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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe largest loss of life event ever in US history
During the 1918-1919 flu pandemic, the official number was 675,000 deaths. Thought some estimates go up to 850,000.
The US Civil War deaths were 620,00. But again, some estimates go as high as 750,000.
World War II had 407,316 deaths.
World War I had 116,516 deaths.
These are the four largest loss of life events ever in US history.
Around 660,000 US citizens have died from Covid-19 so far.
If we go by the official numbers, by the end of this week we will experienced the single largest loss of life event in US history.
If we use the larger numbers, according to IHME, we could eclipse them by the end of this year.
Botany
(70,504 posts)Many deaths might have never been linked to C-19.
*****
i will die mad @ what "they" did to Hillary.
Barack Obama had left the personnel, the protocols, and the materials in place that in all likelihood would
have stopped the virus in China or would have mitigated its effects world wide.
WA-03 Democrat
(3,050 posts)Otto_Harper
(509 posts)And, as someone who has spent a lifetime working with higher mathematics and data analysis, I can tell you that, in my opinion, the numbers have been, and are still being "cooked" by certain reporting entities, and, the number of dead directly from Covid exceeds whatever reporting agency figures you find.
And due to the disruption of regular medical care, as well as the reluctance of old folks (like myself) to go out for non-emergency medical issues and allow them to fester, the current death toll attributable to Covid probably exceeds 1M by a large amount.
PCIntern
(25,544 posts)And not only that, but if you include the deaths attributable to not seeking treatment for other conditions, I bet we have broken 1,000,000 even if you assumed the the official count is correct which it most certainly is not.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)Another damn sociopath like Trump.
monkeyman1
(5,109 posts)RKP5637
(67,108 posts)dump Trump to run. He's like Trump and very smart, and dangerous as hell.
monkeyman1
(5,109 posts)I call it wishful thinking ! or - maybe a brain fart !
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)rambler_american
(789 posts)Charge them, especially DeSantis and Abbott, with Depraved Heart Murder. They absolutely fit the definition and should be so charged and prosecuted. And throw in trump, while you're at it.
~
"Depraved heart murder is the form of murder that establishes that the willful doing of a dangerous and reckless act with wanton indifference to the consequences and perils involved, is just as blameworthy, and just as worthy of punishment, when the harmful result ensues, as is the express intent to kill itself. This highly blameworthy state of mind is not one of mere negligence. It is not merely one even of gross criminal negligence. It involves rather the deliberate perpetration of a knowingly dangerous act with reckless and wanton unconcern and indifference as to whether anyone is harmed or not. The common law treats such a state of mind as just as blameworthy, just as anti-social and, therefore, just as truly murderous as the specific intents to kill and to harm."
https://www.duhaime.org/Legal-Dictionary/Term/DepravedHeartMurder
pandr32
(11,583 posts)It applies, of course, but isn't ever used--or is it?
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)monkeyman1
(5,109 posts)plimsoll
(1,668 posts)Infectious disease is and always has been a threat to national security.
If you make the case that the US entry into WWI helped end the war, then you're basing it on the fact that we helped kick start the pandemic. Germany couldn't afford the additional attrition from sick and dying people.
Some of the biggest improvements to the economic health of common people have come after major biomedical catastrophes (See black death). Resources get re-allocated to a smaller pool of people, but more importantly wages go up because survivors can demand and get better wages.
So two things they're supposed to like, national defense, and keeping wages low are directly impacted by poor healthcare, but they'd have to help "those people."
Tommymac
(7,263 posts)If not for Kaiser and Nixon the US would in all likelihood followed Canada into the Modern industrial World of Health Care as a Right.
Once again, movement conservatism and greedy White Men changed the world for the worst.
On edit - there is a Nixon tape out there (that was not erased) that has the exact conversation between Kaiser and Nixon. I heard it years ago. Probably find on Google.
Raster
(20,998 posts)...and it was ALL ABOUT greed and profit.
Raster
(20,998 posts)... I am paraphrasing... I've looked for the direct quote for years... "We (the GOP) need to do everything we can to stop the Democrats and their healthcare for all. If the Democrats are ever able to fix healthcare for everyone, the GOP would never hold power again."
Again, I paraphrase. But the gist remains the same.
Ferrets are Cool
(21,106 posts)And are proving it daily.
