The Condo Collapse - It is clear that most of the folks still missing are dead

[malaise]

Really sad - now think about those who lost everything but survived.
Thy have no homes, no furniture, no IDs, no ATM cards, no transportation, no clothes, no furniture, no kitchen stuff and no photographs or precious mementos.. It's all gone. Did they even manage to grab a cell phone?
I was exercising on my stationery bike wondering if any of them had insured the contents of their homes.

Yes life is what matters, but could you survive that stress?

[Elessar Zappa]

1. I can't even imagine

the stress of the survivors. Many probably lost everything.

[onethatcares]

2. as I read the threads

about the collapse, I think of how long it will take for the insurance companies to throw unimaginable obstacles in the face of those that lost it all but survived. Obstacles like having a copy of their policy.

My hope for the people would be to have relatives they can lean on but the ptsd is going to be intense.

I'm not sure if could survive being alone after a disaster like this.

[malaise]

4. Yes

Even those who are insured will discover the hurdles related to compensation.
Life can change forever...in fifteen seconds.

[Politicub]

8. Terrible, indeed. Are you taking about life insurance? Survivors are not going to receive

much by way of building insurance. I don’t know how that works, though.

Their homeowner’s insurance will cover personal property and appliances within the four walls of a condo unit. Even so, they will get jerked around by that because they will be caught in a catch-22 of needing to provide evidence of individual lost items.

I didn’t consider lost policies. The survivors’ lives will never be the same.

[Hekate]

50. Your actual policy should be in the offices of the agent & company. Photos of household contents...

…are essential for making claims and are your responsibility.

File that under: Things I Learned After the Thomas Fire.

We were spared with minimal damage, when so many lost all but their lives. However, I made sure to go to a public meeting hosted by the local synagogue in which knowledgable and sympathetic insurance adjustors (current and retired) walked the packed audience through the process and gave us advice for the future.

It was invaluable — unless someday you want to sit with a detailed stack of forms going room by room and drawer by drawer in your imagination, take photos now. So I did.

[spanone]

3. So sad...

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

5. Most of the folks in that building were probably fairly wealthy.

They probably had documented their belongings and insured them. Especially the art and the jewelry.

Some didn't lose everything, they lost half. There would have been some snowbirds who were at their summer residences in New York or New Jersey or Michigan or Canada.

Many survivors of hurricanes, like Andrew, Gilbert, Katrina, they lost everything also. But many of them did not have any backup: no IRA, no retirement plan, no insurance, no savings, and nobody willing to shell out money for their recovery. Survivors of this building collapse are probably going to be ok.

[malaise]

9. Yes these were high end Condos

Some of them probably have their jewelry in security boxes in banks.

Thanks for this perspective.

[Politicub]

12. It wasn't a luxury building like you seem to think it was.

A lot of retirees lived there. Units sold in the $200k range not long ago. A listing on Zillow had a unit priced at $600k with $900 fees. Expensive, but not outrageously so in the current housing climate.

It was in an enviable location on the beach, but it wasn’t a building of multi-million dollar units.

[TexasBushwhacker]

29. A condo in the twin building just listed for $1.25 Million

The listing was arranged prior to the collapse, but the realtor got a lot of hate mail and took the listing down.

[Dopers_Greed]

25. Most of their wealth was probably in that condo though

It's not uncommon for people to be millionaires now just from home value, but middle class otherwise.

[Demovictory9]

42. yep..they have homeowners insurance

[JI7]

57. At best I would say some were comfortably upper middle class

Florida ocean property is pretty cheap compared to other parts of the country which is why so many go there.

[snowybirdie]

6. Their lives are devastated

But they lived in half a million dollar homes in a wealthy city. They all have resources beyond what the average person has. They can rebuild their lives unlike so many who are devastated by tornadoes and hurricanes. Sorry for them but sending money is something I wouldn't do. It can be better used elsewhere.

[MineralMan]

11. A Half a Million Home Is Not at All Unusual These Days.

You don't have to be incredibly wealthy to own one, either. The median price for a single family home here in the Twin Cities, MN is pushing $350K right now. A good question is: How much did that home cost when you bought it?

