Fidel Castro is near a neurovegetative state from a stroke. Good.

[DonRedwood]

In the 90s I was lucky enough to spend a month in a rental car, driving around the entire island of Cuba. The people were warm and wonderful, thrilled to meet an American. We were treated so well by the people but throughout our visit the police would stop us, would arrest people who were talking to us, they took my friend away leaving me stranded at 4 in the morning in a slum on the far reaches of Havana.

I was also able to spend almost the same amount of time in the former Soviet Union. I made it as far as Moscow before my VISA expired. There too the people were wonderful and the police followed me everywhere and hassled the people who spoke to me.

But Cuba was much worse than the Soviet Union. The people we met had very little. Their spirits were nearly broken. Fidel Castro and his cronies sucked the life out of those people and that country. I have never seen a country where the government has worked so hard to destroy the will and spirit of their people.

I cheer that Castro is on his death bed. May Cuba break free from the chains of communism.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/10/18/3056621/fidel-castro-suffered-a-stroke.html

[Lint Head]

1. Will that be the morning headline? Castro Dead

It would create an economic boost for Cuba and us.

[flamingdem]

2. Reallly? I think you might be disappointed

This is no doubt a right wing rumor, every October there's a new one. Fidel's son said he's fine and working on a book.

[Nye Bevan]

3. Capitalism is the worst system, except for all of the others (nt)

[hrmjustin]

8. +1

[Marr]

93. Really? Want to compare Cuba to Haiti?

Comparing Cuba to the United States is a bit silly. When compared to sister nations that enjoy US "protection", it's looks a lot better. Without the embargo, the comparison would be even worse.

[alarimer]

129. Better medical care too.

At least everyone is covered. Unlike the US where you simply die without insurance or go bankrupt.

What would it have been like without the embargo? My guess is they would have been much better off.

We deal politically with much worse people than the Castros. We have propped up any number of right-wing dictators, simply because they were not "communist."

[obamanut2012]

135. Without the embargo?

Probably very similar to Costa Rica, I bet.

[DonRedwood]

4. link to miami harald

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/10/18/3056621/fidel-castro-suffered-a-stroke.html

[CreekDog]

82. You're saying they let you rent a car in car-starved Cuba?

that they in this vicious dictatorship in the 90's, they let you roam at will with your rented car, talking to people who were allowed to say bad things about the government --bad enough to get them arrested upon your departure?

curious what kind of car you rented there. must have been pretty good, it got you around the entire island for a month!

[deaniac21]

5. Cstro is harder to kill than a cockroach.

[flamingdem]

6. Same dude that spends his life claiming that Hugo Chavez is dying from cancer..

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/10/fidel_castro_supposedly_releas.php



ABC spoke to Dr. José Rafael Marquina, a Venezuelan native who has lived in Florida for the past 20 years. Marquina made a name for himself by publicly analyzing Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's recent bout with cancer. He claims to have sources with information of Chavez's health, and now of Castro's.

ABC reports that Chavez traveled to Cuba yesterday to get a health check-up and to visit Castro (no other media appears to confirm this).

Marquina claims that Castro "has suffered a massive embolism in the right brain artery," and is "dying." It's unclear where exactly Marquina is getting his information, though it's the latest in a string of rumors that Castro's health has seriously declined. The fact he did not publicly congratulate Chavez on his reelection last week further spurred speculation.

Castro hasn't so much as released a public word since June. So, today, state-run newspapers published a letter supposedly written by Castro in which he congratulated doctors graduating from a medical academy. Not everyone is buying that Castro actually wrote the letter. The retired dictator hasn't been seen in public since earlier this year when he greeted the Pope.

[bluestateguy]

7. I am not a Castro fan by any measure

He is a tyrant. But it is not our job to remove him. The Cuban people will have to do that themselves, if they should want to.

And the embargo is an outdated Cold War relic that should be repealed.

[KansDem]

29. "And the embargo is an outdated Cold War relic that should be repealed."

Agreed.

We lost over 58,000 Americans in Vietnam, lost the war, yet, we can now buy products make there in our big-box retailers.

I don't recall any American deaths in Cuba but we maintain this embargo?

Doesn't make sense...

[Blue_Tires]

96. I remeber in 1999(?) seeing all those hardline anti-Cuba congresscritters

spend hours on C-SPAN arguing why we need to have open trade with China...it was surreal...

[leftstreet]

9. The 'chains of communism?'

I haven't heard that term in years

[flamingdem]

17. ha ha It's so retro, and irrelevant, the Cubans are tremendous NATIONALISTS n/t

[DonRedwood]

20. I didn't say they weren't...but i did not meet a single person who liked castro

and they weren't afraid to say it.

[Scootaloo]

21. "And they weren't afraid to say it."

Funny thing, in nations that actually are run by oppressive dictatorships, the people are afraid to say it. In nations like the Capitalist paragons of Pinochet's Chile or the Argentine junta, criticism of the government got you a gut wound and a high dive into the ocean.

[CreekDog]

85. Yeah I noticed that too...in fact, the OP says they were getting arrested for saying it

[aquart]

22. They weren't afraid to say it?

Think about that.

[HiPointDem]

25. "They weren't afraid to say it," but their spirits are "broken" because castro has "sucked the life

out of them & the country" and "destroyed their will & spirit".

and everyone who talked to you was stopped by the police & arrested as well.

ok, whatever.

[arely staircase]

62. no kidding

and why did he keep talking to people after, i don't know, the first few times this happened?

probably because it didn't happen

[obamanut2012]

60. Wait -- you think Castro is an oppressive dictator

And yet people felt free enough to criticize him to an outsider?



How are your chains of capitalism feeling this morn?

[hack89]

119. They didn't feel free enough to start a political party and oppose him in an election. nt

[obamanut2012]

134. Which is a nice huge scarecrow

And has nothing to do with the OP's claim.

