Democrats need to punish Manchin and Sinema.

[Cattledog]

Strip them of all committee assignments.

[Fullduplexxx]

1. Need more dems before you start pushing the delicate balance around

[Merlot]

2. That won't solve anything.

Plus, it sounds like something republicans would do.

[BlueTsunami2018]

6. If the carrot doesn't work, the stick is the next best move.

We can take a few leaves out of their book. There’s a reason they’re successful and it’s not because they play nice with anyone. They have a minority voice in this country but still rule everything. Being like them isn’t necessarily a bad thing as long as the strong arming is to get people to do the right thing.

The other option is to do nothing, hold no one accountable and still be under right wing rule. We have to do something.

[ChazII]

23. +1 n/t

[FloridaBlues]

29. We could have solved this in 2020 if more people voted for state races

We didn’t and republicans have the majority of state legislatures.

[StarfishSaver]

45. Do you think leadership should punish a Senator who opposes something you also oppose?

[BlueTsunami2018]

51. I think you're either a Democrat or you're not.

This isn’t some petty fight over whether to raise taxes by 2% or 5%. The very essence of the country is at stake. If we don’t pass the voting rights act the country is over, plain and simple. And these people are willing to let us go over to the fascists without doing a goddamned thing to stop it. The fate of the country is in their hands and they’re willing to sell it all out for some Koch money? Or to make sure their kids can gouge people who need help?

I’m sorry but there is no defense for what they’re doing. I don’t know that there is a policy the Democratic Party has in their platform that I would oppose strong enough to punish a sitting member over but you’re damn right I support punishing those who defy the party on such an essential policy. Democracy is not a political football.

[StarfishSaver]

53. That's not how the Senate works, fortunately

Members aren't punished for not being "good" Democrats. Thank God.

[BlueTsunami2018]

57. Maybe you're right.

I’m just so damn frustrated with the inability of these people to see what’s at stake. And it just makes you wonder if it is indeed inability or purposeful. The other side is all in for an American version of a damn near theocratic oligarchy. There is zero chance of them ever going for fair elections, they’ll never survive as constituted and they know it. They’ll have to change. How can we ever take seriously this notion that these Senators are totally in favor of the legislation but cannot in good conscience vote for it without some votes from the party sworn to kill everything the bills embody? It’s a ludicrous position.

I understand the value those two particular senators bring in so many other ways. On other legislation, federal judges and positions that require Senate approval, we need them and they’re reliable.

Am I being over the top about all this? Are we really in that kind of danger? Is democracy itself really at stake? It sure seems that way. I’m no extremist and I consider myself fairly level headed but it feels like it’s panic time on those fronts. Hell, it’s been panic time for decades from my vantage.

What do we do?

[StarfishSaver]

59. I don't think your frustration is over the top, but your proposed solution is unreasonable

I, too, am frustrated. But much of my frustration is based on the fact that this was all predictable and predicted. Many people - especially African Americans and other minorities - warned our fellow Democrats about all of this years ago but too many didn't care and ignored us because they didn't think the problem would affect THEM. And now that the THEIR rights are in jeopardy, they're wringing their hands, lashing out and asking us what they should do when many of the solutions are too little too late now.

What they should have done is not stayed at home in 2010 and 2014 so they could "hold Obama's feet to the fire" because he didn't scratch their every itch.

What they should have done is voted like they gave a shish about protecting people they didn't know and whom they thought couldn't do anything for them.

What they should have done was realize that when they looked the other way as minorities' voting rights were suppressed, the very people who would have helped them keep these right wing nuts out of office were kept out the polling place.

So, now we're stuck with what is and with very few options. But we do have options that we should focus on instead of flailing about demanding actions that either can't happen or would be extremely dangerous.

Instead of demanding Dems beat the crap out of two senators whom we desperately need (especially since that won't change their votes), we need to focus like laser beams on getting legislation passed that can get through the House and Senate (follow Pelosi's lead - she knows what can and can't be done), protecting the right to vote, reproductive rights, etc. state by state, and working like hell to elect more Democrats to the Senate, House, governorships and statehouses in 2022, among other things.