Wealthy people live in far more expensive homes than that.

I suspect that many of the condo owners in that building bought their condos many years ago, when prices were much more reasonable than $500K. Today, in the Los Angeles area, $500K will buy you a 2-bedroom, one batch house built in the 1950s as a tract development.

That area in Florida is full of far more expensive homes than those condos.

Those who died are not hugely wealthy. Not at all.

[snowybirdie]

14. The Collins Ave area of Miami Beach

is full of very expensive shops, restaurants and condos. Folks living there support these venues. So the average resident has money to spare. I guess I just think the request for funds for these poor people is premature. I'd rather send my limited spare money to the poor folks in Alabama who lost everything in a tornado last week via a well known, vetted agency. However I'm very sorry for victims of both tragedies.

[MineralMan]

15. I'm not suggesting sending funds at all.

I'm simply talking about property values of condos in that area.

Compared to people living in most places in Alabama, those condo-dwellers were doing pretty OK. However, they are not really wealthy people. Most are now dead who lived in the collapsed parts. They will have no further expenses.

[snowybirdie]

17. Were seeing

Many messages on tv here in FL requesting money.

[MineralMan]

40. OK. You can just ignore them, I'd think.

On the other hand, some of the people in those condos may have bought them many years ago, paid them off, and are now living on fixed incomes, including Social Security. You really can't make any assumptions about who lives in that building, based just on current values of the condos.

At any time, anyone can be in big financial trouble when disaster strikes. So, maybe there's a need for donations, but nobody is required to make a donation, either, at any time.

Over 150 people are dead, you see. We know nothing about them, except that they lived in that building when it collapsed. All have families who don't know for sure if they're alive or dead.

It seems a poor time to me to deny them the respect of not insulting them by calling them rich, as if that mitigates their deaths.

Think about it for a while.

[snowybirdie]

41. I double checked

Zillow for sale @ 8777 Collins Ave
Champlain Towers South Condominiums
8777 Collins Ave, Miami Beach, FL 33154
Building Location
Map of Miami Beach, FL centered on Champlain Towers South Condominiums
Street view of Champlain Towers South CondominiumsStreet View
Units
Recently Sold
All1 Bed2 Bed3+ Bed

$710,000
3 bd|2 ba|1,748 sqft
Sold 06/16/2021
-
Unit 910
Logo of Listing Provider
The Corcoran Group


$2,880,000
4 bd|4 ba|4,500 sqft
Sold 05/10/2021
-
Unit A
Logo of Listing Provider
E & E Realty Services


$750,000
2 bd|2 ba|1,672 sqft
Sold 05/04/2021
-
Unit 511
Logo of Listing Provider
One Sotheby's International Realty


$735,000
2 bd|2 ba|1,683 sqft
Sold 03/31/2021
-
Unit 608
Logo of Listing Provider
Compass Florida, LLC.

My point is, we're seeing many requests here in Fl. for sending money to funding sites for the families of owners. These people are likely not destitute or without resources. That's all. I just question why people think throwing money will actually help in this situation. What needs to be done is governmental action to examine many of the buildings in the area. Could be very troubling for condo owners in the area and for property values in this high-end town.

[obamanut2012]

43. I live down here -- Surfside is NOT Miami Beach

Many folks who live in condos there moved in 20-40 years ago, inherited units, eit5c., and are regular white collar folks. Nurses, teachers, engineers, etc.

[Demovictory9]

56. yep... two working people paying the mortgage can swing a 750K home these days

most aren't rich

[secondwind]

7. If this is true, that there will be very little survivors, I think

that there will be a shrine there, with names of all the dead. A beautiful shrine.

I don’t think the rubble will be entirely removed. It what it is. 😕

[malaise]

10. People rarely survive 36 hours

and we're way past 72. It is what it is.

[Treefrog]

16. "I don't think the rubble will be entirely removed." In Florida?

Something will be going up there within a year. They’ve built every inch of south Florida they can get their hands on.