IronLionZion
(45,442 posts)there are conservatives in countries with universal health programs that support it. The second province to get Canada Medicare was Alberta, the Texas of Canada. Most of the Tories in UK support NHS.
Beartracks
(12,814 posts)IronLionZion
(45,442 posts)GOP haven't been able to kill these programs so let's keep going until everyone is covered.
Travel Hat
(117 posts)During the 1957 "Asian", the original numbers of deaths was 62,000. After looking at excess deaths during that time frame it was raised to 112,000. In India they believe the under count to be some where above 5 to 10 times.
Botany
(70,504 posts).... C-19 that were either burned or buried without being
attributed to the virus. And if the math was right for the expected trajectory for the # of deaths then we should be
past 1 million by now.
This should have been treated as a world wide public health and medical science problem but good old Donny fucked that up big time by firing our global pandemic response team, pulling us out of the W.H.O., and making it political. He is on tape in the winter of 2020 saying it is highly infectious and spread through the air.
And why are Governors such as DeSantis, Noem, and Abbott deliberately trying to spread the disease now?
Sorry to
2naSalit
(86,607 posts)And that was not on her death certificate so I'm thinking she wasn't counted in California where she died in a nursing facility five days after testing positive and being isolated. Sure she was old and had comorbidities but she wasn't dying until she caught covid in that facility. We asked for palliative care because there was no way she was going to come through to the other side without permanent life support, which she was not using when she entered the facility.
Botany
(70,504 posts)Dry Cough, low grade fever, fatigue, and other "things" too. The first official case was reported
in Jan. 2020 in Seattle but I am all but certain the disease was in America before that.
2naSalit
(86,607 posts)It's not like the former admin was forthcoming or honest about anything.
Botany
(70,504 posts)He and Kushner invested into hydroxycholoroquine and their own C-19 test kit instead of using the W.H.O.'s
test kit. Neither which worked and the disease spread like wildfire.
I watched in horror as they purposely accelerated the advance of the virus. They helped make it a pandemic rather than an epidemic. Fuckers, they should hang for that alone.
Botany
(70,504 posts)... to spread the disease to hundreds of medical workers and 1st responders along the east coast
because they had to use garbage bags, home made face masks, and sometimes nothing when treating
or transporting C-19 patients.
* Because Trump and Kushner owe China hundreds of millions of $s (Steele Dossier)
2naSalit
(86,607 posts)At airports! And not reimbursing the states and other entities for their purchases.
Never forget that part.
Botany
(70,504 posts)Coronavirus: "Jared Kushner says national stockpile of medical equipment used for public
health emergencies is not for states."
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronavirus-jared-kushner-national-stockpile-ventilators-us-states-governors-a9445841.html
2naSalit
(86,607 posts)For charges of crimes against humanity. Well, one of the many reasons.
calimary
(81,262 posts)Your input is MOST interesting, and your credibility leaves me even more worried. I've found myself wondering how reliable the numbers are, because I've been tracking them quite unofficially and non-professionally myself, just using the Johns Hopkins/NBC News data if I happen to catch it when it's shown on TV. And that's VERY random data tracking, because that's dependent on variables including not just when MSNBC runs it but also when I happen to be tuned in there at the right time.
And this is the last one I noted, from last Friday:
The Daily Dread - Tracking the spread, 9/10/21
All times Pacific, source: Johns Hopkins/NBC News
At 12:02pm
Confirmed cases US - 40,825,593
Deaths US - 660,470
Confirmed cases worldwide - 223,370,041
Deaths worldwide - 4,611,359
We're closing in on 41-MILLION cases.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215849072
malaise
(268,997 posts)tracking those numbers
calimary
(81,262 posts)BobTheSubgenius
(11,563 posts)I have a very high degree of confidence that you are correct. (I had to stop myself from typing "dead right." Who would believe that wasn't intentional?)
And equally important....welcome to DU!
dewsgirl
(14,961 posts)being drastically undercounted. Also I think the tests here have a crazy amount of false negatives as far as the testing goes. My son(Air Force) 23, was sick for 3 weeks, as were my DIL, granddaughters, 7 years old and 16 months old. They were all sick for weeks(and all tested negative). Also this started the day after school started. All vaccinated, thank goodness. My son was just deployed yesterday to NJ overnight to help Afghanistan refugees. He was sick until last week.
littlemissmartypants
(22,656 posts)personnel not personal is the word I suspect you're looking for...
