Had a nice, calm fatherly discussion with an anti-vaxxer.

[LuckyCharms]

I had to get an imaging study done at a hospital.

Even though I am fully vaccinated, I wore two masks, a face shield, and gloves.

I did not sit in the waiting room to be called back for the test. I stood in the hallway, far away from others.

The tech came out to get me, walked past me, walked into the waiting room, did not social distance, and called my name. I said "I'm out here".

We walked back to the imaging room together. She moved close to me as we walked, and I kept moving away. She wore a loose fitting surgical type of mask, which was puckered open around her cheeks, allowing plenty of air to get in or escape.

We entered the darkened room, and I laid on my back on a table. She sat next to me as she performed the imaging procedure.

Her: I can't wait until things get back to normal
Me: I can't either
Her: Have you gotten the jab
Me: Yes, I'm fully vaccinated. Two Pfizer doses
Her: I haven't decided yet
Me: What is it you haven't decided on
Her: I don't know if I will get the vaccination
Me: Really
Her: Yes, I have some problems with it
Me: And what are those problems
Her: Well, they use stem cells from aborted babies to make the vaccine

Me: Well, I can't comment because I don't know too much about that
Her: How come in this day and age, they have to use stem cells from abortions
Me: Like I said, I can't comment
Her: I take care of my elderly parents. My dad is almost 90. my mom is a few years younger

Me: Are they vaccinated?
Her: One is, and one isn't
Me: I see
Me: Are you afraid of giving them Covid
Her: Oh, no! I'm very safe. I social distance all of the time, and avoid crowds of people
Me: I see

Her: I almost had an abortion when I was young
Me: Well, that's really none of my business
Her: I got off the table at the last minute, and now I have a beautiful daughter
Me: That's great

Her: You probably think I'm stupid for not getting the vaccine
Me: You have your beliefs, based on your own life experiences, so I don't have the right, nor the rudeness, to call you stupid.

Me: But, I have my own beliefs too.
Her: What are your beliefs

Me: I believe you are not safe, and you do not social distance

Her: What makes you say that

Me: Your mouth is 2 feet away from mine. You did not social distance when you walked into the waiting room. You could be giving me Covid right this minute, as we speak. Your mask is useless. It barely fits. In fact. I could be giving you Covid right now.

Her: But you are vaccinated

Me: That doesn't mean I don't have Covid, now does it. The vaccine is 95% effective, and the jury still seems to be out on the variants.

Her: Didn't they check your temperature?

Me: I could be an asymptomatic carrier

Me: You could give your parents Covid

Her: Like I said, I'm very careful

Me: You're not careful. You just think you are. Based upon what I've seen of you just in the past 15 minutes, you're not careful at all.

Me: You are worried about stem cells. Are you more worried about the cells than you are about the 600,000 Covid deaths that have already occurred, with plenty more on the way?

Her: Silence

Me: You are a God fearing woman

Her: Oh yes! very much so!

Me: Do you think God had a hand in creating this vaccine then?

Her: Silence

Me: If your parents died because of your "beliefs", do you think you would be questioning yourself for the rest of your life?

Her: Silence

Me: Do you think we will ever achieve herd immunity if enough people refuse to take the vaccine? The answer is no, we won't, and we will be living like this forever.

Me: Those are my beliefs.

We finished up, I put my clothes back on. she walked me out.

Her: Nice talking to you.

Me: You as well. stay safe.

[dalton99a]

1. She will not get the vaccine.

She relies on other people getting the vaccine to protect her

[roamer65]

22. That's why they should be shunned and separated from vaccinated people.

They could also give us variants that we cannot neutralize.

[Butterflylady]

26. You hit on a very good reason for them not getting the vaccine.

Relying on others to protect them. The strong protecting the weak. Unfortunately it will not happen that way.

[DENVERPOPS]

61. A new name for them has been coined:

Free Loaders....................

Not a whole lot different than employees who won't join the Union and pay union dues, but receive all the pay and benefits that the Union has fought for and won.

And all of these people sure don't mind the large amounts of money the Government is sending them now do they.

A few decades ago we heard about the "ME" generation that was being born. I guess they all matured........Seriously........

