This is why a mandate is necessary.

[Cinnamonspice]

Alabama man dies after 43 hospitals with full ICUs turned him away; family urges COVID-19 vaccines

DeMonia suffered a heart attack and was transferred to the nearest available bed, which was more than 200 miles away at Rush Foundation Hospital in Meridian, Mississippi.

https://myfox8.com/news/coronavirus/alabama-man-dies-after-43-hospitals-with-full-icus-turned-him-away-family-urges-covid-19-vaccines/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co&utm_campaign=socialflow



This is not acceptable. People who have medical reasons not to get a shot should be exempt, but I fully support Biden's order. What people are doing is not pro-bodily autonomy or pro-life. If people cannot get help from the hospital when they need it, then their freedom to their body and their right to life is being violated. Enough is enough.

[Walleye]

1. Everybody knows this has become completely political. The solution has to be political as well

I’m sure there are medical exceptions to the vaccine recommendations but I’m also sure they are few and far between. As far as religious exceptions I don’t believe those at all. Those with religious exceptions should also be against going to the hospital, let them be sick at home.

[Cinnamonspice]

6. Christian science people are against doctors.

Won't let their kids see one either. That's a whole other debate.

[Walleye]

13. I think though they are a pretty small percentage of the population

[Beartracks]

7. Some people might be under the impression the vaccine involved fetal stem cells...

... which apparently it either did NOT, or it was sooooo tenuous a connection as to not be a concern (like, some of the research its development was based on might have once involved stem cells). In any case, the Catholic Bishops and even the Pope himself are urging people to get vaccinated.

I don't know about Protestants' protests to the vaccine -- except, of course, that its success is no longer tied to their false messiah Trump, a fact about which they are eternally butt-hurt -- but as for Catholics, there should be no problem.

================

[Ms. Toad]

28. No. This is NOT political. Do not permit the right wing to frame it that way.

It is a matter of public health, and the solution is a public health mandate - NOT a political one.

I am done with allowing anyone (regardless of politics) to frame it as political. Responding as if it was a political issue has been a major contributor to the millions of cases of COVID, the hundreds of thousands of lives lost, and the millions disrupted.

Your freedom to choose ends when your choices put my life at risk. You don't get to choose to let your 12 year old drive a car. You don't get to drive on the wrong side of the road. You don't get to kill other people. No one frames any of these choices as political - and we wouldn't tolerate it if they tried. There is no reason to tolerate it with COVID.

[Walleye]

31. I don't tolerate it. It's not political with us, just with the right wing morons

[Ms. Toad]

32. It is not political - PERIOD.

You advocated a political solution, and said that everyone knows it's political..

Do not humor their suggestion that it is. it is not, by any stretch of the imagination. COVID doesn't care whehter you are left or right.
It cares whether you are vaccinated, and whether you are wearing a mask. Whenever they make the suggestion, redirect the conversation to the science. Politics are subject to popular vote. Protecting public health is not - it is based on the very clear science.

Unvaccinated people (whatever their political persuasion) are a public health risk - the solution is to address the health risk based on science, not politics.

[Walleye]

34. OK have it your way. Nobody is involving any politics in this situation

[Ms. Toad]

35. I didn't say no one was involving politics -

The right is certainly screaming politics at every opportunity. My point is that we need to be firm that it is NOT a matter politics - it is a matter of science.

When they scream politics, we don't roll over, play dead, and agree that it is political. We remind them this is a public health matter, not politics.

[Walleye]

36. Good luck with that.So we appeal to their civic duty and their conscience? Doubt that works

We are dealing with millions of irrational people. Just pointing out where they’re wrong isn’t gonna work. I’m glad Joe put the hammer down

[Ms. Toad]

37. No. We take control of the conversation.

The vaccine mandate is a public health measure. It is NOT a political measure, and allowing them to frame it that way is suicide. They can say whatever they want, but the mandate exists, and we lose when we give in to their rhetoric and, worse yet, start repeating it. We need to de-legitimize it, not agree with them. Push them to the fringes where they belong.

