"Conservatives" are getting worse

[Cary]

Last edited Fri Apr 16, 2021, 11:56 AM - Edit history (1)

Last night two of them tried to convince me that their conclusions were equally valid as facts. Why wasn't the Capitol police officer, who shot and killed the woman on January 6, named? Why was what he did not the same as what Derrick Chauvin did? The former guy didn't incite the insurrection and Joe Biden is as bad as the former guy (who wasn't so bad). Why did Joe Biden lie about the Georgia law? Covid isn't bad and 550,000 deaths isn't bad.

At least they didn't try to tell me that the vaccine was really a Bill Gates microchip, but they did do the George Soros schtick.

I told them that they were a minority and after a lame effort to deny it they still insisted that there is no such thing as truth and the fact that I wholly reject their alternative facts means that I am as bad as they are.

And there was more but most of it was trying to tell me that there was something wrong with me. I did give them pause when I said that Hunter Biden never ran for office, but I didn't get to say that the reason why it is important that they aren't a majority is that they live in a democracy, and even beyond that they actually failed to understand what I meant. They were trying to say something about how I have to give them a fair hearing. They were doing "both sides do it" and there was no way to actually reason with them.

Talking to "conservatives" has become impossible and intolerable for me. I feel like crap. In addition I had to block a friend on Facebook because he is just too radical. Republicans are not a party any more, they are a radical, violent anti-democracy insurgency and while I cannot imagine how they could be worse it is, at the same time, clear to me that I have not seen their worst.

[Croney]

1. You've given me a good idea.

I have to spend a week with some RWNJ's soon. Rather than tell them facts they won't listen to, I'm just going to say, "You're in the minority." Over and over. They're like the hundreds who attacked the Capitol, assuming millions were surging in behind them.

No one has your back, you're delusional. You're in the minority.

[GoneOffShore]

3. Excellent - So I'm adopting this tactic. I'll use it with my other go to: 'Nope. Wrong. Try again.'

The 'Nope. Wrong. Try again.' quite often makes them spit up tea on their keyboards.

[Cary]

6. Yes it actually affected these two

Ask them too why they hate democracy.

[Hortensis]

9. Agree with pointing out that they're maybe a quarter at most.

Last time a couple tried to push RW lies at me, during what was supposedly a pleasant social conversation, I told them I knew what the things they were saying were not true and that I felt they must know that as well. When they tried again, I told them, chuckle, chuckle, I knew they weren't crazy, that they couldn't possibly believe the nonsense they were spouting, and that I wasn't playing that game.

No win, of course, but I controlled the ball -- refusing to consider the lies themselves, and they didn't like it. They also didn't like when I answered some looong, "fact-filled" accusation of Democratic perfidy by simply asking them if they felt there was any connection between truth and goodness.

A consequence has so far been not getting another chance to try it out. I did try provoking one by asking if she'd considered whether there was a connection between truth and goodness. She didn't tell me she wasn't playing my game, though that's what I took from her changing the subject. But I made a point.

[FakeNoose]

34. Whatever "facts" they give you aren't really "facts"

... because everything they spout is lies. Right-wingers have no facts, I've known that since long before Chump ever showed up, and it's even worse now. For this reason alone their arguments don't deserve a polite listen. They're wrong, it's all lies, it's nonsense, and they're in the minority.

[Hortensis]

37. Right. And trying to refute is like playing chess with a pigeon.

When you acknowledge their lies in order to refute them, you've already lost.

So when invited, just say no.

Experts say what works, for those who care about connecting, is to speak in personal terms in ways others can relate to. For instance, in responding to all the freedom crap. just saying that for "me" masking and vaccination are being pro-life, that for "me" it's about being my brother's keeper. And leaving it at that.

[Towlie]

12. Fight fallacy with fallacy? No, I prefer valid arguments even if my opponent can't comprehend them.

 
←

And as a person holding a minority view regarding religion (like every other person on Earth), I reject the concept of Truth by majority vote.

[hunter]

29. It's much quicker to laugh out loud and ask, "Where do you get that shit?"

There's no reason to suffer fools.