[hack89]

141. But it is perfectly true

I just wanted to throw it out there amidst all this rationalizing of one party authoritarian governments.

[0rganism]

156. Cuba has at least 10 political parties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Cuba

Enjoy those chains of capitalism much?

[hack89]

157. " No party is permitted to campaign or endorse candidates for election"

so don't give me that crap. The Communist Party hand picks who will be elected.

The Communist Party has a complete monopoly on power.

[0rganism]

160. "including the Communist Party"

Very convenient how you left that part out, eh? Nice cherry picking there.

But it's no surprise coming from you, I remember when you took a shit on the longshoremen's strike in Washington. True to character, all the way.

[hack89]

161. Because candidates are chosen not elected.

Candidates are selected by Candidacy Commissions .

Candidates for the National Assembly are chosen by Candidacy Commissions chaired by local trade union officials and composed of elected representatives of "mass organizations" representing workers, youth, women, students and farmers. The Candidacy Commissions produce slates of recommended candidates for each electoral district. The final list of candidates, one for each district, is drawn up by the National Candidacy Commission, taking into account criteria such as candidates’ popularity, merit, patriotism, ethical values and “revolutionary history.”

On edit: That is why the Communist Party does not need to campaign or endorse candidates. They have absolute control of the entire process.

[0rganism]

166. why not post the link to your source?

Seriously, when you quote something, it's just common decency to let people know where you got it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Cuba

There's a lot more to it than your on-edit statement might lead someone to believe.

[hack89]

175. There is nothing there that points at free and open elections

Show me the mechanism where one could run for president of Cuba. That's right - it is impossible.

I find it so funny how many here support one part authoritarian governments.

[hack89]

162. Are you refering to that intra-union fight

where I backed a different union than you did. Yes - I think you might be.

[0rganism]

167. yes, you "supported" the scab union

More to the point, you opposed the ILWU. Big surprise there.

[hack89]

174. It was not a scab union - it was merely the union you didn't support. nt

[leftstreet]

196. They were scabs. You're anti-union

It's no surprise you're supporting free marketz capitalism here

[hack89]

197. I support unions

Last edited Mon Oct 22, 2012, 08:29 AM - Edit history (1)

I support free market capitalism. They are not mutually exclusive

You are just looking for a way to derail the conversation.

Supporting one party authoritarian governments is certainly not pro-worker.

[magical thyme]

68. so much for freedom of speech...

oh, wait a minute. Never mind.

ps I had a right-wing Australian boss who visited Cuba; rented a car and drove all around, meeting with the people. He told wonderful stories about the people, and about driving around occasional chickens and cows in the streets. But he didn't come back with any horror stories, though.

[TBF]

45. Stick around - it's election time so all the normally quiet

moles are out and about enlightening us with their wisdom.

[Scootaloo]

88. Well, I DO feel enlightened...

Mainly because of the vanished brain cells...

[Comrade Grumpy]

10. Well, that was tacky. And maudlin.

I've spent time in Cuba, too. The people I met had living spirits. Some liked the government, some didn't, some could care less.

[Nye Bevan]

11. Well, they kept re-electing Castro for some reason.

So I guess most of them liked the government.

[hack89]

48. I remember watching all the Cuban presidential debates ... oh wait

that's right. Cuba is a one party state where opposing political views are not tolerated.

Every dictatorship has a constitution and elections.

[flamingdem]

14. Me too and what the OP lacks is an explanation for why the police do what they do

I think it takes more than 1 trip to Cuba to understand the culture and society.

It's very easy to be a naive gringo stomping around and yelling about human rights in a society you don't understand.
Cubans who engage in befriending tourists can really work it and charm the pants off of a foreigner. The police are heavy handed when they are from the countryside and they overreact but it's for a reason. The foreigner is at a great disadvantage and won't get the game until trip 2, 3, 4 ... some never get it and marry a hustler. The crackdowns that happened ten or so years ago were needed and prostitution is greatly controlled. Now Cubans have access to hotels and tourist areas, it's a healthier situation, but it was simply impossible not to control the situation when it first opened up.

Why don't people consider the history of Cuba when judging. How about the fact that the USA could give a fuck if Cubans suffer due to the embargo. Fidel wanted equality for his people. He will leave a tremendous legacy.

[crunch60]

26. +1

[Puregonzo1188]

70. Don't forget the legacy of US terrorism in Cuba. I mean that was what I first thought of

when he mentioned the police following him around.

[Scootaloo]

12. "May Cuba break free from the chains of communism"

Said by someone dwelling in the "first world" nation with the highest rates of infant mortality, homelessness, lowest life expectancy, worst educational system, and most corrupt economic system, that's pretty fucking laughable.

Tell me another one, Papa McCarthy!

[leftstreet]

16. +1 Don't forget Cuba's national healthcare. Where's ours?

Single payer non-profit healthcare in Cuba, but not in the US

The 'chains of Capitalism' is more like it

[KansDem]

38. "Comminism"

And the misspelling was intentional

[hifiguy]

65. Amen to that.

How many Cubans die because they are unable to afford medical attention? Cuba is no paradise - what place is - but it's far from hell on earth.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

13. lift the embargo and Cubans will do just fine

all the phony concern about 'freedom' from the right gets thrown out the window when they go courting China and the Saudis.

Castro looks like a choir boy next to those folks.

The only reason the U.S. policy is so harsh on Cuba is because the Cubans won't let the mafia and the old foreign interests run the place and suck it dry like they did under the dictator Batista.

China lets U.S. companies exploit their people, so, suddenly human rights abuses like Tibet and Tiananmen Square are no longer a concern.

Funny how that works.

Maybe it's time to quit letting the rightwing Batista holdovers in Miami set U.S. policy, and we take steps to benefit the people of both nations.

