Electric vehicle batteries in parking garages that are flattened would burn.

[5X]

Last edited Sun Jun 27, 2021, 05:46 PM - Edit history (1)

Water or moisture will set them off if breached.



Edited to add:

[Johnny2X2X]

1. As opposed to vehicles with 20 gallons of gas underneath them?

EVs are a much smaller fire hazard than regular cars.

[Klaralven]

3. Gas tanks don't spontaneously combust when crushed or punctured like lithium ion batteries

And it's not just cars. The lithium ion batteries in laptops, pads and smartphones will also ignite when crushed.

[marble falls]

6. Please.

[Klaralven]

10. April 2020 Fire Report: How & Why Do Lithium-Ion Batteries Fail

April 2020 will go down as one of the longest months on record. I think we all can agree that this April dragged out for obvious reasons.

We experienced 25 reported fire incidents at waste and recycling facilities during the month. We experienced an unusual phenomenon that we have not seen in the past – specifically that the first week of April had only one reported fire incident. The final remaining 24 incidents occurred in the final 21 days of the month. This was more than one reported fire incident per day.

The main cause of these fires is lithium-ion batteries, which we delve into deeply with my special guest this month, Ronald Butler.

https://www.waste360.com/safety/april-2020-fire-report-how-why-do-lithium-ion-batteries-fail-insight-jedi-master-lithium

[Hassin Bin Sober]

7. Horses and buggies don't burn or explode in any scenario.

Dagnabbit ! You kids and your horseless carriages!

[Klaralven]

17. Replace 240 million light vehicles with horses? Horse emissions would be an environmental nightmare.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

20. The wheel: the source of all our problems.

We've got to stop teaching critical round theory in our schools.

Barney and Fred?

Lock them up!

Lock them up!

[CrackityJones75]

40. Uhhh yes they do. If there is any spark near them they do.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

43. That's not spontaneous. NT

[CrackityJones75]

47. What isn't spontaneous?

There is a reason gas tanks are removed from a car before going into a car crusher. When crushed there absolutely can be sparks.

[USALiberal]

2. You do know gasoline burns too?? Nt

[5X]

5. Lithium and moisture virtually explodes

the moisture in the air is enough to set it off. I'm sure you have seen the videos of punctured batteries.

Gas needs oxygen to burn, lithium batteries do not.

This is just my speculation.

[Treefrog]

9. How do these cars do in a driving rainstorm then?

[mahatmakanejeeves]

12. With the batteries not damaged, the lack or presence of rain doesn't matter.

The topic is damaged batteries bursting into flames.

[Treefrog]

30. So what if you're in a crash in a rainstorm?

People are mentioning water on these batteries when damaged. So despite your dismissive tone, I’m curious.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

41. If the batteries are damaged, then there can be trouble.

No battery damage, no big deal.

I apologize for any dismissive tone on my part. It wasn't my intent.

[Klaralven]

13. Not well when crushed under 16 floors of concrete condo

Normally the batteries are sealed. The can become unsealed under pressure.

[ProfessorGAC]

45. Not Accurate

First, reactive metals don't explode due to contact with atmospheric moisture, or even liquid water flowing across the surface.
The explosive potential occurs in a submerged condition where liberated hydrogen gas has no where to go, Tue autoignition temperature is reached and the energy of substantial H2 burning is released rapidly.
Those condition don't apply in your scenario.
I've thrown reactive metal into water. It's exciting! We see flames flickering; the water gets hot very fast, but no explosion.
Secondly, lithium still needs a source of oxygen. Unlike phosphorus, which reacts with air, but lacks the activation energy to split water (which is why is can be stored in water), lithium gets the oxygen it needs to react from the water.. It takes the oxygen & one hydrogen from the water to form lithium hydroxide (LiOH) & one atom of hydrogen. Two lithium atoms in water makes 2 molecules of LiOH & one molecule of hydrogen (H2)
Absent water, lithium reacts directly with oxygen to form Lithium Oxide. (Li2O). 4 lithium atoms and one oxygen molecule make 2Li2O molecules.
Lithium in kerosene or mineral oil, seeing neither water nor oxygen is completely stable.
It DOES require oxygen to ignite.

[5X]

61. I am wrong about the moisture and ev batteries but,

mechanical crushing and heat and pressure can set them off.
See added video on first post.

[marble falls]

4. Everytime it rains, or even splashes a puddle, an enviromentalist gets his wings.

[jcboss]

8. Gasser

Gasoline is the most dangerous substance to the public and isnt controlled. When a tanker is filling stations, the station should be closed until tanker is finished.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

14. I wonder how many UL, ANSI, ISO, ASME, API, ASTM, and NFPA consensus standards there are

on the transport and handling of gasoline.

It's compliance with these standards that makes it possible for tankers to go from station to station refilling the underground storage tanks with no need to evacuate everyone within a quarter-mile.

Give it a go. Google is your friend.

