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MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 01:30 PM Jul 2021

Sub-Orbital Space Tourism Contributes Nothing to Future Space Travel

I remember the very first sub-orbital space flights. I was a 15-year-old kid when the first such flights happened in 1961. It was really exciting. They were followed by orbital flights, and even people stepping on the moon. But, that was 60 years ago. The Virgin flight did no more than that first sub-orbital flight. It took some people 55 miles above the earth and lasted about an hour.

We all have dreams about the possibility of humans moving off the Earth to some other, unspoiled place that hasn't been damaged by human activity. Dreams. At this time, however, we're still using chemical rockets to go to space. As long as we are limited by such propulsion methods, we cannot reach any such unspoiled planet to colonize it. There just aren't any near enough, and we don't know where the closest one might be, really.

It's exciting to think about space travel. A few wealthy people will pay huge amounts of money for a brief sub-orbital flight, certainly, but they won't be going anywhere for very long. A really wealthy person might get to the International Space Station to orbit our home planet for a few weeks, but that would be a waste of space that could be used for actual research - not tourism, it seems to me.

So NASA isn't doing a lot of manned missions at this time. More information can be obtained with unmanned rovers and other craft. More information can be obtained from high-tech telescopes and research tools, too, about even more distant parts of the universe. NASA is seeking knowledge, at the same time as it is looking at alternative propulsion systems that might replace chemical rockets for longer, much faster movement outside of our immediate vicinity.

More can be learned, and for far less money, by keeping people on the ground while technology investigates other future options.

No doubt it is thrilling to take a ride on one of the commercial spacecraft, but that's a short-term thrill, and you'd soon be back on the planet. All of those "space ships" are limited by the chemical rocket used to boost them beyond the atmosphere. Virgin's craft will never, ever make more than a short, sub-orbital flight. We have known how to do that for 60 years. Where is the benefit? How does that help us leave the planet and move somewhere else?

It doesn't. Nope. We're working on new propulsion systems and exploring with technology. Eventually, one of those propulsion systems might allow us to think seriously about manned missions to distant places, but right now it's still just a dream. NASA knows what it is doing, and is making enormous strides in providing us with the information we will need. Someday. Not now. Not as long as we're still using chemical rockets. With those, the fuel is soon gone and we reach a limit of the distance humans can travel, even in a lifetime.

Research is ongoing, but results that can take us into deep space are decades away at a minimum.

Don't plan on taking a trip to some new planet in your lifetime, or even watching others do so. That's not happening. It's just not.

