The level of political immaturity here, from *** some *** is quite disappointing, and unfortunately

[OnDoutside]

not that uncommon. You can have many valid disagreements with Cheney and her father, but you can have those disagreements and still agree with her on the fundamental core statement that American democracy is under serious threat. It doesn't have to be either/or.

Imagine Churchill or Roosevelt not working with Stalin to fight Hitler because he was a Communist dictator ? They did it because it was all hands on deck. Democracy in America is another all hands on deck moment.

There's every likelihood that if Trumpism isn't defeated within the GOP, an intelligent Trump will come along and not make the same mistakes Trump made.

[uponit7771]

1. We can acknowledge Cheney is a snake and recognize (not applaud) her for accepting reality

[OnDoutside]

4. Yup, or recognize a line that not even a Cheney won't cross, despite having been contributory

characters in the shit that the GOP finds itself today.

[PJMcK]

20. Well, at least she's standing up for Democracy

Unlike McCarthy, et al.

[DENVERPOPS]

48. Has anyone seen or heard

"DICK" standing up for his daughter and her taking a stand for true Democracy like the old style Republicans????????

W, Dick, and Rummy sent this whole new direction into warp speed in 2000 thru 2008.....after HW, Dick, and Rummy firmly planted the foundation for this entire mess in 1980 thru 1992......

People talk about Trump worshippers.....As I remember the 1980>>>> republicans were just as much "true believers", and "worshippers", as well as a huge bunch of "Reagan Democrats...........

I became outspoken in 1979 when HW & Cheney committed treason by fucking with the election. And really started shooting my mouth off when they committed treason again by selling arms to Iran that were used against us, killing a couple of dozen sailors in the U.S. Navy.
Then, after the U.S. Congress specifically ordered them not to take part in the Contra debacle, HW & Cheney & Rummy went ahead and did it anyway, another act of treason.

In 1980's, when I talked about all the tons of stuff HW and minions were doing that were trashing the middle class and Democracy right then, and the ton's of things they were doing that would be trashing Democracy and destroying the middle class down the road, people looked at me like I was some crazed, fanatical nut job.........

Well folks, enjoy your life as it is now and what awaits you in the future..............

A great title for a book about the last 40 years: WHILE THE NATION SLEPT

[NoSheep]

71. THIS

[DENVERPOPS]

82. Dick isn't the type to make payback public

DeSantis and the other prick probably won't figure it out when they meet with their demise and will wonder what happened when it does.............

Dick Cheney is the last person in the Republican Party I would want to piss off by screwing with his up & coming daughter.....

I guess we will just have to wait and see. With Dicks connections to the intelligence community, we might see some shit come forth about all these assholes being involved with Epstein and their sexual adventures..?????

[agingdem]

9. we Dems have a really bad habit of showering high praise

on any Republican who has a moment of lucidity...Cheney voted for Trump...she's not a goddamn saint...

[NewHendoLib]

12. this

[StarfishSaver]

34. Thank you

[Harker]

43. That's how they continue to press on to their goal of one party rule.

Post-Trumpsky, Bush II looks like a benign statesman.

We need to nullify the republican't self-redemption system.

[PatSeg]

49. I agree, she is not a "goddamn saint"

that's for sure. Basically I can't stand her, but when she is right I will acknowledge it and will applaud her on that particular position. Except for Trump, everyone has some redeeming quality that emerges now and then. This time, it came from a highly unlikely source and I am glad there are at least a few who are willing to speak the obvious truth. I am really surprised and saddened, however, that there are so few.

Is one's political career really so important that they will do or say anything? Including publicly supporting a vile monster?

[MLAA]

65. She waited until she saw handwriting was obvious and on the wall that impotus is done...and is

now positioning herself for a run in 2024

[stopdiggin]

86. Ahem ... a run for what?

She will be lucky to retain her seat in the House. (and it could well be she won't try) If you're suggesting Oval office -- an anti-Trump ticket (by anyone) is quite a bit farther out than 24.
(my opinion)
----- -----

[MLAA]

94. I sure didn't say she would be successful! Haha, but she surely has designs on the Oval Office.

Hopefully with all the repug assholes none of them will be successful for a long long time.