[flamingdem]

15. I agree. When attacking Cuba one is basically siding with the worst right wing and exploitative

groups around including the charming right wing congressmen from Miami who would do all they can to undermine our freedoms here in their obsessive hate of Fidel.

[malaise]

31. +1,000

FIdel Castro has done more to uplift his own people than any of the US backed dictators and generals of this hemisphere.

[obamanut2012]

61. 100% this

[crunch60]

27. Exactly right! nt

[Marr]

95. And that's why it won't be lifted.

People in Haiti, Jamaica... and lots of other places might start asking why they don't have the things Cubans have.

[vaberella]

111. Exactly. That has always been the biggest problem. Not Castro. n/t

[Enrique]

18. his death would be about as relevant as these cliches

not very.

[flamingdem]

19. Very wrong! His death will be a huge symbolic moment for Latin America

Not so much outside of that though as his cache is reduced lately along with his visibility.

Name another figure as important in the history of Latin America? Bolivar?

In terms of the USA he is hugely important as well. Name another country that stood up to US domination in this hemisphere?

Well we'll see what happens but there is still a leftward tilt in Latin America and a lot of respect for Cuba and Fidel's legacy.

[graham4anything]

28. +1

hope this rumor is not true.

What is amazing is people speaking about things that are not true and the same people here and there that don't like the rightwing press, somehow love the rightwing press about Mr. Castro.

I think if one loves Jeb and George Bush & Marco Rubio, one hates Castro

and the same people still think the USSR is alive and well too



I do like that slowly the embargo is going and travel is allowed.I for one would love to legally be able to visit and spend my tourist money there.

It is OUR embargo from prior decades that is enslaving the people who live there, not Mr. Castro.
(one of the things I hope will change after our President no longer needs to run again when he wins in a few weeks).

[aquart]

23. Let us try to recall how happy we were when Batista ran Cuba.

Us, our mobs, our dealers. We loved that place. All those nice Cuban servants.

[KansDem]

33. ^^^ Recommended!!!

We seem to have forgotten what pre-Castro Cuba was like.

Batista established lasting relationships with organized crime, notably with American mobsters Meyer Lansky and Lucky Luciano, and under his rule Havana became known as "the Latin Las Vegas."[32] Batista and Lansky formed a friendship and business relationship that flourished for a decade. During a stay at the Waldorf-Astoria in New York in the late 1940s, it was mutually agreed that, in return for kickbacks, Batista would give Lansky and the Mafia control of Havana's racetracks and casinos.[33]

After World War II, American mobster Lucky Luciano was paroled from prison on the condition that he permanently return to Sicily. Luciano secretly moved to Cuba, where he worked to resume control over American Mafia operations. Luciano also ran a number of casinos in Cuba with the sanction of Batista, though the American government eventually succeeded in pressuring the Batista regime to deport him.[34]

Batista encouraged large-scale gambling in Havana. In 1955, he announced that Cuba would grant a gaming license to anyone who invested US$1 million in a hotel or $200,000 in a new nightclub—and that the government would provide matching public funds for construction, a 10-year tax exemption, and waive duties on imported equipment and furnishings for new hotels. Each casino would pay the government $250,000 for the license, plus a percentage of the profits. The policy omitted background checks, as required for casino operations in the United States, which opened the door for casino investors with illegally obtained funds. Cuban contractors with the right connections made windfalls by importing, duty-free, more materials than needed for new hotels and selling the surplus to others. It was rumored that, besides the $250,000 to obtain a license, an additional "under the table" fee was sometimes required.[35]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#Relationship_with_organized_crime

[aquart]

100. TY! For giving the details I couldn't.

There's total amnesia in the media for those glad (for the US) times.

[obamanut2012]

103. Godfather II actually gives a good background on this

[hack89]

105. So they traded one authoritarian leader for another

only kings or dictators rule for 60 years and I don't see a crown on Castro's head.

[aquart]

109. Yes, dear. That's what they did.

Please list their other choices.

[hack89]

115. Free and open multi-party elections after a post revolution transition period.

give the Cuban people actual choices.

I am constantly astounded how many here support and rationalize LW authoritarian leaders while condeming RW authoritarians. The hypocrisy is mind bending.

[leftstreet]

138. We have that. Yet no national healthcare

I am constantly astounded by how many here equate democracy with capitalism

[hack89]

139. That's your measure of freedom?

shall we list all the things Cubans do not have?

[leftstreet]

148. You're the one trying to talk about 'freedom'

As if it actually means something or is even relevant here

[hack89]

151. Watching DUrs rationalize single party authoritarian government is so funny.

Dictators are bad - except when they are good.

[Hippo_Tron]

198. We're an enigma, the rest of the wetern democracies have universal health care

[brooklynite]

193. "The Enemy of my Enemy" is sometimes my Enemy...

[vaberella]

112. You are a person who has absolutely no inclination as to the history of Cuba.

Particularly under Batista to even think that Batista and Castro are comparable. It's like comparing Hitler and Lincoln.

[hack89]

116. Batista ruled for seven years, Castro for 60.

Castro did more and lasting damage to Cuba than Batista did - he squandered the opportunity to make Cuba free and prosperous. He choose a different path.

[vaberella]

125. And during Batista's time --- he killed 20,000 Cubans.

The country was overrun by US and foreign casinos. Yes, Castro did worse by turning those casino's into schools. Batista was allowing raping and killing of Black Cubans---Castro stopped that and it was one of the things that enraged him into revolting against Batista. Yes...Castro was an evil by wanting to stop the genocide of all his people. What lasting damage did Castro do? What lasting "damage" that he did that was not influenced by US foreign policy laws?! Tell me. Actually he did not squandered it. He wanted to protect it. Why am I debating this shit with you? When it's obvious you know nothing about the situation.

