Pfizer is only supposed 40% aganist the Delta Variant

[discocrisco01]

So does that mean Moderna is the best vaccine and not Pfizer. JJ has its issues and Pfizer appears now to have issues as well.

[Baitball Blogger]

1. What it means to me is that taking another dose of Pfizer isn't worth it, unless they fixed the

cocktail to include protection against the Delta.

[LisaL]

4. Only that's not how it works.

Third dose of Pfizer increases antibodies 5-10 fold.
So third dose is going to be helpful.

[hlthe2b]

10. LisaL is correct. Boosters are to increase antibodies and they do. Israel vaccinated long enough ago

that some reduction in immunity would be expected. 88-91% efficacy against severe disease and hospitalization under current circulating Delta variant in Israel is still excellent.

[Bev54]

45. This post is a bit misleading here is the rest of the story at CNBC

"Pfizer and BioNTech’s Covid-19 vaccine is just 39% effective in Israel where the delta variant is the dominant strain, according to a new report from the country’s Health Ministry.

The two-dose vaccine still works very well in preventing people from getting seriously sick, demonstrating 88% effectiveness against hospitalization and 91% effectiveness against severe illness, according to the Israeli data."

[samnsara]

2. may be time for a voluntary booster..

..hubby jabs at the local pharmacy... i may just get in line

[viva la]

39. Can you just get one without saying you'd already had 2?

I'm kind of willing to do that because I have had some immuno-suppressant drugs in the past (not recently) and got the Pfizer in February.

But I'm not sure that the "jabbers" would be open to that?

Also, how do we know which vax we'd get? Do the pharmacies say ahead of time?

[LisaL]

3. No, because we don't know how effective Moderna would be.

Israel only used Pfizer, so they don't have data for Moderna.

[Hugin]

11. The only thing I've heard about Moderna vs Pfizer is that they are functionally similar.

Both being mRNA vaccines.

I've also heard that Moderna produces somewhat more (no idea if it's a significant amount) antibodies in the two dose inoculating regimen.

It's a shame we're back to hearsay.

[LisaL]

18. Moderna and Pfizer give similar results in a lab on how effective they are against the variants.

I don't think Moderna's results will be different from Pfizer's in how effective they are against delta.

[Hugin]

22. I'm thinking that will be shown to be the case.

Would you happen to know if during the trials the participants were following the other protocols? Primarily masking, but, also distancing, isolation, etc?

[LisaL]

26. Those were lab studies.

They take blood from vaccinated people and see how well antibodies neutralize mutant viruses.
Moderna's and Pfizers results are basically the same in how effective they are against delta (and most other variants). I had Moderna, and I am not concerned at all that its any better or worse than Pfizer.

[Hugin]

30. Okay, great...

That makes it a little clearer to me. In-vitro studies. If that's what they are called.

These studies being released now are how the vaccines are performing mapping infections in patients to which vaccine they received, right?

[LisaL]

32. The 40% number is coming from Israel.

That was done on actual people (analysis of infection rates, hospitalizations etc). But Israel only used Pfizer, so they have no data for Moderna.

[Ms. Toad]

43. It uses 3x the mRNA to create essentially identical antibodies. n/t

[hlthe2b]

5. No. There is no reason to believe they are not comparable. The Pfizer vaccine is still

highly effective in preventing severe disease (91%) hospitalization (88%) and death, but against Delta less so for mild infection. That is still excellent efficacy against the very reason we developed vaccines to begin with--preventing serious morbidity and mortality.

Moderna would be comparable given the similarities in the method of development and activity. Israel used Pfizer extensively and not Moderna so we don't have data on the latter.

[Tadpole Raisin]

6. Maybe I read this wrong but

I thought Israel only used Pfizer vaccine so those numbers from the Israeli study are for Pfizer. Is that right?

[LisaL]

7. Yes, that's correct.

Israel used Pfizer, not Moderna. We don't have a comparable study done for Moderna.
But Moderna and Pfizer seem to give very similar results for everything.

[Johnny2X2X]

8. The Israeli study is dubious

UK provided their data for a similar study and it showed 88% for Pfizer against the Delta Variant. There’s no data released with the Israeli study, I’d wait and see on it.

