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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMy thoughts on the abortion issue ...
I have two observations about the abortion issue, observations that I have never heard from anybody else.
One of them involves recollections of Sunday School classes from when I was 10, 11, 12, 13 years old. That would have been 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963. These are distinct, vivid memories of lively discussions involving the Sunday School teacher and the kids in his class, including me, in the Southern Baptist church I went to then. The issue we were discussing was the question of when and how the soul enters the body. The teaching and the consensus were that the soul enters the body at or minutes before the moment of birth, not the moment of conception. When the delivery room doctor slaps the infants behind and God breathes the breath of life into the seconds-old newborn, and the baby begins crying as its respiration starts.
That was the teaching then, 55 or 60 years ago, but its not the teaching now. Now the churches are teaching that life begins at conception and that is why abortion kills babies.
I strongly suspect, and I believe, that the churches very subtly changed their teachings about this issue in the wake of the Roe v. Wade decision. I say very subtly because it simply happened and nobody to this day has ever seemed to notice it, or announce it, or acknowledge it.
Of course, this strong suspicion of mine is based on the decades-old memories of just one person, and the teachings of just one church, and that makes my suspicion suspect, and that is why I am posting it here on Democratic Underground dot com for others to read. What memories do yall have of churches of various denominations and what they were teaching on this issue before the Roe v. Wade decision came down?
My second observation involves birthdays and the way we all keep track of our chronological ages. Whenever one of us celebrates a birthday, we say, I am 40 years old today. That is the date that comes exactly 40 years to the day after that persons birth, not his or her conception. We all mark our ages that way, including the pro-life people who claim that their individual origin was the moment of their conception, not of their birth. What I am saying is that every time an anti-choice, or pro-life, or anti-abortion, or whatever you want to call them, whenever one of those individuals says Its my birthday and Im 40 years old today, they are acknowledging that their life began at the moment of their birth, when the delivery room doctor slapped their behind to get their respiration started. And God breathed the breath of life into them.
If life begins at conception, then we all should start celebrating conception days, not birthdays. We all should start marking our ages from our conception days, on our passports and our drivers licenses and our Social Security cards. And birth notices in newspapers should instead be conception notices. And every one of us is nine months older than weve always thought we were.
If the anti-abortion people were going to be consistent in their beliefs, thats the way they would start keeping track of their ages, but I believe the way weve always done it is the right way. They like to talk about things like fetal heartbeats and fetal brainwave activity and little wiggles of fetal fingers and toes, but Ive always thought that the fetus is a house under construction, a house that nobody has moved into yet. Sure, that house has the lights and plumbing working, but its still unoccupied and under construction, and its only when its finished that somebody actually moves into it. As we were discussing in those Southern Baptist Sunday School classes of my youth, that body is unoccupied until the moment of birth, when the doctor slaps its behind and God breathes the breath of life into it. Thats when somebody who might be called a soul moves in and that individuals life begins, and thats why weve always marked our ages in that manner. And still do.
What if Im wrong? What if a persons life really does begin at conception and therefore abortion really does murder babies? Well, in that case, is abortion the only thing that is inimical to life? Of course not, but the anti-abortion people seem to think it is. Theres the coronavirus pandemic, for example, which many of the anti-abortion people think is a hoax. How anybody could perpetrate a hoax of that magnitude is a mystery to me, and how anybody could believe a catastrophe of that magnitude doesnt even exist is equally mysterious. At this writing the pandemic has killed about 600,000 Americans, not to mention the suffering and lingering health problems many of the survivors have endured. How many of those 600,000 born, not unborn, Americans would still be alive if Hilary had been president for the past four years? She would have listened to the science and the experts, she would have taken the measures necessary to control the virus before it started getting out of control. And hundreds of thousands of BORN Americans would still be alive.
