General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsLet's discuss second-guessing the CDC...
For the past year, we've been calling out people who questioned or disputed the science-based directives on how to deal with the COVID pandemic (sheltering at home, avoiding groups, wearing masks, hand-washing etc.). Yesterday, CDC updated their guidance on the need to wear masks in most cases. What did we get?
My humble opinion. CDC is lifting Mask and social distancing too soon.
Why didn't the CDC just say if your state hits 70% vaccination
Thoughts pls on the CDC just saying fully vaccinated people no longer need to wear masks...
You are free to wear a mask, or continue staying and working at home if you want to. But if you're questioning the timing and guidance from the scientists, perhaps ask yourself why?
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)out of genuine concern for their safety and the safety of their loved ones. People have every right to do so without being second guessed.
and I would add this......
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215429282
Demsrule86
(68,593 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)It is not surprising after all the conservative anti maskers weve dealt with that wearing masks has been internalize as a liberal value and it is hard to give that up regardless of what evidence shows us.
Ive been as vigilant as anyone about following science and the CDC guidelines because of it. But for a month Ive been waiting for this change as it becomes obvious how good the vaccines are. Masks are nothing but a mitigation tool. Once I was safe I could not wait to stop wearing them.
Hugin
(33,164 posts)They were actively dictating what those guidelines should be.
I know it's a nuance, but, that is why people who put caution above convenience are cautiously approaching the new guidelines.
tanyev
(42,572 posts)Questioning the CDC and continuing to wear a mask is no one's problem but the mask wearer.
cinematicdiversions
(1,969 posts)They are just saying it is mo longer necessary.
Klaralven
(7,510 posts)Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)Side questioning the CDC or anything else for that matter. I was responding to the OP.
Mister Ed
(5,940 posts)There's always room for concern that a government agency like this is being influenced not purely by science, but also by political pressure.
The pressure exerted on the CDC by the Trump administration was heavy-handed and plain to see. There's every reason to believe that the Biden administration would not exert political pressure on the CDC, but I imagine that for many, some residual wariness may remain.
consider_this
(2,203 posts)I am more interested in science than CDC recommendations. As pointed out in other threads, and my own recollection, there were several times they gave guidelines that did not align with the science (masks not needed, masks not protective of wearer, etc.) so it is not a surprise that for many they are not the be all and end all of reliable guidance, so therefore doubts are not surprising.
Response to consider_this (Reply #11)
Name removed Message auto-removed
consider_this
(2,203 posts)How were the statistics of breakthrough cases (very low, like 150 out of a million) evaluated. Was the statistical group people who had the shot and went about with no masks and social distancing, or were they also doing those protective measures? My guess it is the latter, which if so, give a false efficacy statistic to the vaccine alone. If I can hear that the statistic was derived from people whose only protective measure was the vaccine, then i will personally feel safe following the CDC guideline.
Of course as many others here, I have no doubt that this will allow the 'mask hole' continent to run amok with impunity. I can see that as a real concern for the public health in general.
mucifer
(23,553 posts)Why it matters: Real-world evidence continues to show coronavirus vaccines are effective at keeping people from dying and out of hospitals. The Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines have been found to be 95% and 94% effective, respectively, at preventing symptomatic infections.
Details: The study also looked at 47,000 Cleveland Clinic employees who had received one shot, both shots or no shots at all.
https://www.axios.com/study-hospitalized-coronavirus-patients-unvaccinated-7ed34f63-fd1d-437c-b4b7-0c1dd3600a15.html
Science!!
womanofthehills
(8,718 posts)womanofthehills
(8,718 posts)Only breakthroughs of those hospitalized or deceased. Why?? Its too much trouble for them? And whats with their Director going on Rachels show and saying breakthroughs dont exist and then having to take her words back the next day?
liberal_mama
(1,495 posts)I would like to know that information.
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)Certainly not with me.
Heart666
(8 posts)I thought that were FOS.
But, then, I looked it up. And it was actually true.
I was shocked beyond words.
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)Captain Stern
(2,201 posts).....when it agrees with what we already think.