[marble falls]

15. Exactly right. When was the last time a tanker blew up a service station? I watch from my deck ...

... most evenings, the at least once a day delivery to the HEB station about a quarter mile a day. Seems like they got it down pat.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

19. Do they still have that chain that drags along the pavement below the tank? NT

[marble falls]

22. I'll have to get my field glasses out! What I like the best about the tankers are they have ...

... running lights all around the back panel of the trailer. They look like big red ovals going down the road.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

23. There's a vehicle that's begging to be turned into a low rider. NT

[marble falls]

25. I kinda like the image of that big red oval jumping up and down.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

28. I spoke too soon. Okay, the tanker doesn't have hyrdraulics, but it is pretty tricked out.

Finland. That should explain everything.

On the road with Arto Simola in the Actros “Lowrider”



I can't embed the video.

https://roadstars.mercedes-benz.com/content/dam/mercedes-benz-trucks/en_GB/magazine/route/01-2018/on-tour-with-arto-simola-in-the-actros-lowrider/videos/on-tour-with-arto-simola-in-the-actros-lowrider-video/on-tour-with-arto-simola-in-the-actros-lowrider-video.webm

[marble falls]

33. These guys teach master classes ...

[mahatmakanejeeves]

35. This is what I had in mind, except with a tank truck.

Lowrider Magazine Super Show Hop 2/25/2017
8,236,411 viewsMar 1, 2017

Pinches Lowriders
116K subscribers

The hop at the lowrider magazine super show.

-Video by Lobo

[marble falls]

42. But the trailers gotta hop, too!

[mahatmakanejeeves]

44. That's what I mean: the tank part. NT

[ProfessorGAC]

46. Not Likely

However, upon arrival at a destination, a grounding clamp is attached to bring all connections to the same potential.
It's not necessary to dissipate the static charge continuously. Just before any hose connections are opened and any flow begins.
This is true when they fill those trucks as well.
So, they don't have a constant ground mechanism on 99.9% of transport of flammables.
It's a hazardous operation, but can be easily managed.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

24. Gasoline is the most dangerous substance to the public and isnt controlled.

Gasoline is the most dangerous substance to the public and isnt controlled.

Alcohol, hands down.

Also in the running: sulfuric acid-based drain cleaner, which I think is no longer available. Just as well, because sodium hydroxide works just fine.

Let's not forget pesticides.

[ProfessorGAC]

48. It's Available

There are several consumer formulas with sulfuric acid in them. There are many more available in the I&I (Industrial & Institutional) realm.
Those are not, BTW, anywhere close to as dangerous as gasoline.
The flammability of gas is the obvious big one, but the vapor exposure & toxicity of gas is far higher than even concentrated (93, 96, or 98%) sulfuric.
I'm on board that gasoline is the most hazardous of every day substances.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

49. You're probably right. I should think about it some more.

I don't know who keeps track of this; CPSC, maybe?

How many deaths per year are attributed to exposure to or incidents involving gasoline?

Same for alcohol?

Same for [other substances]?

Someone's got the numbers.

I'm guessing you did a lot better in organic than I did. I'm no Anthony Fauci.

Thanks for the input.

[ProfessorGAC]

52. My Specialty, Educationally...

Physical organic chemistry. Worked in the that field for 43 years, too.
I spent the last 19 years of my career working at the industrial scale doing troubleshooting & optimization. (Plus, a couple of industry shifting changes)
Because of that and R&D, I know those companies that make consumer products, I&I products and the like. Then I know the suppliers that make various alcohols. So, I got pretty tuned into safety & hygiene.
Alcohols are far less hazardous than gasoline. Much higher flash points, much higher threshold values for vapor exposure. I don't keep gas cans in the garage. But, I'm ok with 99% isopropanol in my bathroom. If that helps ameliorate your concerns.

BTW:I still know way more details about what's in various consumer goods than most anybody would want to know! Just got stuck in the recesses.

As to your question, I think NIH collects that kind of data.

[Klaralven]

51. Yearly about 3700 deaths by fire, 3400 by drowning.

Since most of the fire deaths don't involve gasoline, water is probably more dangerous.

[ProfessorGAC]

55. I Was Talking About More Than Fire

I was including the toxicological & environmental aspect of it as an everyday item.

[Takket]

11. so... we should stick with ICE engines then?

How often do parking garages collapse?

[Klaralven]

16. Florida parking garage collapse kills 2; 1 still missing

MIAMI (AP) - Rescue crews planned to continue searching Thursday for a construction worker still missing in the rubble of a five-story parking garage that collapsed a day earlier at a South Florida college, killing two workers and injuring several others.

https://www.jacksonville.com/article/20121011/NEWS/801245700

Usually during construction, but sometimes years later. Google "parking garage collapse" and enjoy.

[oasis]

31. Building inspection in Florida may go under a MSM microscope. nt

[dumbcat]

37. So there's one, nine years ago .....

Panic, everyone!

[mahatmakanejeeves]

18. Electric/Hybrid Vehicle Safety Training for Emergency Responders

Yeah, but what would the National Fire Protection Association know?

