There is a disturbing trend in the posts about the Atlanta shooter.

[Scrivener7]

I just read a post that said the Atlanta shooter believed the massage parlors were places of prostitution "because he is a racist and sexist scumbag." Many other posters have said that it is racist and sexist to suggest that massage parlors are often sites of prostitution.

The Atlanta shooter obviously IS a racist and sexist scumbag. But not because he believed massage parlors are often places of prostitution.

It is not racist and sexist to acknowledge the FACT that there is a network of an estimated 9000 massage parlors across the country that ARE sites of prostitution, sexual coercion and human trafficking. It is the denial of this fact that is racist and sexist, because it denies the plight of the thousands and thousands of women (many in their 40s, 50s and 60s) who are victimized and exploited in these places.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/us/massage-parlors-human-trafficking.html

Behind Illicit Massage Parlors Lie a Vast Crime Network and Modern Indentured Servitude

She was 49, a recent immigrant and deeply in debt to a loan shark back home in China when she answered an employment ad three years ago that promised thousands of dollars a month, but offered no job description. She realized too late that she had been tricked into working at a massage parlor in Flushing, Queens, where besides kneading backs, she was expected to sexually service up to a dozen men a day.

snip

The frequently middle-aged women who work in parlors with names like Orchids of Asia and Rainbow Spa are often struggling to pay off high debts to family members, loan sharks, labor traffickers and lawyers who help them file phony asylum claims. In some cases, their passports are taken and their illegal immigration status keeps them further in the shadows, with some of them rotated every 10 days to two weeks between spas operated by the same owners. Forced to pay for their own supplies and even their own condoms, many women must sleep on the same massage tables where they service customers and cook on hot plates in cramped kitchens or on back steps.

snip

In strip malls across the country, neon signs and brightly colored placards promise hot stones, acupuncture and shiatsu with photos of women or couples receiving relaxing shoulder rubs. But a traditionally Asian form of therapeutic relaxation with deep roots in big-city Chinatowns has spun off a different kind of massage parlor that has little to do with traditional remedies. It has exploded into a $3 billion-a-year sex industry that relies on pervasive secrecy, close-knit ownership rings and tens of thousands of mostly foreign women ensnared in a form of modern indentured servitude.

snip

Law enforcement officials said there were an estimated 9,000 illicit massage parlors across the country, from Orlando to Los Angeles.

Read the article and see what these women's lives are like. We owe it to them to not deny their existence and their plight.

(PS: I changed my name, y'all )

[5X]

1. Rather than cancelling student debt

how bout we cancel the debt of all people that have been trafficked.

[Scrivener7]

2. Oh, man. Wouldn't that be something? Total amnesty and a small amount of money to

either get on their feet here, or go home if they want to.

This whole situation is so heartbreaking. To get to the middle point in your life and be captive in a situation like this.

[PTWB]

3. Why not both?

[Sgent]

19. The debt's not valid

in the first place in a court of law, but human trafficker's don't often result to courts.

[msfiddlestix]

4. I don't kknow about these trending posts but I do agree with you on the point.

There is a weird trend denying certain inconvenient facts related to incident happening in Social discussions on TV and elsewhere, not just in this incident, and not just about massage parlors.


Evidence of a set of facts, doesn't necessarily rule out evidence of other facts. Yet I see and hear this phenomenon frequently.

I didn't articulate this very well.

There is another post about a San Francisco African American elected official, a civil rights activist who had in 2016, called out racism towards African Americans by API business owners, educators, etc. Now API are accusing her of racism and calling for her resignation.


The fact that these crimes against the API community are factually racists, does not mean that API traditionally have NOT been racist in practice and in attitude towards African American community. That too is a fact. These things are not mutually exclusive.

This current event may actually bring us to a turning point, with more consciousness awareness especially with a new generation involved in making these attitudinal changes. Perhaps, let's hope.


With regard to Massage Parlors, they have been fronts for Prostitution since forever. That is a fact I know that the practice of genuine massage therapy has become a mainstream healing therapeutic, as is acupuncture, shiatsu, chiropractic and so forth, but not practiced in massage parlors.