Other times, maybe not so much.
sarisataka
(18,672 posts)So much this...
hardluck
(639 posts)Its hard to objectively evaluate your preconceived ideas. This is as regular occurrence here as it is in the real world.
womanofthehills
(8,718 posts)So CDC says vaccinated dont need masks just when new more spreadable variants from India arrive in US and the variants might to some degree evade vaccines. Science?? Hello? England is dealing with this right now with the B.1.617.2 variant.
Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove, the technical lead of the World Health Organizations coronavirus response, said a study of a limited number of patients, which had not yet been peer-reviewed, suggested that antibodies from vaccines or infections with other variants might not be quite as effective against B.1.617. The agency said, however, that vaccines were likely to remain potent enough to provide protection from serious illness and death.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/world/uk-covid-india.html
Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove, the technical lead of the World Health Organizations coronavirus response, said a study of a limited number of patients, which had not yet been peer-reviewed, suggested that antibodies from vaccines or infections with other variants might not be quite as effective against B.1.617. The agency said, however, that vaccines were likely to remain potent enough to provide protection from serious illness and death.
I guess it's a glass half-full vs half-empty sort of thing.
Celerity
(43,419 posts)Bullfeathers
(108 posts)Wearing my mask 😷 indefinitely when I use public transporting or go shopping. I havent been sick in a year and I like it LOL
EarlG
(21,951 posts)this has been a really tough, scary year for everyone, and maybe its going to take a little time before people are psychologically ready to get back to normal?
I think there is something to the fact that for the past year, its been really easy to tell the difference between who is taking the pandemic seriously and who isnt. If youre masked, youre a good citizen; if youre not, youre a selfish maskhole. People dont want to be perceived as selfish maskholes.
So its not going to be a smooth transition from wearing masks to not wearing masks. There will be some natural friction between the science which shows that vaccinated people are almost entirely protected, vs. the social situation that the pandemic created.
Plus, its not that easy to let go of fears youve been living with for more than a year. Without wishing to make any kind of diagnosis (Im not a psychologist), perhaps when folks on this board question the CDCs new guidelines it comes less from a place of anti-science, and more from a place of anxiety, maybe even a little PTSD. Weve all been through hell this past year, and what its done to us psychologically still remains to be seen. Its going to take a little time before everyone is ready to get back to normal.
Edited to add: I count myself in this group. Im as pro-science as they come, and rushed to get the vaccine as soon as it was available. Im not opposed to the CDCs guidelines. But even when Im officially fully vaccinated in two weeks, the thought of taking my mask off in public spaces like the grocery store still makes me feel uncomfortable. Ill get over it, but its going to take a little bit of time.
Doc Sportello
(7,522 posts)This explains a lot of my feelings. The problem is the headline of "no more mask mandate" is going to be taken by the unvaccinated maskholes as applying to them too.
This is pretty much where I am at the present time.
I'll walk up and peek over the edge of the chasm before I leap.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)niyad
(113,364 posts)JonAndKatePlusABird
(312 posts)Summed up my thoughts well.
kcr
(15,317 posts)It's definitely going to take a while to get comfortable with the idea that it's okay to not wear a mask in public again.
usedtobedemgurl
(1,139 posts)I have had dreams all the time, of entering a public place without a mask! All of a sudden I realize I forgot to put it on , and I am filled with fear and panic!!!
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)So a few points that come to mind with the stat that 35.4% of the country has been vaccinated.
1. The CDC updated guideline jumped the shark. There are clearly still areas in the country where wearing a mask should be required. While business and institution can have their own requirements, the new CDC guideline under cut such attempts. It also gives open license for those who refuse to get vaccinated to enter environments where they previously had to mask unmasked.
My phone is about to die. I will add more later.
boston bean
(36,222 posts)medical facilities? I suspect doctors and nurses will wear ppe with all patients even though they are vaccinated.
Last year we were told by the CDC only medical,professionals needed to wear masks. That was not the case.
So, why again are they being given different direction than the rest of us plebes?
