Is it me, or are a huge number of IT jobs being outsourced to India?

[milestogo]

First it was the H1-B visas. Companies who supposedly couldn't find an american worker with a given skillset were allowed to bring over foreign workers. Many were in the Information Technology field, and many of the workers were from India. Most were developers.

Some American companies didn't even bother recruiting at the best American Schools. They went directly to Indian IT colleges to recruit people with no experience at all for American IT jobs.

Over the years, its been more and more of the call center helpdesks. If you can talk to someone whose English is comprehensible, you're pretty lucky, because a lot of those jobs have gone to the Philippines, Mexico, Ecuador, and India.

And now that Covid has proved the whole world can work from anywhere, more companies are laying off their onsite IT workers, including highly paid network engineers, and outsourcing that work to India. It probably saves a ton of money.

I'm not sure I would tell a young person to go into IT. They may not be able to find a decent job in the US.

[zeusdogmom]

1. The IT outsourcing has been going on for at least a decade

Maybe even 2 decades

[TreasonousBastard]

14. Well over 20 years ago a company I was working with went to India for IT support...

and it didn't work well.

Communication with them was a problem, and they often ended up spending time on the wrong thing.

Around that time I was talking to a top Sony IT guy and he was telling me that a discount programming outfit (don't remember what country) finished a job in record time. When he played with it, certain keystrokes blew it up. No error checking or fixing routines. When he complained, he was told "Your problem-- good operators don't make those mistakes".

I assume things are better now, and things like X-Ray analyses and other health lab stuff is farmed out to India with decent results, but a lot of that isn't so much because it's cheaper but because that helps get immediate responses 24 hours when local techs are not available. Indians aren't stupid, and know if they have good results they can raise their prices

[Casady1]

2. IT jobs have been outsourced

to India for a long time. The hottest job is still IT security. It is still worthwhile going into IT. I am in high tech.

[TheBlackAdder]

98. If I recall correctly, decades ago the US propped them up as they had no other tangible tech.

.

The US aided in developing an IT infrastructure with them, aiding in the training and guidance.

Many companies then started to ship off jobs to them. Call centers were one of the first to go.


Starting 6-7 years ago, the next areas of growth are in Poland and other Eastern EU countries.

.

[OnDoutside]

3. Where have you been for the last two decades !

😬

[milestogo]

15. I've been in IT

Snark unnecessary.

[OnDoutside]

23. It wasn't a snark, seriously this has been ongoing, especially by big US multinationals.

[milestogo]

26. And I mentioned it in my OP, so no need to act like I was unaware.

[MerryHolidays]

35. Why on September 21, 2021 are you posting this?

You actually do seem unaware that this "issue" has been going on for awhile. It does occur to me that you unaware of things when you post this out of the blue in late 2021.

[Treefrog]

146. Is there a statute of limitations on posts?

Wow, just wow!

[SheltieLover]

4. Had a friend who worked at Motorola in IT, AZ, I believe

Some 15 years ago.

It was like a big family there at work she'd told me.

Until the Indians began arriving.

Employees were forced to teach them their jobs, knowing they would eventually be unemployed.

Not sure why this is legal.

[hedda_foil]

12. And then Motorola rolled over and died.

[SheltieLover]

43. Serves them right for the way they treated their employees, imo

[MerryHolidays]

38. "Until the Indians began arriving" .... wow, just wow. N/t

[SheltieLover]

45. Well...

There was a lot of harassment by the newcomers, making fun of the Americans who were forced to teach the Indians their jobs, the way the story was told to me.

I didn't want to get into all that because it is irrelevant, but since you commented, I felt obliged to explain.

[MerryHolidays]

46. In all the posts on this thread, let's do a gedacht/thought experiment...

replace "Indian" with "blacks" or "African-Americans"...how would DUer's sound then?

If this were Reddit or 4Chan, perhaps...but DU? Good heavens. Perhaps I need to move on if this is acceptable.

[SheltieLover]

47. No. These were foreigners brought here by a corporation

To take American's jobs.

Not faulting the immigrants.

It is the actions of the corporations that is unsettling to me and to the Americans who were forced to train the newcomers, while putting up with the verbal abuse.

Please do not attempt to project racism onto what I have said as that is not my intention.

[MerryHolidays]

48. You do understand that companies headquartered in the US

have subsidiaries all over the world, right? What exactly is wrong with multi-national companies hiring folks in other countries?

There is no attempt to inject "racism" in your words...they speak for themselves, as do mine. My point is that it is quite stunning that we are having any kind of discussion like this on DU.

[SheltieLover]

49. You think it is acceptable for blood sucking multi nationals to outsource?

I don't.

End of story.