I've been shutting down every conversation for months, the moment they start talking about anything other than science-based responses to a public health crisis. I'll talk with them about the actual science, if they have any, but not about politics, or rights that donn't exist, etc. If they persist, I remind them it is about health, not politics - and if they keep going I walk away.

[Walleye]

38. Well I wish science would solve the problem of deliberate ignorance

Is there a science-based public health measure we can take to counter the disinformation? Nothing seems to be working except of course the mandates.

[Ms. Toad]

46. There is nothing wrong with mandates.

They are time-honored public health measures. The problem is accepting the right wing frame that a mandate necessary to keep the public safe is political. It is not.

The science-based public health measure is two-fold: (1) issuing the necessary public health mandates and (2) refusing to engage in conversations that describe them as political.

Example:

RWIdiot: The mandates are just left-wing politics.

Response: This has nothing to do with politics. COVID is a public health crisis. It has infected 226 million people, killng 4.6 million of them, and leaving about 1/3 of those infected with long-term memory, heart, or neurological disabilities. COVID doesn't care what your political affiliation is.

RWIdiot: But we should be free to choose to take our own risks.

Response: That would be accurate if you really were just taking risks for yourself - but your choice not to get vaccinated puts my life in danger because you can expose me (or my child) before you even know you are sick. When private choices endanger others, the right to a free, unfettered choice no longer exists. It's no different from existing laws mandating vaccination for children before they enter kindergarten and, in most places, in middle school. Your unvaccinated child (whether for measles or COVID) puts everyone else in the classroom at risk. It's no different from traffic laws for that matter. On your own property you can drive on whichever side of the road you want, drive at 150 miles an hour, or whatever risk you want to take. But when you enter the public road, you have to drive on the right, stop at stop signs, obey the speed limit, etc. None of that is politics - it's simply public safety.

RWIdiot: But you just hate Trump.

Response: I do, but that has nothing to do with this conversation. Do you obey traffic laws? Are you vaccinated for other things? Is your child vaccinated for other things?

And so on. Each time the RWIdiot brings the conversation back to politics, redirect back to public health. Just refuse to engage in any conversation that characterizes responsible public health measures as political. I'm very blunt with people who start raising the issue of politics.

One of my students was wearing a shield, instead of a mask, which is not permitted without an accommodation from disablity services. When I told him to put a mask on, he started the conversation with, I'm sure you know we are from opposite ends of the political spectrum. I interrupted him with my mantra, "This has NOTHING to do with politics. It is a matter of public health. I'm glad to talk science with you, and I'll even discuss politics in general with you. But I am done entertaining the suggestion that COVID is a political matter. It's not." Every time I've seen him since then he's been wearing a mask.

With the mandates rolling out (which are supported by a majority of the US), the RWIdiots will find fewer and fewer audiences for this particular idiocy - especially if we just shut down any conversation that frames it as politics.

[Walleye]

48. I agree. But we're not dealing with rational minds. I prefer not to listen to them at all

[Ms. Toad]

49. That's fine, too.

Again - the reason I responded was that you accepted the argument that it is political. It's not - and my point is that accepting that framing undercuts the position that it is a public health matter, not a political matter. In other words it is not one view of politics against another, it is public health v. politics, and politics has no place dicating a response to a public health crisis.

[Walleye]

50. That's correct. To me it's humanity versus the virus, you're either with us or against us

[raising2moredems]

42. Or as we all should say..

My deeply held religious beliefs require all to be vaccinated.

[Walleye]

45. Yes! I think that is the answer.

[unblock]

2. I'm increasingly pissed off about the media humoring the "freedom" bullsh*t

It's not about freedom.

There is no freedom to infect.

Refusing to protect yourself is about freedom until you go out and mingle with other people. If you want to not vax and not mask, stay in your own damn house and don't spew your germs onto other people.

The minute these people leave their house and start spreading it, it's a biological attack on other Americans.