36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Sub-Orbital Space Tourism Contributes Nothing to Future Space Travel (Original Post) MineralMan Jul 2021 OP
No explanation necessary Pantagruel Jul 2021 #1
Oh, for Pete's Sake! I missed that bit of unsurprising news. MineralMan Jul 2021 #16
I wonder if Branson's move is less about interplanetary and more about global travel AZSkiffyGeek Jul 2021 #2
Exactly. Spacex is also targeting global travel. lagomorph777 Jul 2021 #6
That might explain the gushing, Turbineguy Jul 2021 #3
Post removed Post removed Jul 2021 #4
I do not claim to contribute materially to space exploration. MineralMan Jul 2021 #15
I think of it as a Disney ride for billionaires. Walleye Jul 2021 #5
Space travel will be accomplished through public works EYESORE 9001 Jul 2021 #7
These billionaires have no interest in science and discovery. unblock Jul 2021 #8
Their interest is irrelevant fescuerescue Jul 2021 #12
Point is, they do not spend it on basic research because it's not profitable unblock Jul 2021 #30
Exactly ..here's what a REAL astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson had to say PortTack Jul 2021 #9
After pointing out that this didn't advance science, he gave it his approval. Dial H For Hero Jul 2021 #21
Yes, and said he didn't know why it wasn't used b4...it still does nothing to advance the PortTack Jul 2021 #23
Lots of expensive things don't advance science. How is that an issue? Dial H For Hero Jul 2021 #24
The billionaire space-man club undoubtedly spent a fortune developing and flying to "space". panader0 Jul 2021 #10
Many people are forced to own and drive automobiles. hunter Jul 2021 #28
I seriously doubt that we could ever go from ground study fescuerescue Jul 2021 #11
just PR stunts...until the next space disaster nt msongs Jul 2021 #13
Yeah, I don't like to mention potential disasters. MineralMan Jul 2021 #19
you're quite right, but "Future Space Travel" was never the goal IMHO 0rganism Jul 2021 #14
Every orbiting space station must have Earth-based support. MineralMan Jul 2021 #17
I think that's the failure scenario they're trying to avoid, hence the early trial runs 0rganism Jul 2021 #22
"orbital oligarchy" is the goal FoxNewsSucks Jul 2021 #26
That scenario seems very doubtful to me, frankly. MineralMan Jul 2021 #27
"just messing around" is definitely a possibility 0rganism Jul 2021 #29
When your wealth is measured in billions, you can spend a helluva MineralMan Jul 2021 #31
Good opinion piece in Salon about this. Says it's much ado. . . DinahMoeHum Jul 2021 #18
Yup. MineralMan Jul 2021 #20
yes,it only adds to global warming, big time. demigoddess Jul 2021 #25
Got any numbers for that? Disaffected Jul 2021 #32
Sub-orbital flight Disaffected Jul 2021 #33
To add: Disaffected Jul 2021 #34
There is no future for human space travel beyond low earth orbit... hunter Jul 2021 #35
Yes, I tend to agree with you. MineralMan Jul 2021 #36
 

Pantagruel

(2,580 posts)
1. No explanation necessary
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 01:34 PM
Jul 2021

"Billionaire Branson's Virgin Galactic Files To Sell $500 Million In Stock One Day After Reaching Space"

AZSkiffyGeek

(11,029 posts)
2. I wonder if Branson's move is less about interplanetary and more about global travel
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 01:36 PM
Jul 2021

Can he use his technology for faster global flights w/ Virgin Air? Some sort of rocket-assisted commercial air flight? I remember reading some novel years ago that posited bouncing planes off the atmosphere for faster intercontinental flight. That would make sense for Virgin Air.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
6. Exactly. Spacex is also targeting global travel.
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 01:40 PM
Jul 2021

Go anywhere in under an hour.

Also, Branson uses a similar technology to launch small orbital payloads.

Response to MineralMan (Original post)

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
15. I do not claim to contribute materially to space exploration.
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 01:56 PM
Jul 2021

I'm just an observer. You have read my observations, and responded with mere snark.

Walleye

(31,028 posts)
5. I think of it as a Disney ride for billionaires.
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 01:39 PM
Jul 2021

I think really wealthy people have a hard time getting a thrill out of normal things. I really can’t harbor much resentment for it. Fun is fun

EYESORE 9001

(25,943 posts)
7. Space travel will be accomplished through public works
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 01:41 PM
Jul 2021

not vanity flights for billionaires. If one of these jokers accidentally made a discovery or breakthrough with their private endeavor, you think they’d share that with anyone else? Hell NO they wouldn’t! This country is going down the shitter scientifically unless public funds are spent on pure research. Billionaires and corporations will only spend money on research that benefits them. I wish folks would stop smooching their pasty backsides and realize that there’s infinitely more benefit to humanity when these endeavors are funded and conducted as a society and not a dick-waving contest.

unblock

(52,253 posts)
8. These billionaires have no interest in science and discovery.
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 01:42 PM
Jul 2021

They're looking for profit. There's no profit in trying to colonize an exoplanet, at least not in our lifetimes.

Mine a comet for diamonds, maybe.

Otherwise, space tourism seems to be the only profit opportunity.

Capitalists leave the basic research and discovery to academia and in some cases the military. Then they figure out how to appropriate that knowledge and use it to innovate a product or service that makes them money.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
12. Their interest is irrelevant
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 01:49 PM
Jul 2021

1st they are spending their money and that money is going to middle class people.

2nd, they are spending their money paying scientist who use that money to fund their research and development.

