Why the French are so upset.

[speak easy]

Last edited Sun Sep 19, 2021, 08:41 AM - Edit history (1)

It was not just subs. On August 30, France and Australia held a ministerial meeting to establish a strategic defense partnership.

INAUGURAL AUSTRALIA-FRANCE 2+2 MINISTERIAL CONSULTATIONS 30 AUGUST 2021 JOINT STATEMENT

JEAN-YVES LE DRIAN, MINISTER FOR EUROPE AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF FRANCE FLORENCE PARLY, MINISTER FOR THE ARMED FORCES OF FRANCE SENATOR THE HON MARISE PAYNE, MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN OF AUSTRALIA THE HON PETER DUTTON MP, MINISTER FOR DEFENCE OF AUSTRALIA

21 – BOTH SIDES COMMITTED TO DEEPEN DEFENCE INDUSTRY COOPERATION AND ENHANCE THEIR CAPABILITY EDGE IN THE REGION. MINISTERS UNDERLINED THE IMPORTANCE OF THE FUTURE SUBMARINE PROGRAM. THEY AGREED TO STRENGTHEN MILITARY SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH COOPERATION THROUGH A STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN THE DEFENCE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY GROUP AND THE DIRECTORATE GENERAL FOR ARMAMENTS.

https://alexpresents.com/2021/09/17/france-recalls-its-ambassadors-to-us-and-australia-in-submarine-deal-backlash-worldnews/

That defense alliance was founded the French submarine program. At the time that joint statement was made, Washington, London, and Australia were in to final stages of torpedoing the order for French subs.

At the very least, the Australians should have postponed their ministerial meeting with the French.

[Crazyleftie]

1. not true

it was all about the money...........

[speak easy]

2. nonsense

On the August 30, Australian ministers told/gave every impression that the submarine program was going ahead. Lying through their teeth.

[BeyondGeography]

3. It's not even that much money

An 8 billion euro net loss to France when all is said and done.

IOW, you’re wrong.

There’s a chat about that and the broader issues here in case you’re interested:

[Hortensis]

8. But almost nothing's all about money for nations. In this case,

sure, reportedly loss of this huge contract is big enough to affect the French economy, with a whole network of businesses adversely affected and tax revenue lost. Many people will hurt.

But it's also about France's role in world affairs and what happened when tRump mostly abandoned our leadership of many nations in controlling China's increasing aggression. This left a vacuum and caused serious new security concerns for many nations, over 40 bordering the Pacific alone, but including all the others also, including France.

France set out to play a greater role among our allies in the Pacific, and elsewhere, but their attitude toward containment of China's hegemonic ambitions is reportedly more accommodating and conciiatory than the U.S.'s. I doubt the nations most immediately threatened by, and being forced into undesired dependence on, China are unhappy with a stronger stance, certainly not Australia.

And, back to money, it's going to be extremely costly to keep China from gaining control of the oceans from east Africa to the Americas' Pacific waters, to include France's interests in that region, and eventually becoming the planet's major superpower. There'll be lots of marine contracts alone.

[Crazyleftie]

18. It IS all about the money

Like the US France has it's own military industrial complex. This contract would have meant possible future contracts as well as maintaining political support for Macron by the same.

[Tetrachloride]

4. Issues and allegations list

1. nuclear vs diesel range
2. nuclear vs diesel silence
3. cost and cost overruns
4. French vacation vs Australia sense of timelines
5. Contract deadlines / contract milestones
6. French verbal assurances of the past
7. Australian assurances of August
8. The USA and UK apparently let Australia be the lead in dealing with the French
9. Chinese naval power and territorial claims
10. Unknown decisions by President Biden

[speak easy]

5. 7. Is not an allegation.

[Jedi Guy]

6. I think #9 was the biggie, personally.

I'm sure Biden would rather not have irked the French, but he's playing the long geopolitical game here. China is clearly setting up to be able to close the door in the South China Sea, and the Aussies having the best possible sub force is important in countering that.

Given that the Chinese are developing unmanned underwater vehicles, the stealth advantage of nuclear over diesel is kind of a big deal.

[speak easy]

7. The Australians should have postponed their ministerial meeting with the French

... end of story.

[Jedi Guy]

11. I'm not saying it couldn't have been handled better, because it could have.

But there are certainly various valid reasons for what happened. I think France is being a wee bit overdramatic, but that's just me.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

9. Perhaps the Aukus deal is seen as weakening the EU.

Not just France, but the entire EU would benefit from a strategic defense partnership. Loss of that would appear to add to France's furor.

I'm not comprehending why US+UK+AU could not form a strategic partnership but with AU still buying hardware from France.

But, I'm sure there's hundreds of complex military, political and economic reasons for how this came down and much of it will never be revealed.

KY......... ........

[Ninga]

10. AUS had many grievances with the French early on.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-26/defence-urges-submarine-designs-be-kept-safe-after-india-leak/7787394

https://www.afr.com/companies/manufacturing/coalition-plans-nuclearpowered-submarine-fleet-over-long-term-20160429-goieal

Huge cost over runs
“At last count, the Barracudas were going to cost around 90 billion Australian dollars (€56 billion). And that's before the government factored in the cost of maintenance — which in November 2019, the department of defense told a Senate committee would set Canberra back a further 145 billion Australian dollars (€90.1 billion) over the life of the subs.”

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/refit-of-ageing-submarine-fleet-should-have-been-locked-in-six-years-ago-labor-20210611-p58069.html

France defaulted

“By 2020, Naval Group had revised the 90 percent local input figure down to 60 percent. By 2021, the French firm was pushing back against even that, saying Australian industry wasn't up to scratch.”

https://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/media/future-submarine-program

Lastly, AUS sub fleet due to age out by 2026 and France could not deliver their first sub until 2035.
Do the math.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

12. Analysis I read is that French want cooperation AND their OWN independent Pacific policy. . . . nt

[underpants]

13. Do Australian subs travel upside down?

That my friends is and Australian submarine joke!!!!

[speak easy]

14. ... that's why they ain't getting nukes

don't wanna blow up the sea bed

[underpants]

15. Then I don't even want to know how the toilets work

Reverse water spin or not.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

16. No, they're spaceships, traveling above the atmosphere. nt

[Tetrachloride]

17. Wiki page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AUKUS