Klaralven
(7,510 posts)The breakthrough rate is probably about 10% for the mRNA vaccines and maybe about 30% for J&J. Possibly these will go higher as variants arrive.
Since sick people go to medical facilities, your probability of exposure there is higher than at, e.g., Home Depot.
And Covid aside, there are all sorts of nasty bugs floating around medical facilities. More infection control is needed there for a variety of reasons.
boston bean
(36,222 posts)Means risks are for the general public as there are so many unvaccinated. They really do not.
We shall see.
Klaralven
(7,510 posts)I expect a pandemic of subclinical Covid among vaccinated non-masked populations, contagion from there to the unvaccinated populations, followed by vaccine breakthroughs by new imported variants from India, Southeast Asia, etc.
"Survival of the fittest virus" predicts that more and more contagious forms will spread faster and farther than less contagious forms.
boston bean
(36,222 posts)And that tells me there are political considerations.
Hugin
(33,164 posts)This post and the one previously are the most reasonable discussion of the situation I've read today.
Nice going. So refreshing. Thanks.
liberal_mama
(1,495 posts)When the CDC said we didn't need to wear masks early in the pandemic, I immediately started wearing a mask in public. I knew if the masks would protect healthcare workers and doctors working with Covid patients, they would protect me when I was grocery shopping. A lot of the guidelines don't seem logical to me.
JCMach1
(27,559 posts)aerosolizes at the beginning of March, 2020.
This time CDC is ahead of the curve so to speak, but trusting science applies both ways.
Except when required, I am done with the mask.
Ms. Toad
(34,076 posts)They are, as they have consistently as to transmission, taking the riskier position. That doesn't out them ahead of the curve it means they consistently underestimate this virus, and overestimate the willingness of US residents to do what is right to prevent it.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Their previous "guidance" wasn't exactly perfect, was it?
Those would be the same scientists that told us to wash surfaces and hands non stop (for an airborne disease).
And I will stop second guessing when CDC can assure me that everybody going around maskless is actually vaccinated.
RobinA
(9,894 posts)is that the vaccination works and the fully vaccinated don't need masks. The unvaccinated need masks so they don't get it and/or spread it to the unvaccinated. If you are vaccinated and meet someone unvaccinated you are good. No vaccine is 100%, but we aren't walking around wearing masks to avoid measles. What any individual who is vaccinated needs to feel comfortable is up to them.
Autumn
(45,109 posts)because the vaccination status of other people, particularly Republicans, is not known.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)But I have a serious question. 30% of Americans will not get the vaccine. If 4 months from now the current data that shows vaccinated people are at almost no risk is still true, will you still mask up?
I ask be if the data remains the same, wearing a mask will only protect the willingly unvaccinated.
Autumn
(45,109 posts)under their nose. Just being idiots, and pretty sure from reading the community pages a lot won't vccinate. I'm not sure covid will be erradicated. I've seen what damage even a mild case can do and it seems it may be possible to get it even after being vaccinated, depending on the vaccination recieved. I think I will continue to mask.
Mysterian
(4,588 posts)Sure. Both sides are the same. Whatever.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)bullwinkle428
(20,629 posts)He made this statement on 3/4/2021, so I think the apprehension on the part of some here is totally understandable.
For the record, our daily case rate is around 36,000. Continuing to drop, for sure, but still some ways from 10,000.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/index.html
TraceNC
(254 posts)At least when it comes to motive and intentions.
The covid deniers, anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers, etc. were questioning the CDC and putting the health and lives of others at risk.
People questioning the CDC over relaxing the mask guidance are erring on the side of caution, for their own protection and that of others.
I think its a stretch to put those in the second group along with the first group whose motivation is all about youre not the boss of me and my liberty is being trampled!
StarryNite
(9,446 posts)sarisataka
(18,672 posts)As you said, a person is free to wear a mask if they wish.
The irony is parroting the exact same excuses the antimask folks have been using to doubt the CDC. Excuses we have been ridiculing until now.
Arkansas Granny
(31,519 posts)rate of 6.6%. I thought that the desired positivity rate was considered to be 5% or less before all restrictions were lifted.
