What attitude do YOU think this party should have about George McGovern's ideals?

[Ken Burch]

The senator is still with us, but his daughter has said he's nearing the end.

George McGovern stood for peace, social equality, a clean environment and a decent life for all. He also felt that we shouldn't be trying to order the world around anymore and that we shouldn't act as if every revolt against a "pro-American" regime is nothing but a Communist plot.

Our party has spent most of the last forty years going out of its way to repudiate the above ideals...with mixed electoral results at best.

As we prepare to say farewell to the man from South Dakota, shouldn't we welcome back, at long last, the dreams he helped a generation fight for?

9 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	We should admit McGovern was right about pretty much everything.
	8 (89%)
	We should keep repudiating him and keep embracing the worst things Nixon stood for(i.e., be "centrist").
	0 (0%)
	We should be liberal on meaningless side issues, conservative on everything else
	0 (0%)
	We shouldn't have ANY ideals..."winning" is ALL that matters.
	0 (0%)
	No opinion
	0 (0%)
	Other
	1 (11%)
	Meh
	0 (0%)
	Anybody seen the latest cute cat footage on YouTube?
	0 (0%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[limpyhobbler]

1. Good question. kick and rec.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

2. He was right about almost everything.

Shame he came out against the EFCA a few years ago.

[Ken Burch]

6. Well, ok.

Probably a vestige of having represented a right-to-work state for all those years. I'm pretty sure he'd have signed Taft-Hartley repeal if he'd won in '72, though(as president, it really wouldn't have been that big of a deal to him to lose South Dakota in '76).

[msongs]

3. most of today's dems would've been called republicans back in 1972 lol and today's repubs

would've been called birchers

[Iggy]

4. McGovern's Ideals??

Sorry, the small "d" democratic party has no clue what those ideals are.. and why they are
important.

[Ken Burch]

7. I think you meant the "large D party"

The "small d" party is very, VERY different than the "large D".

[Iggy]

8. NOPE... But it depends on your def

of the two...

The large D democratic party (my understanding) it the pro Labor, pro helping the poor, etc., that
some of us here grew up with.

the small d dem party is the party created by corporate arse kissers Bill Clinton, Rahm Emanuel, Mr.
McCauliffe, etc., back in the mid 1990's-- in order to co-opt clownservatives like Gingrinch... and to
win the 1996 election. the small d party is NOT pro Labor, not pro helping the poor all that much

this is the dem party we have now. part of the proof is Mr Emanuel proclaming "F*** the unions"
while he was Chief of Staff for Obama.. if this is anyone's idea of being pro Labor.. we need to talk

[Ken Burch]

9. What I meant was this:

the "small-d" democratic party is made up of those who stand for the true Dem message of democratizing as much of life as possible...socially, economically, politically

the "large-D" party is the institutional Democratic Party structure, the party-in-name crowd that believes that winning elections is all that matters and that rejects the idea that core values are more important than big checks from big donors.

That's where I was going with this.

I understand your intent as well...I think we were just using opposite terms to express what each of us meant.

[Iggy]

27. OK, Thanks

understood.

I've never heard your defs.. and that's OK; doesn't make them wrong.

what you call small d, I would call big D... the status quo, "just win, baby" rubes-- I would term
that small d.

No biggie... as long as we understand the "democratic party" we have now is very weak-- they lost
big time in 2010... and they couldn't muster a win in 2004-- against one of the biggest liars/idiots
to ever hold the POTUS office.

[newblewtoo]

5. I voted for him

in '72 and would do so again. I was still in the Navy so I took a lot of heat for supporting Mc Govern / Shriver, but they were right. We would be in a far different place today had America listened.

[99Forever]

10. Your poll choices suck.

A push poll here?

Really?

(BTW, I voted for and admire George McGovern, very much.)

[Ken Burch]

11. I listed all the possible options.

Would you have preferred something meaningless like "admire the guy, but don't dare actually fight for what he stand for"?

And "McGovern was ok then, but we can't break with the Third Way now" isn't a valid choice. That's the same thing as being a Democrat for Nixon.

And you can't seriously deny that my definition of "be centrist" is correct.

Sounds like you want to bury the dreams along with the man. You have the right to your views, I guess.

Oh, and I DID include "other"...which would have allowed you to express whatever other views you wanted, so what's the problem?

[99Forever]

12. It's a push poll. Period.

Who off the top of your head, uses lots and lots of push polls.

You denigrate George McGovern's image and works with this kind of tripe.

[Ken Burch]

13. It's just an internet poll

It's not as though this will reshape life as we know it. Chill.

And no, I'm not denigrating the Senator's image and works. If anything, I'm defending them against a party that's been bashing the poor guy and obsessively repudiating everything he ever stood for no good reason.

[jsmirman]

14. Why don't you suggest some other choices you would like to see up there?

That seems more constructive.

I know I believe in defensive wars, but my answer was still the top line choice.

[theKed]

15. What about "I believe in some but not all of what he stood for"?

I'm not familiar enough enough to make a list of questions that encapsulate the entirety of his beliefs, but you could probably get another half dozen positions out of that.

"I believe in A,B, C but not D and E"
"I believe in A, B, D but not C and E"

etc.

