen. That was over 50 years ago. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #85
Interesting, that incident. soldierant Mar 2021 #87
You were hoping to learn something new but not everyone has a good motive. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #88
I was - and I did - I learned I was better off as a human being without soldierant Mar 2021 #103
But because you opened yourself up to a new experience, you learned something even better. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #104
Thank you. I'm still trying. soldierant Mar 2021 #106
When my wife was in high school, she was either dating or friends with a boy of Italian descent. BobTheSubgenius Mar 2021 #34
Goodness. Family drama abounds in my own family. But that's a story for a time that will Solly Mack Mar 2021 #48
Thank you for this, Solly Mack Hekate Mar 2021 #39
Thank you for sharing your story so eloquently PatSeg Mar 2021 #41
❤ nt littlemissmartypants Mar 2021 #43
Thank you for opening up with your very personal truths. denvine Mar 2021 #45
Well said and on the money. Thank You. Magoo48 Mar 2021 #49
The worst type of racism comes from people who don't think they are. Aussie105 Mar 2021 #50
Thank You kooth Mar 2021 #56
It should go without saying... Behind the Aegis Mar 2021 #58
True. The labels may change but the fear and ignorance seems to cling tightly. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #61
Thank you for writing. Joinfortmill Mar 2021 #62
K&R JohnnyRingo Mar 2021 #66
Mine got thinner, noticeably so, on one side. I found that annoying. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #69
Strength and love and K&R. WhiskeyGrinder Mar 2021 #67
Right on, Solly Mack, right on! MLAA Mar 2021 #70
K & R chowder66 Mar 2021 #71
That was a great post Solly samplegirl Mar 2021 #74
How horrible for your sister and you! Solly Mack Mar 2021 #75
I just have say this samplegirl Mar 2021 #82
A great post! yellerpup Mar 2021 #79
Thanks for sharing this cate94 Mar 2021 #81
Thank you seta1950 Mar 2021 #83
Thank you for posting this MustLoveBeagles Mar 2021 #89
I hope Meghan and Harry do better over here and eventually the peeps on the other side of the pond TigressDem Mar 2021 #90
aye aye Roc2020 Mar 2021 #91
I'm white and can't believe it took me 50:years to see how stupid most whites are lostnfound Mar 2021 #92
Great post! Solly Mack Mar 2021 #101
K & R mountain grammy Mar 2021 #93
WHY do people feel entitled to ask stupid questions??? Moosepoop Mar 2021 #95
Because they hold one idea of the world and they think they're being nice, not stupid. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #100
What a poignant post flibbitygiblets Mar 2021 #96
Sadly, there are so many stories out there with mine being one of the minor ones. Solly Mack Mar 2021 #102
i don't care if it was his father or his brother (convinced it's one or the other), barbtries Mar 2021 #97
Thank you Wild blueberry Mar 2021 #98
Wonderful post, sorry that you and your mother had to endure that kind of behavior. greatauntoftriplets Mar 2021 #99
Heard former Sen. Carl Levin yesterday... Kid Berwyn Mar 2021 #105

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
1. Thank you for that heartfelt explanation. Your mother-in-law's type of ignorance,
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 02:06 PM
Mar 2021

unfortunately, is still with us.

Posts like yours educate all of us, whatever color our eyes happen to be.

Oldem

(833 posts)
2. Solly Mack, this is very moving and movingly written. I'm white,
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 02:06 PM
Mar 2021

so I can't experience your pain. But you take me close to it. You hit every note in what is evil about racism and racists, and you hit them all with feeling. I have tears in my eyes reading this. God bless you.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
46. I go through life with white skin and people see that first
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:42 PM
Mar 2021

and act accordingly. I am white. I get the advantage of white privilege no matter what my ancestors looked like. I don't identify as white on official documents though. I choose the option of "Other". Not pleased with that option.

I have experienced life differently than most white people but because people see my skin first, white people assume I'm one of them.

Has meant a lot of white people over the years have felt free to say some truly horrible crap in my hearing because they saw white skin and thought I'd agree.

They learn otherwise with a quickness.

niyad

(113,383 posts)
5. Kicking and reccing. I just wish that I could wave a magic wand, and make all the pain and
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 02:34 PM
Mar 2021

Anguish and sorrow caused by the insanity of racism just disappear. I wish I knew what it would take.

abqtommy

(14,118 posts)
6. Thanks for sharing this hurtful personal story. It reminds me that I have family records
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 02:42 PM
Mar 2021

that tell me that my maternal great-great-grandmother came from Belgium to Canada
then on to The Flathead Valley of Montana. She was a fair-skinned, fair haired
unmarried female traveling with friends and she attracted a LOT of interest. The
Indigenous people of the area fell under her spell and were always around her, even
after she married my great-great-grandpa. So my story is more pleasant than yours.
(She lived to be 100 and I met her when I was a child. She was a wonderful person.)