[MerryHolidays]

51. "Multi national" is the operative word

Do you REALLY think, for example, that Microsoft is an "American" company? If so, wow....just, wow.

[SheltieLover]

52. No kidding. "Wow! Just Wow!

Have a nice day, Merry.

[MerryHolidays]

53. Have a nice day too, SheltieLover....the point is that

it is INCREDIBLE to me that this thread is focusing on ethnicity as to a persons' value.

I know you well enough that's not where you're at, but I do hope all other DUers reflect VERY carefully as to what is being said in this thread.

Peace and love, and MerryHolidays out.

[Demsrule86]

72. No it is not. It is focused on how rampant and unfair outsourcing is to American workers...

[Voltaire2]

83. A global company isn't outsourcing anything

unless it hires people from off-planet.

[Demsrule86]

84. Globalism is why we are losing the middle class. It is our country, we can fix this and should.

[MerryHolidays]

86. So, you want multinationals like Microsoft, Coca-Cola, etc etc

To shut up shop everywhere and just focus on the US of A? What is your limit to "globalism"?

[Voltaire2]

93. There is a solution but it isn't nationalism.

Trade barriers and tariffs won’t do it. What will do it is one global economy with one set of rules for how it operates.

[whathehell]

145. Thank you..You've heard of H1B Visas?

. There is, or was, a law stating that foreign nationals could not be hired for a job that an American citizen could do..The HB1 Visa law was enacted to fill those "exceptional" jobs that the employer could find no eligible American for..It was supposed to be somewhat " rate_, but it quickly became abused for nothing more than cheap labor.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

68. At least

Right wingers are direct with their racism.

[whathehell]

129. Um, the key word you're missing is "American"

The point of contention here is giving American jobs to foreign nationals, so you see it's NOT interchangeable with "African- Americans", since they are Americans. Were people here complaining of being replaced by Americans of Indian descent instead of Indian nationals, it would be a different story.

[MerryHolidays]

132. No...the issue is that you and others are slamming Indians, whether Indian citizens or otherwise

(I guess) because of their accents. You (and others) are using ethnicity as a proxy of intelligibility. Perhaps you would like to discuss that with Sunder Pichai and Satya Nadella, who both were born and spent several years in India? Are they unintelligible?

The absurdity of this discussion becomes all the more real when many of the companies that this "thread" (GASP!!!!) accuse of hiring these so-called unintelligible Indians is that they are multi-national companies that, as the name indicates, operate around the world.

I am very curious why folks on this newfound "thread" raise no issues about the Republic of Ireland which is siphoning HUGE amounts of tax money from the US of A. That's AT LEAST as big an issue.

[whathehell]

137. Lol..You are SO off the mark it's funny!

You so WANT to believe it's about "slamming" Indians, which is funny because you have NO idea how many South Asians are in my familial and social circles. I'd.gurss it's a simpler, more familiar issue for you than labor and those HB I visa things you've never heard of. Have a nice one.

[MerryHolidays]

140. Your absurdity has no bounds. How do you treat your "South Asian" family/"social circle" members?

Do you give them English lessons too?

I am so glad you know me so well.

Bwahahahahaha!

Have a nice one too. Have fun watching CC BritBox....

[whathehell]

142. Don:t tell me -- 'South Asian' is ANOTHER term you've never heard?

Check with our UK friends, dear..You really need to get out more.

[Treefrog]

147. Lol.

[obamanut2012]

90. "Until the Indians began arriving"

Oh boy.

Maybe snark about the companies, or laws that allow that, not "the Indians."

[RainCaster]

5. It's all of high tech that is doing this

HP, Dell, Samsung, Intel, Microsoft, WD, Oracle, and on it goes. They all have development centers in India, and many also have them in China.

[OnDoutside]

24. And Pharma.

[totodeinhere]

6. There are plenty of unfilled American jobs in IT right how.

Remember that the foreign person that you might get when you call a support line is holding down a low paying entry level job. But there are plenty of good jobs in IT but you do need to have the qualifications, or enter into a training program or have college or trade school training in the field.

[milestogo]

8. A lot of the unfilled IT jobs are entry level.

They want to pay someone $13 an hour, when Walmart and Target are paying $15 to people with no IT degree.

That foreign person often doesn't speak English clearly enough to be of much help. That's what gripes me.

[totodeinhere]

32. Sure, there are entry level jobs but there are plenty of better paying jobs too.

And a lot of those jobs at Walmart and other places are dead end jobs. Whereas a job in Tech might allow for more opportunities.

I agree with you on the foreign person. If you are calling for tech support then it might be complicated and you need to have someone you can understand.

[Dave says]

65. $13 an hour for entry level?

That doesn’t sound right. A software developer right out of college can make $50-$60k a year.

