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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIsrael showed US 'smoking gun' on Hamas in AP office tower, officials say
Israel shared intelligence with the US showing how Hamas operated inside the same building with the Associated Press and Al-Jazeera in Gaza, officials in Jerusalem said on Sunday.
Officials in more than one government office confirmed that US President Joe Bidens phone call to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Saturday was, in part, about the bombing of the building, and that Israel showed Biden and American officials the intelligence behind the action.
"We showed them the smoking gun proving Hamas worked out of that building, a source close to Foreign Minister Gabi Ashkenazi said. I understand they found the explanation satisfactory.
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-showed-us-smoking-gun-on-hamas-in-ap-office-tower-officials-say-668303/
5X
(3,972 posts)"90% of countries support Israel..." ?
Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)Is it the Jerusalem Post reporting, the Israeli "smoking gun" intelligence presented to Biden, or the sources in the US government that confirm the aforementioned intelligence presented to the President of the United States by the Israeli Foreign Ministry?
On the other hand, not even Hamas is denying its presence in the building.
You are entitled to your mistrust, but it is becoming increasingly unjustified with each passing day.
5X
(3,972 posts)Lots of quotes condemning it.
Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)Support or condemnation of an event mean nothing without the information to be based on. Apparently, such information exists, and was shared with Biden. The fact that Hamas is not denying its presence in the building is telling, although it's too early to be more specific about it.
The OP names three sources: Jerusalem Post, who published the article, Israeli Foreign Ministry, who reported that the "smoking gun" evidence was shared with Biden, and the sources within the Biden administration confirming the event.
The condemnations you have mentioned came from two sources, according to JP: Al Jazeera and AP Since then, AP effectively took back theirs, and the AP CEO now says he doesn't know why Israel bombed the building. One remaining condemnation doesn't qualify as "lots" in m y book.
BTW, I am neither supporting nor condemning the destruction of the building, for above mentioned reasons. I am merely warning those who are too quick and careless with their condemnation.
panader0
(25,816 posts)and those of Hamas.
Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)the OP
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-showed-us-smoking-gun-on-hamas-in-ap-office-tower-officials-say-668303/
And no, I don't have any knowledge of any statements made by Hamas on the destroyed building.
panader0
(25,816 posts)Where's the statement from the Biden admin about the presence of Hamas?
I won't take Netanyahoo's explanation as fact, and neither should Biden.
You are aware I'm sure that in 1947, the Palestinians controlled almost all the
land that is now Israel right? Now pushed into a very small strip of land,
like what happened to Native Americans.
Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)As far as Biden's statement, it's up to Biden to provide, not me. It has been confirmed that he had a conversation about the building with the Israeli Foreign Minister, and intelligence confirming Hamas presence in the building was presented to him. you would think Biden has extensive intelligence at his disposal to either confirm or deny the "smoking gun.Netanyahu was neither present nor gave any explanation on the subject, so neither you nor Biden have to worry about taking anything he said as fact.Nothing he said has any bearing on the subject.
Now, let me propose something as ridiculous as your proposition: Where is Biden's denial of the accuracy of the intelligence he received?.. You see how it works?
And it seems that you desperately need a lesson in history. The land that is now Israel was controlled by the British between 1917 and April 14, 1948. Prior to that, the land was part of the Ottoman Empire since the 16th Century. In 1947, the UN proposed partitioning the land between Jews and Palestinians, which the Palestinians promptly rejected. When the State of Israel was founded and recognized by the UN, military forces from five neighboring Arab countries, in addition to some Palestinian brigades, invaded Israel from the territories allotted to the Palestinians and were repelled, at significant gain of territory by Israel. In 1950, Jordan assumed control of the West Bank, and Egypt of Gaza. In 1967, Jordan and Egypt were defeated by Israel and lost control of both territories.
Sorry, but you can't claim ignorance now.
panader0
(25,816 posts)Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)In fact, there is a big fat identification of what these maps show: land ownership. In other words, lands belonging to landlords, not lands belonging to a people or a sovereign or legal administrator of the territory. A Palestinian is free to own land in the US too, but it doesn't make his land a Palestinian territory.
Hope this helps.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)I wouldn't be surprised if the evidence is no more than AP or Al-Jazeera hiring locals to do some journalistic work, etc.
It does seem like the Israeli government views every Gazan as a Hamas operative of some sort. As some of their leaders have articulated in the past.
haele
(12,660 posts)So basically, anyone who takes Hamas charity is a member of Hamas, whether they're firing rockets or just going to school under a Hamas grant. Hamas assets include businesses, clinics, and housing that are subsidized by Hamas/Iran.
That's called soft influence, and it's very difficult for the locals in Gaza to think badly of an organization acting like any other NGO that is helping them start businesses and their kids to go past basic schooling.