But I agree that "racism"*/ethnic bigotry is another one of those universal human traits that we'd all be better off without.

* I put "racism" in quotes since science tells us that there is only one race and that's the
Human Race. We may be many ethnic groups but we're only one race...

abqtommy

(14,118 posts)
27. My great-great-grandmother and her husband lived in Kalispell. That's where my
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:00 PM
Mar 2021

grandmother and my mother were born too. My Dad was born near Custer, in Montana
and while I wasn't born in Montana I've lived there as boy and man. I enjoy history and
especially the family kind! Now all Montana needs is people to match the mountains!

Oh yeah, my Mom's Dad was born in Montana but his parents moved from Canada to
The Flathead. I always think of it as home. My Dad's parent's were ethnic Brit and Dutch
and that explains why everybody in the world is related!

abqtommy

(14,118 posts)
52. Yes, it's a big world for big hurts and a small world for small hurts and some of us are
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:55 PM
Mar 2021

human but I'm not sure about the rest. There is a cure for all this ethnic bigotry. It's
unfortunate that the cure is in the human heart and the human mind.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
64. I sometimes despair and I sometimes say "Fuck'em".
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 05:22 PM
Mar 2021

Sadly, even the racists are human. Truly bad humans.

I saw the photos of the parents encouraging their children to burn masks and the phrase generational ignorance came to mind.

It saddened me. Lot of fear and ignorance wrapped up in racism.

To teach children to take joy in ignorance, to offer ignorance up as a symbol of freedom - that photo is absolutely no different than a parent dressing their child in a klan robe and snapping a photo.

Fear and ignorance is a deadly combination.

multigraincracker

(32,690 posts)
8. Multigrain people get extra points from me.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 02:57 PM
Mar 2021

Nothing more boring than white bread.

Thanks for the insights that most never get to see.

calimary

(81,323 posts)
47. I like that! "Multigrain people" - so much more delicious and flavorful than white bread!
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:43 PM
Mar 2021

Less processed, and better and healthier for you, too.

Variety in the gene pool tends to be an element of strengthening and resilience, from what I learned in science class.

calimary

(81,323 posts)
72. We've ALWAYS had good luck with mutts.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 06:45 PM
Mar 2021

We had one pure-bred dog - it was nuts and almost uncontrollable.

I had a little German Schnauzer when I was a kid. Pure bred - blind as a bat - from birth.


Mutts love you more, methinks.

lambchopp59

(2,809 posts)
94. LOL, I can relate...
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 11:45 AM
Mar 2021

My mother's side was white-bred as it gets and cringingly racist. I utilize past tense because the only surviving progeny have succumbed completely to RWNJ BS, the only one I'd attempted to rekindle ties with because we'd played together as kids when visiting their Missouri home de-friended me on facebook 12 years ago when I requested he cease putting racist anti-Obama memes on the Facebook. Directly after, I got massively attacked by RWNJ's everywhere, de-activated my profile never to return. The few others I've had the displeasure to meet are the most narrow-minded MF's...
The native american Muskogee slice of my father's lineage blessed me with easily activated melanin in summer. Many of his side of the family, the only ones I have ties to, are married into Hispanic families.
Funny part is, in summer when my skin gets darker, people I don't know start conversations in Spanish with me. I can only cripple along with my Spanglish.

Mr.Bill

(24,303 posts)
9. My stepdaughter, who is half Irish, half Italian
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 02:57 PM
Mar 2021

married a man from Iran. When she gave birth to her first child, a boy, her Irish grandmother when told about the birth said "How dark is he?" Those were her first words.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
40. We always ask, "What do you need?" (after any medical thing, even birth). Maybe one day that will be
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:30 PM
Mar 2021

all that matters.

That mother and child are doing well is what matters. If the family needs anything is what matters.

Mr.Bill

(24,303 posts)
51. Today that baby is 34 years old and
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:55 PM
Mar 2021

mom is still married to dad. They both have successful careers and the 34 year old owns his own business. They're asking me what I need.

NNadir

(33,528 posts)
10. My wife heard a similar remark from my mother-in-law.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:06 PM
Mar 2021

My brother-in-law is from South America and is part Native American (Incan). He's of a darker hue.

My mother in law, who despite many representations of having "not a racist bone in her body" once sighed to my wife about my niece, "I guess the children are all going to be dark."

My niece has grown up to be an outstanding beauty.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
38. I'm sorry your wife had to be on the receiving end of that comment.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:27 PM
Mar 2021

My family goes from light to dark and stops at all points in between. We are different and the same - family.