[LisaL]

9. UK's data was for those infected before end of May.

So don't count on 88% holding.
Israel's latest data is much more recent.

[Johnny2X2X]

24. You're mischaracterizing things

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891
“ Only modest differences in vaccine effectiveness were noted with the delta variant as compared with the alpha variant after the receipt of two vaccine doses. Absolute differences in vaccine effectiveness were more marked after the receipt of the first dose. This finding would support efforts to maximize vaccine uptake with two doses among vulnerable populations. (Funded by Public Health England.)”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-is-less-effective-against-delta-infections-but-still-prevents-serious-illness-israel-study-shows-11627059395

“ The findings, which are preliminary and based on a small sample, suggest that after two shots the vaccine was 39% effective at reducing the risk of infection and 40% effective at reducing the risk of symptomatic disease during a period when the Delta variant dominated cases in Israel, according to the country’s Health Ministry. The vaccine was 91% effective at preventing severe illness in the same period between June 20 and July 17, the ministry said.”

The big difference is that the UK study was more controlled and with a valid sample size. And the UK study actually took the time to make sure their sample was only the Delta, so when it happened is irrelevant.

[LisaL]

28. The big difference is that UK study was done while alpha was still dominant.

On people who got infected before end of May.
I don't think there is any way they would get 88% efficacy for June/July.
Want to place a bet?

[Tomconroy]

40. Yes. I will bet a large martini.

[Johnny2X2X]

41. the UK study controlled for Delta

The Israeli study didn’t.

[PurgedVoter]

12. Pfizer is hugely effective against the worst symptoms

It is not amazingly effective at keeping you from getting Delta, but a 40% chance with a pair of injections is a lot better than a week down. In addition it is very effective from keeping you from having the worst symptoms, so while it might not be perfect, it will let you survive a hit that might then give you a much better resistance.

Not a perfect vaccine, still a great vaccine.

I had moderna, the problem with moderna is that it is the vaccine that no one tells you anything about. It is barely mentioned in passing with no statistics when the other vaccines are constantly detailed.

[LisaL]

16. It was designed against an original virus.

Where it was highly effective in preventing infection.
Delta is much more infectious and people with delta have much high virus loads.
So it's not surprising it's less effective in preventing infection.
As for Moderna, I also had it.
Every study done so far showed Moderna and Pfizer give similar results.

[Ms. Toad]

44. There's plenty of data out there about Moderna.

It is essentially identical to Pfizer.

This study from Israel doesn't, since Israel administered few if any Moderna vaccinations.

[Arkansas Granny]

13. Most new cases in US are Delta variant. The vast majority of cases are unvaccinated.

This makes me think that Pfizer, Moderna and J&J are all effective against Delta variant. I have no idea what the breakthrough rates are with each one, but I feel relatively safe from infection.

FWIW, I am still masking up and avoiding crowds.

ETA: I had Moderna. Fully vaxxed since March. If a booster is recommended, I'll get in line.

[LisaL]

14. Vast majority of serious cases leading to hospitalization or death.

And there lies the difference.

[Phoenix61]

15. A study in the UK has it at 88%.

Interesting article Is the Israel study or the UK study correct?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpost.com/%2520israel-pfizer-news/is-israel-or-the-uk-right-when-it-comes-to-covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-674766/amp

[LisaL]

17. Again.

That study was done on those infected before the end of May.
Israel's data is much more recent, June, July.

[Phoenix61]

19. Ok, one of the points the article raised is

Israel vaccinated people, the elderly and health care workers, in January while the UK had a slower rollout. The UK also had a more time between the first and second does which seems to be the sweet spot. Several other points made.

[LisaL]

21. If UK analyzed their stats now, I don't think they would get 88% efficacy.

When the study was done in UK, alpha was still a dominant variant.
Now it's delta.
A lot can change in a few months.

[Phoenix61]

27. It's seems the definitions used in the Israel study may need some tweaking.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-study-claims-major-drop-in-vaccine-protection-experts-dont-believe-it/amp/

[Eugene]

20. Due to small sample sizes, the numbers are all over the place.

The latest report was that the Pfizer vaccine is about ~85% effective against the delta variant. Others range from 65% to 90%.