Early in the 20-aughts, during the George W. Bush administration, I remember hearing that the number of abortions that were actually occurring in the U.S. was steadily rising. That number had been on a steady decline for the previous 15 or 20 years, as I recall, and Im not going to bother to research any actual numbers, but I do remember that after George W. Bush took over, more women started having abortions. The reason was that the Bush administration, typically for a Republican administration, was cutting social services, components of the social safety net, resulting in a lot of poor and lower-middle-class women no longer being able to afford to have children, so they were having more abortions. If right-wingers think Democrats are inimical to life because they support reproductive freedom, Republicans are more inimical to life because they oppose policies that will reduce the number of abortions that are actually carried out.
What about contraceptives and family planning methods? Im talking about things that will stop abortions by reducing the demand. You would think that the anti-abortion people would support those measures, but in fact, they will fight tooth-and-nail against any effort to promote those kinds of public policies. This has always puzzled me. In their opposition to those kinds of common-sense policies, they will often resort to rationalizations and excuses. I have heard them irrationally claim, for example, that if people have more condoms and IUDs, they will have more sex, and that will result in more abortions.
This is why I have long suspected that the anti-abortion people are not really about saving babies but about keeping people from having sex. Their stated goal is saving babies but their unstated goal is keeping people from having sex. And I believe that is actually their primary goal. I base this claim on the fact that whenever there is an actual or perceived conflict between their stated goal and their unstated goal, they will come down on the side of the unstated goal every time.
One more observation and then Ill shut up: One thing I always notice on those rare occasions when pro-life and pro-choice individuals actually discuss this issue is that they dont REALLY discuss the issue, but just talk past each other. The pro-life people will talk about killing babies and the pro-choice people will just ignore that and talk about reproductive freedom. Then the pro-life people will ignore that and talk, again, about killing babies. Theyll go back and forth like that, each side ignoring the others concerns and talking only about their own. I always think that there is some overlap between their concerns and that if they would focus on that overlap, they could ease the contentiousness of this issue somewhat, if not resolve it altogether. But of course, a large part of that overlap is contraceptives and family planning, and the pro-life people will fight tooth and nail against that, which leads me to suspect that they are not REALLY about saving babies but just about keeping people from having sex.
I could go on and on about this issue, but Im tired of pounding away on this keyboard, so Ill shut up now.
Ron
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)abortion. But it wasn't in response to Roe -- it was in response to desegregation. The religious right formed around keeping schools segregated, and when they lost that fight, they moved to abortion.
NQAS
(10,749 posts)I know the RW crusade to abolish and criminalize abortion has been ongoing for decades. And I know that the subject requires intelligent comment and analysis when it comes to combatting the legislative and judicial efforts.
But. . . it really is very simple, at least to a good 50+% of the population. A woman's health care and reproductive rights are no one's fucking business except the woman's and her health care providers. Again, thoughtful analysis is fine. There's a post here of a tweet about supporting a variety of medical issues that may compel a woman to choose abortion. That's well written. But for me it comes down to this. It's not my fucking business. It's not your fucking business. It's not Christians' fucking business. It's not politicians' fucking business. Sorry folks, but it really is this simple, and I think it's abhorrent that things have got this far in the anti-abortion crusade. As with most everything the RW gets its hands on, this is not going to end well.
leftieNanner
(15,126 posts)Times 1,000,000,000,000.
I don't actually think they really want Roe overturned - because then they will lose their rally cry to get the fundies to the polls.
If they do succeed at SCOTUS, then all they will do is push abortion into back alleys and women will die. People with money will always be able to access the procedure.
It would be interesting to know how many abortions The Former Guy has paid for over the years.
Jeebo
(2,025 posts)And I agree 100 percent with what you say. I would add, though, that it's not just between a woman and her doctor, but between the woman, her doctor and the man who impregnated her. The potential father has a say, too, because he also faces 21 years of the bills, burdens and responsibilities of parenthood. But the woman has the final say.
-- Ron
Arazi
(6,829 posts)He voluntarily gave it away and now she gets all the decision making power.
If guys don't want the situation to be like that then guys need to get sterilized or abstain.
Vasectomies are reversible
Jeebo
(2,025 posts)... she does not own 100 percent of the ensuing 21 years of bills, burdens and responsibilities. Those responsibilities are something that they both equally share. Or should. I am talking about basic fairness here. For both prospective parents.
