General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsLook out, Communist China might be drifting toward communism
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/world/asia/china-xi-common-prosperity.html"Four decades ago, Deng Xiaoping declared that China would 'let some people get rich first' in its race for growth. Now, Xi Jinping has put Chinas tycoons on notice that it is time for them to share more wealth with the rest of the country."
Well they definitely let some people get rich. With 626 billionaires, according to Forbes, China stands as a close second only to the USA, with 724.
With income equality even more glaring than in the USA, and some serious environmental issues affecting an agrarian sector whose population probably rivals that of the whole USA, if not even far greater, they have plenty to address. I'm sure some of them will adopt a Bill Gates approach, saying they have more than they'll ever spend, so here, take 80% of what I have, and do some good. I'm just as sure that some of them will just say the government is corrupt and will just spend it on military adventures and not the people, and then move to Singapore, or some other such place with a large Chinese population. Not that Beijing is without the means to find them, if they want to.
But after decades of pure laissez-faire capitalism, I find it more than a little ironic that a country ruled exclusive by its Communist Party is suddenly thinking it is time they need to start acting like communists.
Irish_Dem
(45,616 posts)In a relatively short period of time.
It is an amazing process to observe.
China gave its people a much higher standard of living and some freedoms.
Now it is out of balance with too many rich elite.
It will keep autocorrecting until it reaches its goal.
DFW
(54,047 posts)So I only rely on reports I have heard from people who go there a lot. But from what I hear, some of the big cities just exude amazing wealth and prosperity, where the hinterlands, as well as those parts of the big cities the locals prefer that visitors don't see, are close to back where they were 80 years ago. In a country that big, I don't how or even if there is a mechanism to correct that.
Response to DFW (Reply #4)
Irish_Dem This message was self-deleted by its author.
kcr
(15,300 posts)Then google "uyghur camps"
Irish_Dem
(45,616 posts)Google BLM being gassed at the White House.
Or US governors killing their own citizens.
Or look at our military history of bombing brown people back to the Stone Age.
If we want to make a better world we have to face reality.
kcr
(15,300 posts)They don't erase or minimize the ugly truths that exist elsewhere.
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/02/1033687586/china-ban-effeminate-men-tv-official-morality
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)So a police officer killing someone while detaining them and then going to jail for it is the same to you as the largest arbitrary detention of ethnic and religious minorities since World War II?
David__77
(23,212 posts)
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)What percentage of those exactly are slaughtered?
David__77
(23,212 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)I'm sure it's valuable even though I question some of your comparisons, such as these listed. I love hearing that many people are doing much better, but can't equate a few U.S. hoodlums illegally attacking a few Asians on the street with to systematic government persecution, and even murder, of whole populations.
I've read about whole regions of agricultural age villagers having been transplanted to high rises in cities, in huge numbers, their villages and ways destroyed. Have the older generations been trained for jobs, and how are they doing now?
DFW
(54,047 posts)It's always best to get first hand reports, even if they conflict. They are always better than second-hand news.
Though not a military brat, my brother had one of those "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" jobs that posted him in Japan at times. He met his wife there, and though she came back with him to live in the USA, she remains Japanese to her core. Their two sons are very American on the surface, but never forgave their mom for not speaking to them in Japanese from day one. They envy our two daughters who are fully bilingual because my wife and I never spoke to them in anything other than our native languages. My brother's wife was happy to make the move, as her job as a bank teller in 1980 was about as high as she could hope to go in those days as a woman in banking in Japan. In about five years after moving to Washington, she was vice-director for Asia at the World Bank.
Myself, I remain a Europhile, at home in many countries, speaking nine (and a half, if you count Schwyzerdüütsch as half a language) European languages. Though I have never been to the Philippines, I know more Tagalog than I know Japanese, and that is precious little. I have always regretted never learning Mandarin, but them's the breaks. As it is, I don't think there aren't many of us "Murkens" that speak Swedish, Dutch, Russian and Catalan. Though I am disgusted by the cumbersome, uncaring German bureaucracy, so is my wife, and she IS German, so it's not like my perception of things here is out of the mainstream. There are plenty of positive aspects to life here as well (though nothing is "free," as some would profess). Across the Rhein, it is no different. There are no bigger critics of France than the French.
Irish_Dem
(45,616 posts)To have so many bi and multi lingual folks in your family.
Your family reunions must be amazing, not just language but the food as well!
DFW
(54,047 posts)With my brothers wife coming from Japan and mine from Germany, and the guests from every continent except Antarctica and Australia, it already looked like a mini meeting of the UN General Assembly. My wife is already a gourmet chef, so in any given week, well have North Sea style fish with dill and horseradish, Texas style BBQ, Italian pasta with artichoke hearts and Greek black olives, Indian garam massala, and some as yet non-existent recipe that she decided to make up on sudden inspiration.
