People use all kinds of supplements that are not FDA approved

[milestogo]

and have no proven benefits.

Supplements that supposedly improve your brain
Supplements that supposedly help you lose weight
Supplements that supposedly fortify your immune system
Drugs with absolutely no proven value
Drugs which could be harmful, or whose side effects have not been studied

And yet, they resist the vaccine.

[no_hypocrisy]

1. I take at least 15 different supplements a day.

I avoid pharmaceuticals by bolstering my overall constitution with supplements. I don't worry about the FDA not "approving" them as long as they don't criminalize them.

[SCantiGOP]

18. FDA has not "criminalized" bleach

So, can someone take that for medical reasons?
You need to let your doctor know what you are taking. A lot of seemingly harmless supplements can be dangerous or even deadly in combination or in excess.

[no_hypocrisy]

21. I already have. My primary is a doctor of osteopathy and approves of supplements.

She has a list with each one including dosage and how many per day.

Thanks!

[USALiberal]

23. Lol, ok! Nt

[Earth-shine]

58. Are you sure you're a liberal?

Somebody tells you of their experiences and you just think they are lying?

[USALiberal]

61. I don't think you're lying I think you really believe it works. Nt

[Earth-shine]

63. Because placebos? Yes?

I understand the concept of "placebo." I have a minor in psychology.

You seem to think that science is a process of black-and-white skepticism and that you are qualified to be an adjudicator.

Science is a process of discovery that begins with a hypothesis.

My hypothesis and observation: I took a nutritional supplement and unexpectedly, my veins dried up. I stopped taking it and the veins came back. I repeated this over the years.

Who are you to say it didn't happen? Where's the evidence it couldn't happen?

You don't have to prove the negative. Just offer any evidence at all!

Find a link anywhere that says free radicals don't damage the vascular system!

[wnylib]

29. Supplements are ok IF you know

what you are doing and what is in them. I don't remember which group did the study, but they found that several supplements did not have even a trace of what they claimed to provide.

About 10 years ago, I had a severe vitamin D deficiency that led to TIAs (mini strokes). A neurologist put me on a megadose of prescription vitamin D until it got back to normal levels. Subsequent monitoring showed that my levels dropped again if I did not take a daily maintenance dose of 2000 units. That's units, not milligrams.

Vitamin D is fat soluble so I take it with meals that have some fat content, preferably the "good fat" that comes with fish, pecans, walnuts, etc.

Vitamin D, fats, calcium, and vitamin A work together so I make sure that I get the rest in my foods. It's easy to look up the vitamin and mineral content of foods.

Some supplements are harmful, like calcium. Taken in supplements, it forms deposits in arteries instead of being absorbed. This is why most vitamin D producers stopped mixing them in one pill. Food sources of calcium are far superior, safer, and plentiful in plants and dairy.

So careful research from credible sources is necessary if taking supplenents, and food sources are preferable.

[Mad_Machine76]

45. I don't think supplements are *bad* per se

OP is just pointing out the hypocrisy of anti-vaxxers refusing to get vaxxed but being fine with non-FDA approved supplements and medication, which IMHO suggests that their objections are simply not genuine.

[wnylib]

49. Yes, I understand the point of the OP.

I was addressing the posts that sounded gullible and even harmful regarding supplements.

Some supplements are a harmless waste of money. But some are definitely harmful, like calcium or excessive amounts of vitamin A, which can be toxic. Excessive potassium is toxic, too, and can throw electrolytes off balance. The various B vitamins need to be in proportion to each other, more of some than of others, but some B supplements call themselves "balanced" by having huge equal amounts of each. Some supplements interfere with or react negatively with prescribed medicines.

So it's necessary to get sound information before taking supplements.

A few years ago, when I had surgery at a well regarded medical center, prior to the surgery, they wanted to know prescribed meds, over the counter meds, and all supplements that I might be taking because supplements as well as meds could have an influence on anesthesia, blood flow, etc.

[Sgent]

2. You forgot my favorite:

Supplements are not regulated as to ingredients or manufacturing process, are not required to do testing that might indicate harmful chemicals such as arsenic or lead, and not required (and often don't) to match what is on the label with what is in the bottle.

If you need to take supplements, at least look for ones with a US Pharmacopia checkmark.