NNadir

(33,528 posts)
63. We just rolled our eyes. Frankly she wasn't the worst racist in either of our families.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 05:13 PM
Mar 2021

I remember the first Jewish wedding I went to in my extended family.

It wasn't pretty.

It was funny, because the kid getting married was the son of the first guy in our family to marry a Puerto Rican.

Come to think of it - I never met the bastard - but I'm told that my grandfather once slapped one of my aunts for "talking to an Italian Boy." My sons' genetic heritage is 1/4 Italian.

Come to think of it, my wife's Grandfather almost refused to come to my mother-in-law's wedding because she was marrying an Italian - full blooded, 1st generation.

The more we marry each other, the more peace we'll have. I have to hand it to Harry Windsor. He was born a "Prince," but in leaving his "Princely" life behind he actually became a Prince.

Except for him, I have very little respect for "royalty."

Evolve Dammit

(16,743 posts)
11. Thank you for the excellent post. I have an ethnic heritage that led to decades of crap. I will
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:06 PM
Mar 2021

never understand the perceived superiority of people and their belief in inherent permission to minimize/ marginalize/ neglect/ abuse/ ridicule/ shun/ persecute those who are different for whatever reason. Seems so bizarre and malicious. Certainly not "Christian" if you believe in that.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
37. We are a multi-ethnic family as well. A true melting pot of flavorful stew.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:25 PM
Mar 2021

I wouldn't trade that for the world.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
55. The thing is, the Trump years didn't bring any surprises as far as racism is concerned.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 05:01 PM
Mar 2021

Not for everyone anyway. It's the same tune I've heard all my life. The singers change is all. Sadly.

Like being poor, all times are hard times.




orleans

(34,061 posts)
54. years ago i saw a young woman on tv (probably in her 20s)
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 05:01 PM
Mar 2021

the topic was race related, perhaps about prejudice. anyway she was talking about all the different ethnicities that were part of her and her family, listing them off ("we're part ___, and ___, and ___," etc. there were a lot and she was happy and proud of all of them)

she ended by smiling and saying: "i am a rainbow!"

it was a beautiful & amazing moment.

(i don't recall if she was being interviewed on a talk show or a newsy segment or what the occasion was but it was outstanding)

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
57. Rainbows are beautiful.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 05:04 PM
Mar 2021

Lovely story!


We're still more like a savory stew. Downhome and best served with cornbread.

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,641 posts)
12. Thank you, my dear Solly Mack, for your bedrock post.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:07 PM
Mar 2021

You have looked with unflinching eyes at your own history and have written this compelling post as a result.

It's superb and heartbreaking all at once.

homegirl

(1,429 posts)
14. There is always
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:13 PM
Mar 2021

speculation before the birth of a child.

In my family the question was always- red head or not.
I shared a good long laugh with an African American friend when she complained about straightening her hair. I responded with-"they have us both- I complain about curling mine and you complain about straightening yours."



Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
36. Wondering if a child will have red hair isn't the same as wondering if they'll be black or white
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:23 PM
Mar 2021

"looking".

But I take your meaning.

h2ebits

(644 posts)
15. Best explanation that I have seen or heard.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:14 PM
Mar 2021

Thank you! You have expressed the essence of racism that many people do not grasp or understand about themselves. I am white and your words will help me to explain to other people (and, yes, I have had discussions) as to why I believe that we are all racists and need to work on ourselves and our thoughts and beliefs that have been inculcated through the years as to what is acceptable.

Sadly, we all need to review our positions on all of the -isms that exist to the detriment of us all.

I am not only listening to your words; I actually hear them. Thank you for sharing so much of yourself. Would you mind if I share your thoughts elsewhere?

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
35. I'm white because my skin is white and that's what people first see.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:22 PM
Mar 2021

I'm treated as white. I've gone through life as white. I identify as "Other" but even that's not accurate or positive sounding. Kind of insulting.

I'll never understand just what my mother felt at those times because when not with her, I was seen as nothing but white.

I understood that even then.

I'm not lecturing. I'm sorry if it sounds that way. I only wanted to point out how even with my understanding as a child, I still knew that the racism experienced was still experienced differently by myself and my mother. We felt different things as well as the same things.

You can share my words.

Thank you for your kind words.

malaise

(269,065 posts)
17. Racism is why I am the only sibling living in the Caribbean
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:22 PM
Mar 2021

This is not to say that there is no racism here but I have always been more comfortable and happy living among people who look like me.

I experienced racism in both the US and England. I didn't care whether they accepted me or not. I simply didn't accept them and left.

I have siblings, nieces, nephews, grands and cousins who are facing reality. Many of them chose to ignore it for way too long.