I will continue to wear a mask if I'm in a public situation until those numbers look a little better.
wiggs
(7,814 posts)public health. It can't possibly issue guidelines that fit every household, every individual, every location.
As it has always been during covid each person should read more than the CDC guidelines to fully understand the situation and determine best course of action for themselves...and I think erring on the side of caution during a worsening global pandemic is not just wise, it's common sense.
And still sends a message to those not vaccinated. And guards against the fastest growing, most transmissible variants now being studied based on weeks old data. And keeps from spreading virus to those not vaccinated. And keeps yourself and household from becoming a laboratory for more variants.
We won't fully understand this virus and its various effects on people for years....but each week we think we know enough to make life and death decisions and draw finely tuned lines between too much risk and statistically not enough to be concerned about?
We've loosened considerably since vaccination but masks stay on when around others. Not too difficult for us
doc03
(35,349 posts)vaccinated you no longer need to wear one. That's good enough for me the mask is gone
I think keeping a mask mandate at this point would have just been to get non vaccinated people to wear them, they've done the math and it says this is OK now, so I trust them. And I definitely trust our President.
doc03
(35,349 posts)until June 2nd.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Early on we were told to not worry about the masks and we found out that was because they didn't want a shortage for medical providers. OK, cool, I get we don't want a shortage, but tell us that.
I trust science, but what if this newest change is mostly for giving those who haven't vaccinated a reason to want to vaccinate.
fescuerescue
(4,448 posts)That was an outright lie meant to manipulate people.
I'm sure it wasn't their last one.
seaglass
(8,173 posts)risk my 13 day old grandchild who cannot get vaccinated? Mask wearing initially was to protect others, then it was discovered that masks also protected the wearer.
6 ft of space required, then 3 ft was ok. Wash your groceries, sterilize surfaces, then don't bother.
I am completely open to the fact that the CDC doesn't know everything and that when more is learned guidance changes - this IS believing in science, allowing for errors and continued learning.
Again, until the CDC can unequivocally state (and I may have missed it) that vaxed people cannot pass on the virus I will continue to wear a mask inside around people I don't know.
Response to seaglass (Reply #41)
hamsterjill This message was self-deleted by its author.
Doc Sportello
(7,522 posts)In other words the decision it wasn't a slam dunk among the scientists at the CDC. So your premise about posters here not trusting the science and implying they are hypocrites is flawed. Perhaps you can ask yourself why.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Well, has anything changed? No. Variants are still spreading. So why would we not need to wear masks anymore? I think CDC's guidance to stop wearing masks is not smart.
RobinA
(9,894 posts)Dr. Gupta doesn't say what a lot of discussion at the CDC was about. The science? The reaction? The message being sent? Will the unvaccinated ever get it if we take away the masks? So we don't know what wasn't a slam dunk. Public health, quite frankly, cannot be easy.
fescuerescue
(4,448 posts)So I've been second guessing them ever since that announcement.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)but an attempt to stop a shortage of masks.
fescuerescue
(4,448 posts)for Amazon and Wallmart and other suppliers.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)NT
liberal_mama
(1,495 posts)Lives could have been saved. Many people already had masks on hand in their basements or garages. Or people could have made their own. They should have never lied about the situation.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)We've been preaching to follow the science for a year and now we are going to say "well yeah but those guys are jumping the gun"? It was one thing to question the motives under Redfield and Trump but we should probably trust that the Biden administration is making these decisions seriously and earnestly.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)As others have pointed out, the CDC has earned the distrust that some people including myself have of it. I support science but I don't jumped to hasty conclusions.
As of 2 days ago only 35.4% of the U.S. population has been vaccinated. IMO we still don't know the long term efficacy of the vaccines. The CDC couldn't even wait for the country to meet it's own previously stated metrics. I believe this was a political decision.
I will continue to wear a mask indoor in public situations and will carry one while outdoors and continue to social distance. I will avoid prolonged indoor events. These things harm no one.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)The post was about 2nd guessing CDC guidelines. Personally Ill follow the guidelines and happily leave the mask in the truck whenever I can and attend outdoor concerts and events this summer if things havent changed. I dont need a mask to distinguish me from Trumpers Im perfectly comfortable with who I am.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)thinks about my personal decisions. I sense that this was a political decision.