[Ken Burch]

17. That would be covered in "Other", accompanied with a post like the one you just made.

n/t.

[theKed]

19. Oh I see

Did you learn from the Fox School of Polling?

One glaringly positive choice, three glaringly negative choices, some meaningless/joke choices, and "other".

Well done.

Wording of questions
It is well established that the wording of the questions, the order in which they are asked and the number and form of alternative answers offered can influence results of polls. For instance, the public is more likely to indicate support for a person who is described by the operator as one of the "leading candidates". This support itself overrides subtle bias for one candidate, as does lumping some candidates in an "other" category or vice versa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_poll#Wording_of_questions

[Ken Burch]

20. Out of interest, what is it that the McGovern backed that you liked, and what didn't you like?

Don't be coy...just say what you mean here...

[theKed]

22. I really am not sure what he stood for

so I can't make that claim.

[Ken Burch]

25. Here's a brief rundown:

McGovern was not only against the war in Vietnam, he also wanted major cuts in our war budget, with the funds saved redirected towards domestic needs. McGovern wanted a revival of the civil rights project.

He favored a fairly non-interventionist foreign policy and normalization of relations with Cuba. It's probable that he'd have stopped the U.S. destablization campaign against the democratic socialist government of Chile(a campaign that led to the fascist takeover there on September 11, 1973.

His platform included the first pro-gay rights language of any major party presidential candidate.

He wanted(IIRC)national health insurance.

He favored decriminalization of marijuana for personal use.

And McGovern also favored a $1000 guaranteed annual income for all Americans.

[Ken Burch]

21. There really isn't a SERIOUS negative option available.

"Senator McGovern was a great guy, but we can't actually DO much of what he talked about" isn't a real opinion...and it can't be considered a pro-McGovern position.

Also, there simply isn't enough room in a poll thread to include all the "I like some, but not all" options that exist. And liking, say, just half of what the guy stood for is fairly meaningless.

Besides which, being "centrist" IS the same thing as being a Nixon Republican.

[theKed]

23. So all there is is one real choice,

a bunch of joke choices, and 'other'?
"the worst things Nixon stood for" comes off as bad and will discourage people to choose it
"meaningless side issues, conservative on everything else" comes off as bad and will discourage people to choose it
""winning" is ALL that matters." comes off as bad and will discourage people to choose it

Your poll is bad and you should feel bad for posting it.

[Ken Burch]

18. I thnk the other poster was just uncomfortable

with the fact that this poll, as written, took some people out of their comfort zones.

[99Forever]

24. What are you?

Some sort of internet psychic? How very fucking rude of you to state ANYTHING about my reasoning. I know stinkbait when I smell it and your pushpoll is stinkbait. And I'm sure as fuck "comfortable" saying it.

[Ken Burch]

26. Why "stinkbait"?

I didn't start this thread to attack anyone on DU.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. In today's Third Way Democratic Party his ideals are condemned as fringe leftist and impractical.

Now we are led by "practical" centrists who triangulate whatever ideals the party once had into "winning strategies" of "bi-partisanship" and fundraising from the real bosses.

We are now the "not as bad" party instead of the party of the people.

[OmahaBlueDog]

28. "What's unique about George McGovern is how good he was. " Author Stephen Ambrose

GWEN IFILL: Senator, for those of us who follow Washington and politics, think we knew all we had to know about you in 1972, yet it turns out this is a brand new story for a lot of people. Why are we just hearing about this, or does it feel that way anyhow?

GEORGE McGOVERN: I've pondered that. I did frequently refer to my war record in World War II, but not in any flamboyant way. I think the average citizen that knew anything about me thought of me as the anti-war candidate. I was the guy who was constantly speaking out against the Vietnam War. I have no regrets about that. What I do regret is that we didn't take advantage of that opportunity to draw the contrast with World War II, which I believed in. I've never had one minute's regret about my involvement as a bomber pilot in that war, and we should have spent more time drawing the contrast with that war and the Vietnam War, which was just as big a mistake as anything this country has ever made.

GWEN IFILL: What was the line you drew in your mind between your, you know, heroic and enthusiastic participation-- volunteering to participate in World War II-- and your dislike, your distaste for Vietnam?

GEORGE McGOVERN: Well, we had no choice in the Second World War. We were up against Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo, three dictators, totalitarian leaders, who were out to destroy western civilization. I never thought there was any choice. We had to stop those people and the military machines behind them, whereas in Vietnam, it was a confusing situation -- I think, basically, a revolutionary war in South Vietnam against an unpopular government. And the hero over there was Ho Chi Minh. He'd thrown the French out, he had resisted the Japanese, he had resisted the Chinese. We undertook an impossible situation in Vietnam.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/july-dec01/wildblue_08-16.html

From the same interview:

STEPHEN AMBROSE: It's both. It is unique and it does stand for the others who were in the army, air forces, in the Second World War. What's unique about George McGovern is how good he was. I interviewed the members of his crew. Every one of them said he always got us back. We just trusted in him. We knew he was going to do it right, and he did. He was courageous, of course, but he had a level head. He could keep that plane level, too. He had a lot of muscles to do that. It was very difficult to keep that plane flying.