❤
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)USALiberal
(10,877 posts)littlemissmartypants
(22,656 posts)Because it confused me on first reading.
Botany
(70,504 posts)Botany
littlemissmartypants
(22,656 posts)paleotn
(17,913 posts)what virologist and epidemiologist have been predicting for decades. Donnie Covid fucked it all up. So did every other Republican. They're complicit in the deaths of hundreds of thousands.
I've been fully aware of the inevitability of something like Covid-19 since reading Garrett's The Coming Plague back in the 90's. It came out a year before Preston's The Hot Zone. It was never a question of if, but when...and how bad. And we ain't done yet.
https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Plague-Laurie-Garrett-dp-1250796121/dp/1250796121/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1631471673
monkeyman1
(5,109 posts)CottonBear
(21,596 posts)I went to a lecture by the husband and wife veterinarians who were pivotal to the story.
Terrifying.
Response to Botany (Reply #1)
Jetheels This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jetheels
(991 posts)Her campaign wasnt run well. Her choice of vp was dismal, an anti abortion guy, albeit in his personal stance. She coulda brought in millions of voters with a Sanders VP choice, for example, instead of some anti abortion, guy does anyone even remember his name?
But agreed, tfg dismantled all protocol for a pandemic, and then some, using the pandemic for personal profit, like that monster does with everything.
ShazzieB
(16,396 posts)Just saying.
Sympthsical
(9,073 posts)The Civil War took about 2% of the population.
Spanish Flu about 0.6%
WW1 about .2%
WW2 about .3%
Covid's at about 0.2% at present (and rising).
So, we're at about World War I at the moment. Can we bring it up to WWII? Seems achievable.
paleotn
(17,913 posts)killing every soul in either of those cities. I'm with you. Surely we can nuke something the size of Dallas or San Jose.
plimsoll
(1,668 posts)We all know about the Black Death, and it has a huge comparative death toll. Absolute numbers though, 1918 has killed more people than anything else. 50,000,000 to 100,000,000. When you start thinking about having to care for the people and bury the bodies, the absolute numbers are what will swamp us.
Travel Hat
(117 posts)He like to go on about the percentages are so low. Absolute numbers are more striking.
Sympthsical
(9,073 posts)Just curious about how it compared to other messes we've managed to get a scope of the scale.
As someone noted above, we've managed to nuke a Portland so far.
wnylib
(21,450 posts)using official figures? But the estimated numbers are higher.
NH Ethylene
(30,811 posts)They don't have the same 'wow' effect, but they better represent the relative impacts.
Klaralven
(7,510 posts)The Civil War is the US' only major war.
We were minor participants in WW I and II. The major combatants, UK, France, Germany, Russia, suffered much higher death rates in both wars.
The US sat out WW I until it was almost over.
WW II was mainly fought between Germany and Russia. North Africa, Italy, and the Normandy campaign, etc. were comparatively less bloody.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)People had much less contact with others, and with fewer people. Most were still rural. The world population was only 2 billion, that of the USA only around 76 million.
I'm not saying the raw counts are best either, by the way.
I'm guessing some weighted combination that also includes other measures like effect on GDP (or global) although that's apples & oranges.
Plus, by some accounts the 1918 pandemic lasted only from early 1918 to late summer 2019. There were no vaccines, no drugs, no ventilators, no respirators (only cloth masks). It was altogether a different virus, one that burned through populations in a way very similar to what Republicans wanted to let COVID do. By late 2019 everyone was either dead or immune. The dynamics of the virus getting a chance to mutate to something more "perfect" (ugh) were very different.
Joinfortmill
(14,419 posts)SergeStorms
(19,201 posts)malaise
(268,997 posts)That is all
monkeyman1
(5,109 posts)malaise
(268,997 posts)Justice is coming
Response to monkeyman1 (Reply #21)
malaise This message was self-deleted by its author.
Stuart G
(38,427 posts)He may want to run again for President of the U.S.A., but those three words...will totally prevent him running for
anything....especially "dog catcher"..If Trump runs again, he will be often struck by those three words, by every
reporter asking questions, or at forums where there are debates..Because of those 3 words..........there is no
doubt that ...Donald Trump will go down in history....as the worst president ever....
...Here are the facts on that....