And read this - it's full of great information and suggestions for action: https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15807007

[lagomorph777]

61. That is precisely how it works on the Reptilian side of the aisle.

And it works spectacularly well for McTurtle.

We need to study our enemy's successes and learn from them.

[StarfishSaver]

62. That's how Republicans have behaved, not how the Senate works

Replicating their abuse of the process should not be our goal.

[lagomorph777]

63. Party discipline is a legitimate tool to achieve worthy goals.

It is not, of course, a goal in itself.

[StarfishSaver]

64. Party discipline doesn't mean draconian punishment for members who don't follow the party line

but are representing the will of their constituents.

Unless you'd be fine with Pelosi and Schumer stripping Bernie Sanders, AOC and the Squad, CBC Members, and other progressive Members, of their committee chairmanships/memberships because they criticize and/or don't vote with leadership or the majority of the Caucus, you shouldn't demand it be done to Manchin and Sinema just because they aren't going along with something you happen to want.

[lagomorph777]

65. Sure, Manchin's constituents don't want infrastructure money.

Unless by "constituents" you mean "coal donors".

[StarfishSaver]

67. Manchin's a better judge of what his constituents want than you or Schumer

But the fact that there's not a groundswell of protest in WV against Manchin's positions should give you a clue.

But the bottom line is, as I said, that it is neither appropriate nor feasible for Democratic leadership to impose the most draconian punishments on Senators because they don't toe the party line. And not just because it wouldn't even achieve the goal you claim to want.

The fact that you surely would not be ok with such tactics if they were used against a Senator whose position you supported pretty much settles it.

[lagomorph777]

68. If Democratic leadership opposed my positions/beliefs to that degree, I would not be a Democrat.

So, no, that doesn't pretty much settle it. It's about the positions, not the tactics.

[StarfishSaver]

70. Okay

Let's go with that, and then play it out .

Suppose Schumer strips Manchin and Sinema of their committee assignments. Then what? Please explain the next steps for ensuring passage of the measures we want .. And how the discipline you're calling for will open up the path toward that goal.

[lagomorph777]

73. The punishments I have in mind would be more like informing WV voters of what he's up to;

what he is keeping away from them. Saturate Fux and Falsebook with ads about what they are missing out on because of their Senator.

[StarfishSaver]

74. So ...

You're NOT calling for Manchin and Sinema to have their committee assignments yanked, which was the topic of this discussion?

[lagomorph777]

75. "Punished" was what I keyed on.

Details are what the remainder of the thread is about.

[StarfishSaver]

54. One of the things I've learned since joining DU ...

Some Democrats have no problem at all with Republican "the ends justify the means" tactics - as long as it's Democrats who are employing them to achieve their goals.

[BlueTsunami2018]

58. Truth.

I don’t see any other way to beat people who have no restrictions on or consequences for how they achieve goals. If good people won’t do hard things, the bad guys always win.

Are we not in a life and death struggle for all the progress we’ve made in the past fifty plus years? Or is that an extreme, unrealistic point of view and everything is going just fine?

[StarfishSaver]

60. What's the point of beating them using their own tactics?

The point of all of this is supposed to be that we are not them, we're better than they are, we don't do the things they do. But if we replicate them, we turn into them and we are no better.

And no, this isn't a case of "we'll just do this long enough to get our power back and then we'll go back to being the good guys." That's never how it works. Once we turn into them, we've turned into them and there's no turning back.

If good guys behave like bad guys in order to beat the bad guys, the good guys turn into the bad guys. And claiming we're doing it because OUR cause is just is BS - that's always the excuse that people use for doing the wrong thing.

So, no.

[hamsterjill]

3. Something needs to be done to them to get them in line.

Already the “we can’t do anything” responses here.

It’s bullshit. Dems need to figure this out. Use whatever means necessary. Time is running out.

[RKP5637]

5. K&R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[ChazII]

36. I agree 100%. How can we encourage

people in Arizona to get Sen. Sinema get in line? I have emailed her office. Doing what I can since she is my senator.