So what if they are interested in profit? It's profit that pays scientist and researchers.

unblock

(52,253 posts)
30. Point is, they do not spend it on basic research because it's not profitable
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 02:54 PM
Jul 2021

They do not generally fund science, research, and discovery.

What they fund is engineering and innovation.

PortTack

(32,778 posts)
23. Yes, and said he didn't know why it wasn't used b4...it still does nothing to advance the
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 02:20 PM
Jul 2021

Science, which is the real issue

panader0

(25,816 posts)
10. The billionaire space-man club undoubtedly spent a fortune developing and flying to "space".
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 01:46 PM
Jul 2021

Perhaps someday we may find out how much the vanity flights cost. And the carbon footprint
involved. I'm sure the money could have been put to much better use here on the ground.
They could have funded voting rights, food for the poor, education--you know, real life stuff.
I'm with Senator Sanders on this one--he said that kind of wealth is obscene.

hunter

(38,317 posts)
28. Many people are forced to own and drive automobiles.
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 02:32 PM
Jul 2021

Some people LIKE to commute in automobiles, the bigger the better, to and from jobs that do not make the world a better place.

That's obscene. That's where the larger carbon footprint is. That's where we waste money that would better be spent on the "real life stuff."

The fundamental problem of our society is not billionaires playing with rockets. The problem is right wing billionaires playing with politics.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
11. I seriously doubt that we could ever go from ground study
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 01:47 PM
Jul 2021

To flipping a switch and everyone going into space once it's "figured out"

This will be an incremental process over a much much longer time than we are alive. Heck we could see space wealthy space tourism go on for centuries before it's affordable for all.

Much the same as intercontinental travel. That was realm of only the wealthy and professional for thousands of years.

But if it was just scientist studying intercontinental travel in their offices and labs only, we would still be trying to figure out how to get to North American.

If the super-wealthy want to spend it on small incremental steps for their fun excursions. That's great.

Probably a much better thing than them just hoarding their wealth.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
19. Yeah, I don't like to mention potential disasters.
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 02:05 PM
Jul 2021

They're on my mind, of course, and there will be one, no doubt. Machines break. That is the rule of machines.

0rganism

(23,957 posts)
14. you're quite right, but "Future Space Travel" was never the goal IMHO
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 01:54 PM
Jul 2021

If one wanted to advance interstellar travel for colonization purposes, there'd be a whole bunch of other priorities in action, as you observed. A long-term Lunar presence, including mining and superscalar construction facilities, would be the first sign we were taking such ideas seriously.

But if one expected vast tracts of the planet to become uninhabitable for several decades in the near future, along with associated civil unrest, getting a low-orbit space station to act as a haven for a select set of ultra-wealthy families and their cronies would be on their development short-list. Preparing efficient supply chains including the lowest-possible transport costs would be an important prerequisite. I see these sub-orbital flights as early trial runs for shipping solutions.

The wealthy don't have to totally leave the planet to distance themselves from our earthbound plight.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
17. Every orbiting space station must have Earth-based support.
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 02:01 PM
Jul 2021

"Sorry, Elon! We can't make that next supply flight to your orbiting mansion. Good luck to you."

0rganism

(23,957 posts)
22. I think that's the failure scenario they're trying to avoid, hence the early trial runs
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 02:13 PM
Jul 2021

Single points of failure are red flags. I think these guys are doing early work on the supply fleet(s) that will provide for all the orbital mansions of the uber-rich families when they make the move. The one with the cheapest and most reliable fleet will gain a lot of power in the orbital oligarchy.

FoxNewsSucks

(10,434 posts)
26. "orbital oligarchy" is the goal
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 02:27 PM
Jul 2021

We have a few years yet before they can abandon the polluted planet for their orbiting mansions.




MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
27. That scenario seems very doubtful to me, frankly.
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 02:32 PM
Jul 2021

Personally, I think these billionaires are doing this for shits and giggles, mainly. Plus some publicity to drive up their stock values.