[dalton99a]

17. +1

[ProfessorGAC]

35. Only If They're Compliant...

...with USP or cGMP.
Both of those standards (the latter being set by FDA) include heavy metals & halogenated organics in the specifications.
But, these standards are voluntary, and no company is legally required to adhere.
Only legal lever is that if label them as USP, or declare them made by cGMP, they better be. There can be major economic consequences if the product is stated as such but they don't meet the standards.
Because it's voluntary, there are certainly products out there that are meeting no standard other the trade laws, meaning if it says 1,000IU, it can't be 900. But, that's a truth in labeling issue, not a safety & efficacy assurance.

[Earth-shine]

3. Everyone in the world should take OPC.

It is a highly effective free-radical scavenger.

Free radicals cause arthritis, varicose veins, cancers, random pain, and so much more.

There are numerous brands to choose from. I like this one, largely because it's not too sweet.

https://www.amazon.com/OProCyn-Isotonic-OPC-Month-Supplement/dp/B07VRZ2Q4T/ref=sxts_rp_s1_0

Spider veins improve and varicosities can disappear over the course of months. It did for me and others I know.

I started taking it 25 years ago when there was only one brand.

[USALiberal]

24. Pure BS....

Legal Disclaimer :
Statements regarding dietary supplements have not been evaluated by the FDA and are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease or health condition.

[CrackityJones75]

27. Wife is a GC for a major supplement company.

She is also a big supplement skeptic. There are supplements with peer reviewed research that backs up the claims. It is the biggest part of her job to review what goes on the labels and in the ads as far as claims.

[Earth-shine]

41. Well that sounds authoritative!

I'll just disregard my varied and long-standing personal experiences because you say so.

[USALiberal]

53. Research the placebo effect. Nt

[Earth-shine]

54. Another useless, pointless, vacuous, unresearched, full-of-self-pride statement.

You have no basis for anything you say except that you say so.

[Disaffected]

56. Hmm,

"Another useless, pointless, vacuous, unresearched, full-of-self-pride statement."

Seems that applies more to yourself rather than anything USALiberal has said on the topic

[Earth-shine]

57. Oh, we have another self-proclaimed authority.

I speak from personal experience.

Neither of you has anything of substance to say. Just blanket statements of your own groundless opinions.

[Disaffected]

59. Hmm,

"Oh, we have another self-proclaimed authority."

Similar comments above apply here.

FYI, "personal experience" in the determination of the efficacy (and side effects) of drugs or supplements are unreliable in the extreme for several reasons and should therefore be given little value.

"Neither of you has anything of substance to say. Just blanket statements of your own groundless opinions."

There you go again...

You are the one making the claim, you are the one obligated to provide the evidence (credible, science based evidence that is).

[Earth-shine]

62. I completely disagree. I have nothing to prove to you.

You are calling me a liar, but offering NOTHING!

There's simply no reason to continue this discussion.

[Disaffected]

64. I am not calling

you a liar, I'm saying you are making dubious claims w/o justification - the two are not the same.

"There's simply no reason to continue this discussion."

Now there is something we can agree on.

[in2herbs]

28. I take 60 drops of liquid Maritime Pine Bark every day, have for years. You are right, it is $$,

about $250 for a 500 ml bottle. I also am convinced that one of the best AIs is CBD oil, a quality one when taken in the right quantity. I take between 1,000 and 1,500 mg/day CBD.

[Earth-shine]

47. Pine Bark is indeed a good oligoproanthocyanidin (OPC) antioxidant.

In the 1800s, French sailors discovered that by chewing pine bark, they didn't get scurvy. (One of the properties of OPCs is that they assist the function of the Vitamin C molecule.)

I can't calculate what you are paying per dose based on your info.

It costs less than 50 cents a day for products such as the one I identified.

You are saying CBD oil (medical cannabis) is an antioxidant? I've never heard that. I've heard anti-inflammatory.

I've tried some. It's certainly relaxing.

[in2herbs]

67. No, I said CBD oil was an excellent AI (anti-inflammatory), with the caveat added that it must

be of good quality and taken at a high enough dose for the inflammation.

[wnylib]

32. Free radicals do NOT cause varicose veins.

They are also not caused be excessive weight. They are caused by valve malfunctions in the veins that allow blood to pool instead of flow freely. They are hereditary. I had a paternal aunt who was very slim and weight conscious, and had varicose veins in her legs and hands. My mother had them, too.

Physical activity helps. So do compression stockings. Or, surgery, and preferably shots that dissolve them, letting the blood flow through healthier veins.

Supplements for varicose veins only benefit the people who manufacture and sell them, along with the ones who write about them in books and produce nonsense infomercials.

[Earth-shine]

40. I'm so sorry to tell you ...

free radicals weaken those valves and the veinal walls, as well as cause so much other aging-type damage in our bodies.