Which probably explains why I don't have any "conservative" friends.

[OneGrassRoot]

2. They are indeed violent, radical extremists...

Supremacists (white, Christian, nationalist). At the very least enable that violence. I agree, rather than reality setting in for more of them after 1/6, it's my experience that they are getting worse. I haven't interacted with Trumpers in a long time. I have made it my personal policy to shun them after decades of trying various ways to engage them. It's no longer a matter of them not being aware or not having the information. THEY DON'T WANT TO CHANGE THEIR WORLDVIEW. Period.

But I have been checking in on some and have seen that it's only gotten exponentially worse.

They are the minority, but they're a significant minority which makes life for the rest of us soooooooooo difficult. So unnecessarily difficult.

[Hortensis]

4. Another idea: Call this subtype "RWNJs" and "seditionists" and remove "conservative"

from the vocabulary of factional character assassination and hate speech.

I'm guilty too, but I'm going to try to practice what I preach.

After all, conservatives helped elect Biden and Harris, save our bare majority in the house, and give us the senate tie. Without them a Republican congress would likely have already given President Trump dictatorial powers and for sure would be busily consolidating their authoritarian government.

[Cary]

7. Good idea

[JHB]

13. Don't leave out the good old-fashioned term, "ranting cranks". n/t

[Hortensis]

15. Oh, right. That one's indispensable. We know several. :)

[Cary]

30. I always use the scare quotes to mean that they aren't conservative

[Hortensis]

36. Oh, right. But around here "conservative" is often used as hate language.

For sure, you're right that traditional political conservatism has been replaced on the right by RW extremism. The same RW extremism that dominates almost everywhere and every time some faction has committed mass crimes against humanity.

However, the OTHER, SECOND meaning of conservative regards conservative personality. That's entirely different. People in whom conservative personality traits dominate are not just half of all Americans but half of humanity. Majorities that include decent conservatives immune to the trumpzi sort of craziness are how we keep the kind of mobs who create and follow vicious leaders from destroying everything.

"What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" ~ Abraham Lincoln describing what he saw as the most valuable contribution of political conservatism. This is to your point about the trumpists, because he certainly wasn't describing them.

[Cary]

39. I don't always conform to the norms here.

And regretfully I often cannot respect those norms for various reasons.

My use of scare quotes is appropriate, accurate, and well-considered. And while any norms against the use of scare quotes here at DU may not be a hill to die on I don't see any need to conform. Today's "conservatives" are in fact today's conservatives, as.real conservatism not only failed but devolved into a perverse cult.

It amuses me when a conservative like Joe Walsh or Joe Scarborough berates Democrats and warns them of losing elections because of some FoxNews talking point. These two failed to sell conservatism and lost their precious party to the former guy, and they're now going to tell us what to do?

Conservatism is dead and isn't coming back any time soon. I am back to my old bumper sticker slogan: VOTE DEMOCRATIC!

We don't need the erstwhile Republicans. It would be nice to have them, if they can show enough discipline to not be the tail wagging the dog. But we don't need them and they need to understand that. We are the majority. We must have our own discipline and not attack each other. We must turn out in droves.

[Hortensis]

40. Well, shoot. Turns out we can't agree. Didn't expect that.

Some major self indulgence of personalized "definitions," and I'll leave you to believe it's all mine.

[Cary]

41. We don't disagree as to substance though

Do we?

[Hortensis]

43. Not quite sure. I'm a "live and let live" person, Cary,

"one man's rights end where another man's nose begins," "right of all men to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness," etc. That goes for people who are conservative, both politically and by personality.

"Trumpist" behaviors that do not conform to those loose, functional standards of morality in a democracy are not acceptable, have become genuinely dangerous to all, and have to be stopped. Certainly fascism is completely incompatible!)

But, though those were never "my kind of people," I believe they're currently a worst version of themselves (they've definitely failed the "who'd be a Nazi" test). When and if they, or more likely everyone else puts their worst natures back in the cage and they're no longer a danger to other people, they'll just be people who have good and bad points and who I at least smile and say good morning to.