What different path did Castro do? Because he stopped US privatizing Cuban electricity?! Really? Because he stopped US privatizing water in Cuba? Really? You've got to be kidding me. To me, you sound like you would shit on Lincoln.

[hack89]

127. So it was impossible for Castro to implement multiparty democracy

at any time in the past 60 years? Is that what you are saying? Or are you saying that one party authoritarian rule is ok?

Condemning Castro is not supporting Batista.

[amborin]

24. Communists were immensely helpful in the industrial union movement in the U.S.

We wouldn't have the UAW, IE, etc. if it hadn't been for their leadership and willingness to challenge capitalist domination.


That aside, one of the many unforgiveable things about Castro was how he had one of Cuba's top generals executed on trumped up charges. The general had had many successes in Angola, and returned to Cuba a war hero. This was simply too threatening to Castro.

[KansDem]

30. I thought travel to Cuba was "illegal" for Americans?

Many DUer's have remarked that they've been to Cuba. I would like to go sometime but thought it was off limits. What's the procedure for traveling there?

Oh, and that Scott DesJarlais is one sleazy dude!

[B Calm]

34. I think most go to Canada, then fly down. I been there two times,

but that was in the US Navy and I never got to leave Gitmo Navy base.

[KansDem]

37. Thanks for the info

I have a friend who lives in Switzerland. He comes through my "neck of the woods" every once in a while and will bring me a box of Cuban cigars that he's purchased in a Swiss tobacco shop.

I like smoking them, but it's such a convoluted way of getting them.

[B Calm]

39. You can buy Cuban cigars in Canada.

I seen them for sale up there, but they're pricey.

[KansDem]

40. My sister lives in Coeur d'Alene

Northern Idaho.

The next time I visit her I might take a side trip up north to purchase a few.

Awful long way to go to smoke a Havana!

[Comrade Grumpy]

78. Yeah, if you can afford them.

[Kolesar]

80. Americans travel to Cuba through the Bahamas

Or so I have heard. I'm more of a "hiking in the mountains" kind of vacationer.

[B Calm]

32. The thing holding Cuba is our embargo!

[Starry Messenger]

35. Running out of corn nut stories, Snoutport?

The Soviet Union dissolved in 1992. So if you were really there, you were about ten years old. Get help.

[TBF]

46. ....

[Starry Messenger]

57. Good morning, TBF!

[obamanut2012]

58. That is a really good point

[REP]

89. That's the name I was trying to remember!

I just kept thinking "sack lunches."

[obamanut2012]

92. Very interesting thread

To me.

[Starry Messenger]

97. And fruit leather! nt.

[Skidmore]

36. Ah, jeez. The Cuban people need to live in a cesspool of predatory capitalism like we do because

we're #1 and truly exceptional and our poop doesn't stink. Rah! Rah!

[H2O Man]

41. And he has a beard.

[KoKo]

182. ... and "dark eyes" too! n/t

[H2O Man]

185. The CIA made

a noble attempt to make Castro's beard fall out, which would have brought peace, harmony, properity, and the Christian-Capitalism system to Cuba. They might have had Pat Boone, but instead fell under the influence of the Beatles (beards, again, by no coincidence).

Had the CIA have had binders of females-of-the-opposite-sex, they could have applied eye-shadow and perhaps hairy high-lights to Infide Castro. Much better than having a world leader who had eyes like Yoko.

[KoKo]

190. That's priceless...

...

[quinnox]

42. it must be terrible for the people to have access to low cost health care

Compared to our wonderful for profit health care system. Ah, the blessings of capitalism.

[Nye Bevan]

72. That explains why so many Americans try to ride to Cuba on inner tubes (nt)

[quinnox]

73. irrelevent n/t

[Welcome_hubby]

43. Fidel didn't let USA rape Cuba

Cuba was like a USA affiliate. Cubans were not having it. Other Latin-American president like Somoza bent over and took it. Not him. Kudos.

[hack89]

49. No - he turned it into the Soviet Union's lap dog instead. nt

[obamanut2012]

63. That ONLY happened because of the US's cold shoulder

Cuba could have and should have been an ally of the US.

[hack89]

66. Perhaps.

In any case, his death is necessary for significant change in the relationship. I think both sides are inhibited from big changes while he is still alive. Not wishing for his death mind you - but when it comes hopefully it will herald positive changes for Cuba.

[Kindly Refrain]

74. I'm just going to come right out and ask.

Are you a rightwinger? I've read quite a few of your posts.

[quinnox]

75. I think that one is a gungeoneer

which is probably a sufficient answer.

[hack89]

163. Considering 40% of Democrats own guns

I think your bias is showing.

Or are you a small tent Democrat?

[hack89]

77. No - a die in the wool Democrat from a long line of blue collar Democrats

I have never voted for a Repuke in my life. I am active in my local party organization and election campaigns.

I support abortion rights, marriage equality, and single payer health care.

I am simply more moderate than you would like. I also suspect my support for gun rights shades your opinion of me.

[Paladin]

84. So In Other Words.....

...you think I ought to be forbidden from buying Cuban-made Romeo y Julieta cigars, because Castro is such a bad guy----but you think it's your constitutional right to acquire AK-47 rifles built in Russia, China, East Berlin, or Cambodia? Is that the sort of anti-communism you're preaching, here?

[hack89]

87. I oppose any sanctions on Cuba

I think that there should be unfettered trade and travel between the two countries. That is how Cuba will change for the better.

I am not anti-Communist. I oppose any and all authoritarian leaders, whether on the left or the right.

[CreekDog]

91. but it's only guns and sometimes taxes that you get really animated about

you and I have both been here a long time.

most of us here truly and vocally worried when health care was at stake.

we were aghast when they tried to privatize social security.

we went crazy when they tried to stop the expansion of s-chip which would cover millions of children with health care.

the issue we have with gungeoners are the ones, and there are many, that express little emotion about any issue other than guns and government spending.