I have really big calves, and have had ugly varicose veins in that area seemingly caused by those muscles pushing against the skin.

The more I exercised, the more the veins would show. Compression socks did not help.

The product was recommended to me by a friend as a general antioxidant-type nutritional supplement years ago. She didn't mention the vascular system.

A few weeks later, the veins went away. Months later, I stopped taking it, the veins came back.

And so, a few times, over the decades, I play with it. I try different products. Veins come and go based on which product I use, but it takes weeks to see results, either way.

It's 25 years of personal experience. My wife and some friends and family have similar stories.

A Google search on the terms "oxidative stress veins" produces a bunch of scientific papers that are beyond my reading level, but show that research is being done on the subject.

[wnylib]

50. Genetic, not environmental.

Some environmental things can aggravate the inherited trait of varicose veins. If your regimen works for you, that's fine, but it is not a panacea for all people with varicose veins and I'm inclined to believe that your success is due as much to belief as to actual physical results.

I have 50 years of experience with a very prominent varicose vein in one leg and minor ones in the other. I have held jobs that required standing for hours with no adverse effects. I have also had jobs that required sitting most of the day. The sitting jobs aggravated the veins far worse than the ones where I stood and moved about for long periods.

[Earth-shine]

51. You have varicose veins, you have never tried what works for me, so therefore, ...

... I must be wrong.

You have 50 years of failure. I have 25 years of success.

>> " I'm inclined to believe that your success is due as much to belief as to actual physical results."

I'll try not to be insulted. Easy enough, based on your writings.

Your belief in your beliefs will ensure you die with those veins.

This conversation ends.

[wnylib]

52. I will grant that some aggravating

influences on varicose veins are related to inflammation from foods. In my case, I found that some foods caused the veins to be inflamed, swollen, and painful. Testing for other reasons than the veins showed a number of food allergies. When I eliminated them, the inflammation, swelling, and pain in the varicose veins went away, too. The veins remained varicose, but not problematic to me.

There are foods that have natural antioxidents which act as anti-inflammatories. They prevent or reduce inflammations in the body. Blueberries are one example, and green tea is another. Reducing sugar intake and eating or drinking antioxident foods can prevent or alleviate inflammation. In other words, a healthy diet (without need for "special supplement" formulas) can avoid or stop the swelling and pain of inflamed veins.

But no food or supplement can eliminate the genetic valve malfunction of varicose veins and make them go away.

[Earth-shine]

60. If one's veins or valves are damaged from being malformed, nutritional supps cannot help.

If one's veins are damaged from life's hard knocks, they can be improved. That's my experience.

I developed varicose veins when I was about 25. They were eliminated four weeks after I tried OPCs when I was about 31.

I've experimented. After a few weeks of not taking it, the veins come back, along with more body pains.

Blueberries have bioflavonoids that are like OPCs. Blueberries and other dark berries are excellent sources of antioxidants. If one eats enough blueberries and red grapes, supplements would not be needed.

I've heard that with green tea, one would have to drink gallons of it every day to get the benefits. Hence the popularity of concentrated green tea supplements. It's not one that I take.

Currently, I only take OPC, and vitamins B and D.

[wnylib]

65. Didn't you say in previous post that this

conversation is ended?

'Bye.

[Earth-shine]

66. Sorry multiple conversations going on. I have a solution!

You are now on ignore.

[Merlot]

4. Even FDA approved drugs have a long list of possible side effects

[gab13by13]

22. There is a good case

for prescription drugs being the #1 cause of death in the US.

I have a true story about my best work buddy. He was born with 1 kidney and got cancer in it. He went to the Cleveland Clinic where the surgeon operated on him. The surgeon told him he took out 30% of his kidney because of cancer but took 40% more out because Prilosec attacked his kidney also. My buddy survived and is living with 30% of 1 kidney without the need for dialysis. I gave him the knickname "Bull" at work, it suits him. This story about Prilosec came from the surgeon at the Cleveland clinic so I trust its validity. My buddy, by the way, took a lot of Prilosec because of a hiatal hernia.

[Archae]

5. Most of the vitamins and minerals in supplements...

Get flushed out when we pee.

Every time, and this is EVERY time, supplement advocates are asked to actually *GASP* do science with their advocacy they fail.

And the "science" they do crow about is usually just testimonials.

[wackadoo wabbit]

11. What type of science are you talking about?

There are numerous scientific papers published in reputable journals that indicate the efficacy of different vitamins, minerals, and herbs against different diseases. Don't take my word for it; go to pubmed and search for yourself. Are any of these papers "science" enough for you?