[rdking647]

49. step one is starting to pull federal money out of WV and AZ

[PortTack]

4. Okay...but what if they flip to gqp? Then we lose all kinds of appointments

Should Breyer decide to retire, turtle will block any appointment Biden makes regardless. Then what..a 7-2 SCOTUS. No more federal appeals judges, cabinet positions that might go vacant

We really are between a rock and a hard spot

[TheRealNorth]

7. Exactly

Need to keep a clear eye and not act out of emotion.

[LenaBaby61]

15. Even when Dems could appoint someone to the High Court ..

tRaitor Mitch was able to block that AND place his own Federalist boys up there.

So even if Breyer retires from the bench, whose to say Manchin and Sinema won't block who Pres. Biden chooses to go onto the court? Say Manchin may tell Biden that HE wants a more centrist white male judge (Not an African-American woman who we know Biden wants to place on the High Court), then what? And Sinema--she's too stupid to do anything but curtsy, wear stupid clothing and look like a complete moron who does know her way around a grift though apparently.

Dems are in a shit ton of trouble, because we won't be able to get shit done thanks to those two tRaitors are in almost complete control of the party, and from a right-wide perspective.

[PortTack]

24. I don't think that's a chance we should take...my opinion but I think leadership feels the same or

They would’ve been pushing on the 2 that are blocking voting rights and monied bills.

[Budi]

8. How bout a few others who aint done nothing but shit on the D Party

We're drowning in their demands & brilliance.

Lots of blame to go around, since we're pointing fingers

[Celerity]

16. non sequitur, your eternal targets have not blocked a single bill this Congress

Manchin just took a giant shit all over Biden and the rest of the Party's agenda (with the likely exceptions of co-obstructionists/blockers Sinema and the renegade 10 'Problem Solvers' conservadems in the House, many of whom tried to torpedo Pelosi as Speaker as well).

Your selective whataboutism is a major fail.

[SunImp]

43. 1++++

[BlueTsunami2018]

9. Something must be done.

This is playing out the way it always does. We lose elections, the fascists decide everything. We win elections and the fascists still get to decide everything.

When do we get to win? When do we get to do the things the People elected our guys to do?

I’m sick of these assholes always getting what they want and we never do. Everything we do always has to be watered down while they go hardcore.

It’s maddening.

[hamsterjill]

17. Me, too.

Time to change our tactics and start winning. Or democracy dies.

[Budi]

22. LOL. Time to 'start' was about 5 years ago.

"Time to change our tactics and start winning. Or democracy dies."

Change in Tactics created this shitshow.
Now those same fkers demand "DO SOMETHING!!".

My faith is in President Biden to fix this mess also.

[PortTack]

26. Agree. This isn't President Biden's first rodeo

[Dave says]

21. Maybe we didn't yet win?

Maybe it’s 47 Democrats, 3 independents, and 50 Republicans?

[BlueTsunami2018]

30. Bernie is on our side, King is on our side.

It’s isn’t independents (there are only two) who are holding up the agenda, it’s two people who identify as Democrats. We did win, only we didn’t. As usual.

[tritsofme]

10. So what do you do when an angry Manchin reacts by making McConnell majority leader?

Not a very well thought out plan you have there.

[VarryOn]

12. You'd have to expect his has a very, very sweet deal on the table from Mitch...

Ready for the taking anytime he wants. Sinema, no doubt, has a nice deal, too.

[ColinC]

11. Same.

Maybe my "kick them out of the party" thing is a bit extreme, but some serious punishments need to be considered, like what you said above.

[tritsofme]

33. I just don't understand how you can possibly think Dem leadership has leverage to impose any sort of

meaningful “punishment”

When in a 50/50 Senate, the punished member can bolt and give the Senate back to McConnell.

[ColinC]

34. Removing from committees and chairmanships is substantial

Their only option would be to switch parties, but there is no viability for influence or re election in that case.

[tritsofme]

47. McConnell would be waiting in the wings to offer whatever assignments and chairs he chooses.

Manchin is 74 years old, and the only Democrat who can win that seat, there is simply no real leverage.

[Politicub]

13. Sinema may be persuaded by a Claire's Boutique gift card so she can

buy herself an instagrammable ring.

Not sure about Manchin. Maybe he would like a velvet cape with Ermine fur trim.

