Libertarians?

[DonCoquixote]

I based this op because I saw Epic Beard man on TYT lionize Gary Johnson. Granted, Gary J is in his moment, as Colorado is about to legalize Cannabis, but then Epic Beard Man kept lionizing him, asking "why could you not be a Democratic candidate? Gary then went on to say he would ban income Tax and all other regulations. Epic Beard man did not say one word, asking him what such a world would be like.

Here is the problem I have with these folks: Their Iran policy is nice, their free speech policy is great, but when they talk about taking regulations and taxes away from corporations, how can they NOT see that these corporations would run amok? Do we want to see a world where the Romneys and Koches would be above the law, and feel free to poison and attack anyone they wanted,any way they wanted?

If you are a libertarian, talk me down. What will keep the corporations from going berserk?

[oldhippydude]

1. that has always been my problem with them... neolibralism

the faith that market forces are self correcting... when thats plainly the attitude, that has us in the situation we are in..

[Jim Engle]

2. I am an independant...

or more so a libertarian. I've voted for both R's and D's. The war on drugs is stupid. Let's legalize and tax it.

[Paulie]

3. Who are you voting for in this election?

L

[Jim Engle]

4. Gary Johnson. n/t

[Kennah]

6. So you're a RW Libertarian? Embrace Ayn Rand and all?

[Heidi]

8. Why aren't you supporting the Democratic nominee?

From DU's Terms of Service:

But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where were a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative).
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

[DevonRex]

9. You had to read our terms of service and agree to them

when you joined. In order to be here you have to vote for Democrats. Only Democrats.

I'm sure you can find another message board to suit your needs.

[dionysus]

24. TOS means squat.... 3-3 to let the dude stay.

[Iris]

29. Um, yes, actually TOS do mean something here.

That particular TOS was written a couple of presidential elections back b/c people wanted to come to a place where the Democratic candidate would be supported.

[dionysus]

30. maybe i was wrong, poster was TSed

[DevonRex]

31. Yeah, I alerted on the jury results.

Later on Skinner PPRed the guy.

Still doesn't say much about that jury, though eh?

[Iris]

22. So, tax drugs. Any other taxes?

[Scootaloo]

7. And while doing that, let's feed granny to the pigs

And sell the US constitution to the highest bidder. Ahhh, libertarianism, that's some good shit.

[HughBeaumont]

13. Uhhhhhhhhhhh . . . .

. . . is your single issue of drug legalization worth baking in a shitcake that sacrifices the middle/working/poor? I've actually heard libertarians say they want to abolish the minimum wage, actually stating it should be the employers right to pay what they want, be it 4, 3, even 2 dollars an hour.

I mean, it's bad enough that even left-leaning Libertarians like Cenk seem to be on some serious barbituates re: Gary Johnson. Economically, Gary Johnson's a Fair Taxer (Neal Boortz idea and a favorite of idle rich conservatives), a zero-sum Free Trader (i.e., the Bewsh-era offshoring model, which ALL regressive wingnuts and corporate executives lurve), a Voucher champion for schools and medicare (SUPER wingnuttery), a deregulator (Let Big Biznezz run WILD), wants to abolish the IRS (Paulbot stupidity) and wants to defund/eliminate social programs (or, as conservaturds put it, "entitlements&quot .

He's also a pro-lifer, is anti-universal health care and even hates the insurer-friendly "Obamacare".

"Progressive", Cenk? Did he even look at Johnson's platform? This is all verbatim from his site. I think ending the military interventions, ending the TSA/spying on citizens lunacy, pro-marriage equality and ending the drug war (not so much because he's pro-peace, pro-liberty, pro-gay or pro-pot, but more because he's an anti-federal-government-getting-involved-in-ANYthing states rights guy) are just about the only progressive initiatives on his board. Everything else is wingnut crapola, especially his economic plan.

[Honeycombe8]

15. Why are you posting in a progressive Democratic Party forum? Why aren't you on freerepublic.com? nt

[Kennah]

5. I'm a libertarian, but I'm a left wing libertarian.

The uppercase Libertarians, as in Libertarian Party, are right wing libertarians.

Some people, and I suspect most here in DU, consider left wing libertarians to be progressives. I agree with them.

Sorry, I was feeling pedantic.

[DonCoquixote]

10. left vs right

well, problem is, when Gary Johnson says he wants to get rid of income taxes and all regulations, yet wants us out of iraq, it gets hard to define left or right./..what is a left wing versus a right wing libertraian anyway, and where does GJ fit in?

[MicaelS]

11. Left-libertarianism vs Right-libertarianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism

Right-libertarianism

Right-libertarianism names several related libertarian political philosophies which support private ownership of land and other natural resources, as opposed to ownership by society as a whole or owing payment to society for private appropriation. The term is typically used to differentiate privatist forms of libertarianism from left-libertarianism; which generally supports societal ownership of resources, economic democracy, and egalitarianism.

Left-libertarianism

Most left-libertarians in this sense are anarchists, and frequently claim to reject the concept of self-ownership, at least when it is understood to underwrite capitalism, along with private ownership of the means of production and absentee ownership of private property, in favor of alternative rights of possession and stewardship which are understood as protecting personal autonomy while rejecting putative rights which they see as permitting the economic elite to control the lives of others. They support rights to personal property and the rights of occupancy over one’s dwelling, but reject commercial propertarianism and some do not consider the re-appropriation of such wealth to be an act of theft but rather an act of liberation (see individual reclamation). Many reject arrangements that allow for hierarchy, kyriarchy, or begrudgingly consensual subordination. Similarly, some reject the non-aggression principle to the extent that it is used by right-libertarians to treat assaults on private property as assaults on individual liberty.