[hack89]

94. But guns are not a purely RW issue so I don't see your point

40% of Democrats say they own guns. I am one of them.


On edit: what bought me to DU initially was the 9/11 Forum on DU2. I had a blast arguing with Truthers - the threads were technical, passionate and dynamic. A great opportunity hone my logic and writing skills. The point is I am not a "me too" kind of poster - if I see a thread that I agree with I usually nod my head and move on. I join in when I think I have something factual to add or if I disagree with the facts and logic being presented. I particular dislike threads motivated by emotion and not much more - which usually puts me in the contrarian position when I challenge people on issues like gun control or basic economics. I am here for discussion - not validation.

[hack89]

118. So Casto would have rejected single party rule with some American love and money?

Or are you saying he would have merely been another American supported authoritarian? And that is OK with you?

[obamanut2012]

136. Another scarecrow

One that looks oddly like the Family of Saud, Putin, and the Chinese government.

[hack89]

140. You are the one rationalizing authoritarian one party rule

I am just trying to figure out what was necessary for Cuba to avoid it. You are implying that the US is partially to blame.

[vaberella]

113. No. America did that---no idea of the history then don't talk about it. n/t

[hack89]

117. So America force Cuba to send it's armies to fight in Africa?

Castro would have rejected Marxism and support for wars of liberation given some American love? Really?

And here I was thinking that Castro was motivated by principles when it was pure circumstance after all. America could have bought him off and made Cuba a western style democracy.

[CBGLuthier]

44. and of course the US policy of burying Cuba has nothing to do with anything

It was all Castro's fault. How sad lame and reminiscent of the fucking 60's cold war jingoism.

[OldDem2012]

47. Hmmm. I seem to recall the Cuban people were just as bad off before Castro...

Remember Fulgencio Batista from Cuban history? You know, the guy that overthrew the previous Cuban government in 1933 and eventually became a REALLY bad dictator? You do understand that the Cubans who fled to the US following Castro's takeover in 1959 were Batista supporters?

What do you know about the support that was given to Castro by the CIA to help him overthrow the Batista dictatorship? A guy by the name of Frank Sturgis was involved in providing that help....remember him from the Watergate break-in?

What do you know about Castro asking for monetary support and other supplies from the Eisenhower Administration in 1959 and was turned down? Did you know that Castro then turned to the Soviet Union for help which they gladly supplied? Did you know that Eisenhower ordered then CIA Director Allen Dulles to train Cuban exiles for a covert invasion of Cuba in March 1960? Did you know Nixon was heavily involved in the planning for what later became the Bay of Pigs fiasco under JFK?

And when all of the US programs failed to overthrow and/or kill Castro, we slapped them with major sanctions that resulted in denying the Cuban people the things they needed for surviving day-to-day. Most of those sanctions are still in place. So, tell me again who is to blame for the economic condition of Cuba. Tell me why Cubans might be suspicious of American travelers in their country.

Oh, by the way, you never saw the old Soviet Union following the Russian Revolution in 1917. They were in far worse economic straits at that point in time than the Cubans after Castro took over in 1959. What you saw in Russia in the 1990s was a direct result of the failed war in Afghanistan , the complete collapse of the old Soviet financial system, and the dissolution of the old Soviet Union. You were followed by Russian police, but it would have been far worse if the old Soviet Union had still existed.

[Iggo]

50. Does that mean we can lift the stupid fucking embargo?

[TransitJohn]

51. LOL!

People who rail about communism live in the past.

[GliderGuider]

52. The heirs of Fulgencio Batista thank you for your support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista

Back in power, Batista suspended the 1940 Constitution and revoked most political liberties, including the right to strike. He then aligned with the wealthiest landowners who owned the largest sugar plantations, and presided over a stagnating economy that widened the gap between rich and poor Cubans. Batista's increasingly corrupt and repressive regime then began to systematically profit from the exploitation of Cuba's commercial interests, by negotiating lucrative relationships with the American mafia, who controlled the drug, gambling, and prostitution businesses in Havana, and with large multinational American corporations that had invested considerable amounts of money in Cuba. To quell the growing discontent amongst the populace—which was subsequently displayed through frequent student riots and demonstrations—Batista established tighter censorship of the media, while also utilizing his anti-Communist secret police to carry out wide-scale violence, torture and public executions; ultimately killing anywhere from 1,000 to 20,000 people.

Mayer Lansky and the boys send their greetings as well.

[jsr]

53. I bet nobody died in Cuba because they couldn't afford to see a doctor about a dental abscess.

[Zen Democrat]

54. Castro will die in old age. I don't get the celebrating. He kinda won.

And he's not been in charge for several years -- Raul Castro is.

[quinnox]

55. Also, the 1960s called and said they want

Their commie propaganda back.

[Paladin]

56. Our Stupid Blockade Has Kept Castro In Power For Decades.

Castro couldn't have asked for better help than what our backward policies provided.

[obamanut2012]

59. I find your OP header extrememly inappropriate

And your OP body doesn't match the reality of several people I know who have spent considerable time in Cuba. It also doesn't match the facts. I also have family members who worked in pre-Castro Cuba, and one who never voted for a liberal in his life said he would have embraced Castro, too, because non-Batista Elite Cubans were slaves (often literally) of the US Mob, the Cuban Elite, and US corporations.

I also doubt you spent any time driving in the Soviet Union, since I believe you are only in your 30's or s, right? And, there is no such monolithic place as the "former Soviet Union." Pshaw.

I do give you a point for not mentioning Elian Gonzales, but took it away since you didn't mention how many Batista families have turned parts of Florida into a Fascist state

[GObamaGO]

64. Last I checked the Cold War was over

And what others have said about pre-Castro Cuba...(mobsters and exploitation for US gain).