[Celerity]

18. she already beat you to it

Sinema may be persuaded by a Claire's Boutique gift card so she can buy herself an instagrammable ring.

[Politicub]

31. I should have said *another* ring, then.

[Celerity]

32. I thought you had at first read

[Carlitos Brigante]

56. .

[Jose Garcia]

19. You are assuming that there aren't other Democratic Senators who agree with them

[Celerity]

48. Feinstein, whilst still opposed to binning the filibuster, is finally open to reforming it

The only two holdouts who are still against even reform are Manchin, and the even more extreme Sinema, who wants a 60 vote threshold for ALL Senate legislation and action.


""I want to restore the 60-vote threshold for all elements of the Senate's work," Senator Sinema..."

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/100215097191

[stillcool]

20. they need to be marginalized...

somehow the Dems have to find 2 (R)'s that will vote with them, or throw in the towel, turn out the lights and go home. Nothing left but memories. It's sad that 48 individuals can't save the 300+million of us. Subtract 2 if counting (D) from WV and AZ, but add 2 if counting (I)

[brooklynite]

25. ...and then let's PRIMARY them!!!!

The Republicans who replace their more progressive alternatives will be very thankful.

[onenote]

27. Yep. Lots of table banging and not a single practical suggestion

in this thread

[StarfishSaver]

46. I love how the "Democratic leaders are out of step with progressives"

want that leadership to abuse their power to force Senators to vote the way they want ... and yet they would completely melt down if that same leadership used that same power to force progressive Senators to bend to their will on a different issue.

[ColinC]

35. Manchin, sure. But sinema?

She is already becoming the political opposite of Kelly, who's approval rating is through the roof in comparison. We don't need right wing light to win elections. GA is proof of that.

[brooklynite]

38. Is Kelly advocating elimination of the Filibuster?

[ColinC]

39. He has not opposed it.

And he has not threatened to vote against any reconciliation package of any kind like sinema has.

[FloridaBlues]

28. Republicans are the ones passing horrible laws and Democrats

Take the hit for them.

[mucifer]

37. I believe the dems were smart this time trying to get a huge bill they knew wouldn't get passed so

they could have bargaining room.

Something will pass. It just will be smaller. There will be a compromise.

[Corgigal]

40. Sounds good.

Let them show us what they really are. Step behind the curtain, we need to know our enemy. They don’t care about black people, nor women. If those groups don’t show up for any election, it all doomed. Let’s fight against our true enemies, not perceived. Can’t govern within the lines when the other side doesn’t. The lines are being erased

[I_UndergroundPanther]

41. Yes.

[0rganism]

42. No

Not until we have at least 2 more Democratic senators in office to keep the majority

[StarfishSaver]

44. We don't strip people of committee assignments just because they don't vote as leadership wants

Leave that kind of retribution to the Republicans.

But if you think it's a good idea, consider how you'd like Democratic leadership to do that to a Senator or Member who doesn't go along with them for reasons you happen to agree with ...

[dflprincess]

50. I think it's time for the DNC to start flooding West Virginia and Arizona with information on how

their Senators are voting against them.

Given the numbers of seniors in Arizona I'd love to hear how Sinema explains to them that she's against expanding Medicare to coverr dental, vision, and hearing.

[Doremus]

52. Yes. At the very least.

[Drunken Irishman]

55. Manchin doesn't give a fuck about the Democratic Party...

And that alone makes him dangerous. He only cares about Numero Uno. If you strip him of his committee, don't be surprised if McConnell turns around and says, "I'll give you your committee assignment back if you switch parties..." and he just might do it.

Manchin probably has nothing to lose because he's likely to get beat in his reelection anyway - and that's if he decides to run for reelection.

The fact he has little to lose, and is still doing this, tells me he is irredeemable.

[joetheman]

66. It would be better if voters could punish them. nt

[ripcord]

71. Authoritarian much?

I know I have said we need to work on our messaging but "vote as you are told or or be punished" is not the direction I was going.

[StarfishSaver]

76. IKR?

[NurseJackie]

72. Ridiculous. That's not how it works. (Thank goodness.)