Some parlors I've noticed are using the word Spas in their business name. It's still a massage parlor.

Requests for Straight Massages at a Massage Parlor are not rejected by the way. That's a thing too.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

16. I can't figure out what API stands for in this context.

Google tells me Application Programming Interface, which doesn't make sense.

[BadgerMom]

17. API is Asian Pacific Islander, I think.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

24. Thank you.

Once again, people need to stop assuming everyone else knows every abbreviation they do.

[Marcuse]

18. Asian/Pacific Islander

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

25. Thank you.

I was thinking the A might stand for Asian, but the other two were not obvious to me.

[ARandomPerson]

30. Important context about the San Francisco elected official.

Her name is Alison Collins. She is vice president of the San Francisco Board of Education.

She didn't simply "call out" racism among Asian-Americans. That is not the reason people have accused her of racism and called for her resignation.

Collins accused Asian-Americans of "white supremacist" thinking as a strategy for getting ahead and used a vile racial slur to categorize those amongst Asian-Americans who acted in ways that she deemed objectionable.

Collins should be fired. She has no business educating children.

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Alison-Collins-San-Francisco-school-Asians-tweets-16038855.php

[msfiddlestix]

35. that is important to know. thank you for correcting me on the record and the facts

As old as I am, I ought not to be surprised to see, observe, read and hear about bigotry across the spectrum, but none the less I'm always surprised, or puzzled by it until I think through a little while.

I wonder if Collins has reconsidered her bias and reflected on her own bigotry at this point. Am I remembering correctly those remarks were made back in 2016? I'm curious has she ever made any apologies, has she yet to address and make it clear she's evolved and that she was clearly in the wrong. I wonder if there's any chance she has attempted in good faith to atone, and done anything to reach out or is she in defense mode and sticking with her wrongful allegations. ?

[Johnny2X2X]

5. Agree with this.

Last edited Sat Mar 20, 2021, 10:59 AM - Edit history (1)

But it sounds like 1 of these 3 parlors in Atlanta was a legit non sex trafficking site. The other two do sound illicit.

The Times article even downplays this a little IMO. Many of these illicit parlors are dens of literal human slavery and not a form of “indentured servitude.” There are women being held against their will, beaten, and raped at many of these places and not much is being done to help them.

Acknowledging that far too many of these spas are places where women are victimized is not racist. And if some of the victims were being forced to work as prostitutes, that doesn’t diminish their lives one bit, not an iota, it means they were likely victims before being murdered too and that is tragic.

Do people here think prostitutes lives are less valuable?

[hlthe2b]

6. Yes, there are some & undoubtedly many. But too broad a brush. I posted before that a good friend

of mine does health and safety inspections of massage parlors along with restaurants and others that are licensed and they work with a handful of undercover cops that visit them on occasion as well. He has not encountered a questionable facility (routinely performing "happy endings" or with undocumented immigrants ) in more than five years in his area of Denver. Certainly, there are issues in some cities, but sometimes these are just licensed massage parlors and the employees (largely Asian, but not all) simply seeking what is often entry-level employment. There have even been some very legit operations that have gone on to hire certified rehab and physical therapists to enlarge their business, usually under the auspices of a medical clinic.

Let's be aware but cautious of the "broad strokes." Not all things are identical in every city and area across the country and crack-downs have made some inroads.

I think it racist to assume every Asian massage parlor is a place of prostitution and thus the Asian women--young or old are just that. Cities that give a shit about it and the potential for these or any other business to enable human trafficking, actually do monitor them, inspect them, license them and when necessary, infiltrate them to be sure--just as they do nail salons, restaurants or any other business.

Broad bush incriminations, such as this will have even more individuals looking at young Asian women as prostitutes, just like this horrific killer. I beseech all here to keep it in perspective. You may come at this from a sense of sympathy, but if you are propagating such stereotypes, you are adding to the problem.

[spooky3]

7. Great post. Thank you.

[bucolic_frolic]

11. Agreed, that is a broad brush for a wide spectrum of conditions

Most may be that way, but there are extreme fringes on both ends, willing and unwilling.