The sad truth is that until there is a new world order that finally outlaws racism (with severe penalties), all change will be superficial.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
32. We kept to our own family for the most part while growing up.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:14 PM
Mar 2021

That came with its own kind of misery (like many families) but you could always find people who shared a common bond. We run the gamut from creamy white to dark leather and everything in between. So individually we look like a whole lot of people to outsiders, but together, we know we're simply a family with a wide-ranging ethnicity.

I have never had trouble telling people what I thought, so I am able to dispense with those I don't want in my life. More so as an adult than as a child.

Maru Kitteh

(28,341 posts)
18. My MIL's first words about me: "What is she?"
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:26 PM
Mar 2021

I so wish I had time to type more, but you get the idea. Perhaps I'll be able to expand more later.




Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
28. I'm sorry that happened to you.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:02 PM
Mar 2021


People say the most hurtful of things and it doesn't even register with them how painful - and stupid - it is what they say.

That's not an excuse for them. It is because of how they do think that they can say those things without one thought to what it says about them.

TygrBright

(20,762 posts)
20. Solly, thank you for sharing your experience and feelings.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:38 PM
Mar 2021

The ONLY way we're going to kick racism out of our culture is by not just fighting it in the courts and the economy and the institutional settings that perpetuate it, but by focusing on our common humanity and fighting against the denial of that humanity and the gradations of "less human".

I remember my stepfather telling me, back in the 1960s, that the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act would be "enough" to change racism in America. Because it's easier to change peoples' thinking by changing their behavior, than to change their behavior by changing their thinking. This is, to some degree, technically accurate, in that the legal and institutional fixes are actually easier. And they do have some slow effect in shaping behavior patterns which, yes, do somewhat influence some peoples' thinking to some degree.

But NO, it is not enough. It never has been. Until we consciously and passionately make EVERY human being fully human in the eyes of every other human, the inequity and the suffering this stupidity produces will continue.

Stories like yours are painful to read and I imagine it's painful for you to put it all in words for an audience of comparative strangers. But this is a human story of how denying the full humanity of a child affected a real person and a real family. That has a lot of power.

gratefully,
Bright

iluvtennis

(19,863 posts)
21. KnR. Thanks for sharing your experience with us all. And you're spot on, it's the damage and pain
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:44 PM
Mar 2021

that racism casues.

secondwind

(16,903 posts)
22. Thank you for such a comprehensive and eye-opening view that you have shared with us.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:47 PM
Mar 2021

You made it easy to feel what you felt, and see things as you did. 💗

demigoddess

(6,641 posts)
23. I agree with you on all points. But , wouldn't you say that mixed race people are
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:47 PM
Mar 2021

more beautiful than whites. I think jealousy is a big part of the racism.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
26. I wouldn't say that, no.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:57 PM
Mar 2021

I would say that there is beauty in all of humanity. Every size, shape, and hue.

Maraya1969

(22,484 posts)
76. I have to agree with you, on a personal level of what I find attractive. Combining
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 07:26 PM
Mar 2021

different races has a softening effect on the physical appearance in my opinion. That includes pasty white people like me. I never had kids but I used to think that if I had them with a black man they would be a nice tan.



Do you remember Mike and Molly with Melissa McCarthy? They were talking about getting in vitro or something like that where you can potentially choose how your baby would look, (?) Vince; Molly's stepfather came in with a roll of paint swatches to help pick out the baby's skin tone! It was actually hysterical - He suggested a type of caramel color if I remember correctly.

KT2000

(20,584 posts)
25. I love this!!
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 03:56 PM
Mar 2021

You told us so much in this post. As a child you experienced the mechanism of racism by witnessing someone seeing you and "one of us" and in an instant becoming the "other." Manifestations of racism start there. Thank you for your post.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
86. That's exactly what happened and in an instant too. Like a blow across the face.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 10:23 PM
Mar 2021

Thank you for seeing that. How it plays out.

Mickju

(1,803 posts)
30. I was born in Dallas in 1944.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:07 PM
Mar 2021

I went to segregated schools until I went to college in Rochester, NY. There had been race riots in Rochester before I went there. But the school was integrated and I think always had been. The black students were some of the brightest and most talented students and I was thrilled to have them as friends. It breaks my heart that we are still going through this bullshit more than 50 years later.

Warpy

(111,282 posts)
33. I look forward to the day when speculation about skin color
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:15 PM
Mar 2021

will be no more hurtful than speculating about hair color or whether the kid resembles Uncle Harry or Grandma Martha, just like any other physical trait. I think it's going to take us a long time to get there, the wounds of slavery are barely scabbed over.

Portugal abolished slavery within its borders in 1761, although Portuguese seafarers were heavily involved in the slave trade to the various colonies. At the time they abolished slavery within their borders, Portugal was 10% sub Saharan African. They are very mixed now and while they do have white supremacists, their number is dwindling. It can be done, but it was delayed in the US by the 100 year fiction of "separate but equal," which was anything but.