Ms. Toad
(34,076 posts)Multiple times during the pandemic, including waiting for 3 months into this administration to finally acknowledge aerosolized transmission (known for more than a year).
Questioning the CDC isn't questioning science, it is questioning whether the CDC is actually following science.
The same as i did when they (against then-known science recommended against masks), the same as i did when, after acknowledging that masks worked they (against then-known science)insisted they did not protect the wearer, the same as I did 3 months into the Biden administration and had not yet acknowledged aerosolized transmission (against science known for mire than a year)
My record of knowing the actual science of transmission is far more accurate than the CDC's proclamations about it. Feel free to fact check me on that. It's ask here on DU.
They've been wrong multiple times during the pandemic.
We have just been told to continue to wear masks because variants are spreading. Nothing changed. Variants are still spreading.
Ms. Toad
(34,076 posts)Because of how the vaccines are made I expect the vaccines (at least the mRNA ones) to provide equivalent protection. I intentionally sought out an mRNA vaccine (and all of my family members have also had an mRNA vaccine).
I'm concerned about the fact that I live in a county in which only 45% of the residents have started getting vaccinated (so far fewer actually vaccinated), and we are still categorized as a very high risk based on prevalence of cases.
Vaccines are not perfect. So the more potentially COVID-causing exposures, the more likely that vaccinated people will be involved in catching and transmitting COVID.
5% of a very large number is still a significant risk.
5% of a very large number, reduced by mask wearing, reduced by a low number of residents with COVID, reduced by a high number of people with 75-95% protection is a much smaller risk.
My standard is - would I take/recommend others take the current risk with polio because, at its worst, everything I see suggests COVID poses that grave a risk.
My answer is "no." Not until the cases are cut by 60% (at least) and until the number vaccinated grows by at least 60%.
ETA - and what really bothers me most is that sending the message that going without masks is just fine (by removing mask orders), we are pretty dramatically increasing the risk for individuals who cannot be vaccinated (children under 12, those with contraindications to vaccination, and those who can take the vaccination but whose immune system is not adequate to create immunity)
Niagara
(7,628 posts)Too damn many times.
For example, around February of 2020, the CDC stated that wearing a mask was ineffective since the particles of the virus were too small and that we needed to save the masks for medical providers. Had they not made that statement, more people would be alive today.
Some of us had to wait forever to get a Covid vaccine because we were under the age of 65, were considered non-essential and truth be told, I had a difficult time finding a place that provided the Pfizer vaccine. I will get my 2nd dose in 3 more days, so I'm not fully vaccinated yet. Once I am fully vaccinated, I will still be wearing a mask in indoor public areas and will not be visiting with people who are not fully vaccinated. My life, my rules.
I believe it's too soon to be encouraging people to go maskless and to terminate social distancing in large groups.
You are free to take the mask off and act like it's party time if you want to. We lost too many people from this preventable disaster because we received misinformation since the beginning of the pandemic from the agency that was suppose to be protecting us. I will never apologize for being wary about my health and the health of others.
brooklynite
(94,602 posts)FWIW - I won't be "partying"; I'll be living an ordinary life under the guidance of science.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)brooklynite
(94,602 posts)Niagara
(7,628 posts)for the fully vaccinated by wearing masks and socially distancing. Why was that?
The CDEC found that a rare 5,800 fully vaccinated persons have been infected with Covid. I realize that it's small number compared to the numbers that were being infected before we had the vaccines. However, a month ago, they didn't know why or know the pattern and now we're suppose to stop taking precautions only a month later?
No one should be shamed for wanting to take extra precautions by wearing a mask or continue to socially distance. If they want to take extra precautions, they should be able to do so without specifically being called out or being accused of not believing in science.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/14/health/breakthrough-infections-covid-vaccines-cdc/index.html
Zeitghost
(3,862 posts)The CDC defaults to a more cautious position and then relaxes as more information comes in that warrants it.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)That being an inference or premise that does not follow from the premise responded to...