[llashram]

14. this

[uponit7771]

20. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾 ... The OP is broad brushing WAY too many Spas and Massage business's

[ChicagoRonin]

8. Why your post concerns me (from an Asian American)

You are not wrong in your concerns about the problem of human trafficking involving Asian immigrants, or businesses that are fronts for prostitution.

However, for myself, posts or even news headlines beginning with "There is a disturbing trend . . . " seem to be a common facet of right-wing disinformation, particularly ones that are aimed at slamming immigrants or minorities.

They're all "disturbed" about overhyped claims of Mexican murderers and rapists, or that Chinese are supposedly spreading COVID and they are "disturbed" the Democrats are underplaying.

Anyway, you probably are very well-intended, but for myself, it's very hard not to read something like this and fear that the legitimate places and illegitimate places are being lumped together. It's tough, because there are acknowledgeable facts that support what you are saying. However, without proper context and wider discussion, it can add to the worries of Asian Americans who are already feeling unjustly targeted.

Anyway, if you and anyone reading this really share this concern about human trafficking, here's a list of organizations you should know about: https://healtrafficking.org/non-governmental-organizations/

I've written more about my feelings about this from an Asian American perspective here.
[link:https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15240631|

[Scrivener7]

28. Sometimes a disturbing trend is a disturbing trend. The existence of these

places is not "right wing propaganda", nor am I a purveyer of right wing propaganda.

[ChicagoRonin]

34. Follow-up question

How deeply concerned of this issue were you before this past week's events? Were you a regular monitor of it in the news? Do you donate to organizations involved in combating human trafficking and sex slavery?

This isn't about you. I've actually had very un-nuanced and rather unpleasant conversations elsewhere with people and I'm trying to understand why it seems like fellow Asian Americans are primarily discussing this specific set of murders and the identity of the victims (which has been confirmed), and why so many white friends are mainly focused on the possibility (not yet confirmed) that the locations hit were involved in illicit activities.

I'm just trying to understand.

[mainer]

29. I agree. It's the ASSUMPTION that's racist.

When you assume that every Asian woman who owns such a business or works as a massage therapist is a sex workers, that’s hurtful.

[paleotn]

9. How soon we forget that Robert Kraft...

owner of the NE Patriots was busted in just such an establishment. I was a bit shocked so many such places were operating across the metro Atlanta area. GA being firmly in the bible belt. The land of family values and all. Instead of worrying about "the chyna virus", maybe the Cherokee County SD should be focusing on prostitution and sex slavery in their own backyard? Just a thought.

[Dopers_Greed]

10. Yeah, those massage places are a huge problem

It's especially bad in one area of my city, where they are straight up brothels dealing in human trafficking. They regularly make the local news for getting raided, but somehow seem to keep operating.

As a kid in the 90's, I would literally hear radio ads for them. It wasn't until I got older that I realized in retrospect what was going on.

Though, I'm guessing that a lot of them don't do this. The offenders use the cover of a legitimate-looking business to operate.

[kcr]

12. Thank you

It's beyond disturbing, IMO.

[plimsoll]

13. A point missing here is that he shot the women.

Not the traffickers.

The women who are trafficked are victimized by the traffickers, abused by the "patrons." This guy didn't care that about any of that, they were women. It sounds like he's from one of those churches that continues to present women as the source of evil, people were surprised? By what, that he acted out on the message? I wonder if there wasn't some back channel messaging that all massage parlors in the area were brothels.

So by all means we shouldn't use the broad brush, but we must not lose sight of the fact that this attack was not on prostitution, but on women. It was probably intensified by the increasing asian bigotry in our country, but the guy targeted women.

[jmbar2]

15. The industry is problematic

Most massage parlors are pretty shady. No one wants a strip full of them in their neighborhoods.

We seem to harshly judge immigrants who pick our food, but kind of look away from the massage industry. The murders will unfortunately, strengthen the mental links between Asian women and these businesses.

[vlyons]

21. How is it easier to murder 7 or 8 women

than it is to exercise some self-discipline and self-control over one's sex urges, desires, and judgements?