[Zoeisright]

67. Gee. Stay classy.

And buh bye.

[CorBlimeyGuvnor]

69. Thread title in extremely poor taste...n/t

[Prometheus Bound]

99. I believe it's the meanest title I've ever seen on DU.

[vaberella]

114. I agree. n/t

[CreekDog]

71. you were in the USSR before the mid-80s?

because by then there was Glasnost and that meant far more freedom of expression than before --in fact, this freedom is one of the things that led up to the dissolution of the Soviet Union by 1991, that is the freedom to openly oppose the government, vote against it, etc.

How could you have been there in the 90s? --history doesn't support your picture of the USSR in the 90's, in fact it was dissolved in 1991...I'll never forget that, I was in San Diego with my family on vacation and we saw it on TV, in a moment, Gorbachev was no longer in power or effectively had no control.

[Arugula Latte]

76. May Cuba break free from the stranglehold of the United States.

[joeybee12]

79. Yup...+1

[Hell Hath No Fury]

81. Paging Mika --

DUer Mika has spent a helluva lot more time there than you over many years. Her experience of Cuba was different. People in Cuba have it worse than some, but better than many others, including a whole lot of Americans.

Fidel gave us the chance to work with him back in the day, we said "no". Our embargo continues to be one of the more stupid foreign policy decisions our country has ever made.

[LeftyMom]

83. Teachers can afford month-long foreign vacations now?

I need to change careers.

[Kolesar]

86. The Mafia ruined Youngstown

I saw discos burned when they didn't pay protection. A policeman was killed and no killer was ever discovered. My friend the judge was shot. The turned recreational drugs into a racket. The mills had a numbers racket. You could get a traffic ticket fixed if you knew the right guy. The sheriff took bribes from the mafia and then the mafia bought the jury to clear him.

People deserve better.

[CreekDog]

90. I love your stories, you really seem to bounce around the world

[Dr Fate]

98. How many products made in Red China have you bought this week?

This month? This year? Were you proudly wearing your Chinese commie made gear on your visit to cuba?

Take any photos with a Red-Chinese made camera or I-phone, perhaps?

Just saying. I've never met a man who cried "evil commies!!!!" who was not dressed from head to toe in the latest Chinese communist made fashions.

Maybe you will be the 1st to break the streak?

[KoKo]

181. That's an excellent insight. And, thanks for posting it.

We Americans are ALL supporting the Chinese these days. As long as they supply Walmart on up to our most exclusive 1%'er stores ....we are happy dealing with the "former" RED CHINESE...but CUBA....OMG...DAMNED DICTATOR! LOL's the hypocrites we are.

[2ndAmForComputers]

101. The 50's called, they want their overblown, fearmongering rhetoric back.

[flamingdem]

104. best comment!

[upi402]

107. There is always a helluva storm in that little teapot

whew, makes ya wonder where all the anger comes from. hhmmmm

[LiberalFighter]

102. Castro's status is immaterial. He is not a factor that matters in politics.

[hack89]

106. I disagree

He is such a huge symbol that no Cuban leader would propose undoing Castro's system while he is still alive. The Cuban people have no opportunity for meaningful democratic change until he is dead.

[craigmatic]

108. I like Fidel. Sure his economics might not be that good but he saved Cuba from US imperialism.

He kicked the mob and United Fruit out and gave the people free k-college education and universal healthcare which we don't have here. People forget that Batista was just as bad on civil rights in Cuba if not worse raping and torturing people. He also helped fight apartide South Africa and help to export revolution around the world and generally stood against American puppet states. The reality is that most of the suffering in Cuba is the result of the embargo and not Castro's policies. If that embargo was lifted life would get better for the average Cuban. It's not like Fidel wakes up everyday and thinks how can I make the people suffer more. There's alot more going on there than what is seen by the average tourist.

[vaberella]

110. Yes, because Batista's mass murders, genocide of Blacks and the Wests rape and pillage of Cuba...

was okay. Castro did not cause any of those things in Cuba---they were caused by embargoes forced onto Cuba why the US government when Castro stated he would not allow privatized companies and casinos to run amok. Imagine would Cuba would be if US agreed to Castro's position and did not thrust an extremely rigid embargo on the nation for the last 50+ years.

[hack89]

120. That justifies 60 years of one man rule? Really? nt

[vaberella]

122. Oh so all of those things are okay?! By your estimation, then?!

Because the real evil is one man ruling? If Castro never came into power---Black Cubans would have ONLY one job...clearing the cane fields. They would never have jobs, the women would have to deal with continous rape. You think that would go away? It had no chance of going away. Cuba wouldn't have the highest rate of extremely qualified doctors. Do you know if you speak Spanish and you are a minority you can go to Cuba and get free education to becoming a medical doctor.

What is the problem with one man ruling if he is not advocating mass murder and abuse? A monarchy is not really a problem until the monarch is abusing it's citizenry. Even in "democratic" nations we see plenty of that. America is not as bad as Haiti...but let's just say if Josh Romney's hands in voting machines means anything or the Koch Brother's power---money in democracy has enough issues.

Again...you know nothing, absolutely nothing about the history of the nation except what you've been fed by the media.

[hack89]

124. So dictators who don't indulge in mass murder are ok with you? Wow!!

multi-party democracy is the ideal for one simple reason - it allows the people control over their lives and their countries.

[hack89]

126. So 60 years of GW Bush would be ok as long as he didn't advocate mass murder? ok. nt

[JCMach1]

121. Cuba was a poor Carribean nation before Castro and will be after...

His legacy, however, is a complex one

[slackmaster]

123. I cannot share with your enthusiasm about a human suffering, even if he doesn't feel anything

I hope the people of Cuba achieve a better life in this generation.