-- Ron
Arazi
(6,829 posts)The rest of your convo happens only if she decides to have that baby.
Pantagruel
(2,580 posts)Mighty christian of them...
Moostache
(9,897 posts)I tried to convince an excise police officer that since I actually was conceived in 1970 and escape the womb/prison in 1971 that while my recognized age was beneath the legal drinking age, my religious age was indeed above the age to purchase and consume the delicious Margarita in my hands...
Did not work then.
Should not work ever.
Jeebo
(2,025 posts)Last edited Tue May 25, 2021, 03:13 PM - Edit history (1)
It was some years back. He had been arrested for being a minor in possession of alcohol. The state of Missouri's legislature had recently passed a state abortion law with a preamble that asserted that "life begins at conception" and the 20-year-old fellow was going to claim in court that he was actually of legal drinking age, 21, according to that preamble.
I never did hear anything more about that case, wonder how it turned out?
-- Ron
Pantagruel
(2,580 posts)I believe the Choice movement should introduce the cost factor to the debate.
Eliminating a million annual abortions would by definition add a million unwanted kids to our population. The costs of such additions in social, medical and psychological damage probably would run to the 100's of $Billions after the 1st ten years alone.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)You make some good points. Definitely food for thought. Thank you for sharing with us.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)And that's why a large % of the virulent anti-choicers are dumping looking old dudes. They're a bunch of incels or close to it. They're jealous of the young people screwing their brains out. They probably got little or no sex their whole lives.
They cloak their jealousy and even hatred in religion but really it comes down to 'if I'm not having fun nobody else should be either'.
Otherwise as you say logic would dictate that they'd be all for cheap and readily available birth control, and free if people can't afford it.
happybird
(4,608 posts)Weve been getting uppity since the sexual revolution. Things like having the nerve to tell abusers and weirdos to fuck off, working good paying jobs and attending the best colleges, making our own decisions. Apparently, that is emasculating.
ETA: if cis men could get pregnant, they would be throwing free packs of birth control pills and boxes of condoms off of every rooftop, like confetti.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)Moostache
(9,897 posts)I have had success discussing the abortion issue with people who oppose it on moral but not religious grounds and I have convinced people who scream about "freedom" that restrictive abortion laws are the exact opposite of that...
What I have never done is persuade a religious fundie nut case that abortion is an issue of bodily control and financial destiny for unwed or single women who get pregnant with a man (that second part is always left out - these are not immaculate conceptions after all).
The point is that these people are guilty of a direct violation of the First Amendment guarantees for freedom of religion and FROM religion (no state sponsored religion allowed). They feel their god is telling them something, and they want to make that the law of the land, disingenuously they will claim other reasons, but drilling down to the core ALWAYS lands you on religious grounds with these zealots. They want to impose THEIR beliefs on the STATE and they want to then use the STATE to control women's bodies, lives and social possibilities.
The sooner everyone understands and recognizes this, the better. IMHO...
Diamond_Dog
(32,012 posts)Because the powers that be in churches back then (mostly male, mostly white) felt they had to put a stop to women having the freedom to have sex outside of marriage. Abortion freed up women from the burden of bearing unwanted children. And birth control did the same. Both of which led women to delay having children or marriage altogether in favor of fulfillment in other ways, such as careers or education, and the male preachers were freaking out about the idea of women having their own money and their own self determination. They expected that women be pure until marriage then birth a baby as often as possible to keep them n the home and dependent on a man, who was entitled to treat his wife any way he wanted, which the preachers told us was Gods will. So, in short, I think this whole concept is in order to keep women subjugated by men.
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,641 posts)In short: They want to control us, period!
Diamond_Dog
(32,012 posts)And I am a former Catholic
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,641 posts)I too am a recovering Catholic and I have felt this for a long time too.
Diamond_Dog
(32,012 posts)happybird
(4,608 posts)Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)RegularJam
(914 posts)As is the metric used in your second point.
Its a womans right. Anything less is oppression.
634-5789
(4,175 posts)So, hell yeah, let's bring some MORE unwanted kids in here.🙄 Jackasses.