So as someone who is fairly old, who has observed the I/P situation since the 1960's, spoken to both Palestinians and Israelis, and actually read history concerning both sides, I am concerned how the IDF defines a "smoking gun" if the AP and other press organizations who operate 24/7 - including their security services and cameras - in that building say they have not seen any evidence of Hamas activity and want to know why they were targeted.
FWIW, Hamas -and Hezbollah - have been Iranian proxies from before the fall of the Shah - our own CIA proxy to manage both OPEC and any growth of Soviet influence in the area. That the Shah also had his own plans for the region didn't bother the US so long as those plans went along with US foreign policy.
Haele
Haele
Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)they may be able to give you the evidence you are seeking.
But if you keep insisting the evidence doesn't exist, you have no leg to stand on.
joetheman
(1,450 posts)because of any weapons in any building. That's a given in the ME. Weapons are everywhere. I beginning issue was what happened to the Palestinians at the hands of Israel settlers during a mosque attack AND the rockets reigned down on Israel in response or retaliation for an act of terror against Palestinians in a Mosque. Start there. Trying to make this all about Hamas storing weapons in a building is just drawing attention away from the what is really going on in Israel.
JohnSJ
(92,219 posts)a second hand report saying "I understand they found the explanation satisfactory" is not going to cut it.
For example, the delay and very limited access to the camera footage of Michael Brown being killed by police in North Carolina, does not foster confidence in what really happened or the facts.
Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)Obama was supposed to televise the raid that killed Bin Laden to the whole world while the US helicopter was still in the air.
BTW, where is the evidence of Bin Laden's DNA, and where is Bin Laden's body? Or maybe the whole thing has no basis in fact? (Just in case it is not evident on its face, I am being sarcastic here)
JohnSJ
(92,219 posts)along with bin Laden's family.
The U.S. wanted to be very careful about NOT making bin laden a martyr, and by displaying a body filled with a ridiculous number of gunshot wounds might have just done that. That is the reason that his body was never shown, and it was disposed in an unknown location in the sea
Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)The Gaza conflict is far from over. So far, Hamas has not denied their presence in the building. Perhaps they know what the Israeli foreign ministry communicated to Biden.
In either event, my argument was that security forces do not divulge their clandestine sources to the whole world until these sources are safe.
JohnSJ
(92,219 posts)out at the time condemning the attack, along with the monitoring of jihadist websites, there was no ambiguity that bin laden was dead.
This has nothing to do with divulging their sources. This has to do with providing evidence that it was a hideout for hamas, and if they weren't ready to do that, then this story from second hand sources is NOT confirmation. In a similar manner, not hearing that hamas has not denied their presence in the building does not prove they were or were not in that building.
Javaman
(62,530 posts)Blowing up a fucking building with news agencies inside.
This looks as horrible as it sounds and they are trying their best to scrape up the toothpaste all over the room and put it back in the tube.
Since every Palestinian is considered a member of Hamas and Bibi needs some positive PR I question this.
Reminds me of the smoking gun of yellowcake uranium from Niger used to bamboozle us into the Iraq war.
Considered by whom? Certainly not the Palestinians who support Abbas and the PA!
JohnSJ
(92,219 posts)had taken place, and the situation there was calm
Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)that claimed all Palestinians are considered to be Hamas, no further elaboration given. That startled me into responding to a demonstrably false statement.
Ritabert
(668 posts)....when it advances their narrative.
Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)You don't have to be an expert in Israeli-Palestinian politics to know this. The fact is that Israel conducts negotiations with the Palestinian Authority, but not with Hamas, who are widely regarded as a terrorist organization.
JohnSJ
(92,219 posts)from Israeli occupation, and destroy Israel", transform the country into an Islamic state, and provide social services to the Palestinians in Gaza.
Hamas resisted all efforts to get it to sign up to previous Palestinian agreements with Israel, as well as to recognize Israel's legitimacy and to renounce violence.
At the same time it needs to be noted that Netanyahu was a staunch opponent of the Oslo accords, and against any negotiations with hamas.
"Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play"
JohnSJ
(92,219 posts)reflect the very complex situation going on.
ExciteBike66
(2,358 posts)Israel claims that the building contained Hamas "military intelligence". Fine, assuming that to be the case, what is gained by destroying the building? Even if they destroyed the papers inside, wouldn't Hamas have made a copy? Do intel agencies generally store backups of their work?
multigraincracker
(32,688 posts)Were any rockets fired from that building?
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,357 posts)WHITT
(2,868 posts)Fascists lie like normal people breathe.
Does anybody really need to be reminded of the Likud's LONG litany of lies, fake videos, fake photos, fake documents, and on and on and on.
Only the gullible believes their propaganda.
You're right.
Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)Or is your response not intended to address the OP?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)will accept almost any action by Israel including sinking a US ship.
Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)because they have some obscure motives hidden in their conduct?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)WHITT
(2,868 posts)Foreign Minister Gabi Ashkenazi is a liar, as he answers to the fascist Likud.