....Was the Civil War preventable?...NO..(so the president before Lincoln could not have stopped it)
....Was the stock market crash in 1929..preventable?...No..no safety factors were in place to prevent the crash...
...........now, all federal deposits are insured by government...& lots of safety features are in place to prevent this
....Was WWII preventable?...No Hitler was elected by Germany..the decision for Pearl Harbor was made by Japan.................
.........When Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, the rest is history..
...Were the deaths of Covoid 19 preventable...YES..
........................Trump saying it was a "hoax" caused many deaths...
....If everyone were told from the very beginning to wear a mask..and be socially distant...many lives could have been saved...
...........even now many foolish people get into crowds and think everything will be OK..,Trump had crowds in the
White House...
malaise
(268,997 posts)Lock him up!
malaise
(268,997 posts)Lock him up!
Stuart G
(38,427 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 12, 2021, 04:08 PM - Edit history (4)
Also, Trump says, "We are totally prepared"
HUAJIAO
(2,385 posts)Stuart G
(38,427 posts)Trump will not run again for anything..He is now known by most people..."as a killer"
He will always be remembered by those 3 words...."It's A Hoax"
....Short, simple, easy to remember, and most important...available for all to watch and listen to..
HUAJIAO
(2,385 posts)Doodley
(9,089 posts)mountain grammy
(26,620 posts)He owns this
monkeyman1
(5,109 posts)WarGamer
(12,444 posts)Or does someone else own those?
mountain grammy
(26,620 posts)WarGamer
(12,444 posts)While EVERYONE acknowledges that Trump did a piss poor job of dealing with COVID-19 as President...
Facts say that the US Death Rate is in line with that of other Western Democracies with similar cultures, infrastructure, economies and health care...
better than some, worse than others. Ranked #21 in the World in Deaths/1M.
Belgium and Italy fared worse... the UK fared "slightly better" at 1965 deaths/1M compared to our 2033.
France around 13% better than the USA and Germany was the shining star in Europe with around 50% of the deaths per 1M of the USA.
In time, real actual scientific papers will be written about the root causes of fatality numbers and who/what was to blame.
Hekate
(90,683 posts)
for the next few months.
In my naïveté about the extent of the sheer malice of Trump and Trumpites, I honest to God thought my country would have a grip on the public health situation in 3 months. Not a cure, not a vaccine but the centuries-old and proven public health measures.
Instead it was a year before I had them back in the house, and they are fully-masked, as am I.
I thought we were better than this.
WarGamer
(12,444 posts)We were ALWAYS going to have a section of the population that refuses to be controlled or influenced by science and facts.
OhioTim
(259 posts)[link:https://trumpdeathclock.com/|
mountain grammy
(26,620 posts)He actively made it worse by calling it a hoax and mocking the entire process.
That some countries did worse is not relevant to what happened and is still happening here.The politicization of common public health precautions, calling it a hoax, pushing conspriacies and bogus cures led to far worse results in America. Just because some other western democracies didn't do well doesn't mean we couldn't be doing far better.
Yes, I think when the scientific papers are written we'll know what we already know.
Check out the articles on that Trump Death Clock site. Plenty of proof already exists that he made it worse, thereby owning most American deaths.
Stuart G
(38,427 posts)...The most powerful warning ever....
....A concerned president would have taken very strong steps to ...prevent that from happening here...
......REMEMBER: .....TRUMP DID NOT TAKE ANY STEPS...& ..HE CALLED IT A HOAX....
..................THAT IS IT, AND THAT IS ALL............"IT'S A HOAX"!!!!
Evolve Dammit
(16,728 posts)allow ~75 million to downplay, ignore, mock, minimize and now undermine and attack, despite the largest death toll in U.S. history. Truly sociopathic.
WarGamer
(12,444 posts)For many many years...
And yet, no moon-shot eradication program or Billions invested by the US Gov't
WarGamer
(12,444 posts)Do I need to compare to C19 for you, too?
Stuart G
(38,427 posts)wash your hands, don't stand next to anyone who is not vaccinated......Yes...VACCINATION!!
iS THAT CORRECT?????????????.........REPEAT:....VACCINATION
WarGamer
(12,444 posts)Masks reduce the spread and vaccines mostly keep you from dying.