[Rosco T.]

84. I have a far better and more descriptive name...

The Dearly Departed

[dixiechiken1]

96. Agree with everything you say, with one small exception...

I wouldn't say they matured, I'd say they aged.

[DENVERPOPS]

99. Agree

thank you........

[AZ8theist]

90. How the hell is this ignorant asshole EVEN ALLOWED to treat patients???

I would have run the other way....fast

[DENVERPOPS]

102. You would be appalled

if you knew just how many there are out there........It is truly frightening.........

WASF

[Iggo]

100. You're right.

People looking for reasons not to get it will find them.

[Lars39]

2. You must have struck multiple nerves...

She didn't give you a passive-aggressive "Have a blessed day"

[pandr32]

3. She needed to hear what you told her

Every word.

[musette_sf]

4. The tech should be furloughed

until she gets vaccinated and the post-vax period has expired. I'm shocked that a medical facility permits a clear and present danger to public health.

[stopdiggin]

18. medical facilities all across the country

have large numbers of "opt outs." You and I may be surprised (read incredulous) about this -- but the fact is that the 'facilities' have never really pushed very hard on this.

So, yeah -- the chances that the person doing your blood draw isn't vaccinated (and doesn't intend to) is actually fairly decent.

[Tree Lady]

30. I asked new dentist office yesterday if people working

There were vaccinated. She said it was offered to all and due to HIPPA laws she couldn't say if they got it or not.

Made me think some did not but she went on and on about all the precautions they were taking.

[jaxexpat]

98. That's the one that gets my goat, bragging about all the precaution efforts they're making.

They're incapable of understanding, apparently, how a single slip up in procedure eviscerates they're entire regimen. Ultimately, if you haven't gotten sick from this thing, it's mostly luck.

No matter how many masks, shields and rubber gloves you wear. Where is the line between caution and paranoia?

[lindysalsagal]

45. I'm personal friends with a nurse who told me half the hospital nurses won't get the vaccine.

I just don't get it. Your life is based on science, and you contradict yourself about this one issue that could kill you and the people you love?

[dalton99a]

25. The healthcare industry is waiting for full FDA approval before they make the vaccination mandatory

Right now the vaccines are considered experimental. Full approval will probably happen next month

[Native]

37. That approval can't come fast enough.

[NoSheep]

39. I needed this information. I have been wondering why it isn't mandatory

[Ilsa]

93. The employer can't force workers to vaccinate

to keep their jobs.

As far as the tech in the OP goes:
So what if vaccines were made from stem cells of aborted remains? Does that mean all vaccines should be unused and no one able to get vaccinated? You don't go to Hell just because you had a vaccine.
These people are illogical and crazy.

[stopdiggin]

46. thank you. and it will become mandatory at that point? (nt)

[dalton99a]

48. Many hospitals will require them, like mandatory flu shots

No flu shot, no job

The current delay is for legal reasons

[stopdiggin]

53. super! and thanks again. good info. (nt)

[mgardener]

63. In NY state...

I volunteered in our local hospital. All staff and volunteers were offered flu shots
If you did not have the flu shot, you had to wear a mask, all of flu season while volunteering.
We had to wear name badges and had a little sticker on the badges to show we did.

[Crunchy Frog]

87. Same working as a health aide in NYS.

They were initially supposed to be mandatory but I guess enough people made a big enough stink that they dropped it.

[beaglelover]

69. Exactly, I'm in the process of being fully vaccinated, but I can understand some

people's reluctance to get the shots. They are experimental. No one really knows the long term effects of the shots. Hopefully, there are none and if there are, they are not significant. Time will tell.

[Beartracks]

92. Had a family member give the "experimental" excuse, but then spilled the beans...

... on the *real* reason: because it's all a plot by Bill Gates to reduce the Earth's population.



There was a coded message like 10 years ago, so it must be true!



==============

[babylonsister]

81. I had surgery

2 weeks ago. The pre-op nurse wasn't vaccinated because she didn't want to register for it, whatever that means. No spring chicken either; due to retire shortly.

And she was annoyed people couldn't get on a list if they didn't have a computer (I disavowed her of that notion, letting her know people could sign up via a phone call).