[milestogo]

66. Mostly helpdesk support and jobs involving hardware.

Geek squad types. Definitely not software developers.

[Demsrule86]

74. And those sort of jobs are no better than Walmart jobs.

[Dave says]

79. That clarifies, thanks

IT roles change as the methods and technologies change. Anyone in an IT career needs to take active steps to avoid obsolescence. Beside in-house/offshore/H1B cost differentials, we hear of this or that 20+ career man or woman being laid off. I don’t know technology to venture examples, but it seems IT technologies change almost completely every 3 to 4 years.

You don’t have that with accounting. There, the risk is computer software replacing the need for human beings. The replaced ought to share in the value created by software, but that does not happen. Senior managers and capitalists gobble it all up, leaving people out on the streets looking for different careers.

Joseph Schumpeter’s “creative destruction”, I guess. IT morphing more quickly than most other professions. But morph is the rule.

[Silent3]

7. I have no good sense of whether the outsourcing is going up or going down

It works well for some projects, but I've seen some outsourcing disasters too. Judging from the software engineers I work with, the ones from India with the most talent come here to work.

[milestogo]

11. I never had a problem with the developers

but its not a communication-intensive discipline.

The network engineers from India are in India, and they are just not as good.

[MerryHolidays]

60. My heavens....is this DU? n/t

[Demsrule86]

71. Do you know what it is liked to lose a job to foreign competition? Right now companies that

outsource jobs get a tax break. It sucks. And it is not one-sided either. I had friends from HP who were willing to go to India in order to save their jobs...but they were received with death threats and hostility. During the 90's and early 2000's there were quotas...six Americans let go for every foreign worker let go. And often they are required in order to receive any unemployment benefits from the company to train their successors...it really is a horrible situation. Consider that not one phone or TV is made in this country anymore. And it won't end with manufacturing. Already accounting jobs, call centers, banking job and sales jobs are being outsourced.

[MerryHolidays]

85. Actually, I very much do

I suppose your anger is also directed at Ireland, and not just India? All of the major tech companies have some of their biggest operations in the Republic of Ireland. Why is that in a country that's around 5 million in population? Tax loopholes through the US-Irish bilateral tax treaties.

It would be nice to discuss Ireland, in addition to India, Jamaica (!), and China, if that is the focus of the discussion. It would be nice also to have that tax money back in the US of A.

And many of these companies operate around the world. Do you suggest that they hire Americans all over the world?

[Lancero]

135. Then hate the company for their actions, rather that use them to justify racism.

[OnDoutside]

22. 20 years ago, they were terrible on Y2K projects, but I'm working with Indian US based guys now

and they're excellent, so for me it just took time for them to get over to the US and Europe, to become acquainted with the requirements. On the other side of it, an American friend of mine contracted at a major US pharma company based in Philly, who outsourced their finance and IT department to India.

[Amishman]

91. From what I'm hearing and seeing, it's coming back with a vengeance

I work in software development; used to do lots of contract jobs now settled in as a lead BA.

There's little willingness to develop talent internally as this means paying someone while they learn. Instead it's a frantic scramble every time they need to backfill a position or add staff.

Since this seems to be a very widely held attitude, it means industry wide the talent pool doesn't grow like it should.

An absurd example of this was at a former employer of mine. They had a stupidly complex internally developed system. The main admin left, and the managers and HR tried making a requirement for the replacement that the new person have 5+ years experience with that system. Took forever for myself and others to make them understand that it's proprietary - no other company has it or uses it and it is literally impossible to find someone external who can just come in and take over.

[fescuerescue]

96. It is

Companies figure that if you can work from home, you can work from India.

[Amishman]

97. and they'll get burned by this the way they did a decade ago

Time zone differences, culture differences, and especially fake credentials are extremely common with offshored development teams. I've run into quite a few offshore resources who couldn't begin to do the basics of their job, let alone match up to the impressive skillset claimed by their resume. (I've seen this as well with H1B workers who've come over here too).

Works a little better for support / customer service jobs, but then you get accent and language barrier issues rising to the forefront.

The one area that does seem to work very well offshored is QA testing.

[Silent3]

104. I remember seeing things like demands for 5 years experience...

…in technologies that had only been around for 2-3 years.

[Amishman]

107. yup, seen that too

both as incompetence by the hiring manager and HR, and also as an intentional blocker when a real candidate is not wanted (IE they have someone in mind internally or want to bring in an H1B).

[DickKessler]

9. Yeah this has been happening for a long time.

[Metaphorical]

10. Actually, we may be at a tipping point

A huge amount of money has been spent in Hyderabad, to the extent that Indian IT workers are now making incomes roughly comparable to American programmers. This has had the effect of pricing Indian IT workers out of the market, and is forcing a lot of companies in the US to increasingly depend upon AI-based solutions, one reason that AI spending has skyrocketed. This has also gutted the IT infrastructure of many companies in the US, because all of that outsourcing and cost-cutting by Harvard MBA managers ended up wiping out the mid-tier programmers that typically provide a competitive advantage in a company. As senior IT people retire, there's no one replacing them. This will likely all end badly.