[leveymg]

128. I suppose the OP would rather Cuba was still run by Batista and Meyer Lansky?

I sometimes wonder why such Right-wingers continue to haunt this place.

[hack89]

130. No third option?

perhaps the OP wanted the people of Cuba to enjoy free multi-party elections with a free press. Not liking Castro does not imply support for Batista. There is plenty of room to condemn both.

[leveymg]

131. Without Castro, Cuba would probably be similar to the Dominican Republic. Press not free there,

either. The threat to freedoms in the DR, like much of the market economies of Latin America, is from corrupt officials and the real bosses, drug cartels and organized crime, just like Batista's days. Take your pick. http://en.rsf.org/report-dominican-republic,190.html

Physical attacks against the media declined a little in 2009 but they are still frequent. Although a major tourism destination, the Dominican Republic continues to be prey to persistent corruption while its geographical location means it is much used as a drug-trafficking way station. It is dangerous for news media to look too closely at these issues, especially as the reprisals are often carried out by municipal officials or police officers.

The especially menacing threat to journalists from the drug cartels can come from just about anywhere. Manuel Vega, a reporter and producer for the privately-owned Canal 10-Varo Visión TV station and radio 95.5 FM in Hato Mayor province, received “warnings” from two imprisoned drug traffickers at the start of 2009.

Freedom of expression continues to be fragile. The privately-owned TV station Canal 53 Cibao TV Club was controversially closed on the orders of the Dominican Telecommunications Institute (Indotel) on 25 March 2010, shortly after presenter Ernesto Fadul criticised President Leonel Fernández and other government officials. The grounds given were “illegal broadcasting.” Closure is the worst possible way to punish a TV station for comments that could be considered defamatory or for the illegal use of frequencies.

[hack89]

132. So Latin America requires strongmen to prosper? True democracy is a hindrance to be avoided?

interesting perspective.

Does that only apply to LW strongmen or are RW strongmen Ok as well?

[leveymg]

133. Caudillos aren't my preferred form of governance - true democracy may exist in Iceland

or Barbados, or something close to it on a few other small island states. The DR isn't really a True Democracy, nor is the US or any state where we have intervened to bring our preferred form of corporate multinational rule. Certainly not Libya. Certainly not Iraq, or any of the other recent poster children for "freedom and democracy."

Perhaps, after several decades following our departure and that of our appointed strongmen, as in Chile, there is some improvement.

Historically, the U.S. has scored pretty low in bringing "true democracy" in this and every other hemisphere we've touched.

3 FULGENCIO BATISTA
President of Cuba

Cuban Army Sergeant Fulgencio Batiste, first seized power in a 1932 coup. He was FDR's handpicked dictator to counteract leftists who had overthrown strongman Gerardo Machado, "the Butcher". Batista ruled for several years, then left for Miami, returning in 1952 just in time for another coup, against elected president Carlos Prio Socorras. His new regime was recognized in a flash by President Eisenhower.
Under Batista, U.S. interests flourished and little was said about democracy. With the loyal support of Batista, Mafioso boss Meyer Lansky developed Havana into an international drug port. Cabinet offices were bought and sold and military officials made huge sums on smuggling and vice rackets. Havana became a fashionable hot spot where America's rich and famous clinked cocktails with mobsters.
As the gap between the rich and poor grew wider, the poor grew impatient. In 1953, Fidel Castro led an armed group of rebels in a failed uprising on the Moncada army barracks. Fidel temporarily fled the country and Batista struck back with a vengeance. Freedom of speech was curtailed and "subversive" teachers, lawyers and public officials were fired from their jobs. Death squads tortured and killed thousands of "communists." Batista was assisted in his crackdown by Lansky and other members of organized crime who believed Castro would jeopardize their gambling and drug trade. Despite this, Batista remained a friend to Eisenhower and the U.S. until he was finally overthrown by Castro in 1959.

4 - Rafael Leonidas Trujillo

4 RAFAEL LEONIDAS TRUJILLO
President of the Dominican Republic
The U.S. occupied the Dominican Republic in 1916 and created the National Guardto put Rafael Leonidas "The Chief" Trujillo into power. The fact that Trujillo was court-martialed for kidnapping and rape in 1920 did not impede his rise to power or taint his relationship with the U.S. As dictator of the Dominican Republic for 30 years, Trujillo had a penchant for self-adulation, naming the country's capital "Ciudad Trujillo" and likening himself to Jesus Christ. He also put his personal stamp on everything. On village water pumps: "Trujillo alone gives us water to drink." On a home for the aged: "Trujillo is the only one who gives us shelter."
Trujillo won the 1930 presidential election with more votes than there were registered voters, but as long as he was anti-communist, Washington was happy, so he invoked anti-communism to justify mass deportations, torture and summary execution. Workers who asked for wage increases were labelled "communists" and shot on the spot, as were farmers who tried to stop Trujillo from confiscating their land. He eventually controlled over 80% of the country's sugar plantations, using slave labor provided by neighboring Haiti to keep profits high, but in 1937 he decided to blame depressed sugar prices on the Haitian workers and massacred 20,000 of them. Trujillo was finally assassinated by the CIA in 1961, after he attempted to have President Romulo Betancourt of Venezuela murdered because of his criticism of Trujillo's brutal regime. It was only then that the Marine Corps made public the fact that our "ally" Trujillo was a convicted rapist!

[hack89]

142. There has been no US imposed strong man in Cuba for 60 years

it would appear that the absence of US influence does not lead to democracy or freedom. Oh well - perhaps there will be a Havana Spring to clear the ground and start over.

[leveymg]

143. Exactly.

I'm sure that when Fidel finally passes, the pace of change will pick up. Change may or may not be for the better, nevertheless. Depends upon who you talk to in Cuba or Little Havana.