[sop]

20. The unit owners have already filed a class action suit against the condo association.

"Surfside, Fla., Condo Owners Are Suing The Collapsed Building's Association" - NPR

"The owners say the condo association failed to 'secure and safeguard the lives and property' of plaintiff Manuel Drezner and other owners, according to the complaint filed by the Brad Sohn Law Firm...The class-action suit 'seeks to compensate the victims of this unfathomable loss,' the court document says...The suit seeks damages that exceed $5 million, with a specific amount to be determined during a trial...The 40-year-old condo had been in the process of undergoing a recertification process, having hired an engineer to analyze the building...The lawsuit quotes public statements made by Kenneth Direktor, who represents the condo association, saying that 'repair needs had been identified' in the building's structure before its horrific collapse."

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-miami-area-condo-collapse/2021/06/25/1010291809/florida-condo-owners-lawsuit-suit-building-surfside-miami

This class action suit will take years to resolve. In the meantime, the 130+ unit owners can sell the land and divide the proceeds. Large beachfront lots are going for tens of millions of dollars along that stretch of Collins Ave. What's left of the 12-storey structure will be razed and a much taller building, 50 storeys or higher, will eventually be erected in its place.

[mn9driver]

27. Other than insurance, the Association probably doesn't have significant assets.

Lawsuits will need to be brought against the designers and the original builders, as well as any contractors who performed any repair work on the pool deck and the waterproofing system.

The original building design pertaining to the structural pool deck was described as seriously flawed in the 2018 inspection. That observation appears to be accurate. This will go to court, but the Condo Association won’t be the primary source of settlement funds.

[TexasBushwhacker]

32. If it was built to code 40 years ago, the plaintiffs will be out

of luck.

[obamanut2012]

44. They lost a lawsuit in 2015 about lack of maintenance

And, they never repaired what they agreed to. They are going down, and nothing is going to be rebuilt there for a long time, if ever.

[sop]

33. The Florida Statute of Limitations for construction defects tolled years ago.

Stat. § 95.11(3)(c), Florida's statute of limitations and repose for construction defects prohibits construction defect claims 4 years after the claim accrues, the day on which an event that caused an alleged liability occurred. In the case of damages, a claim accrues at the time that the wrong upon which the claim is based was done, regardless of the time when damage results. And the statute of limitations for breach of warranty claims founded upon the design, planning, or construction of an improvement to real property is also four years.

The statute defines construction defects to include "deficiencies in design, materials, construction, observation of construction, surveying, planning, repair alteration, supervision, remodeling, and building code violations." There are two basic types of construction defects: defects that occur during the design of a home or building, and defects that occur during the building phase.

As a general principle, an architect or engineer is usually responsible for defects in the design of a construction project. Construction defect is generally defined as a defect in the design, materials, workmanship that can affect mechanical systems, building components and structural integrity.

Unfortunately, it can be months or years after a construction project is completed that defects can surface. There will be many suits filed, this won't be resolved quickly.

[malaise]

45. REst assured that the Association and its Board

are up shit creek without a paddle - they knew about the problems

[mn9driver]

48. Half of the board are reported missing and are likely dead.

Unless the remaining 3 are secret billionaires, there will be no significant settlement funds coming from them personally. Any funds coming from the association in a settlement will be from liability insurance, which was the point of my original post here.

As for being up the creek without a paddle, those remaining 3 board members will certainly have to live with what happened. Good luck to them.

[malaise]

49. Well if they neglected the problems

Karma was quick/ Sadly everyone who survived will live with this forever.

[Politicub]

52. By design, HOA board members are protected from liability claims by

virtue of the CC&Rs. Otherwise, no one would ever want to serve on the board.

[Politicub]

51. They are suing themselves. Owners *are* the HOA. The board is

comprised of members of the HOA, and is not separate from it.

The class action will not go anywhere.

[sop]

53. Officers and directors of the HOA can be sued for breach of a fiduciary duty.

HOA (home owner association) liability insurance protects the HOA itself from the typical personal injury or property damage claims. For example, if a resident or guest slips and falls in a common area due to negligence on the part of the condo association, the injured party can make a claim against the HOA's liability insurance for damages.

Many HOA liability insurance policies also provide Director's and Officer's (D&O) liability insurance to protect the board members. Officers and directors of condominium associations are generally immune from suit, and can only be sued individually if they commit a crime, engage in fraud or self-dealing, and/or are unjustly enriched by their actions.