0rganism

(23,957 posts)
29. "just messing around" is definitely a possibility
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 02:43 PM
Jul 2021

not being so well-heeled myself, I have difficulty imagining the lengths someone who has that kind of money will go to for thrills. It's easy to attribute underhanded motives to what might just be really rich assholes showing off.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
31. When your wealth is measured in billions, you can spend a helluva
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 02:59 PM
Jul 2021

lot of money without it affecting your lifestyle at all. So people do that and quite often. They liked a vacation in some place, so they buy another house there. Then, they get bored with going there, and buy another house in some other place they like.

They don't care. It doesn't affect their financial health at all.

It would be like me buying an 80" TV. Now, I don't want one of those, but if I did, I could buy it without dropping a beat, and would not notice the expense much at all.

That's the kind of scale billionaires use to measure such things.

DinahMoeHum

(21,794 posts)
18. Good opinion piece in Salon about this. Says it's much ado. . .
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 02:04 PM
Jul 2021

. . .about very little, and this is little more than a cock-wagging contest among billionaires.

https://www.salon.com/2021/07/07/no-billionaires-wont-escape-to-space-while-the-world-burns/

. . .when you understand the science, it becomes clear that the "billionaire space race" is just that—nothing more than a pissing contest between egotistical robber barons. Branson and Bezos aren't investing their money to forward science or expand the bounds of human possibility. They're doing it to be the first rich guy to bounce around uselessly up there, as opposed to NASA astronauts who, again, do science. And after they bounce around uselessly, they're hoping to swindle more of their obscenely rich friends into doing the same.

Space tourism will inevitably suck. Our billionaires won't find anything up there but a whole lot of time to sit with the gaping void in their hearts, which space certainly won't fill, while forcibly holding their asscheeks to a suctioning toilet seat, because they're constipated as hell from astronaut food.

The world is burning, and billionaires are arguably the people most responsible. But at least they will not be able to escape to some other, better place. They will live and die (alone, like all of us) on this beautiful, precious, one-in-a-gazillion planet.




Disaffected

(4,557 posts)
32. Got any numbers for that?
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 03:08 PM
Jul 2021

I doubt that space or near space travel contributes more than a very small amount to global warming.

Disaffected

(4,557 posts)
33. Sub-orbital flight
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 03:13 PM
Jul 2021

can be used for v rapid human (or cargo) transport over large distances on earth. Perhaps that it what it will morph into if it ever becomes cost effective. I understand the military is also considering it for rapid deployment (for better or worse).

I also understand SpaceX has such am ambition in mind.

Disaffected

(4,557 posts)
34. To add:
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 03:18 PM
Jul 2021

"Don't plan on taking a trip to some new planet in your lifetime, or even watching others do so. That's not happening. It's just not."

I wouldn't dismiss that with such certainty. I believe there is a v good possibility that SpaceX will land folks on Mars, maybe not within "Elon" time, but within say 10 years from now.

hunter

(38,317 posts)
35. There is no future for human space travel beyond low earth orbit...
Mon Jul 12, 2021, 03:31 PM
Jul 2021

... no matter how much money we throw at it, public or private.

Ordinary natural born humans will never have a significant presence in space. We're just too damned fragile. Even here on earth Antarctica is a difficult environment for us despite abundant air, water, and radiation shielding.

Antarctica is the one place without indigenous humans. We humans managed to thrive almost everywhere else we landed, including remote Pacific Islands, the shores of the Arctic Ocean, and the deserts of Australia, many thousands of years ago.

Likewise, faster-than-light travel doesn't seem possible in this universe. That's a good thing because dangerous invasive species are largely quarantined within the solar systems they evolved in.

If this is a created universe that was probably part of the plan. (Shout out to Ben Franklin.)

A lot of science fiction is pure fantasy.

I think the people building rockets for joy-riding billionaires have much better jobs than those building useless things like the F-35 or aircraft carriers.

World War III was never going to be a repeat of WWI and WWII. Everything changed on on July 16, 1945.

This future seems more likely to me:



Here's your future Martian. Be nice to her.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2317225/

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