[hack89]

146. Do you think the Cuban people should be given a real say in what change is made?

should the Cuban Communist Party renounce it's monopoly on political power and invite the formation of other political parties with no restrictions?

[leveymg]

149. Who's going to give it to them?

Certainly not us. That's up to them.

[hack89]

150. Up to the authoritarian government to give? Or for the people to take?

there is no role for us. I suspect another revolution is the only true answer.

[leveymg]

153. Maybe the Evil Spock will play Che to the revolution that Fidel made?

[hack89]

155. The world does not need another Che. nt

[leveymg]

158. Don't worry. He got turned into a commodity a long time ago.

[KoKo]

170. Ohhhh... The world will get used to many MORE Che's as we go forward with Wall Street Bankers. n/t

[hack89]

177. Considering his unbroken string of failure

following the revolution, that could be seen as good or bad.

[joshcryer]

165. They will do it. Two out of three of the demands of the Varela Project have been met.

They have returned to privatization and they are about to release the travel restrictions.

All that's left now is the ability to campaign freely and end the community party monopoly.

[joshcryer]

164. I dispute that. Cuba wasn't occupied like DR.

Many forget that Batista was supported by the communists in Cuba and duly elected. The problem was that he couldn't get reelected and formed a coup to stay in power.

Ironically this is why the Cuban electoral process is so quaint. It allows those in power to remain in power indefinitely so that they don't have to have coups. They simply just retain power because the people by law are not allowed to have much ability to choose anyone else.

Had they simply followed the 1940 constitution Cuba would be highly prosperous right now, but it required Batistas ouster since after the coup his hard hand was very Pinochet-esque.

Cuba may have become the Las Vegas of the Americas by now.

[KoKo]

168. leveymg....Excellent Point! n/t

[obamanut2012]

137. I am wondering why the OP never revisited this thread

Although he appears to have posted in other threads since he started this OP.

I really dislike drive by OPs.

[CreekDog]

144. Good question. In fact, there are tons of good questions in this thread.

maybe that's the reason!

[Starry Messenger]

152. Maybe he and Tom Clancy are having a reunion.

I must say, Fidel looks pretty good for a guy in a neurovegetative state. Perhaps that phrase actually means "abnormally perky looking senior citizen": http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1594594

[KoKo]

169. Might be too close to McCarthy Era to want to engage in discussion.

[Starry Messenger]

172. Did you even read the OP?

Accusing the rest of us of anti-socialist witch hunts in a thread that wishes *death* on a socialist leader is a level of irony that plunges to new depths. Congratulations. Might want to adjust your aim on the McCarthy ray there, KoKo.

And as a Communist? I find your repeated misuse of that term on DU really offensive. I have comrades that actually had their lives destroyed by that shit. Being hectored on a message board doesn't even rise to hangnail levels of fuss. Please.

[obamanut2012]

176. +1

And, I'm not a Communist, I just actually understand the history of Cuba, and what the OP did.

[KoKo]

187. Links please for my "repeated misuse of that term" here on DU....

I think you have me confused with someone else.

[Starry Messenger]

194. This is just from two hours ago:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=156705

I saw you do it in Meta today and again in here. No, I'm not confused.

[brooklynite]

145. I lived in a dictatorship for five years...

Whatever approach they take to economics and social policy, I'm not going to shed a tear for a dictator's demise.

[leveymg]

147. Texas in the 90s?

[KoKo]

171. Really? What in your opinion is definition of "Dictator?" What definition do you use to judge?

Would love to hear what you think about this.

[brooklynite]

173. A dictator chooses to rule without any regard for democratic process...

...in my case I was in the Philippines, when Ferdinand Marcos declared Martial Law, suspended the Constitution, dissolved the legislature, imposed Government censorship on all forms of media, and ruled by decree for the 25 years.

[KoKo]

178. Well we've seen a taste of that with BUSH II...but it's been a progression that's gone on

here in subtle "step-by-steps" for awhile now.

If you only think this stuff could happen under Marcos...well...I think you've read enough history that you know that Marcos was not unique in world history.

[brooklynite]

184. NO - WE - HAVE - NOT

The last time I checked, we took control of the House and Senate during Bush II's second term. We also blocked his plan to privatize Social Security.

Whatever you think about Bush's transgressions, he was NOT a Dictator (at least not to anyone who's experienced one).

[LeftyMom]

179. Wait, haven't you posted about being a 1%er before?

Why the everloving heck should any of the rest of us listen to your approach to economics?

[brooklynite]

180. So, because I'm financially well off...

...it's okay to support someone who denies political rights to others?

I'd be delighted to have you explain the linkage.

[LeftyMom]

186. Since the offense appears to be denying political domination to you and yours, and actually giving a

voice to everybody else? Your motives are suspect.

[brooklynite]

189. You DO know your Filipino history, don't you?

The Marcos dictatorship was a crony capitalist system where the wealthy did very well, and was strongly supported by the Nixon and Reagan Administrations. But don't that get in the way of your biases.

[JanMichael]

154. Oh, Bullshit. The Candadian and European tourists there

never reported crap like this. I have heard this silly assed crap before; I doubt you were even there.

[WinkyDink]

159. Gee, I guess our embargo had nothing to do with Cuba's economic condition.

[marmar]

183. "May Cuba break free from the chains of communism."

So we can put them in the chains of contemporary corporate capitalism.

[KoKo]

188. Right ON! Exactly....!

Seems some folks on this thread don't understand the difference in what Castro has done and their ideology that can't get over it. He doesn't fit in "the box" they want to put him in.

[hack89]

191. Why couldn't it be done with free and open elections?

and a free press? And the right to travel?

Social Democracy works just fine in some European countries.

[KoKo]

192. Have you looked at USA in the past 12 years?

[hack89]

195. Yes - a man of color won a free and open election

upsetting the status quo and giving hope to billions around the world.

That's what I saw. What about you?