FWIW, one does not need to wear a mask to understand logical fallacies. So wear one or don't (your choice, of course) when if you decide to further understand logical fallacies (again, your choice).
mcar
(42,334 posts)I, too, find it interesting that we suddenly have people who doubt the science and the guidelines.
cinematicdiversions
(1,969 posts)Signal I am a good person. Honestly some people don't want to give up the moral superiority they feel when they are in a social situation wearing a mask.
Sympthsical
(9,076 posts)My partner and I are both fully vaccinated. Yesterday was his birthday, so I decided to take him to a nice restaurant weve both been meaning to try.
Easily 80-90% capacity, 50-60 maskless people indoors.
Newp Newp Newp!
We got a table outside off to the side.
Vaccinated people can still get Covid, and we still dont know the long term effects of having the virus. There are already signs of long term complications.
My caution costs both me and you nothing. Ill wear my mask and socially distance for a while yet. My choice. And unlike the anti-maskers, my choice harms no one.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)brooklynite
(94,602 posts)chowder66
(9,074 posts)Many of us will need to continue masking up per the CDC guidelines.
And now I have to worry about others thinking the following;
You are too cautious.
You are trying to act morally superior.
You don't believe in the CDC recommendations.
Of which none of those apply to us.
Thanks we really appreciate your fucking support.
Niagara
(7,628 posts)you wearing a mask for that extra protection. You do what you feel you need to do to protect yourself.
Anyone who shames, ridicules, scoffs at or mocks another person for their believes is using a bullying tactic. I'm surprised that this thread was allowed to stand and it tells me everything that I need to know about the OP. It wasn't even a discussion; it was an inappropriate insult.
chowder66
(9,074 posts)Niagara
(7,628 posts)chowder66
(9,074 posts)roamer65
(36,745 posts)Influenza and noroviruses are the prime candidates.
I plan on trying to avoid that coming surge.
The CDC is only issuing guidance on SARS-CoV-2 in this instance.
egduj
(805 posts)So it's only natural that if someone says masks are no longer necessary, whether they be scientists or not, there's going to be some pushback.
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)including before Drumph.
In any event, science is an ongoing process, not a pronouncement of absolute truth. It is definitely not a pronouncement by an authority or an organization, even if they are a scientist or run by scientists.
I trust science to be the most effective process that we have for understanding the natural world. That doesn't mean that I trust it to be an oracle of absolute truth.
I don't trust CDC guidelines to be free of influence by political and social considerations.
There are also many scientists outside the CDC who have differing opinions.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/upshot/epidemiologists-coronavirus-masks.html
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)How the cdc is not infallible and in this case and in other past recommendations is not following science.
1- numbers of infections are still too high
2- vaccination levels are still too low
3- variants which can overcome some of the vaccines are present here
It is too soon to stop masking.
In addition there is no system for establishing who is actually vaccinated and no plan/ policy to stop the non vaccinated from going without masks in required areas. So the whole thing is a joke because now anyone who doesn't want to will not wear a mask whether vaccinated or not. Several large businesses have already stated vaccinated people will not be required to wear masks and they also have no policy to determine who is vaccinated etc.
The cdc and many others including Fauci said masks would not protect the wearer, and would not prevent spread either early on, both of which are false. Many knew it was false when they said it.
It also shouldnt have to be said that under dump the cdc lied about numerous things regarding covid and as I recall some there were involved in helping the administration in concealing data of covid infections. It appears that may happen again since I read they were not going to report all break through infections in vaccinated people now.
Sadly many of their decisions have not had the interest of protecting the public in mind and were designed to control the situation with certain numbers of deaths now acceptable, which would have been outrageous pre pandemic.
A true scientist will tell you that science itself is not infallible, it is constantly in flux being questioned and changing/ evolving. Smart people evaluate and question such decisions as this one.
Bettie
(16,110 posts)and probably not outside.
Next time the seasonal crud is going around, I'll wear one every time I'm out because I've enjoyed not being sick at all for the last year or so.