I don't know if the speculation about the color of her kids was mean spirited or not. It didn't matter, since someone who has been on the wrong side of a social hierarchy based on skin color and continental origin would find it so.

I think they're well away from the UK gutter press, which is considerably more savage than our own.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
77. Margaret Cho was doing a routine one night when she said a person asked her how to
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 07:30 PM
Mar 2021

tell the difference between people from Korea, China, and Japan.

Cho was like "Why does that matter?" - going on to say Why? Were they planning something that required them to know the difference?

The audience laughed but...

Some would see that question as innocent but because of racism, Cho couldn't afford to see it that way. She turned it into a joke, of sorts, but the seriousness of the concern was there.

Because of racism, people have had to adjust their world view accordingly. They have to adjust, period. It overshadows everything.

The longer America takes to get to a reckoning of its past, such as "separate but equal", the longer it will take to move into a more perfect union, I agree.







Warpy

(111,282 posts)
84. That kind of question has never occurred to me
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 10:00 PM
Mar 2021

since most people will tell you what you want to know about them if you shut up long enough.

While there are massive cultural differences in the 3 ethnic groups the questioner named, most immigrants are smart enough to realize people from different continents are going to be clueless about them and they cut us enough slack. In addition, there are enough ethnic minorities in most nations that country of origin doesn't tell you a hell of a lot, so Margaret Cho had a point, there.

I'll just add that the best policy is to STFU and listen.

Separate but unequal damaged this country in ways a lot of people don't think about. Separate but uneaqual lasted 100 years. It will likely take that long to overcome much of it.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
85. Best advice I was ever given was to shut up and listen. That was over 50 years ago.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 10:14 PM
Mar 2021

Still solid advice. People could learn a lot just by closing their mouths. I have to remind myself of that from time to time.

I completely agree about the damaged caused by SbE and how people don't really think about how it shaped their own thinking, as well as long term policy making - which caused damage from its inception and continues to cause damage in the here and now. The thinking lives on in one form or another.

Thank you, Warpy! Because the exchange has helped me to clarify some of my own thinking.

soldierant

(6,890 posts)
87. Interesting, that incident.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 11:21 PM
Mar 2021

When I was in the Marine Corps and received orders to a base in Japan, did think one thing I might learn was differences between different Asian nationalities. I saw it as widening my knowledge of cultures - and learning to appreciate and embrace those differences. Bu by the end of my tour, I could barely tell the difference between an Asian and a European ... at least there was certainly one Asian who looked so much to me like someone else I knew with a German background - I could barely tell them apart. I cam to the conclusion it was better that way. All human beings. (Margaret Cho has been born when all this happened - but she was only about eight.)

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
88. You were hoping to learn something new but not everyone has a good motive.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 11:56 PM
Mar 2021

Last edited Fri Mar 12, 2021, 04:15 PM - Edit history (1)

Though I don't think anyone hoping to lash out at someone who was specifically Korean or Chinese or Japanese would stop to ask if their victim was the ethnicity they were aiming to attack.

Like Trump with his "China virus" hate speech providing the impetus to attack Asian Americans. The attackers aren't worried about if the person they attack are, in fact, Chinese. Though their language would reflect anger at people from China. They only see Asian or someone they assume is Asian and that's who they want to hurt. Every Asian is Chinese as far as they are concerned.

Same with attacks on Muslims in the days following September 11, 2001. Anyone with a head covering was likely to be attacked, like the Sikh man who was murdered in Arizona. The killer didn't care really, about whether his victim was Muslim or whatever - all he saw was a head covering and dark skin. He had told friends he was going to kill "towel-heads". Anyone with a head covering would do.

Her point still stands though. You have to wonder why someone wants to know the difference because their motive might be to bring harm. Her other point was it didn't matter, the differences, because when it comes to racism, they are all the other to the people who hate.

To a white supremacist, everyone against their ideology is the "other". The enemy.


soldierant

(6,890 posts)
103. I was - and I did - I learned I was better off as a human being without
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 03:55 PM
Mar 2021

the knowledge I thought i wanted. Having universal humanity impressed upon me was a far better thing to learn.

Yes, my motives were good. But that wasn't enough to make me right.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
104. But because you opened yourself up to a new experience, you learned something even better.
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 04:21 PM
Mar 2021

Yes, good intentions aren't always really the best thing - especially if they're rooted in ignorance or a lack of understanding.

A lot of people would not have taken the next step - embracing universal humanity. Seeing people as people. As humans.

They would have taken their preconceptions and gone back to a place they felt comfortable.



BobTheSubgenius

(11,564 posts)
34. When my wife was in high school, she was either dating or friends with a boy of Italian descent.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:19 PM
Mar 2021

Like many, he had an olive complexion, darker even than most. Her paternal grandmother asked if she couldn't find herself a white boy, and my wife is a beast when it comes to defending her "yard", so to speak, especially when it involves racism.