[Sherman A1]

2. My, my.....

Thank You for Your lecture.........

[OnDoutside]

3. My, my pleasure....

[Sherman A1]

24. I hope you don't believe that opinions posted

On an online discussion board carry much weight with reality. As long as folks don’t violate the TOS they are entitled to post any opinion that they choose. All of them together adding in $3.00 will buy you a cup of coffee ☕️.

[Hortensis]

63. :) I like to think most would strive for a greater level

of responsibility, maturity as you put it, in their posts if they believed they could and needed to matter. At least a bit.

Or in some cases be intimidated by the responsibility into silence, which actually strikes me as possibly the most thoughtful response.

[Dave Bowman]

88. +1

[Harker]

5. An intelligent Trumpsky...

the mind boggles!

[Escurumbele]

23. Josh Hawley is an example...This post is 100% correct

Hawley has learned a lot the past four years, he knows how to play it both ways, he is a natural liar, and a very dangerous one.

[magicarpet]

33. Tom Cotton was incubated in the same Fascist mold as Hawley.

They are both far more photogenic than djt,... both with pedigree educations,.. both dream of the day to be Fuhrer of the AmeriKKKan Fascist ReThug Party.

[Harker]

40. I'm not certain that a smarter Trumpsky is the greatest threat.

In four years his base will have largely moved on, his name will be poisonous, and any wannabes are going to have to create their own cult from scratch.

It won't be hard at all to find a smarter Trumpsky, I think, but there can't be many more mendacious, self serving, or as criminal.

I've been saying that they couldn't get any worse since Nixon, so my record for predicting republican'ts course is abysmal.

[The Mouth]

66. True, but

He has shown that racist, xenophobic Nationalism plays very very well with the states richest in Electoral votes, and pretty well in even 'blue' areas where people think Clinton and Obama sold us and our jobs out to overseas manufacturing.

He's a bore, a jerk, and an egotist who has done much more damage to himself than anything WE did to him. Joe Biden didn't win, Trump LOST with how own sheer obnoxiousness and incompetent handling of Covid 19. Had there not been a pandemic and if he'd had someone to prevent or edit the most vile of his tweets he's still be in the oval office.

We lucked out that he self-destructed. This time.

[Harker]

67. Sounds odd to say that seven million votes was too close...

but yes, we're lucky, and it's no thanks to the electoral college.

So, what do you think we'll see in the next challenger? One who disavows Trumpsky, one who carries the torch, or something other?

Could be a crypto-Trumpist, I suppose.

[The Mouth]

73. I think one smart enough to get the working class

Trump had an interesting strategy. People ARE pissed. Democratic and Republican administrations alike have encouraged outsourcing. NAFTA fucked us badly, and many Republicans both conservative and moderate view George W Bush as a complete dolt for getting us into the wars. The fact is Trump defeated himself with his own words and actions.

If it were me, playing 'enemy actor'- I'd propose a Devil's bargain or a series thereof:

a GOOD national healthcare plan combined with getting rid of all people of undocumented status. Free, good healthcare for everyone who can show citizenship or legal resident status.

Isolationism and getting out of Europe, Korea, etc and using that same money for infrastructure. Skimming a lot of it, of course, for cronies and oneself, but still "honest graft" as Plunkett of Tamney Hall would have called it.

Environmental protection - or at least the appearance of it - combined with Nationalism, blame China and India for global warming; and the Chinese *are* building coal plants like crazy.

and genuinely, or at least with practical pragmatism supporting higher wages and benefits combined with xenophobia aimed at the Chinese, Indians, and Muslims and pitching this strategically to the areas heavy in POC.

I think those are the kinds of things a smarter, if every bit as autocratic a politician as Trump could do to cut deeply into the groups that elect Democrats.

And one with the appearance of dignity and decorum, able to at least fake grace and avoid petulance yet utilize Trump's one real innovation- almost immediate response to any attack. I mean one thing he did well and uniquely- rapid response. Someone would say something stupidly negative about President Obama and two or three days later the White House would release a carefully worded, factual statement rebutting the attack. Say something negative about Trump and 20 minutes later he's counter attacked- crudely, inaccurately, but with vehemence and his counter attack is retweeted 30 million times in the next hour or two; game changing tactics.