Because none of us are going anywhere, and we have a country to run and should plan to leave better for future generations.

Basically in agreement?

[Cary]

46. Hortensis I am not understanding where you think we disagree

My use of scare quotes is to distinguish between conservatism and what is today, in the United States, considered conservatism. Today's conservative isn't conservative, but rather to the right of conservatives.

I go by the traditional political spectrum and fascists are to the right of conservatives. We can find all kinds of lists to define what fascism is, and how many angels can dance .., but if you boil.down fascism to its essence it is a pure power grab. Today's "conservative" is also a white supremacist. You can many other boxes but I consider "conservative" with the scare quotes to be fascism.

I devised that myself and have convinced many others with my logic. I don't see where you disagree except that you don't approve of my shorthand. I"m sorry, but not sorry to change what I have been saying for about 20 years now.

What am I missing?

[Hortensis]

48. We seem to diverge around the issues of conservatism as

a political political ideology and/or a personality type. We both know the traditional political conservative ideology has been purged from the Republican Party, but the nation's conservatives themselves remain, in all their various types.

Fascism especially draws people who are very strongly conservative and authoritarian, and fascism realized is considered "archconservative," far or farthest right on the political spectrum, so extreme as to have almost nothing in common with traditional Republican conservatism before the 198ps.

Fascist leaders are also a really scary bunch who are very different from those "merely" seeking totalitarian power and wealth. And the strongly fascistic followers, today's trumpists, who elevate them NEED and WANT leaders to tell them what to do and to force everyone to be like them, or else. The fascist types all over Fox are extremely different from conservatives like the ones showing up all over MSNBC. We see the difference between Jeannine Pirro and Nicolle Wallace. I've read that every fascist nation known has persecuted designated groups to satisfy the people who put them in power, and the rest of the populace cowers and colludes to avoid becoming among the persecuted.

Aside from details, of course we're both horrified and frightened by what's happening on the right.

I do think a significant portion of more moderate cons have no idea what they're part of and, often zealously, helping empower, just as many cons in Germany didn't until it was too late and they cowered and feared for their own lives. If we do what we have to, most never will and will never understand why we feared, and hated, them.

[Cary]

49. I don't think that we do disagree

What I do see more and more is that the underlying toxin is racism. Racism is far more pervasive and insidious than I allowed myself to believe. Those people (and I mean that with the utmost disrespect) see clearly that white people will soon not be the majority so they have turned against democracy.

And while the true conservatives appear to be mortified by their spawn I have yet to see one of them fully accept the flaws in their ideology that enabled their own demise. So while I am impressed with their courage to be nevertRumpers, I don't fully res0ect them. Their "hate liberal" feature also remains palpable.

My feelings on this are still fluid. I had a bad day yesterday because of 3 RWNJs but in the light of a new day I see clearly that I gained a small ounce of perspective. I am more sure than ever that all roads to them lead to racism. Now why they think they can fool me or bully me is still beyond me.

[Hortensis]

52. Can't disagree, though they do have many fears. Racism is more

pervasive a factor than I once thought, though, also.

[Cary]

53. Have you read "Reaganland?"

It's history that I lived through. I never liked Reagan and seeing him in retrospect I dislike him more.

[Hortensis]

55. :) No, I haven't, though I guess I really should. I've read others

about the rise of conservatism, but that one's more recent.

And me too. I've disliked him and his administration more over time as more has come out. Of course back then he was no prince either. Our conservative friends thought he was wonderful as he screwed them over (not many were wealthy beneficiaries). They completely refused the clues from his very dysfunctional relationships with their children, estranged from two, just warm fuzzies all the way.

My husband and Michael Reagan worked at the same company while Reagan was in office and Michael tried pitching access to his dad to their customers. Just mention of "My father the President" in sales letters, but in those days just merely that improper hint at the possibility of corruption was scandalous. It was supposed to be hidden, and no one could have imagined Trump's sons someday openly hawking tickets for different levels of access on an ascending price scale.

[Cary]

42. And please understand that at this moment I am in a bad way

Last night's encounter with RWNJs left me feeling violated.