[Earth-shine]

48. You could be describing a few things ...

The key logical moderator is the word most.

1) The typical compact vitamin pill does not break down well. Any contents not absorbed will be excreted.

2) Some supplements contain huge amounts of X, to make up for the fact that most of X will be excreted.

3) Whether from pills or whole foods, water-soluble vitamins like vitamin C are consumed, absorbed, and put to work. When the vitamin molecules are depleted, they are excreted.


Vitamins from any source don't do any good unless they are "bio-available," meaning they can easily be absorbed by normal digestion.

[snowybirdie]

6. Just more

Snake oil updated for the 21st Century.

[Archae]

7. I believe the phrase is, "They saw them coming..."

As in pulling in the suckers.

Supplement makers are making money hand over fist, while providing nothing.

[Tree-Hugger]

8. My favorite....

The MLM shills who boast the miraculous curative properties of their various essential oils, detox teas, juice cleanses. All these boasted as preventatives and cures for Covid among the thousands of other diseases. None are FDA regulated.

[milestogo]

14. My liver, kidneys, and respiratory system are my detox tools.

Fibre is my colon cleanse.

[Siwsan]

9. I take, and cook with, garlic and turmeric along with taking L-Methyl Folate and B-12

My APN has me taking the last two and said taking the first two is a good idea, because of their anti-inflammatory properties and other benefits. She also confirmed that my taking daily doses of turmeric was likely what mitigated the effects of Shingles, when I had it a couple of years ago. Just a bit of discomfort with no pain and minimal blisters/rash.

And I grow my own garlic.

[quaint]

10. Those work for me, too.

And kitties are excellent for stress relief (thanks for sharing yours).

[Siwsan]

12. You are most welcome!

I had all four of them climbing on me, this morning. Right now they are napping so I was able to get some housework done. Of course, I worried the noise from the vacuum cleaner would disturb them but they slept through the whole chore.

The family is coming by today for one of our Sunday family dinners so the kittens will get a lot of attention. The best part is, my niece and her husband are bringing the meal, so I don't have to do ANYTHING but enjoy.

[USALiberal]

26. I did it a simpler way, shingles vaccine! Nt

[Siwsan]

37. Actually I totally agree but then there was this friend.........

She got the vaccine, and it was likely just a question of timing, but shortly after she developed a horrific case of shingles. Deep pain, massive rash/blisters all across her (as I recall) upper chest. She was miserable for months.

It wasn't long after she shared her experience with me that I realized I'd developed shingles so I was prepared for agony. It just didn't happen.

I guess I have to have some sort of blood test to see if I will actually need to get the vaccine but if I do, that will have to wait a couple more years, according to my APN.

[wnylib]

34. Garlic and tumeric have scientific studies

that back their value. Some people need B12 supplements if their body does not metabolize it well from foods, or if they are vegetarians.

I use fresh garlic a lot because I like foods that have it in their recipies. I also make my own soups often and turmeric is one of the seasonings that goes into them.

When your supplement advice comes from a medical person, as in your case, it is usually (though not always) good advice.

I cringe at people who grab supplements off the store shelf, or order them online just because some pseudo-scientific source made fantastic claims about it.

Old-fashioned healthy eating, sleep, excercise, and fresh air are best in most circumstances.

[Siwsan]

38. I was raised on meals that were homemade from scratch. Very little boxed stuff

Although I sometimes get lazy, for the most part I cook meals from scratch. I honestly can't remember the last time I even ate restaurant food. I'm a really good cook and it's MUCH cheaper and healthier.

As for the supplement, apparently I have a problem processing B-12 so the supplement combo helps.

[wnylib]

44. Re: B12 supplement

I just corrected my post when I realized that I typed "vitamin D" instead of B12. I had D on my mind from a previous post.

I also grew up in a home where things were cooked from scratch. I don't call myself a good cook, but there are some things that I do very well, others that are just average.

For a while I got lazy and used prepared foods and mixes. But, some food allergies, cholesterol concerns, and a limit on some foods that interact badly with a med, pushed me back to homemade meals even further than what I grew up with. More fresh veggies and fruits (from the ones that I can eat), my own sauces and soups, sometimes my own bread, and overall, a better balance and variety.

I have a similar problem with vitamin D that you have with B12, so I take a daily supplement and the blood level is always checked when I have labs done for my yearly physical.

[Siwsan]

46. She actually has me on D, too

The last blood tests showed I'm doing good with D but need to keep an eye on the B-12.