[Harker]

74. I'm glad you're on our side.

If anyone could suddenly start selling ideas they've spent decades demonizing, it's the republican'ts.

"Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia."

"We've always been concerned about the environment."

"Free healthcare is a good thing."

Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate it!

[Oppaloopa]

89. The Florida governor is a smarter Trump

[Harker]

90. Trump's the dumbest Trump.

There's competition, though.

[Haggard Celine]

6. Yes, we need all the help we can get.

It's probably more important for Republicans to speak against Trump than it is for Democrats. This country needs two parties, and it's very dangerous when one of them is consumed by extremism. I don't have to like the Republicans who are speaking out, but they are allies for now in the battle to remove Trump from our politics.

[empedocles]

8. Agree

[ShazzieB]

15. Absolutely.

[Tiger8]

47. Yes. Democracy Political Opponents

Political debate is healthy, so long as the general goals of “Life Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness” for everybody is generally the same.

Different ways to get there. Debate it out and let the voters decide. That’s Democracy.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

75. just because you said the country needs two parties

does not mean we need a party of conservatism or trumpism.

we could have democratic party and a more progressive left leaning party too,ya know.

[ck4829]

106. There are plenty of parties in this country, the Republican Party is not entitled to anything

It's not on us if they get their act together or not.

[Haggard Celine]

108. My point was that we need an opposition.

They don't have to be Republicans, they can be Libertarians or whatever. But anytime any party is in control, it's best if there's somewhat of an opposition to keep the ruling party honest. In our system, if you don't have opposing views, you have excesses which will steer us off course.

[Blues Heron]

7. Trump's is the best thing that happened the Booshes and Cheenees

Total cover for their war crimes. That said, I love watching the Romney/Cheenee vs. Trumpoids cage match.

[Maxheader]

10. Well cheny, all I can say is...

when you eat fried chicken your gonna get greasy....

[Hugin]

18. This whole debacle reminds me of an old joke to which the punch line is...

"I bet that guy over there $1,000 I could get you to clean up this mess with a smile on your face."

So, I'm staying out of it. I have some important fishing to do, if anyone is looking for me.

Yeh, greasy.

[PJMcK]

21. Great joke!

I don't have a glass eye, though.

[bucolic_frolic]

11. Liz won't get with the program her father sired

Total business domination of politics, total deregulation for oil and gas industry to exploit the environment, total war against Democrats and non-fascists.

This is only a Trump vs democracy moment in overt terms. It's really just another WMD moment. Liz is mistaking patriotism for partisanship. She only talks about principle and process, never about dictatorship. She is mincing her words carefully, if you choose to listen.

[gab13by13]

13. I totally agree with the premise of this thread,

It is much more important for Republicans to break away from MF45, for one thing, it takes votes away from the MF45 party.

[jaxexpat]

19. It is in that same vein that I wish Madame Cheney luck in her enterprise.

Her effort to join with other like-minded Republicans to condemn and split away from Trumps QOP is both rational and useful for the protection of democracy.

Every little bit helps. So long as her real motives are not promoted or even taken seriously by Democrats, this is all a very good eventuality.

[gab13by13]

29. In a nut shell,

Dick Cheney lied us into war, however, it was executed by the books, by the law. Every House Democrat save one, voted to give W the authority to invade Iraq, with an autocracy they don't need that vote.

[questionseverything]

100. The torture was criminal

N/t

[JI7]

14. Yes, There are many things and times to go after Cheney on but right now is not one of those

I also disagree with propping her up as a hero but either way the ones we need to go after right now are Trump and those pushing his shit .

[pecosbob]

16. I'd rather throw gasoline on their self-immolation

[NewEnglandAutumn]

27. BAD idea

that is exactly how Germany ended up with Hitler.

[agingdem]

31. Ok...enough!

my parents were Holocaust survivors (Auschwitz)..yes, we learn from the past but not every act of political suicide is Germany and Hitler...

[agingdem]

28. after years of watching we Dems eat our own

it gives me great satisfaction to watch the party of Trump devouring itself...until Cheney (and Murkowski) "turn" Independent and caucus with the Dems (never happen!), a House (and party) on fire is ok with me...I've waited a long time for this...