[BradAllison]

83. Agree

She does not GAF.

[CurtEastPoint]

5. Well done, you.

[wnylib]

47. Better than I would have done.

I lose patience too easily with people that I expect to know better. I got annoyed at CVS one day because the pharmacist was wearing a loose fitting single, surgical mask with gaps at the cheeks and had not fitted the nose clip on it. She was walking through the aisles to help out at the front register. The clerk at the register also wore a very loose fitting surgical mask. It was so loose that it kept sliding down to her chin.

I said that I expected pharmacy employees to know how to wear a mask. The pharmacist said, "What's the problem? We all wear masks." I didn't know where to begin in explaining the fit because she obviously did not understand that it was necessary to fit well, let alone why. I did not want to stay near them long enough to explain something they would ignore anyway. I paid and left as soon as possible.

[ProfessorGAC]

6. Nicer Than I Would Have Been

First, on the aborted fetus thing, i would have told her, bkuntly, some vaccines are not at all derived from fetal tissue. In fact, Pfizer & Moderna only did confirmatory testing using fetal cell lines, which can be derived sans abortions. I would have told her she is woefully uninformed & as a medical professiona1, she should be ashamed of herself.
I would have used some of your debate points as well, but in a less forgiving tone.

[calimary]

29. Good stuff. But difficult to apply to a closed mind.

[wnylib]

50. There is also the fact that, for Catholics,

Pope Francis has said that getting the vaccine is better than spreading the disease and killing people. He gave "permission" for Catholics to get vaccinated.

The only vaccine that used cells from aborted fetuses was J&J. Francis recommended the other vaccines, and J&J where the other ones are not available.

[ProfessorGAC]

75. So, I Think We've Arrived At...

...there are no good reasons to avoid the vax!

[wnylib]

79. Of course not. However, there are evangelicals

who oppose abortion and the use of stem cells from aborted fetuses, to whom the pope's words would mean nothing. I am not Catholic or evangelical, but I'm aware of the pope's message on it from news reports. Since so many evangelicals are RW, they could oppose the vacccine for political reasons, but give religious religious reasons for it.

[Haggard Celine]

7. Wow, logic?

I'll bet it's been a long time since she's heard anybody applying that in her RW media bubble. Good work. At least it might jar something loose in that logjam in her mind.

[Nevilledog]

8. Most excellent, my friend

[Rorey]

9. That stem cell thing

I may be wrong, as I often am, but it's my understanding that the development of the J&J vaccine used them, but there are none in the actual vaccine.

I invite being corrected.

That tech sounds like an absolute idiot.

[Bev54]

12. They all used stem cells to test the vaccine but

there are no stem cells from aborted fetuses in the vaccines. Bothe Pfizer and Moderna used cells grown in a lab from abortions 40 or more years ago, they are cell lines not cell tissue and are used for lab purposes.

[Rorey]

23. Thank you

I also read that the same type of development is done in many other vaccines. I imagine those cells are also used in developments of treatments for a variety of afflictions.

[ProfessorGAC]

40. To Reinforce, Here's A Cite

From Nebraskamed: (It was the first thing that popped up in Google.)

No, the COVID-19 vaccines do not contain any aborted fetal cells.

However, Pfizer and Moderna did perform confirmation tests (to ensure the vaccines work) using fetal cell lines. And Johnson & Johnson uses fetal cell lines in vaccine development, confirmation and production.

But it's important to have the full context: Fetal cell lines are not the same as fetal tissue.

Fetal cell lines are cells that grow in a laboratory. They descend from cells taken from elective abortions in the 1970s and 1980s. Those individual cells from the 1970s and 1980s have since multiplied into many new cells over the past four or five decades, creating fetal cell lines. Current fetal cell lines are thousands of generations removed from the original fetal tissue. They do not contain any tissue from a fetus.

[DeeDeeNY]

67. I guess I don't understand this because I'm pro-choice,

but even if they did use stem cells from aborted fetuses, those abortions would have occurred in the past.