Screw the media for not heavily emphasizing this point.

It's an act of violence and terrorism!

Is suicide-bombing an act of freedom? No, because it harms other people.

The media needs to shut up about the freedom argument, it's flat out wrong.

[Cinnamonspice]

8. Agreed.

I do have to say that experts claimed last year that if everybody would just wear a mask that it would drastically reduce the spread. The problem is too many people won't even do that.

[KS Toronado]

41. You are absolutely correct about media overusing the term "freeDumb"

They think only true American patriots care about freedoms.

[RockRaven]

3. The WHO has a position paper on the ethics of vaccine mandates for Covid, and this is one

of the factors/circumstances they cite as making mandates acceptable -- overwhelmed health care systems.

https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/WHO-2019-nCoV-Policy-brief-Mandatory-vaccination-2021.1


Of course, Repukes will try to do the opposite of anything the WHO says, just because...

[crickets]

4. +1

[TNNurse]

5. It is a damn public health emergency

and anyone who does not understand that is an idiot.

[mike507]

9. New rule

Willfully unvaccinated patients lose there bed to critical vaccinated patient.

[fescuerescue]

10. The bottom line, is that citizens of the Presidency, Biden has the right to vaccinate us.

Last edited Mon Sep 13, 2021, 01:26 PM - Edit history (1)

It's a power that the President rarely has to use, but it it is his civil right.

It's the same concept as the draft.

Except this saves lives instead of ending those of non-us citizens.

People need to shutup. and fucking comply.

(edited to be more politically correct)

[OrangeJoe]

12. The Draft vs Masks

I've posted the following argument on a couple of right wing websites and the responses range from "f--- off" to "Communist!"
Why do you accept that the government can conscript you into the army, send you off to a foreign land to kill and die but insist that it's denying your freedom and trampling on your rights when they require you to wear a mask in certain public spaces?

[former9thward]

15. Then why did he just say employers of 100 and above?

Most emplolyees work for small business. If all we are are "subjects" who must "shutup and fucking obey" his commands then why did he stop at 100?

[Dream Girl]

19. Not really. Only 2% of companies have more than 100 employees, but they account for about 65% of the

Workforce. Add to that healthcare workers and federal employees and contractors and that is about 100 M people.

[former9thward]

25. It leaves about 40-50 million people not covered.

If this was worth doing then why stop at 100 employees?

[Dream Girl]

27. An estimated 100 M are covered, but only 80M Americans a unvaxed

I’m not sure how that math works, but those are the figures I read earlier.

[littlemissmartypants]

21. Gosh, that seems harsh.

I didn't see where he said

"...we are are "subjects" who must "shutup and fucking obey" his commands ..."

I'm pretty sure he has the best interests of the country in mind, whatever he does.

[former9thward]

24. ???

You didn't read post #10 which I replied to? All those words were used.

[littlemissmartypants]

26. Wow, I skipped right past that. Ouch.

[raising2moredems]

43. My take...

Is that the employers over 100 will take care of the under 100s. Suppliers, vendors, contractors, etc. will choose money every time. Just as property insurers should be saying enough re: covering repeated hurricanes in areas filled with climate change deniers, health care insurers will raise rates (likely at first) then refuse coverage to non-vaccinated.

[fescuerescue]

56. I agree with that except the health insurers raising rates on the unvaxxed

For the most part, that is illegal to do so under the Affordable Care ACt.

ACA only allows rates based on age and smoking status. health status CANNOT be used to base a rate.

There are a handful of exceptions. These exceptions are grandfathered, self-insured plans that pre-date ACA. But those are somewhat rare now. Delta Airlines had one.

[Treefrog]

18. "Subjects?"

“Fucking obey?”

I think Biden hasn’t gone far enough and think he should make vax mandatory to travel on airlines, trains etc.

But that kind of language is probably a non-starter.

[fescuerescue]

20. Feel free to replace those words with any that you feel is better

But the goal line is the same imo.