[ShazzieB]

17. I agree with every word of this.

The Stalin analogy is a good one. All hands on deck indeed.

[obamanut2012]

22. 100% agree

Well said.

[no_hypocrisy]

25. Liz Cheney reminds me of Robert Taft in "Profiles in Courage"

He spoke out against ex post facto trials of the Nazis, if only because it was unfair and inconsistent with the principles of the U.S. Constitution. While the Nazis should have been held accountable for their crimes, Taft believed the forum and the means were wrong. Sure it was unpopular and he risked his political career on his views, but he said them anyway.

https://publicism.info/history/profiles/12.html

Liz Cheney spoke up for democracy. That means plenty to me. I can continue to criticize her for other stands.

[Skittles]

99. what, praytell, was Liz doing while Trump was prez

oh....riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

[quickesst]

26. ******

I don't get someone who mistakes praise for a single action as overall adulation. As much as I disagree with her politics, I wish she had more support from her republicon colleagues in the effort to rid this country of trumpism once and for all. I feel extremely comfortable in my belief that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris agree.

[NewEnglandAutumn]

30. The GOP is at a crisis point.

They have 2 choices.
-split apart (which will be good for Democrats)
-decide to hold together in order to be able to stand up to Democrats (which will ultimately result in a fascist government)

If they split there will be a period of more progressive measures but in time conservative democrats will join moderate republicans and the pendulum will once again begin to swing a bit back to the right.

If they don't split. We are done. The great experiment set forth over 200 years ago will have failed.

[oldsoftie]

46. Split or not, many GOP members are done with trump

They may end up "split" by inaction of a large number
As many often say, NOT voting is almost like voting FOR the other candidate

[roamer65]

57. The breakup of the former GOP party is essential for democracy to survive.

It must break into a Trumpist Party and an anti-Trumpist Party.

You are right.

[Scrivener7]

32. I agree that we can disagree with Cheney and admire her stance. But you could have

said that without chastising people here.

And PS: about those who simply do not like or trust Cheney no matter what her stance is on the Big Lie? you can disagree with those people on that issue and still agree with them on most Democratic ideals and policies. According to your criterion, your inability to do that makes you immature and disappointing.

Hmmmmm.....

[OnDoutside]

52. On the contrary, I am merely pointing out that it is disappointing and immature. That's not to

chastise, but rather to express surprise at the black & white nature of some. As regards your rather inaccurate tangential point, were I to take their attitude, I would never forgive them, however, I am just as likely to agree with them on other subjects, so no you are not correct. It's a long road without a turn, and to be so hard and fast as a rule, isn't the best outlook to have.

[Jilly_in_VA]

69. It's frequently, but not always

the younger people who tend to be more "black and white" in their political ideology. I was too---when I was younger. As I grew older, I began to see the nuances in things and began to understand that even though someone like a Liz Cheney espoused stances I generally find offensive, she also appreciates democracy and the rule of law under the Constitution. She may be a horrible conservative but she is not a Fascist and she refuses to join these Fascists in bowing to their orange LOSER god. For that I applaud her. Otherwise I can't stand her, just like I can't stand her daddy. Anyone who doesn't appreciate the difference between the two sides may need to mature a bit in their ideology.

FWIW, I don't like Joe Walsh either, but he has a lot of good things to say if you happen to follow him on Twitter (I do). He also is a strong supporter of democracy, the Constitution, and the rule of law. I also follow Evan McMullin and George Conway. Y'all may not like any of these people, but they are worth following anyway even if you don't necessarily agree with them politically. If you only listen to one side, you become like the Talibangelicals. I don't think anyone here wants to be like them.

[Scrivener7]

83. Lol. Calling people immature and disappointing is about as chastising as can be.

[stopdiggin]

93. I'm criticizing (in common w/ the original OP)

the people in our camp that seem to be pretty much incapable of the thing you suggest ..

"disagree with Cheney and admire her stance."

The denizens that cannot allow (even grudgingly) for a single point ... -Yeah, it leaves me with questions too. Maybe a few of us deserve a little chastisement.

[randr]

35. Her stand against the maddness must be recognized for what it is

Bravery and patriotism.

