This Texas abortion ban: I'm confused.

[VMA131Marine]

Last edited Fri Sep 3, 2021, 01:32 AM - Edit history (1)

The law says that anybody living in Texas can sue abortion providers or people who assist women in getting abortions after the detection of a fetal heartbeat. If the suit is successful in stopping an abortion, the plaintiff receives $10,000 from the defendant. There are no criminal penalties. Here’s where my confusion lies: there is no such thing as double jeopardy in civil court, that’s part of the reason you need to show standing and a tangible injury to file a lawsuit. But the Texas law lets anyone sue so after someone is successfully sued, everyone else in Texas could theoretically file the exact same suit, and why wouldn’t they with the promise of $10k sitting out there and all the difficult work of proving the case already done and written down in black and white in the court transcript? Coincidentally, the surge of suits would promptly shut down the civil side of the Texas legal system.

Also, what’s the standard of evidence for proving you prevented an “illegal” abortion? Civil cases are usually decided on a preponderance of the evidence, but how do you prove somebody was going to have an abortion. How do you prove it occurred after a fetal heartbeat was detected? This would only be possible if the plaintiff had access to the patient’s medical records, which are prevented from disclosure without patient authorisation by HIPAA; HIPAA is a federal law. Providers cannot be forced to break Federal law by state judges.

P.S. Maybe I’m not so confused after all. I wrote a Twitter thread on this noting that the method used to enforce the Texas ban could be used against, for example, gun manufacturers and gun stores to ban access to certain types of firearms. Then I read a WaPo article that made the exact same point:
“ Qui tam lawsuits, Jenkins said, are meant to ferret out wrongdoing. By contrast, he added, the abortion law allows any citizen to become a potential enforcer of a policy that will probably face serious constitutional challenges.
Jenkins said that principle could be applied by lawmakers in other states who want to take aim at aspects of the Constitution they don’t like, such as freedom of the press or the right to bear arms.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/texas-abortion-ban-jonathan-mitchell/2021/09/02/ecbd1124-0c17-11ec-aea1-42a8138f132a_story.html

[rdking647]

1. double jeopardy only applies to criminal cases

this is designed as a civil case

[Hugh_Lebowski]

12. The OP first paragraph is saying exactly that (nt)

[underpants]

2. There's no jurisdiction either

I just heard that on CNN. A person could sue in any court they feel like.

[Ms. Toad]

7. Not really. They should have better legal analysts

Courts have jurisdicitonal standards that are generally applicble. If a court is capped at $500 (as some smaller courts are), the suit can't be brought there. Others have a limited ability based on the kind of claim (e.g. probate is generally limted to wills, guardianships, etc.)

The suit generallly can't be brought in a Federal Court, since you have to have citizens of different states and damages in excess of $75,000.

So you're in state court - and there will be a limited number of courts that handle this kind of matter.

As to location - as a general rule the proper geographic location is where the event occurred or the defendant lives.

Where a court can be heard will be governed by the rules of civil procedure - it would not be included in the law itself.

[LeftInTX]

3. I feel the same way..It's plain old crazy

I'm a bit more appalled at the USSC...I can't believe that they are falling for this illogical BS

Now, Texas is never logical and it's full of yahoos, but the USSC is supposed to be a stopping point for crazy.....

[Ms. Toad]

4. It's another evil aspect of the law

There is a provision that says having paid the statutory amount is a defense to a second suit. Unfortunately, the statutory amount has a floor - not a ceiling (a minimum of $10,000). So no matter how much a defendant has paid, it will never be the full statutory amount (so, theoretically, the defendant can be sued over and over again.)

[obamanut2012]

5. Anyone anywhere, not just in Texas

As per what I heard earlier.

I live in SOFL. A friend in Austin tells me about her neighbor had an abortion two years ago. I can sue in any court in Texas. All legal.

[Claustrum]

10. No standing or jurisdiction required. What kind of a law is that?

Can we have one for gun sellers in blue states? I am sure the republicans will cry foul if a gun law lets people sue if they know of a gun sale without standing or jurisdiction.

[Ms. Toad]

15. Not quite.

An abortion two years ago was not covered by the law. The abortion would had to have taken place yesteray or today.

In addition, the rules of civil procedure will govern where you can sue (which will generally be in the location of the abortion or other action - or - where the defendant lives). (Here are the rules for Texas: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/docs/cp/htm/cp.15.htm)

[Igel]

18. Their source missed basic civics.

This was middle-school social studies in the '70s.

That whole "ex post facto" law business.

The bigger problem is finding standing and evidence.

[KentuckyWoman]

8. The goal

Is to push all providers out of the state. It is going to be lawsuit mania. Providers will decide it isn't worth all the legal hassles and leave.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

14. Yup, been saying the same (nt)

[lame54]

9. If you witness an uber driver drop a woman off at a clinic...

You can sue both of them

What proof the judge will require is yet to be seen

[bamagal62]

11. They're nuts.

And, I wish they’d do what they are always threatening, secede. We have family in Texas and they’re all religious nut bags. One family is a quiver full with about 9 kids. I’ve de-friended all of them on Facebook.

[twin_ghost]

13. The point of the law is to go after providers of Abortion.

Attorneys charge $750 per hour so no abortion provider is going to risk being on the hook for those legal fees, the plaintiffs legal fees plus $10k for each abortion. Insurance policies will not cover providers that are sued.

[Ferrets are Cool]

17. This

[Lithos]

16. TBH - the solution

Is a GoFundMe (out of state) which funds for a ticket from Texas to Denver or similar destination who wishes to have a "second opinion" over any medical issues they may have. I'm sure with some negotiations the ticket can be renegotiated to under $100. It's up to the woman what that issue is.