[IronLionZion]

34. Here's informative reading on that if you're curious

https://www.health.com/condition/vaccines/johnson-and-johnson-fetal-cells-vaccine

The Vatican encourages people to get the vaccine regardless. Some US dioceses and churches have chosen to be stupid about it.

[Native]

38. You would be surprised how many "idiots" are in health care.

My favorite "reason" for not getting the vaccine is, "I'm only opting out because I want to have another child."

[Rorey]

43. Oh my!

It's still hard to believe that some people can be that ignorant.

[DENVERPOPS]

64. Amen to that Rorey

You know you are fighting a losing battle when they directly/indirectly start in with the Religious Right stuff.

She talks about fetal cell.......RELIGIOUS RIGHT.......

She talks about abortion.......RELIGIOUS RIGHT.....

At that point, I would have given up talking to the person........

[LetMyPeopleVote]

10. The nurse who did my colon exam prep back in December was not vaccinated

I told her about my son being in the Pfzier test and that he got his vaccinations back in August. She seemed interested in this

[stopdiggin]

11. it's really quite useless

And, as I keep reminding people, these are people that work in a medical setting! (you just can't beat the stupid out of people)

[live love laugh]

16. Yes medical people should be mandatorily vaccinated. nt

[stopdiggin]

20. never even tried (post #18) -nt-

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

13. Thank you for reporting this conversation.

I think there are far too many people like her who honestly think they are being "careful" and socially distancing when in reality they are not. That could easily account for all the people who claim they did everything right and still got Covid.

Also, taking temperatures is essentially useless. I don't object when places take mine; I don't even roll my eyes. But that, along with the excessive sanitizing of surfaces makes me a bit crazy.

[LuckyLib]

14. I have a friend who when she makes a medical appointment

says “Now, We can assume that everyone in your office is vaccinated, right?” This comes from an appointment where the med assistant admitted she “ couldn’t decide.” Friend told the doctor who said “Yeah, two of our staff have refused a vaccine.” WTF? Furlough or firing time. This has got to stop.

[Tree Lady]

32. I am doing that but they say they can't answer

Because of HIPPA surprised they tell her.

[erronis]

54. HIPAA. Having been corrected myself so many times in the healthcare world....

[Tree Lady]

76. Lol Been so long since I have been in work world

To see it..retired 5 years ago.

[Crunchy Frog]

89. I had to have a sticker on my ID indicating that I'd had my flu vax.

No HIPAA protections there!

If they're claiming "HIPAA" I'd assume it means unvaccinated employees and they don't want you to know.

Maybe offer to take your business elsewhere if that's an option.

[BobTheSubgenius]

15. "I'm wearing a mask."

"You're wearing it like a chin protector."

[Rorey]

24. ....

[Jeebo]

17. I can't believe there are front-line health care professionals resisting vaccination.

That really surprises me that this is even possible. I would think, in fact I have been unconsciously assuming, that ALL front-line health care professionals -- doctors, nurses, medical technicians, janitors who clean hospital rooms, ALL of them -- have been vaccinated by now, that this is REQUIRED of them in fact, as a condition of their employment in those kinds of venues. It just blows my mind that there could be some medical people who conduct themselves as the woman you describe does. Also that a person who does that kind of work and is supposedly educated and knowledgeable about those kinds of issues could be so willfully ignorant, so stupid.

-- Ron

[Kali]

51. ppfffttt

how many nurses and other medical folks still smoke? I'll tell you - a fucking lot of them! just because a person has some science training and may spend part of their career taking care of people sickened by their own bad choices doesn't make them any better than their patients.

[TheRickles]

19. Beautifully done. Thanks for showing us how.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

21. Lots of people get jobs in the medical field...

... for the money.

Many of them aren't particularly bright or naturally curious, like someone in academics.

I'm glad that you were respectful, though. You MIGHT have got through to her.

At least she wasn't loudly snapping gum under her mask while replying, "I don't believe in the myths of science." There was a beautician who said that to me many years ago.

[3catwoman3]

27. I would like to suggest to the aborted-fetal-cell...

...anti-vaxxers that by getting these vaccines, they could view that as a way of honoring those little lives and all the good that arose from the use of their cells. Lives not lost in vain, so to speak.