[certainot]

36. the bar is really low. basically.... thanks for telling some truth cheney....

[StarfishSaver]

37. The immaturity and naivete is in the throes of affection and admiration for Cheney

some people have spun themselves into because she's doing what any sentient human being who cares about the country would do - and what contains little political or personal risk to herself or her ambitions.

Yes, she's doing the right thing and deserves much credit for that. But it doesn't change who she is, what's she's done or what she's going to continue to do as long as she's in any position of power. The Cheney worship on this site - including people proposing that Democrats donate to her or that Biden appoint her to the cabinet - is way over the top and suggests a degree of naivete and myopic thinking that is pretty jarring to see on a progressive discussion board.

[oldsoftie]

42. Havent seen it, but it'd be HILARIOUS if biden did something with her

Although it would just cement the opinion of the trumpers.

[LymphocyteLover]

38. just wait until a smart Trump comes along and then we're really in trouble.

I keep hearing people say "just wait until a smart Trump comes along and then we're really in trouble".

I understand the fear but I don't think this is so easy.

First of all, Trump's idiocy was a feature, not a bug. It's part of his whole authoritarian schtick. It was a part of his appeal to his followers, and they didn't think he was idiotic at all. Also, it's not clear to me that he was stupid per se, but more extremely intellectually lazy with no curiosity beyond his immediate needs.

Second of all, despite all his flaws, Trump was a master of propaganda. he wasn't stupid about getting his message out.

Third, you can't be both racist and smart. Trump was a master of walking this line of being dumb enough to be racist yet smart enough to get his message out effectively to his followers.

Fourth, I do think Trump was sui generis. He was a unique figure in our popular culture, with decades of exposure in the media and a well-known playboy billionaire. I don't see anyone right now who can match his same "appeal".

[Martin Eden]

39. It would help if you gave some examples of "immaturity"

Not necessarily calling out anyone by name, but in general the type of post you would characterize as such.

I don't read enough of the posts to have a handle on this, so I'm being sincere in asking for clarification on what exactly you're referring to.

While I agree it's not politically smart for our Democratic leadership to attack Cheney at this time, in a forum like this I see nothing wrong in pointing out that the daughter of Dick is a hard right conservative and a fierce opponent of nearly everything we hope to change for the better in how our government serves the interests of the American people and the sustainability of Earth's environment.

Of course, nothing can be accomplished if we lose our democracy to the fascism taking over the Republican Party. However, I think it's worth asking whether our long term goals can best be achieved by propping up hard right paleoconservatives or letting Trumpism destroy the GOP.

[OnDoutside]

53. I think you have a good handle on it already, to be fair.

Some close their minds to not only Cheney, but anyone from the right, even during this existential threat to democracy in America. I agree it's perfectly right to point out who she is and who she represents, but there are plenty of threads/posts from people saying basically "She's this, so fuck her, I am not listening to anything she has to say or do". That's the bit that I find disappointing.

As regards your last sentence, that would be a really good conversation to have, though I don't think there is any benefit for any Democrat to prop up an old GOPer, if there isn't a base within the party to defend them. That said, it should be a concern that those who represent of the old mainstream GOP are being silenced/expelled, because what's left but a pure fascist party with evil openly unleashed. Maybe that would finally push moderate Republicans finally to side with Democrats but it's a big gamble.

[oldsoftie]

41. Well, you KNOW there's a lot of self righteousness here

Its 100% or 0.
God help you if you present facts that arent popular.

[stopdiggin]

95. notice that too?

----- ---------- --- -----

[Dave in VA]

44. Agreed

Thanks for sharing.

[lonely bird]

45. OK, it is good that Cheney says what she says

Unfortunately, she has backed most of the orange idiot’s actions in terms of legislation.

So, yay for her standing and saying Trump lost. Beyond that she doesn’t give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut about anything Biden and Dems want. She simply wants a functioning obstructionist Republican Party. Her fear is not for the country but rather that the Republican Party may be reduced to meaninglessness.

Yes, compliment her for what she says re: the election.

But do not forget for one minute that she doesn’t give a shit about ANYTHING the Dems want.