She always taught her children that even innocuous-sounding "jokes" that identify a group are harmful, so their generic "target" was cannibals. Everyone knows Hispanic, AA, Jewish...whatever group you want to name, but who knows a cannibal.

But I digress.

She rather pointedly told her paternal grandmother that she was taught that "If you don't have anything nice to say...etc" and her grandmother quite literally knocked her to the floor!

Her mother was having NONE of this, and grannie was horrified that, not only was her dil OK with D's behavior, and was taking her side in the confrontation, but was throwing grannie out of the house.

They didn't mend fences for several years, and my (elder) sil was pissed that she didn't get to see grannie any more, and blamed D for "breaking up the family."

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
48. Goodness. Family drama abounds in my own family. But that's a story for a time that will
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:47 PM
Mar 2021

probably never come.

You have to stand up to ignorance and bigotry.

denvine

(802 posts)
45. Thank you for opening up with your very personal truths.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:37 PM
Mar 2021

I am so sorry you experienced this ugly reality of human behavior. Since I was young, I believed the future would be a world in which skin color would be no different than hair color. Unfortunately that has not come to pass and I don't believe it will before I am gone. I do believe it has gotten better but it is creeping along at too slow a pace. Some of it will never die until the people who have racism engrained in them are dead. Our hope is to teach our children because changing minds, have we have found out, has a low success rate. Speaking the truth as Meghan has is necessary and needs to be heard by everyone.

Aussie105

(5,405 posts)
50. The worst type of racism comes from people who don't think they are.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 04:53 PM
Mar 2021

Skin color? Who cares?

If the media hadn't made such a big thing about Meghan being 'not 100% white' I would have said she had a nice tan. And that it suited her.
Maybe guessed she was of Italian descent?

But no . . . the media: 'Not trying to be racist here, but look at Meghan's mother!'.

Sad.

Someone inside the palace asked out loud what color the baby might turn out like.
Should have kept quiet, and just waited to see. If they thought it was important.

Racism in the UK is a secret that is denied in public. Less so in America.

Wife, born and brought up in the UK, has 'sub Saharan African' genes. Courtesy of a visiting US GI during WW2.
Now, some 'dark' genes were thought to exist in her family tree, but proudly put down to Native American genes.

Wife did a genetics test and laughed when she got the results.
She didn't care. But she could name a few of her US and UK relatives who would be mighty upset about that.

Honestly, many Americans have features that possibly link them to African, Middle East, Mexican, etc descent.

Should we care?
Google 'genetic hybrid vigor' and you may realize some mixing of the gene pool is a good thing.




kooth

(219 posts)
56. Thank You
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 05:02 PM
Mar 2021

Thanks for posting your thoughts. We should all learn from this. I hope that no one else treats you or your family this way again!

Behind the Aegis

(53,961 posts)
58. It should go without saying...
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 05:04 PM
Mar 2021

but for you...



It is a shame such ignorance is still so prevalent. I just listened to a book on witchcraft and another on conspiracies. Listening to the history, despite some marvelous advancements, we as a species seem easily frightened and prone to illogical and dangerous thinking. Some laugh at the "stupidity" and "simpleness" of Middle Age Europe and their witch hunts, or the various other "crackpot" ideas (phrenology, eugenics, etc.), but then we come to the 21st and we are confronted with the former president, Marjorie Taylor Greene, flat-Earthers, anti-vaxxers, and supremacists of all stripes.

And, just because,

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
61. True. The labels may change but the fear and ignorance seems to cling tightly.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 05:09 PM
Mar 2021


Humans seem to go out of their way to give credence to their irrational fears and garner respect for their ignorance but when it comes to love for, and acceptance of, each other they build wall after wall.

JohnnyRingo

(18,636 posts)
66. K&R
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 05:39 PM
Mar 2021

Thanx for posting.

No one ever asks to touch my hair! Maybe because in these post chemo days I look like Larry from the Three Stooges. nyuk nyuk

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
69. Mine got thinner, noticeably so, on one side. I found that annoying.
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 05:46 PM
Mar 2021

This from the radiation though. The type of chemo I was on didn't cause the hair to fall out. Did make me sick though. For a short while, a Dr. Pepper Icee helped - until even those turned my stomach. Was a bad day the first time that happened. I went home and cried. After losing my taste for so many foods, to have something comforting ripped away from me. It was too much.

I can laugh about it now, but not at the time.

I'm glad you can laugh!

MLAA

(17,300 posts)
70. Right on, Solly Mack, right on!
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 06:23 PM
Mar 2021

Thank you for sharing your experiences with me. I, too am supportive of Meghan and Harry. As you know first hand it takes courage to stand up to family.