Mosby
(16,319 posts)He's the Foreign Minister.
Beastly Boy
(9,375 posts)propaganda, right?
If you are not, how does anyone being a liar have any relevance to Biden's reaction?
WHITT
(2,868 posts)Ashkenazi's claims about showing the Biden administration non-existent "evidence" and that the Biden administration accepted it, is true. But the fascist Likud, and those who participate in their government, are documented liars.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)In fact, many of your premises today rest on that same fallacy, indicating the direction of a particular narrative.
tenderfoot
(8,437 posts)Mosby
(16,319 posts)When Hamass leaders surveyed their assets before this summers round of fighting, they knew that among those assets was the international press. The AP staff in Gaza City would witness a rocket launch right beside their office, endangering reporters and other civilians nearbyand the AP wouldnt report it, not even in AP articles about Israeli claims that Hamas was launching rockets from residential areas. (This happened.) Hamas fighters would burst into the APs Gaza bureau and threaten the staffand the AP wouldnt report it. (This also happened.) Cameramen waiting outside Shifa Hospital in Gaza City would film the arrival of civilian casualties and then, at a signal from an official, turn off their cameras when wounded and dead fighters came in, helping Hamas maintain the illusion that only civilians were dying. (This too happened; the information comes from multiple sources with firsthand knowledge of these incidents.)
Colford, the AP spokesman, confirmed that armed militants entered the APs Gaza office in the early days of the war to complain about a photo showing the location of a rocket launch, though he said that Hamas claimed that the men did not represent the group. The AP does not report many interactions with militias, armies, thugs or governments, he wrote. These incidents are part of the challenge of getting out the newsand not themselves news.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)So they can buy some more bombs.
So they can kill more Israeli civilians
So we can hear disgusting terms like nazi Jews
So we hear more blaming of Israel while giving a pass to hamas
So we can ignore endless double standards
Gee...Im pretty much disgusted.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)About half of Hamas's funding came from states in the Persian Gulf down to the mid 2000s. Saudi Arabia supplied half of the Hamas budget of $50 million in the early 2000s,[98] but, under U.S. pressure, began cut its funding by cracking down on Islamic charities and private donor transfers to Hamas in 2004,[99] which by 2006 drastically reduced the flow of money from that area. Iran and Syria, in the aftermath of Hamas's 2006 electoral victory, stepped in to fill the shortfall.[100][101] Saudi funding, negotiated with third parties like Egypt, remained supportive of Hamas as a Sunni group but chose to provide more assistance to the PNA, the electoral loser, when the EU responded to the outcome by suspending its monetary aid.[102] During the 1980s, Iran began to provide 10% of Hamas's funding, which it increased annually until by the 1990s it supplied $30 million.[98] It accounted for $22 million, over a quarter of Hamas's budget, by the late 2000s.[99] According to Matthew Levitt, Iran preferred direct financing to operative groups rather than charities, requiring video proof of attacks.[99] [103] Much of the Iran funding is said to be channeled through Hezbollah.[99] After 2006, Iran's willingness to take over the burden of the shortfall created by the drying up of Saudi funding also reflected the geopolitical tensions between the two, since, though Shiite, Iran was supporting a Sunni group traditionally closely linked with the Saudi kingdom.[104] The US imposed sanctions on Iran's Bank Saderat, alleging it had funneled hundreds of millions to Hamas.[105] The US has expressed concerns that Hamas obtains funds through Palestinian and Lebanese sympathizers of Arab descent in the Foz do Iguaçu area of the tri-border region of Latin America, an area long associated with arms trading, drug trafficking, contraband, the manufacture of counterfeit goods, money-laundering and currency fraud. The State Department adds that confirmatory information of a Hamas operational presence there is lacking.[106]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#:~:text=Saudi%20Arabia%20supplied%20half%20of,of%20money%20from%20that%20area.
Hamas has a whole lot of help over the years.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)"let's givenHamas some more money"?
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Money the The US gives for so called refugees and other reasons can be used for other reasons .
Hamas is a terrorist organization whose sole stated goal is to drive Israel into the sea.
They will sacrifice their own people as disposable waste .
I know...no one defends hamas but the same people have no problem bashing Israel for defending itself.
If hamas ends its murderous rampage the war is over.
If Israel ends its defense then Israel is over.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)only goes one way.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)whose sole purpose is to murder jews, youre damn right.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)Israel is erasing Palestine.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)thx
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)Mosby
(16,319 posts)It has access restrictions just like the Israel crossings, and for the same reasons.
Silent3
(15,221 posts)Rather than destroy a whole building that two news organizations work out of, and many of the employees live in?
There's nothing brave about a military force that's willing to inflict any degree of damage whatsoever so long as it can do it safely from a distance. That's something the US is frequently guilty of too.
dsc
(52,162 posts)so that leaves them somehow not knowing, which is possible but frankly not likely, or Israel isn't correct.