So some slack is appreciated.

[Hortensis]

44. You got it, Cary.

[NewHendoLib]

5. as Tony Soprano often said, "they're all dead to me"

I won't waste a second of my time or breath interacting with them. They are a cult, lost forever, and a waste of time.

[NoMoreRepugs]

8. Exactly right - a waste of time. I had to tell a friend that if he

believed someone who lied over 30,000 times in office over reality he was someone I could not respect.

[Biophilic]

10. Waste of time. Anyone who can't see the difference between

what happened in the Capital building on Jan. 6 and what Derek Chauvin did is so totally lost in their made up world as to be unregainable. I just can't imagine. But than I have that response often these days.

[Cary]

11. All roads with them lead to racism

Their ideology is perverse and dangerous. I feel like I've been mugged. Can we afford to take our eye of them?

I don't think so.

[erronis]

20. You're right. They'll keep on trying to poison the country, even if it kills them too.

I was listening to a program on NPR yesterday (1A?) where the guests on the show were very clear that we need to always be vigilant.

They may get quiet for a while, pull back into their bunkers, but the forces of evil will wait for a time to unleash them again.

[Cary]

21. My late history professorz Nunzio Pernicone,

always said that fascism is subversive.

[Wounded Bear]

14. Repubs have expelled pretty much all of the moderates from their ranks...

it's a radicalized cult now.

[Prof. Toru Tanaka]

22. Notice how they never bring up Ronald Reagan anymore?

He used to be their gold standard; today he would be derided as a RINO, if not worse.

[Caliman73]

32. Unfortunately, that was always going to be the case.

Conservatism is not a moderating ideology. The foundations of conservatism are that there is a natural hierarchy within humans, The philosophers associated with conservatism, Burke and De Maistre, started off by defending the idea of Monarchy as a natural and correct system of government (the strongest man leads). They saw leadership by the "common man" as a disgusting affront on nature. When Monarchy as a viable form of government, fell, they did not wise up and say that equality and democracy were the better alternative, they simply changed who the "great man" that should lead was. They went with the wealthy. They cite god and "natural law" as indicators that these "great men" should lead.

When this is your basis of thought for leadership and how society should be structured, you will end up with a demagogue and are highly susceptible to radicalization.

We liberals/progressives/other left leaning people admired President Obama, but if he started to move toward trying to consolidate power, denigrating the Press, and disregarding the other co-equal branches of government, we would not have fallen in line like conservatives do because our philosophy about government is different and based more on equality. We want competent leaders who have a mix of natural talent and learned and lived experience, but we believe that those things can come from any person from any walk of life, who has the opportunity to acquire those things rather than some "ordained by god" leader. Not to say that liberals can't be radicalized, but it is less likely because our basis for thought is not geared toward that like conservatism is.

[Jerry2144]

16. All of that thanks to

Conservative propaganda media. I wish DOJ could do a deep investigation of them. I suspect there is much Russian money finding them. One of the Russian main goals is to cause as much division in this country to weaken us.

But the first amendment prevents investigating the press on a hunch.

[Caliman73]

35. Possibly, but they don't really need Russian money.

There are plenty of home grown sources that fund right wing media outlets. When Rupert Murdoch was setting up Fox News, he was already a rich man, and he had the backing of right wing money men. This had been in the works since the Nixon administration and the wealthy wanted an outlet that would push a conservative message. Same with right wing radio, sure they had advertising and sponsors, but the real money behind Limbaugh, Savage, etc... were people like to Kochs, Mercers, and others who wanted their anti government, low taxes propaganda out there.

Russia has always been out there, trying to figure out how to mess with the US's elections, but they really didn't see a way in until Trump. Trump wasn't part of the typical, anti-Russia conservative Republican party. He was a vulnerable wannabe wealthy guy, who couldn't get a loan in the US because all the money guys here knew he was a joke. Now we know that Trump and other republicans like Johnson, Cruz, etc... have no problem taking Russian money and support, but that is recent. Conservative media is mostly aligned with Russian efforts because of the agreement on the White Supremacy aspect that is currently strong in Russian government. The demographics for conservatism are shrinking so right wingers will grab onto whatever allows them to stay in power, even if it is an actual threat to the United States.