I’m not very confrontational, so this will likely never happen.

[Hekate]

36. The POPE told the faithful to get vaccinated. As soon as someone brings up "aborted babies" ...

...know you are talking to someone who’s not just an anti-vaxxer, but an anti-abortionist, & you have entered deep waters. There are no little lives to be honored, there are just some long-ago cells that have since been replicated in labs.

If you ever think it possible you might want to chat with someone who would say such a thing, be sure to prep yourself with some knowledge first. #1 Pope Francis is in favor of COVID vaccinations. #2 Each one is slightly different in origin. #3 A very quick google to medical sites (CDC, Mayo Clinic) will tell you if there is the slightest factual basis for what the young woman said, and to which vaccine it applies.

[3catwoman3]

68. I just retired (3/31/2021) from 45 years...

...as a pediatric nurse practitioner. I have done my fair share of talking to anti-vax parents and know them to be pretty well impervious to persuasion, no matter how fact-based.

My eldest cousin is the president of the National Vaccine Information Center, which is rabidly anti-fax. My now-former practice is in the process of informing non-vaccinating families that they will need to move on to a practice that is more in line with their beliefs.

I don’t think of the cell lines as “little lives lost,” but thought that spin could potentially appeal to those who might feel that way.

[Hekate]

72. Heartfelt thanks for your lifetime of service in this area

[ananda]

28. You should report her unsafe behavior to the hospital.

At the least.

[calimary]

35. Yes. She should be reported. She's a walking talking health hazard.

She evidently has no awareness of a detail as simple as six feet of distance. How, then, is she to be considered competent to work with other people in close physical proximity like that?

I’d ask to be seen by someone else in the office who takes these minimal COVID precautions seriously. This IS a potentially FATAL disease, after all.

Someone like her shouldn’t have a job that calls for her to interface so closely and personally with the public like this.

[luvtheGWN]

86. Most hospitals have a Patient Relations officer.

That's who to get in touch with about techs such as this one.

If that doesn't bring satisfaction, then let the Officer know you will be writing a letter to the Editor of your local paper.

All hospitals HATE bad publicity. Consider it your patriotic duty on behalf of your fellow citizens!

[Sentath]

31. "Her: Well, they use stem cells from aborted babies to make the vaccine" close, but not quite

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/how-cells-taken-decades-old-fetal-tissue-are-used-covid-n1242740

Looks like it was mostly effectiveness testing.

[Hekate]

33. Well done

[RobertDevereaux]

41. Superbly done.

Would that it hadn't been necessary.

[ancianita]

42. You're a model of clarity. And one has to be with, of all people, these believer medical people.

Thank you for sharing this.

If I were OSHA, I'd require all medical personnel and essential service employers to require vaccinations for whatever liability and legal reasons they can use.

[DownriverDem]

44. Folks like her

will never change. I am still living on my couch with 2 Moderna jabs given now. I hate to say this, but I just don't care if folks like that tech get Covid. I'm tired of hearing their dumb ideas.

[GopherGal]

101. I do care if she gets it

but only because she's too careless and inconsiderate to avoid spreading it to others with whom she's in contact.

[Wild blueberry]

49. You listened to her.

You asked what her hesitations are. You had a non-judgemental conversation about values.
Good work!
Thank you.

[sarchasm]

52. well done!

[erronis]

56. Wonder what would happen if we all asked our practitioners if all their staff was vaccinated?

Before we made an appointment?

I know we'd get a hemming and hawing and words about privacy, etc. But I also think it would serve notice that the patients are alert and cautious.

[ShazzieB]

88. I think I will start doing that going forward!

It never occurred to me to ask, but after reading this o.p. and most of the replies, I'm going to start. Not because I plan to argue with them or anything like that, but because I am curious. If they say their staff have not all agreed to get vaccinated, I may say something like, "Wow, I'm shocked and disappointed to hear that," and just leave it there. It may not change a danged thing, but they need to know that not everyone is happy with this kind of silliness.

[patphil]

57. Hard to comprehend her attitude.

She doesn't seem to have much concern for the safety of others; probably shouldn't be in the healthcare field.
And, I think the stem cell thing is just an excuse to justify not getting the vaccine.
I also wonder about people who fear God. I don't think God intends to have his children fear him. And yet so many people adhere to the "God fearing Christian" belief.