[Treefrog]

22. I hear ya.

Subjects just puts me in mind of 1500s England lol.

But something needs to be done.

[Ms. Toad]

29. No.

And I'm sure you see why if you just swap Trump for Biden.

Biden is not king. We are not his subjects.

[fescuerescue]

30. Just get vaccinnated

The words aren't important.

[Ms. Toad]

33. Yes, they are important.

We have been subjected to someone who wanted to be a dictator or king - and he very nearly succeeded. His acolytes view themselves as his subjects adn worship the ground he walks on.

We don't. That is not how our political system works.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

44. Run that by me again.

The bottom line, is that as subjects of the Presidency, Biden has the right to vaccinate us.

Uhhhhhh.....

[fescuerescue]

51. I went ahead and edited it to fit US English

The bottom line though is that people need to do this.

a couple words don't matter.

[forthemiddle]

52. The President cannot order a draft without Congressional approval

The President is not a King, most things MUST go through the Congress first.
I am unsure on the vaccine mandate, but you can bet that the lawsuits are going to focus on if he has that power or not. Only time will tell.
I think OSHA can order Emergency Rules, but it is my understanding it must prove grave danger for it to be valid. I have read a few opinions that they may not pass that level of grave danger when it comes to ALL employees. For instance, with companies of over 100 employees that employ a large amount of remote workers (like my company), they may not reach that level of danger.

[Tommymac]

11. Spot On. K & R nt

[bucolic_frolic]

14. If they were spreading a deadly STD there would be an uproar

I guess contact tracing was all over with this months ago, and who can blame them, it was too complicated.

[tclambert]

55. Depends who it affects. If it mostly hits gay men, Republicans wouldn't talk about it for a decade.

Scientific American had an article a while back comparing and contrasting the HIV pandemic vs. Covid. Some interesting parallels in the political response. And we got really lucky that Covid isn't as deadly as HIV was in the 80s, and that HIV wasn't as contagious as Covid. We got lucky, also, in that we quickly developed a vaccine for Covid. 40 years later, there's still no vaccine for HIV.

[Jetheels]

16. And how about because

it’s a fucking world wide pandemic.

[LT Barclay]

17. Don't forget this is just another symptom of a for profit medical system. I asked this question in

Physical Therapy school when we had to debate universal healthcare versus a for profit system:
"How much healthcare is provided with the money that goes to pay for everyone who works for an insurance company from the CEO to the janitor?"
The answer is ZERO!!
Insurance companies are a big F*****G waste of money that could be used to provide dignified care for all Americans, provide quality care for our elderly, and ensure that children aren't relegated to poverty.
What the media needs to ask again and again, is why republicans hate the country they pretend to love. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, so they are destroying us from within.

[littlemissmartypants]

23. Wouldn't the

... money that goes to pay for everyone who works for an insurance company from the CEO to the janitor...

Be considered salaries or payroll expenses?

I don't disagree that insurance companies are a big money suck, though.

[LT Barclay]

39. I just mean those salaries and payroll expenses are unnecessary costs. They do nothing to help.

They are there to deny care and make a profit. If insurance companies were not there, every dollar that paid for the CEO, the building, the electricity to run the building, the cleaning staff, the infrastructure, etc., every last penny could be used to provide real care for real people.

[littlemissmartypants]

40. Got it. Thanks for the reply. ❤

[lostnfound]

47. The tragedy includes 100 years of hard-fought medical advances utterly wasted

For decades, researchers, doctors, patients, and biomedical engineers fought to understand and treat heart attack victims, and can now provide life-saving treatments and technology so that PEOPLE DON’T HAVE TO DIE.

All of that knowledge and investment went for nought, in this particular case, because of very poor choices in 2021 by society at large.

[Ziggysmom]

53. Would be nice if the dead Alabama man's family could sue the unvaccinated patients taking

up the ICU beds for contributing to his death! I know it won't happen, but..........

[lambchopp59]

54. Nauseatingly refreshing honesty

"Cuz A'hm jest too darn hard headed".