[keithbvadu2]

13. My mother told me that my sister bought some memory pills..

My mother told me that my sister bought some memory pills...

but sis often forgot to take them.

[DavidDvorkin]

15. You're assuming it's the same people in both cases

I wonder how much overlap there is between the two groups.

[LisaL]

19. The same people who refuse vaccines are buying horse anti-parasite medicine that doesn't

actually do anything for covid.

[RobinA]

68. I Know, Right?

And who do they think makes Ivermectin? It doesn't grow on trees. They don't mine it. No Ivermectin harvesting season. Pharma makes Ivermectin.

[milestogo]

25. Well, the thought came to me after the same person who posted an anti-vax meme

on facebook (nursing mother) posted again asking for advice about BlackOxygen powder.

[DavidDvorkin]

39. This only demonstrates an overlap

I interpreted the OP to mean that those who take supplements of all kinds and those who refuse vaccinations are mostly the same group. Perhaps that's not what was meant.

[dalton99a]

16. "What heavy metals in my supplements? But the Chinese are using ethylene oxide in the Covid tests

to KILL Americans!"

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-swabs/fact-check-covid-19-nasal-swabs-sterilised-with-ethylene-oxide-are-safe-to-use-idUSL1N2P30YI

July 27, 2021 7:07 AM
Fact Check - COVID-19 nasal swabs sterilised with ethylene oxide are safe to use
By Reuters Fact Check

Nasal swabs included with COVID-19 tests have not been sterilised with the main ingredient in antifreeze, nor are they killing people, despite claims made in a video online.

The 80-second clip has been shared by hundreds of social media users and features an unidentified man refusing to take a swab – instead choosing to explain why he believes they pose a threat to health (here , here , here).

Pointing to the “sterile EO” note on the swab’s packaging, he says: “It’s sterilised here dry. No effect. But once you put it inside someone’s nose, it’s wet. Once you inhale it, it’s actually unbeatable. You can look it up. That’s going to kill us. It’s actually killing people.”

“Sterile EO” means the swab has been sterilised using ethylene oxide, a type of gas that the man also notes is a carcinogen. He adds: “So it’ll give you Hodgkins lymphoma and in females greatly increases chances of breast cancer.”

[ProfessorGAC]

36. The Guy Being Fact Checked In This Piece...

...is a blithering idiot.
There is almost nothing about his claims that's correct with regard to ethylene oxide.
The one error in the fact check though, relates to the residual EO. It says the amount is negligible. I say it's actually essentially none.
Even without a initiator to open the ring ether quickly, that will still happen slowly and any "negligible" EO would react with atmospheric moisture to form ethylene oxide.
Now, there might be a negligible amount of EG on the swab, but EG is orders of magnitude less harmful than EO.
That's a small point, as they do a good job of stomping on the fool who made these claims.

[TalenaGor]

20. since when do they value regulation?

[getagrip_already]

30. and then there are preppers, buying aquarium grade antibiotics and pharma....

These aren't even approved for use in livestock. They are completely unregulated and untested, frequently coming from china.

But they buy them and self prescribe them. Because freedumb.

But a vaccine taken safely by a billion people worldwide; not yet approved (until it is and then they will have a different cry).

Heck, you can't even use those on honey bees (there are certain brood diseases that can be treated with antibiotics - which require a veterinarian to issue a prescription).

[TexasBushwhacker]

31. Yup, my anti COVID-19 vaccine boss and his wife say

1) It's no worse than the flu
2) That God knows exactly when and how they will die so vaccines are pointless (and that they will be RAPTURED of course)
3) But they are taking Vitamin D, Zinc and have gotten prescriptions for Hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin.
4) And the election was stolen from Trump of course.

[Traildogbob]

33. We have

A heavy concentration of snake handling, tambourine beating nut bag churches here in Western North Carolina. “No masks, no Vax,” ain’t putting that shit in my body! Thinking maybe we should convince them to do vaccines instead of snake venomous fangs to show their faith in THAT god. If they survive, that god is real. Talking in tongues is much easier to interpret when the tongue talker ain’t wreathing in pain from deadly venom. A lot less painful than rattlesnake pricks to show your faith.

[fmdaddio]

42. John Oliver on Supplements

[link:http://

&t=1s|

[Mad_Machine76]

43. And when they get sick with COVID

they reach for non-FDA approved "treatments" for COVID such as Hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin. Or have to resort to expensive drugs like Remdesavir when 1-2 jabs they could have avoided COVID or had to just deal with a mild case.



Like, who wants to take livestock de-wormer? I mean, really?