According to libertarian scholar Sheldon Richman:

Left-libertarians favor worker solidarity vis-à-vis bosses, support poor people’s squatting on government or abandoned property, and prefer that corporate privileges be repealed before the regulatory restrictions on how those privileges may be exercised. They see Walmart as a symbol of corporate favoritism—supported by highway subsidies and eminent domain—view the fictive personhood of the limited-liability corporation with suspicion, and doubt that Third World sweatshops would be the “best alternative” in the absence of government manipulation. Left-libertarians tend to eschew electoral politics, having little confidence in strategies that work through the government. They prefer to develop alternative institutions and methods of working around the state.

[Kennah]

17. I think GJ is clearly a RW libertarian, that's why I'm voting for Obama

[Honeycombe8]

16. Libertarianism is on the right, to my understanding. They DON'T BELIEVE IN GOVT.

That is close to the tea party.

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. You're talking about people who fap to Atlas Shrugged.

A return to the glorious Gilded Age of unbridled capitalism is just what they want. They're immature fucktards who think that taxation and regulation are coercive stratjackets for poor, put-upon entrepreneurs and capitalists who are the creal creators of wealth and innovation and that government is an oppressive menace and at best a necessary evil that should be as minimal as possible. These are the people who thought that the banks and financial institutions could be trusted to self-regulate, after all (and see how that turned out).

[Panasonic]

14. Well written!

My friend, that's exactly what the real SJ would have said.

(big fan of Transmetropolitan, and wishes there were more!)

[DonCoquixote]

18. So in other words

do the leftist sides of libertarian doctrine get outweighed by the right? I would say they do, because if government was not there, the Koches would hire mercenaries in a heartbeat, just like they do in Latin America.

[Spider Jerusalem]

21. You're not talking about small L "libertarians" here.

You're talking about capital L "Libertarians", as in the US "Libertarian" party. Those people are almost uniformly Ayn Rand worshipping, self-styled "anarcho-capitalists". There is no "leftist" side of Libertarian doctrine, anyway; they are not left-wing, or, strictly speaking, right-wing (except in economic terms where they believe in the absolute supremacy of the right to private property and laissez-faire). They are essentially anarchists (or at least minarchists) who would do away with the whole apparatus of government if possible apart from a small military for self-defence. Libertarian economics favours privatisation of all the essential functions of government including emergency services; in abolishing health and safety regulations and environmental standards, the right to collective bargaining, laws on minimum wage, maximum hours, and child labour, and a lot of other unpleasant and deeply questionable stuff besides. We're talking about people who frequently style themselves as "classical liberals" who wouldn't grasp the idea of the social contract if John Locke showed up and beat them over the head with it.

See here: http://world.std.com/~mhuben/faq.html#what

[DonCoquixote]

23. OK, so

based on the info given, where would you put Gary Johnson?

[Spider Jerusalem]

26. I'd never vote for him.

He wants to cut Social Security and Medicare and eliminate the IRS and replace progressive income tax with a flat consumption tax. Among other things. That right there is enough to ensure he'd never get my vote, though.

[RomneyLies]

19. I was once enamored of the Libertarian party

took me about two minutes to realize they are crazier than your average Republican.

[DonCoquixote]

20. btw, thanks to all, and

here is the interview that started this:

http://current.com/shows/the-young-turks/episodes/2012-10-19

What freaks me out is, Epic Beard Guy really seems to be kissing GJ's ass, a trait the TYT is not known for.

[LP2K12]

25. There's just so many of us...

I'm a Libertarian Democrat. Voting for Obama (again). I differ with most Libertarians on the fact that I agree with you that corporations must be regulated.

I guess I'm not the best person to answer their views, haha.

Ideology

Libertarian Democrats support the majority of positions of the Democratic Party. However they do not necessarily share identical viewpoints across the political spectrum; that is, they are more likely to support individual and personal freedoms. In general they support tax cuts, Second Amendment rights, same-sex marriage, the decriminalization of marijuana and a non-interventionist foreign policy. They are more likely to oppose deficit spending, protectionism, subsidies (especially to corporations) race-based affirmative action and many regulations on small businesses.

They staunchly support civil liberties and agree with the national party's stances on civil rights, separation of church and state, and habeas corpus for unlawful combatants; they oppose indefinite detention without trial or charge, the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, the USA PATRIOT Act, warrantless wiretapping, the War on Drugs, bans on gambling, and prohibition of prostitution. While maintaining a relatively libertarian ideology they differ with the Libertarian Party on issues such as consumer protection, health care reform, worker and union's rights, anti-trust laws and the overall amount of government involvement in the economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Democrat

[tarheelsunc]

27. I pretty much agree with them on social issues. But economically, they're to the right of the GOP.

I don't understand this belief that the government shouldn't be involved in the economy. Laissez-faire capitalism always leads to the people at the top having all or most of the wealth, and people at the bottom having next to nothing. I don't know what country wants to effectively starve its poorest citizens.

[ismnotwasm]

28. The stance on deregulation is scary

I used to argue with my Libertarian brother. He said free market forces would take care of any need for regulation, in other words, if the competition sells a better, safer product, the competition would come out the winner. He didn't have an answer for things like universally safe water, or poor people who would be forced to buy inferior, dangerous products. he said enough laws would be in place to prevent corruption and we knowhow well that works. I thought it a scary simplistic ideology and still do, although parts of social libertarianism would probably work well.

It is in our society now in areas such as privately owned toll roads. The roads are well maintained from what I understand, just like we have a little socialism in certain areas of medicine and social welfare. (Not enough socialism, or not funded well enough however)