I recently told my sister law she was racist after she made not one but two obviously racist statements in a row without taking a breath. She replied ‘I’m not racist’ and I said of course you are and don’t call me again until you’ve educated yourself about Black Lives Matter and want to have a real conversation about it. No surprise, she didn’t ever call back.

samplegirl

(11,480 posts)
74. That was a great post Solly
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 06:57 PM
Mar 2021

My nephew is married to a wonderful black woman and I hate that my brother uses racial slurs when he talks to my sister.
I’ve told her on several occasions she should never tolerate that! NEVER!
I cut him off at the fact he voted trump!

Your a warm wonderful person and so happy your mother’s influence lives on!!
Your a great influence and friend to many here on D.U.

Thank you for your passionate post!

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
75. How horrible for your sister and you!
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 07:13 PM
Mar 2021

It's painful when it is family that behaves that way. Hurts more and it is hard to break those ties.

I hope your nephew and his wife are spared all that. Though knowing what to expect does better arm a person. I feel that way anyway.

Thank you for your kind words, samplegirl.

My mom was a force.

cate94

(2,812 posts)
81. Thanks for sharing this
Thu Mar 11, 2021, 08:19 PM
Mar 2021

My family heritage is primarily Irish. My skin is so pale, I burn easily and terribly. My sister, otoh, burns slightly and tans nicely. We talked about skin tones around the dinner table.

My sister made a Facebook post comparing our childhood discussions with the Meghan situation. I totally disagreed with her but didn’t have the words or experience you so eloquently posted. May I share?

I’m sorry you went through this, but appreciate your insight so much.

TigressDem

(5,125 posts)
90. I hope Meghan and Harry do better over here and eventually the peeps on the other side of the pond
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 12:44 AM
Mar 2021

Get their heads out of their collective arses.... Not just the Royals....

You too PIERS MORGAN, what a creep..... and actually make real amends.

Some people in that group made Dianna feel horrible too.... white as white but tweedle dumb wanted to be with Camilla.


You KNOW they are as inbred as some we have in the US. Begins to turn the brains to mush.


Harry and Meghan did the hard thing, but it was the right thing. Hope it is the beginning of real change.




lostnfound

(16,184 posts)
92. I'm white and can't believe it took me 50:years to see how stupid most whites are
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 09:43 AM
Mar 2021

I learned about racism in Catholic school, that we were all Gods children and that terrible things had been done to people based on the color of their skin, and this made God unhappy. But it was an all-white Catholic school. And some kids were treated as less for reasons as silly as their names “Penny?! What kind of name is that? There is no St. Penny!”

I got confused when my aging and cautious father told us to lock the doors”on “the South side” because it wasn’t safe. As a teenager it annoyed me.

In college I tried but failed to make a friend of a black woman roommate. I’m sorry for whatever ignorance on my part chased her away.

In the workplace it was easier. But only in my 40s when I was raising a child did I see black people on the streets with eyes newly opened to the hardship some experienced and yet they overcame. Raising a kid was so hard, even with my advantages. What must it be like for others? Gradually I started to become shocked by the level of self control displayed by black people every day, to survive in such a ridiculously racist society.

Years of listening to KPFT — shows by Hitaji Azziz for example — taught me to be more broadly aware. More recently, I’ve really enjoyed Joy Reid, Tiffany Cross, Jonathan Capehart, and Al Sharpton not only for their own views but the fact that they often have multiple black guests discussing issues important to them. It is a pleasure, in spite of often painful content, to feel one’s own mind or heart stretched open. Let it happen. I’m grateful. And clearly, the “average black person” is showing way better judgment than “the average white person” who elected the former guy.

But also in recent years, I feel very angry at the PRIMITIVES who insist on perpetuating the tired, hateful, limiting, destructive and ugly racism that makes the world worse for everyone. Hearing that there was speculation about the color of the skin of an unborn baby of Meghan and Harry made me want to throw up. The smirking face of Derek Chauvin is like dirt to me, like repulsive chewed-up dirty gum stuck on the shoe of America. The laws being passed to suppress black votes are a hard slap in the face to the ideals I was taught when young by my less-than-perfect dad or my-less-than-perfect school. At the moment, the only specific non-family bequests in my will are to Fair Fight and Southern Poverty Law Center.

I’m sorry it took so long to get this far, for me. The future belongs to people of color, and I personally will welcome that change.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
101. Great post!
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 03:24 PM
Mar 2021

You hit on a truth. It is a process - the unraveling of what we were taught, what we picked up, and what we saw that had an impact - whether we knew it or not - that shaped our thinking.

Each day, people have to make a conscious effort to challenge their preconceptions. To challenge what they believe and why.