[Jerry2144]

38. i also should have included influence

I left out Russian influence. I thought I read that there are one or two former RT "reporters" on the staff of one of them.

[gab13by13]

17. I stopped calling Republicans conservatives years ago.

Now, I refuse to call them Republicans. They are GQP or Trumpers.

[Ferrets are Cool]

18. I stopped doing it. Waste of time IMO

And, there is no such thing as a conservative anymore. They are repuqs. Huge difference. Daylight and complete darkness difference.

[jalan48]

19. I get the "Something is wrong with me" whenever I engage with them.

It’s never a give and take discussion. It’s almost like a conversation with religious fanatics. They are absolutely right and if I don’t agree I’m wrong.

[Permanut]

23. My Dad was a conservative..

He's been gone since 1988, and he wouldn't recognize the Republican cult today. He voted for Eisenhower, Mark Hatfield (Oregon Governor and Senator), Tom McCall (another Oregon Governor) and others who represented classical conservative thought.

Great ideas in this thread for responding to cult members; I like to tell them that if they make a claim, they should be able to back it up with evidence - not opinion, speculation, or lies from the cult leaders.

[PortTack]

24. I am just sooo done with these kooks! Time is precious i refuse to waste it

[cutroot]

25. When ever one of my Republican friends goes off on a rant

I’ll pull out my harmonica, and play the Jimi Hendrix version of the Star-Spangled Banner. The rant usually Runs out of steam at about the same time that I’m ending the song

[BoringUsername]

27. Lol!

I bet they love that. 😆

[BoringUsername]

26. They can be hard to deal with some times

I don't engage them in political discussions, but I remain friends with conservatives because I think they need reminders that liberals are real, decent people that they know and care about. People become radical when they are in insulated groups... And then we get the crap like the uprising at the Capitol. It seems to be almost like a mental illness with some people and I think the best we can do is to not ditch them when they are at their worst. I have some friends that post a lot of right wing garbage and/or churchy b.s. on Facebook. I just don't respond to those kind of posts at all. If they really start to bother me, I snooze them for 30 days. In person, they don't seem to want to talk about politics all that much and if they ever do, I don't get into with them. I'll never change their mind with a political discussion. They will probably always be conservative, but we can still be good friends to each other and I find that to be very important.

[Cyrano]

28. Can't we just "woke" and then "cancel" them?

[Cary]

31. The problem is that they remain a real threat

If they get a next time they will be worse.

[joetheman]

33. Fear and anger are great motivators. Until they are treated in-kind, they will continue.

The are basically cowards and when they are stood up to they back down or disappear.

[Midnight Writer]

45. I act interested, then politely ask questions. You can tie them in mental knots pretty easily.

Get them to contradict themselves over and over, and keep the conversation on a friendly level.

If they get hostile or angry, disengage. Either change the subject or walk away.

[Cary]

47. I can kick them in the head.

Literaly. Miwashi geri. Jodan. I practice it every day.

[Politicub]

50. My uncle blamed George Soros for some random nonsense a couple

of family gatherings ago.

Instead of arguing, I decided beforehand I would try a different approach. I asked him, “Who is George Soros?”

He talked about him funding liberals. So I asked again, “Okay, but who is he?”

He didn’t have an answer. To my delight, he became frustrated and gave up.

I wasn’t able to ask him which liberal groups he funds, because I wanted to tell him I need to get in touch with him because I want to get my check (I know this isn’t an original retort or anything, but I was looking forward to saying it). It can be fun to be the black-sheep liberal in the family if you ask questions and lean into the crazy.

[Dawson Leery]

51. No. Trump freed them to come out of the closet.

These bigots have always existed. Between the late 1960's and 2000's it was unfashionable to dabble in overt racial/gender/sexual supremacy. Trump made it fashionable again.

[Cary]

54. And as a demagogue he brought out their authoritarian traits