Scientists are now saying that COVID-19 will become endemic, meaning EVERYONE will end up catching it. Unless you live in a bubble.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/endemic-covid-manageable-risk-dual-threat-influenza/620044/
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)When Tom Hanks and his wife got it and Australia. Someone said if you're going to get covid get it early when hospitals are empty and people there treat you like a special person and oddity. Now it's hard in some places to even get into a hospital.
Makes me think, if it eventually hits everyone, will we get to some crazy point where people plan when they're going to get it.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)WarGamer
(12,444 posts)samnsara
(17,622 posts)Quixote1818
(28,936 posts)Hekate
(90,683 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 12, 2021, 04:16 PM - Edit history (1)
excess deaths, and give us more reliable figures than we ever got from Trump or the Trumpite governors, or any of those myriad officials who live to cover their own asses.
FakeNoose
(32,639 posts)Even here on DU some have been posting that they thought they might have had Covid even before the virus had been identified and named. Like late 2019, there was a weird dangerous "virus" going around that was more serious than flu and more like pneumonia. Especially people who traveled or took a cruise were reporting it.
I'm certain that Covid was here before the first cases were identified, and before the deaths were added to the totals. Also many of the early deaths that occurred in the elderly care/nursing homes were disguised as "something else" for whatever reason. This happened before we started hanging the blame on Chump, so the reason wasn't political. It was just that the people didn't know.
Unexplained deaths in late 2019 and early 2020 are suspect, and in retrospect they're more likely to be Covid-related. That's just my opinion and I'm not a medical professional.
NH Ethylene
(30,811 posts)That's one way to determine the impact of Covid 19.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
(Scroll way down for graph)
muriel_volestrangler
(101,315 posts)(I picked mid July since it takes some time for all deaths to be reported and then recorded in the national system). I did a similar exercise with the excess deaths from Our World in Data, and got 820,000.
So there's a very good chance the excess deaths have already exceeded the flu pandemic of 100 years ago.
NH Ethylene
(30,811 posts)IronLionZion
(45,442 posts)since there weren't any tests and people would have gotten better or died without knowing.
That's the same problem with identifying where it originated since any evidence would have been cleaned by now.
COVID in the US got out of control when Trump officials thought it would be a good idea to scare Americans from all over the world to return home at once, avoid any sort of screening, and hope it kills us in big cities. It was deliberate and malicious. Then it continued to spiral as Trump/GOP turned it into a political issue that is backfiring badly as their own supporters are impacted.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Travel Hat
(117 posts)In reply Number 8 he did the percentages.
The Civil War took about 2% of the population.
Spanish Flu about 0.6%
WW1 about .2%
WW2 about .3%
Covid's at about 0.2% at present (and rising).
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)bucolic_frolic
(43,161 posts)We entered late in the war, and never had a naval battle during that war.
Botany
(70,504 posts)... the odds were against you because by that time with machine guns that had a 10 degree swing
per burst there really was a blanket of lead.
former9thward
(32,005 posts)We now have about 330 million people. During the Spanish flu we had a small fraction of the that. And that death number is very suspect since we did not have the public health reporting abilities and requirements that we have now.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Between 1.5 and 2 million.
IrishAfricanAmerican
(3,816 posts)we're going to hit 2 million.
meadowlander
(4,395 posts)Not technically overlapping in terms of time period with "US history" but still...
roody
(10,849 posts)In all the Americas. Many more.
Patton French
(757 posts)Its a frightening disease and people dismissing it boggles the mind.
Ohio Joe
(21,755 posts)calimary
(81,262 posts)I made a copy of this. Good, usable reference material. The Vietnam war total was 58-thousand dead. And I thought THAT was a horrendous number...
OhioChick
(23,218 posts)Reporting from the beginning has been severely under-reported.
Demovictory9
(32,456 posts)myohmy2
(3,163 posts)...we ever have a 9/11 type memorial for the victims of the Republican COVID Pandemic?
...will we ever commit to 'Never Forget'?
...will we hold accountable those who mismanaged, lied, politicized and profited from the pandemic?
...will we ever have a commission to discover the truth on how Trump and his administration failed the American people?
...will we ever discover why so many Americans had to die?
...probably not...
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)Have said that because of under reporting or incorrect reporting COVID deaths are likely well above the 1,000,000 mark
which would make this the largest loss of life event in US history.
I will never forgive the GOP for what they have done.