Israel is giving booster shots to certain at-risk populations (immunocompromised, elderly, etc.)

Moderna vs Pfizer: differences may not be statistically significant

[Lovie777]

23. UK Medical said 88% effective . .

[Phoenix61]

25. It seems the definition of "serious illness" needs some work.

This is from a doctor at an Israel hospital talking about oxygen levels.
“Take a patient who is in my hospital now as an example,” she said. “He is in his 80s and classed as severe, but only because he had a mild drop in saturation. It was something that any other disease would cause, and which we’re treating well with steroids, but he is classed as a serious case.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-study-claims-major-drop-in-vaccine-protection-experts-dont-believe-it/amp/

[LisaL]

29. The major difference, though, is the rate of infection.

Which is done by PCR (positive or negative).

[Phoenix61]

31. I was referring to this.

“Report says protection against serious COVID-19 illness fell to 80%, or 50% for over-60s; government adviser, physician and health statistics expert all criticize research”

[wiggs]

33. As Fauci said in the very, very beginning re pandemics: we are always chasing the virus in

terms of knowledge, prep, understanding, treatment. Always behind by weeks. Always playing catch up.

Seems that, since early days of the pandemic, lack of clarity has been part of the dynamic.

[wiggs]

34. Wonder if higher breakthrough cases are partially a result of more vaccinated people dropping

their guards a bit? Feeling invulnerable? It was said in recent months that you are 'protected' against the virus without clarification of what 'protected' means, and I think many of us interpreted that to mean you can't get infected in the first place. Which, now, we believe is not correct.

Vaccination = more activity around others = more exposure

[Fiendish Thingy]

35. That is a false statement with no data to back it up- you should delete. Nt

[Bad Thoughts]

36. Statistics, not lab work

It's important to keep in mind that the 40% number reflects the numbers coming in, not tests that are going on in the lab. Under 40% is somewhat discouraging, but it does not impugn the effectiveness of the vaccine in and of itself. Instead, it shows problems with the effects it is having at the public at large, given the current social and health policies.

Israel is still under 60% two-dose vaccinations. That is under what is predicted for herd immunity to take effect, for any of these vaccines to do what we need.

The story shouldn't be about the vaccine, but about health policy and how the vaccines fit into the broader fight against CV19.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-sees-drop-pfizer-vaccine-protection-against-infections-still-strong-2021-07-05/

[Tomconroy]

37. There have been six studies so far of the vaccine's

Effectiveness against the Delta variant. All of the studies except one (whose methodology has been criticized) show the vaccine to be highly effective.



https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-19-vaccines-work-against-the-delta-variant#Vaccines-vs.-delta-variant

[brooklynite]

38. "Pfizer Vaccine 88% effective against Delta Variant" - New England Journal of Medicine

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142773460

[Ms. Toad]

42. First - the study suggesting that does not appear to have made enough

data available so the results can be confirmed. In addition, scientists have questioned study methods.

It is possible Israel’s findings diverge from other studies in reflection of the fact they have had access to vaccines for longer than most other parts of the world. In other words, it is the most up to date and accurate assessment of the Pfizer shot against Delta. However, the Israel health ministry has not revealed the data behind their results and there are a number of issues in the way the study appears to have been conducted that could create uncertainty. The study did not, for example, take the steps needed to rule out alternative explanations for the lower efficacy, such as bias in who is tested for Covid-19.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/07/23/pfizer-shot-just-39-effective-against-delta-infection-but-largely-prevents-severe-illness-israel-study-suggests/?sh=5b113c94584f

Second - Israel did not administer Moderna (as of February - I didn't find later info), so it can't study what it doesn't administer. There is no reason to believe that Pfizer and Moderna create vastly different immunity (whether that is around 88% - as at least two studies have suggested - or this lower level).

This is such an outlier that I am suspicious. Certainly something to watch, but nothing to lose sleep over.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

46. I suspect that Moderna and Pfzier will have the same or close the same results

Pfzier has more data due to the deal that Pfzier made with Israel (Israel got a ton of vaccine early and agreed to report results)

My son is in the Pfzier trial and has been asked to participate in booster trial. I suspect that we will all be taking boosters in the future to maintain antibody response