Our elder daughter in New York married a Russian Catholic who grew up in Israel, so add that to our German-American granddaughters who live in the Taunus hills outside Frankfurt, and you have a continuation of the cultural stew that we started some 40 years ago. Quite a contrast, really. Two brothers of Eastern European mongrel background with women from Lower Saxony Catholic and Shinto Buddhist families with histories going back over half a millenium, and a reshuffling of the genetic and cultural decks was inevitable.
Irish_Dem
(45,616 posts)Wow, that was a remarkable event.
My immediate family loves ethnic food, so your daily menu sounds wonderful.
I love making Indian dishes.
As I mentioned my daughter is Asian, I did not get her as an infant, and it has been so much fun to raise a child from a different racial background. Early on we attended all kinds of Asian events, made many friends, celebrated Chinese holidays, etc. I tried to keep her culture alive for her.
I think reshuffling the cultural deck is a blessing to a family. It gives a depth and great interest. I am sure the the children in your genetic reshuffle are amazing.
underpants
(182,270 posts)Keep the masses from rising up.
Can't afford to have any Chairman Mao types emerging, after all.
Klaralven
(7,510 posts)So long as the billionaires stayed in the business sphere they were fine. Once they started to influence politics and social attitudes, they threaten the primacy of the Party.
The Party is interested in maintaining a one-party authoritarian government. It is post-socialist and post-capitalist in the sense that the government does not have to own business in order to control it, and private capital can be accumulated and deployed efficiently while it's owners are subordinated to the Party.
Wounded Bear
(58,436 posts)It has worked pretty well for them so far. We'll see how this new turn to more traditional "socialism" works.
DFW
(54,047 posts)They would never turn back to state ownership of the means of production. The bigger the country/economy, the more unwieldy socialism becomes, and they have recent first hand experience to remind them. They tried that until Deng realized it wasn't getting them anywhere, and loosened the reins. Suddenly, they are rich beyond their wildest dreams, and a major world power to boot. With socialism, they would have remained where they were before Deng.
They'll probably couch it in as many Marxist terms as they can twist and get away with, but the one thing they won't do is repeat what the past has shown them in no uncertain terms doesn't work. Besides, it's all window dressing anyway unless they can hit up on a big portion of the affluent to chip in. They can confiscate the full net worth of their 626 billionaires and still not make much headway in tackling income inequality in a country with 1.3 billion people. It is a cinch that the richest Chinese have long since spirited much of their wealth out of the country, so an outright confiscation (wealth tax, e.g.) won't work, either.
For this goal to become reality--IF it even can--there will have to be a higher tax rate for a much larger swath of the affluent population (spread the pain if you are to have a chance to spread the wealth). There are plenty of Chinese communities around the world where affluent Chinese can settle if they feel an NSDAP-style confiscation looming. It is a sure bet that recent controls on capital flight have long been circumvented by smart rich Chinese anticipating this. Any Shanghai billionaire in a mansion fortress will have seen the beggars on the streets and known there are half a billion more where they came from. They all took recent history in school, and know who Mao was, and how he got to where he did. They don't need to stay in China, so Xi will have to thread the needle in giving them a seemingly contradictory goal: keep less of their money at home, and not go abroad and keep more of it. Maybe he can call Joe Biden and ask him his thoughts on the subject. I'm sure at the end of the conversation, they will both tell each other, "if you think of something, let me know."
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)IF it even can--there will have to be a higher tax rate for a much larger swath of the affluent population (spread the pain if you are to have a chance to spread the wealth)."
I've read that in the U.S. all the wealth of the top 0.1% could be confiscated and, in itself, wouldn't make a huge difference in enabling the other 99% to live and run our nation as it should be. The people of nations have to pay to maintain them.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Visiting my wife who lived there for 7 months.
Its impossible to describe and the dont have a clue to understanding their politics. But they were doing very well. Kids there looked like kids here. Tall, in shape and earbuds in and glued to their phones.
Im afraid their old-ass leaders have never understood the Market forces they let loose to allow so many people to move out of poverty. I heard countless stories from middle class people about the retched lives their parents lived. It was obvious on the metro. I was 50. Anyone my age or older was very small and weak looking. As mentioned above the kids were big like high school athlete big. Not fat, but tall and filled out. No lack of food for them.
But all that prosperity has threatened the old rulers.
Im concerned the rulers will kill the goose that laid the golden egg to insure their grip on power.
That will get ugly.
former9thward
(31,798 posts)I have to disagree. Nothing significant in China has been laissez-faire since the early 50s. Everything in the macro economy is run by the Communist Party. The party says what to produce and where and when to produce it. It does let some who are in or close to the party to become rich in doing so. But the economy itself is very regulated.