[spooky3]

58. Wow! I admire you. Nt

[Pas-de-Calais]

59. Majority of fatherly advice given to me

Was NOT of the calm variety

Those are the most remembered

By me at least

[Woodwizard]

60. I doubt that did a thing.

If you would like to get a look into the mindset of some of the delusional people look at the comments after Ivanka Trump posted on social media a picture and post getting the covid shot, FB, instagram or twitter these people are so far down the well they are not coming back. Really depressing reading the righteous ignorance of the anti-vaxxers.

[USALiberal]

62. Ahhh good memory.....nt

[Celerity]

65. U.S. bishops' internal memo: Catholics can take Covid-19 vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna)

https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2020/11/23/misinformation-us-bishops-catholics-covid-vaccine-abortion

[IbogaProject]

66. there is a catch 22

There is a catch 22 as the vaccines are only approved temporarily for emergency use so far. I understand employers can't require it on the job but private businesses like concert halls can require their patrons to be vaxed. I don't understand what is different between them.

[myccrider]

70. Good job. I think you made good points in a polite, non-confrontational way.

I’m not sure that I could have been so calm.

Almost no one changes their mind from one conversation. You may have added a grain of sand to the avalanche of information/social pressure/thinking that could change her mind. The fact that she said "you think I’m stupid..." may indicate that her opinion is shifting or at least is shiftable.

I spent years on a message board that argued with anti-science religionists, well, mostly religionists. Some people were just wackadoodle. We were almost always calm and polite. Virtually no one had an epiphany while we discussed/argued. But sometimes, months or even years later, someone would come back and say "remember me?" and tell us about how they thought about everything people said and/or did more research and had changed their views. Fairly often we’d get feedback from the "silent majority" who were just watching because they weren’t sure what was true. Many of them said they had solidified what they thought in favor of the science due to the facts and logical arguments presented.

You probably will never know what she decides but it was worth your effort to respond and, imo, you did a good job.

[malaise]

71. You are a good person

[LisaL]

73. Neither Pfizer nor Moderna use stem cell (from aborted babies or otherwise) to make their vaccine.

NT

[Trueblue1968]

74. she is stupid and should not ba allowed to be near public. ALL MEDICAL STAFF NEED TO BE JABBED

[NNadir]

77. Better you than me. She has the scientific knowledge of a lemon. If radiation were involved...

...I wouldn't let her touch me.

[paleotn]

78. Why can't I be this patient? Why?

Hat's off, Lucky. You and me are just built differently.

[UGADawg]

80. The Atlanta Catholic Archbishop said get the vaccine and .......

so did the Pope.
So much for abortions.

[orleans]

82. she's an idiot and an asshole to not protect her elderly parents nt

[BradAllison]

85. You did a good job

She wanted an argument. She wanted you to fly off the handle.

I would have refused to be treated by her.

[Crunchy Frog]

91. Sounds like you handled the discussion very well. I'm impressed.

Some additional information that might be helpful when dealing with a "pro-life" anti vaxer is that pregnant women who get Covid are more likely to suffer miscarriage or stillbirth.

Also some pregnant women become critically ill, and the babies have to be delivered prematurely, and spend time in the NICU without the comfort of their mother's presence, or may end up with no mother at all.

Is putting pregnant women and their fetuses at that kind of risk really consistent with her pro-life beliefs? She could be the direct cause of a fetus dying.

Just something else for her to think about.

[FakeNoose]

94. It seems to me you handled this well

When I'm confronted in such a conversation, I try to remind them to be sure their life insurance is paid up. And I remind them to make sure their current will is written, notarized, and on file.

Does it make a difference? Probably not.

[Treefrog]

95. I don't think I've ever had a political conversation with an x-ray tech.

Or any conversation that went on longer than a few sentences. Did you tell her that Pfizer and Moderna do NOT use stem cells?

[arlyellowdog]

97. Was this at Virginia Hospital Center?

Because I just had a mammogram and the tech said she wasn’t vaccinated.