[PatrickforB]

50. This is an interesting and thoughtful post.

Trumpism is indeed a wave of destruction that began, if you think about it, with Powell's '71 manifesto, a couple of horrible Supreme Court decisions allowing dollars to be free speech and corporations to use dollars as free speech, and the death of the Fairness Doctrine.

The problem with the Cheney's is they represent the forces of neoconservatism (American empire), and the oligarchs, who are trying to brainwash us all into being rugged individualists instead of caring about and for one another, so they can systematically strip our treasury under the mantra - deregulate, privatize, and gut government programs. This stream of thought, neoliberalism, is extremely destructive to anyone but oligarchs.

The shorthand of this is the Cheney's are part of the forces of oligarchy and American empire, and as such are a large part of the rise of Trumpism. Didn't Grover Norquist say that the ideal is to have a stupid president who would merely sign laws a Republican Congress sent him?

That is what they thought they had in Trump, and why Pence, the great hypocritical 'christian' liar, kept saying, 'Stay the course, stay the course' all the way through the nightmarish darkness of the Trump 'administration' of wreckers.

So now the Cheneys, Mitt Romney, and a few others, like the mythical Dr. Frankenstein, look upon this monster they themselves helped bring into being, lament the insanity, and yearn for us to go back to being a republic. Ironic, isn't it?

(on edit, corrected grammer and tense in last paragraph)

[stopdiggin]

96. another thoughtful post

not speaking for the OP -- but I'd bet they agree with just about everything you said. I do. And never entertained for a second that either Cheney was 'my kinda guy.'

[flying_wahini]

51. The KKKGQP is assuming that Trump will be a viable candidate in '24.

He’s going to be even more repugnant than he is now.
Trump will be the persona non grata
and they will be running away; not towards him.
I believe that after the mid terms
and some insurrection trials they will change their tunes.
The cult of personality for Trump will
dissolve for the new GOP candidates; Cruz,Abbott and the other slimeballs they love.

[Handler]

54. Not to be trusted

Liz has demonstrated time and time again she is nothing more than a GOP snake. Four years of carrying water for trump is not easy to forget.

[roamer65]

56. She's now a useful tool in the war on the Trumpist Party.

Nothing more.

[Joinfortmill]

58. Agree

[msfiddlestix]

59. I'm only stunned she has displayed remarkable intellectual honesty and courage.

In the face of the lunacy she's surrounded by. It's unfortunate that her party's leadership invited them in and keep holding them up.

I'm not one for dismissing her courageous fight against our enemies within. We share the same enemy.

I'm not hopeful that I'll live to see the end of this bizarre period in our political culture, but I believe in supporting the fight none the less, and breaking bread with unlikely allies for a righteous cause is absolutely the only way to victory.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

60. Agree.

[treestar]

61. Yes, and she and her father aren't the same person

She may be less radical than he is.

If anything, he is responsible for trying to increase the power of the executive branch, and using 911 to do it, and his approach was a lot more competent than the Orange Dictator's approach. We don't know that she agreed with all that. Orange Hitler thought there were no limits on his power. Darth knew there were and tried legally to get fewer limits on them. He's the bigger danger. But she should stand on her own.

[Mr.Bill]

62. Just keep reminding yourself

that she voted to end Obamacare everytime they voted on it.

[BobTheSubgenius]

64. It's entirely possible "that person" might come along, anyway.

Clever enough to be offering the same mouldy, old false promises and illogical "solutions," but able to frame it all in a way that sounds both fresh and reasonable. The left needs to be ready for THAT, no matter what. It will not be a "cat-herding" moment.

[Caliman73]

68. Why would we imagine not fighting along side the Soviets during WWII.

The WWII allies thing is a poor analogy. We have fought with many countries who were not aligned with our political ideals during hot wars, then turned around and fought them once the common enemy was defeated.

This is a different situation. This is an internal struggle within a party that has reached a natural conclusion to its ideological path.

You seem fail to understand that the GOP is where it is specifically because Conservatism is a bankrupt ideology that given any amount of latitude, will end in the type of Demagoguery of Trump.

It doesn't matter if Trump is "defeated". There will ALWAYS be another person ready to jump in and try their hand at becoming a fascist because Conservatism lends itself to fascism. It is built into the ideology.