Electric/Hybrid Vehicle Safety Training for Emergency Responders
Full report

"Electric/Hybrid Vehicle Safety Training for Emergency Responders"

- Part 1 (PDF, 8 MB)
- Part 2 (PDF, 10 MB)
- Part 3 (PDF, 6 MB)

* All Fire Protection Research Foundation reports can be downloaded for free. Printed copies are $50, except where otherwise noted. If all reports in a subject category are requested, a 20% discount applies. Please pre-pay by check or money order to the The Fire Protection Research Foundation. You may also pay using VISA, Mastercard or American Express. E-mail the Foundation or call [phone].

Fire Protection Research Foundation report: "Electric/Hybrid Vehicle Safety Training for Emergency Responders”
Author: Andrew Klock
Date of issue: May 2013

Introduction

On-going programs and related initiatives by the U.S. federal government are promoting the proliferation of the next generation of electric vehicles. This is accelerating the manufacturing and deployment of electric drive vehicles. An important consideration for the implementation of this new technology is the potential hazards that may result, and how the emergency response community will address and mitigate those hazards.

The goal of this project is to provide comprehensive awareness and emergency response training to fire fighters and other emergency responders to prepare them for widespread implementation of advanced electric drive vehicles, including battery electric, hybrid electric, and certain fuel-cell electric vehicles. The objectives of the project include enhancing general awareness training, emergency response tactical training, and establishment of a centralized resource for nationwide ongoing technology transfer. This project report (in 3 parts due to large file size) provides a compilation of information that documents the efforts taken to meet these objectives.

The Research Foundation, which provided advisory services for the project, expresses gratitude to the report author Andrew Klock of NFPA and his support team. Special thanks are expressed to the U.S. Department of Energy as the project sponsor.

[5X]

21. No where have I said anything about getting rid of electric vehicles

Wish I could afford one. Just speculating on persistent fires.

[tinrobot]

34. It is certainly one possibility among many.

Fires start for a lot of reasons.

As a long time EV owner, I will say a lot of us are sensitive. 'Batteries catch fire' is something we hear a lot from people who dislike EVs. The reactions you're seeing are mostly a result of that.

But yes, upgrade to an EV. Used ones are getting downright affordable.

[NickB79]

26. Rising sea levels from burning gasoline helped rot out the building's foundation

And are set to cause far more building failures in the future as seas rise by FEET, not inches.

But let's worry about a fire from an EV that helps reduce carbon emissions.

[5X]

27. Lets ignore physics at our own peril.

I have not said they were the cause, just the result.

[NickB79]

29. Or we can ignore cost/benefit analysis

The benefits of cutting carbon by going to widespread EV use dwarf the risks they present from battery fires. Without a global push to stop fossil fuels, billions will be dead or climate refugees by century's end.

As the saying goes, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Can we improve current EV safety? Definitely. Is it an argument against widespread adoption of EV's? No.

On edit: I see you said you weren't arguing again EV's. I'm sorry if my tone came off as overly confrontational. My initial post wasn't directed at you personally, just more of me venting about climate change in general.

[tinrobot]

32. The fact that the building collapsed is the bigger problem here.

Who knows what caused the fires. EV batteries are one possibility. So are natural gas lines and a few others.

But nothing would have caught fire if the building had stayed up.

[Johnny2X2X]

36. EVs are as safe or safer than ICEs

Last edited Sun Jun 27, 2021, 02:13 PM - Edit history (1)

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/electric-cars-prove-safe-in-iihs-crash-tests-and-insurance-claims/

Thai thread is hogwash. EVs are safer already and they’re only going to get better. Lower center of gravity and more uniformity of weight distribution make them inherently less likely to roll over. Less moving parts makes them inherently more reliable too and less likely to have mechanical failure at high speeds.

[5X]

38. Did I say otherwise?

[Voltaire2]

50. Nice Dodge.

[5X]

54. I don't have to fucking dodge anything.

Have you read my above posts?

[obamanut2012]

58. Please, you implied the hell out of it

[5X]

59. Tell me where.

[Voltaire2]

60. Transparent nonsense is transparent.

[relayerbob]

39. And you know there were EVs in the garage

There were gas lines in the building. Any fire from all the EVs they could store in a garage would pale in comparison to the gas fires and the ignition of all the combustible belongings in the building. And, of course, ignores the face, the car batteriews are designed to withstand serious impacts. Oh, and, gasolene. Probably a little of that in the garages too.

Dumb thread, really dumg thread. Not up to DU standards at all

[David__77]

53. Good then to have excellent and stringent building codes.

…

[kysrsoze]

56. Ummm... wouldn't the complete collapse of the garage already have ruined one's day?

Does a fire or explosion right after the entire garage has collapsed even matter? I'm not even going to go into the environmental devastation and global instability/violence caused by the fossil fuel industry.

Thanks for the daily dose of nonsense.

[5X]

57. Reading is fundamental.