However, HOA Directors and officers liability insurance protects directors and officers from claims that they failed to act or acted wrongfully in their individual or group capacity on behalf of the association. Lawsuits are possible against the HOA for its failure to maintain the common areas if the directors and officers breached their fiduciary duty to the HOA.

[ornotna]

37. I don't think so

That property will sit for quite sometime.

[brooklynite]

18. These were condos, not rentals...

I'd be amazed if any of them didn't have homeowner's insurance (covers structure and liability as well as property).

[malaise]

19. You'd know way more than me about that

Still this must be stressful

[secondwind]

21. Is an act of God covered... I wonder

[brooklynite]

30. Define an "act of god"...

If known deficiencies in the building weren't addressed, I'm not sure the insurance company was liable.

[malaise]

46. Ding ding we have a winner

There will be more law suits than rubble

[dalton99a]

22. FWIW People who bought them in 1980 were not poor or middle-class

This advertisement from the July 20, 1980, edition of the Miami Herald promoted Champlain Towers as a luxury development.

[XanaDUer2]

28. It's a very ritzy area

I grew up in the poor and working class part of Miami. Surfside is just south of Bal Harbour, which is the Rodeo Drive of South florida.

[Ferrets are Cool]

23. Losing everything is the new normal in 'Merica.

Building collapses, wildfires, floods, hurricanes, tornado's.

[johnthewoodworker]

24. I'm wondering why no national news source has even tried to talk with the pigs who cashed

the mortgage checks and ignored the safety status of their collapsed building.

[BobTheSubgenius]

26. When I was young, I really loved the process of putting a life, or at least a home, together.

Mismatched furniture, mismatched cutlery....you know the drill. Coming home with a used but great pasta pot made that day a good one.

I can't imagine facing that at this point in my life. I almost wish I hadn't opened this thread - NO offence, it's a great perspective - but I find it one I can kinda relate to, but without the tragedy. It makes the tragedy more real and much closer to home.

[malaise]

47. When I think about my first apartment and its contents

I know you speak for me

[BobTheSubgenius]

54. I'm sure it's a phase of life shared by hundreds of people here.

Maybe thousands. I enjoyed it at the time, and I enjoy the memories. One aspect of my life that has held the same fondness and truth my whole life.

[malaise]

55. I loved it

The real fun was gradually filling it up with stuff

[Jetheels]

31. No matter what wealth one has, and there could be many different income levels of residents, for

some it was maybe a second or third home, some may have put most of their money into that condo, who knows, regardless it would be traumatic for anyone to go through this.

I been looking at the housing market lately, I’m seeing “tear downs” in average middle class neighborhoods going for 400k. A year ago 400k got you something quite nice.

Reading in the Miami Herald, most experts are saying it was the improper construction of the pool deck. It was not slanted to allow for drainage. Repairs were delayed this year because of the pandemic. If true, this is partly a pandemic related catastrophe.

[Bucky]

34. I'll bet there's lawyers swarming all over the place

...frantically trying to contact the residents and victims, the families of those who died, and all the companies involved in the design, construction, and insuring of the condo.

It's gonna be like a mini gold rush

[malaise]

35. I'm watching one on Local 10- right now

He says the Insurance companies will try to squirm their way out of paying compensation

[Bucky]

36. Of course. It's a great day to be a lawyer.

My understanding is there are already liability restrictions in place, due to the age of the building. But that won't stop the plaintiff lawyers trying to document ongoing negligence on the part of the management and construction firms.

[BGBD]

38. 35 ppl rescued out of 200ish ppl

Thought to be in the building. That's about 17.5% chance at surviving the initial collapse. But, the chance of surviving it and then living under the ruble for several days is basically impossible.

It would be a miracle is anyone else is found alive at this point.

[malaise]

39. Agree

The worst part of this collapse is that there were several warnings that something was wrong

[JI7]

58. Exactly this. There were warnings and something should

have been done. Even forced evacuations if it was going to be impossible to fix the issue.

[malaise]

59. The entire system is corrupt and not just in the US

Regulations are not enforcecd