If Cheney were to win this fight, the stupid and obvious authoritarianism of Trump might fade away, but it would just give way to the more subtle authoritarianism inherent in Conservatism.

I recognize that Cheney is fighting to defeat something that she may see as detrimental to her party and maybe even to the country. I just differ in the opinion that he party is worth saving. If it is one thing you can count on Conservatives for, it is over reach. They think they are the "chosen", "the Elect" and that they deserve to rule. So, they over reach and then they exile themselves to a lesser status for awhile while liberals/progressives rebuild. My desire is for them to destroy themselves in a right wing civil war and then for conservatism to be weakend to the point where it is not a viable ideology. I know that is naive, but I think that it would be a benefit to the world if right wing politics were destroyed.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

77. I agree with you

The entire rotten to its bones republican belief system of the right wing needs to be amputated from our system because it gives our country septicemia.

sooner the whole concept of conservatism dies the better.

[Caliman73]

81. Thanks.

I don't even mind the reluctance to embrace rapid progressivism, which is claimed to be a tenet of conservatism. Change is scary for many people and there are traditions that work to give a base of operations to people and cultures. The thing is that change is inevitable. Feminists want to end patriarchy (broad overgeneralization). I am a man, and I have benefited from patriarchy. I have also suffered because of patriarchy. Does a change in the system of patriarchy scare me? A little, if I am being honest, because it is a system I know how to navigate. Will a system free from oppression based on gender roles be beneficial? Probably. I am sure that not having to live up to an ideal of masculinity or to judge people based on ideals of femininity would free up the ability to just interact as people on a genuine level.

Same thing with Conservatism. We do want to be cautious with societal change. That isn't the issue with conservatism though. Their belief in this stupid hierarchy, which again, is based on historical White, male, Christian oppression of others, is the problem and it forms the core of their beliefs about everything else. That needs to be destroyed.

[meadowlander]

70. When your opponent agrees with you, shut up and let them.

I've never understood the impulse when someone who actually has sway in GOP circles and can convince other similar-minded people to turn around and see things from our perspective says something helpful, so many Democrats insist that that is the moment to pile on and attack the helpful Republican instead of the fascist-wannabes they are calling out.

See also:
The Lincoln Project
Michael Steele
Nicole Wallace
Colin Powell
George Will

It's so counter-productive. It discourages other Republicans from publicly acknowledging sane arguments and it undermines people who could be the most persuasive voices for our cause amongst the other side.

I mean among all of Trump's many unforgivable crimes, he has made me be on the same side as George Will. But in the moment that that almost inconceivable situation is occurring, that is the moment to attack Trump, not George Will.

[KG]

72. just coz she found a couple lies she couldn't abide doesn't make her any kind of hero.

or ally.

[BannonsLiver]

76. A lot of people need it to be black and white 100 percent of the time

They can't handle situations that aren't like playing cops and robbers back in the day. It has to be 100 percent binary 100 percent of the time or it just trips them up.

I've read over and over again that "this doesn't make Cheney a hero."

I couldn't agree more. Then again, I'm not aware of anyone here who was saying that. It's those kinds of bizarre, knee jerk reactions that take on an "I'm embarrassed for you" kind of feel for me.

[carpetbagger]

78. We prob said the same as we fought on Stalin's side

We're all in crazyland these days.

[Gore1FL]

79. She is one of the people that put it there.

If it were to her benefit, she would happily let it be in jeopardy. She has a voting record. She is no hero to the country or Democracy at large. She's be the "smarter Trump" if it suited her.

Liz Cheney is no hero.

[Skittles]

97. THANK YOU

it's quite jarring to see someone LAUDED for what any freaking PATRIOT should do

[MOMFUDSKI]

80. The only thing good about Liz

is she is driving the wedge right into the middle of that foul party. She deserves no applause for ANYTHING she did up until right now. So, OK, pass the popcorn and watch the show.

[zaj]

84. 150,991% this!

We need to think strategically, not emotionally.

[stopdiggin]

85. I agree with your premise

and I'm still unsure what I am being exhorted to do. As a Democrat -- how to I go about "defeating" Trumpism with the GOP?

I can easily see Cheney as a (temporary) comrade in arms .... - Am I going to send money or 'organize' for her? Not anytime soon.