[markie]

22. very good segment on NPR

this morning... "It's Been a Minute with Sam Sanders" had a bit on anti-Asian Racism... Professor Jennifer Ho talked about the history of sexualization of Asian women... worth the listen


https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510317/its-been-a-minute-with-sam-sanders

[Martin68]

23. Prostitution was practiced at the massage parlors he frequented . That does not devalue the women

who worked there. Women in the sex industry have their own reasons for working in that field, and unless you know exactly what they are, I'd suggest you refrain from criticizing them or suggesting that telling the truth about their employment is racist or misogynistic.

[kcr]

26. Telling the truth about their employement in itself isn't racist or misogynistic

I don't think the OP is doing that. There are many posts on DU that are denying the fact they are prostitutes and claiming anyone who is doing so is being racist and misogynistic. IMO, the denial only makes things worse, as if claiming these women are prostitutes is demeaning them or defending the shooter.

[Martin68]

33. I didn't intend to imply that ws the OP's message. I was trying to bolster the OP's message.

I was writing to persuade people to stop assuming that telling the truth about their occupation is a slur.

[BobTheSubgenius]

27. Super complex problem with many facets.

The root of the problem lies, in large part, in their countries of origin, places over which "we" have little influence and no control of what I'll call street-level issues. At least that term is descriptive.

This problem will almost certainly never disappear without rooting out the societal ills - mostly economic - that are so large as to defy even the suggestion of solutions.

What is truly terrible is that, for a few of these poor women, life hasn't gotten a lot worse since arriving in the places that are sex-trafficking in America. Their lives were plenty horrible to begin with, in some cases.

Years ago, my ex-bil went on a holiday to SE Asia with 3 of his buddies. Some of his stories were mind-blowing. They spent a little time near Clark AFB in the Philippines, a HUGE military installation with many, many young men whose earnings in US funds, however small in our terms, seemed like a fortune to the hundreds of working girls who fought like hell among themselves to be the next one to get a little of it.

He said that the most surreal experience he had was riding a small motorcycle out into the countryside, coming to a farmer's shack. Once there, his guide and translator haggled with the farmer over the "rental price" of his 2 daughters.

Now, Dave and his friends were not, and are not now, creeps, and there was nothing sexual in their agenda. It was simply handy as hell to have temporary maids that shopped, cooked, did laundry, etc. One of the best things, he said, was them putting down the mosquito nets at bedtime, and doing a thorough sweep for the nasty little buggers.

At the end of their stay, they tipped the girls in US funds, over and above what their father had received. They were over the moon with some US money of their own, especially since dear old dad didn't know about it, presumably.

How many steps do you think that little story was from prostitution, if that had been their aim? The farmer clearly had no misgivings, and the daughters were bound to accede to his wishes, almost whatever they were. Destitution has driven some otherwise normal people to cannibalism, when the need was extreme. Prostitution, then. isn't so hard to understand, however demeaning and dangerous it is to both parties to the transaction.

[Sunsky]

31. We do not have to neglect facts

to not participate in stereotyping. Stereotyping breeds racism. There are many legitimately run massage parlors where sex trafficking does not occur. To automatically gravitate towards sex trafficking simply because they are Asian-associated massage parlors is also insensitive. It places a negative mark on people who may be simply earning a decent wage, because of the bad actions of others. Hence, innocent people being killed because of a problem they have nothing to do with.
We all should address our biases. I have learned to see individuals/ an entity and not groups. As of today, I have not heard any of these massage parlors being linked to sex trafficking. So all the stats and facts so far do not apply. If it becomes apparent that any massage parlor is participating in sex trafficking, they should be dealt with by the law.

[ARandomPerson]

32. This NYMag article does a good job of exploring this point.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/03/the-flattening-of-the-atlanta-shootings.html

The writer points out that the murders might not have had a single motivation. The killer might have been influenced by both (1) racism and (2) weird sexual obsessions fueled by religious fanaticism. It's a disservice both to the victims and the cause of truth to try to force these murders into a single narrative.