Too look beyond what feels comfortable for what is right. What is truth.

We all, myself included, have to make that effort. Have to go through that process.



mountain grammy

(26,626 posts)
93. K & R
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 11:31 AM
Mar 2021

Well said, beautifully written..

My mom had the dark curly hair, brown eyes of many eastern European Jews, my sister and I both blond and blue eyed like our Irish dad. Oh the stares we got when mom took us to services.

How I loved and admired my mother. Lost her 32 years ago, still miss her every day.

Moosepoop

(1,920 posts)
95. WHY do people feel entitled to ask stupid questions???
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 12:14 PM
Mar 2021

On a lesser level, I had the same sort of thing happen. I'm white, and so are my kids. We're all fair-skinned, with one daughter and I having light hair & eyes, and the other daughter with brown hair and darker eyes. The brown-haired one had a medical condition that caused her to be extremely jaundiced until age 4, when the condition was successfully dealt with.

Strangers would come up to us, ooh and aah over my daughter, and then ask me what country I adopted her from. When I would reply that she was not adopted, she came from me, you could see their demeanor change ever-so-slightly as they then would ask, "So... her father... must be... Asian??"

The implication was that it was OK if she were of Asian descent and adopted, but not OK if she were the product of a mixed relationship. Or maybe they considered her "less than" either way, but were giving my also-white self props for taking in one of "them"??

What really pissed me off was that total strangers felt entitled to approach us and ask questions in the first place. Whether she was adopted or not, or what her ancestry might be, was none of their business. Period. Just as whether the adult with you was your parent, your caregiver, or the next door neighbor was nobody else's business to be asking about -- at all!!!

My child picked up on the questions and began asking "Is Daddy really my Daddy? Are you really my Mommy? Am I different? What are they talking about??" Those busybodies caused real confusion in a very young child. It did provide the basis to start teaching my kids about racial bias, though, so at least that came of it.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
100. Because they hold one idea of the world and they think they're being nice, not stupid.
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 03:19 PM
Mar 2021

Within that framework of how they see the world and how they arrange everyone's place in it, they can only see people through that filter.

You seemed to be one of them but your child - something not quite right to their thinking. Their prejudice shining through though they would call it concern or being polite.

That's not an excuse I'm offering.

I've thought about this a lot. Why people would even be stupid enough to ask such questions.

An old DUer who is no longer around talked about the fish not knowing it is in water.

Some people don't know they're behaving in a way shaped by prejudice and ignorance. Some don't care if they are - will never bother to learn differently or simply don't think it is them that need to change.

Children do pick up on adult conversations and it does cause a lot of pain for them. Their minds are still forming and now they have this fear, this trauma to process. It can be very confusing.

I am so sorry you and your daughter had to experience that.

flibbitygiblets

(7,220 posts)
96. What a poignant post
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 12:36 PM
Mar 2021

Thank you for sharing. Because whenever we white folk think we finally, truly understand all there is to learn about racism, we hear another story such as yours, and then we can take that new understanding with us into the world. And hopefully try to use this privilege that we now realize we have, to be more thoughtful, to challenge ourselves and those we interact with to be better human beings.

Solly Mack

(90,773 posts)
102. Sadly, there are so many stories out there with mine being one of the minor ones.
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 03:26 PM
Mar 2021

You are so right! We must challenge ourselves to be better, to learn, to grow.

barbtries

(28,799 posts)
97. i don't care if it was his father or his brother (convinced it's one or the other),
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 12:41 PM
Mar 2021

but you're absolutely right. the crown shitcanned a golden opportunity by rejecting Meghan and the baby because of skin color, when they could have shown the world that it truly is the content of your character and not the color of your skin.

it's heartbreaking to me because of that. Because whether we give a shit or not about them, they have the power to change hearts and minds. instead they showed themselves up for racist idiots, validating racist idiots all over the globe.

Remember Edward VIII? He abdicated the throne for "the woman he loved," an American divorcee. The family would never allow him to marry her otherwise. Never looked back. I think Harry is like that. Diana lived long enough to invest him with much love.

So, there's that. The world is turning with or without the royal racists, but it could have been so much better, if only they took their heads out of their asses. Even now, they could admit they are in the wrong here, and atone and resolve to be better. Unfortunately I don't see that happening.

Kid Berwyn

(14,914 posts)
105. Heard former Sen. Carl Levin yesterday...
Fri Mar 12, 2021, 05:55 PM
Mar 2021

The great Democrat described how his mother explained America to her kids:

“You’re not better than anybody and nobody is better than you.”

Some people never get that. Their eternal loss.

And for the record: You are TOPS, Solly Mack.

https://www.michiganradio.org/post/stateside-sen-carl-levin-his-new-memoir-history-and-future-black-farmers

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