----- ---- ---- -----

[wellst0nev0ter]

87. You do NOT under any circumstances

go and "hand it" to Cheney for being a broken clock.

She became a goop by choice, and now she's being eaten by the snakes she lay with.

[Dave Bowman]

91. Churchill was a monster

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/03/09/when-will-there-be-a-film-on-winston-churchill-the-barbaric-monster-with-the-blood-of-millions-on-his-hands.html

"When will there be a film on Winston Churchill, the barbaric monster with the blood of millions on his hands?"

[LudwigPastorius]

92. "...if Trumpism isn't defeated within the GOP"

It's over. The GOP is the Trump party now. The Never Trumpers aren't going to magically wrest it away from the cultists.

And, Re: Cheney, She's right that Trump is lying about the election, but she is still a horrible person who is actively working against the interests of Americans who aren't rich, straight, and white.

Cheney voted for Trump for president, then proceeded to cast votes for Trump's agenda 92.9% of the time. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/liz-cheney/

Kids in cages wasn't too much, "very fine people on both sides" wasn't too much, 22,000+ verified lies weren't too much, 400,000 American coronavirus victims weren't too much, 2 impeachments weren't too much for her.

So, forgive me for not feeling the need to applaud Liz Cheney for merely acknowledging the reality of the outcome of the election when she, in her position of power, was one of the ones who enabled that lying, orange, son-of-a-bitch other guy.

[Skittles]

98. SHE (and her fucked up father) HELP TO BRING THIS ABOUT

THAT is the part YOU are missing

[ChubbyStar]

105. Indeed, thanks darling!

Going on day 66 and feeling pretty damn good.

[summer_in_TX]

101. Exactly. I admire people of any political stripe who have the courage to do

the right thing.

She is doing it at a great cost. Loss of power, political allies, friends. Perhaps it works out well for her, perhaps she loses her seat. No guarantees.

The OP has it exactly right: Democracy is in an "all hands on deck moment" and it will take all of us from across the political spectrum to truly defeat it.


Violence is still seething just under the surface, doubling down on allegiance to Dear Leader. We are far from being out of the woods as far as a civil war goes.'

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." I had no idea I'd have common ground with the likes of David Frum, Bill Kristol (Bill Kristol!!), Joe Walsh, and Liz Cheney. I can and do appreciate their commitment to democracy and the rule of law. And I totally disagree with them on a whole host of other things. That, in my book, puts them head and shoulders above the Trump cultists.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

102. This is sort of like praising Romney...

You know that you will soon regret it.

Second I am not even sure I believe her, she is trying to save the pig after the bacon has been cooked. She and her family have been at the trough for quite a while and she is barely calling out her crew, I repeat barely. Quit acting like she has principles, she has a moment. McCain has a great moment as well, but he also used his job to enrich himself first.

[betsuni]

103. There was a lot of panic about Never Trumpers and the Lincoln Project.

A positive comment about their work to defeat Trump meant you were an infidel, you'd become a Republican or so stupid you wanted to hand over the keys to the Democratic Party. A lot of alarums over nothing. Just like this.

I don't care for black/white good/evil pure/immoral hate/worship all/nothing thinking. It's used to attack Democrats.

[OnDoutside]

109. Funny you should say that, I'm just watching a conversation between Reed Galen and Stuart Stevens

(from the 40:30 min point

?t=2400 ) and he puts his finger on it that for Democrats to beat what the Republican Party now is (threat to Democracy), they have to be prepared to accept help from, and give help to, quarters that they would not otherwise have considered going near.

[grantcart]

104. The most laughable comment is that she isn't really showing courage

She just put a target on her back in a shooting gallery with several hundred thousand deranged well armed nut jobs.

[quakerboy]

107. Yes, trusting a republican is a drastic act of political immaturity

Its all an act to try and shore up the republican vote.

Mark my words, once its actually election time

Trump will be saying "yeah, this is my party, my supporters better get out and vote for republicans to take back the house and senate so they dont throw me in prison."

And Cheney will be saying "yeah, the *real* republican party is still here, we fight on, better get out and vote for republicans to take back the house and senate so we can bring back real conservatism"