[48656c6c6f20]

13. I don't know.

Recently laid off from a job that outsourced. Got a new one at a very increased salary. So yes maybe I don't know? The IT hiring market kind of reminds me of the 90s IT boom. I want money and I get what I ask for no matter how ridiculous.

[PoliticAverse]

16. Some people will learn that if you can convince your company you can work from home...

it may end up an outsourced home your job ends up at.

[Shermann]

17. More than 10% of Indians speak English

That's a huge low-cost resource to be exploited for helpdesk work.

The language barrier is much higher in China.

[milestogo]

19. It may be higher than that, but they don't speak it without a heavy accent.

And its very frustrating to tell someone your name and spell it out 3 times and they say you aren't in the system when you know that you are.

[paleotn]

18. That's been going on for years....

but, like many technical specialties in the US, jobs still go unfilled. Help desk jobs usually pay crap, but there's a ton of higher skilled IT slots that are a struggle to fill with qualified applicants. And it's not just IT. Engineering and other technical specialties requiring a 4 year degree or less are tough to fill. From personal experience, I've seen manufacturers having to search region and nation wide just for maintenance technicians. In my mind, outsourcing isn't the problem. The real problem is an American education system that isn't in sync with the US economy. Hasn't been for decades now.

[Mopar151]

28. A system of "qualification" that over-emphasizes degrees

Recruiters who do not know beans about the real job, write a description that may not even spell the name of the trade or skill correctly! I learned to not do keyword searches for "Machinist", and have been hired as a "Machinest". Did'nt work out - the guy they wanted me to replace was a Grand Wizard of Giant Mill Rolls, and underpaid at double whatever they were paying him! Did'nt work out for the next 3 guys they hired, either.....

[hurple]

20. This is not new

I was "downsized" with my IT developer position moving to India 4 years ago.

Now I do info-sec analysis for the state and I couldn't be happier. That last job was toxic. This new job has me front and center for election security (among other things).

And my pay is $20,000 more per year.

Unfortunately, I won't be vested in my new pension until I hit 62, though. I was planning to retire from the previous job at 58.

[MerryHolidays]

21. This is quite a remarkable thread for DU: making fun of accents etc.

Are you kidding me? Is this what we've become?

I am all in favor of making sure jobs go to folks based in the US, but laughing at someone's accent or suggesting that "Indians" are not good programmers, both of which are inherent in some of the comments in this thread, is TRULY remarkable.

[milestogo]

25. Who's laughing?

You call a helpdesk asking for help. When you can't understand the person on the other end and they can't understand you, there is nothing funny about it.

It's no secret that corporations like to do things on the cheap. So if they can get someone who says they're qualified at a much lower rate, you do it. But it doesn't take long for it to become obvious if someone is qualified or not. And that's what you judge.

[MerryHolidays]

29. I have NEVER had that experience. Do you really think any international company

would do that? Not sure what companies you're dealing with, but I haven't had this experience. I've spoken to TONS of folks in India and the Phillipines and, not once, has the problem been associated with "accents".

For goodness sake, please don't mock folks' accents. You do get the fact that Sunder Pachai (Google) and Satya Nadella (Microsoft) are from India, right? Perhaps you have problems with their accents too?

[whathehell]

40. I've had that experience many times with general call center workers

frequently having heavy accents, and yes, comprehension IS a relevant issue.

[XanaDUer2]

55. We've had similar experiences. Nt

[phylny]

58. I can always tell when it's someone from outside the U.S.

when they say, “I can help you with this one.”

It’s just a phrase we would not use here.

[XanaDUer2]

61. My SO is very tech savvy

so things have to be really, really bad for him to call. It does get frustrating. We feel for the worker just earning a living like anyone else, but it does seem like they're following a script that has to be followed, point by point. It makes him crazy.

Usually, he's bumped up to the next level of tech support.

[MerryHolidays]

59. You do get that these companies will lose business

if their customer service is not good...?

[whathehell]

63. You do get that if that was the case

it wouldn't be the ongoing problem it's been for decades?

[MerryHolidays]

64. For WHOM?

Because someone is Indian, or Chinese, or Filipino that that's bad? Are you joking?

[CrackityJones75]

73. Why are you being so thick about this?

Yes it has been a problem for a LONG TIME. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that when people call for help, and get someone that they cannot understand that that is a problem. That isn’t racist. The number one priority for them is to be able to communicate with the person they are talking to. It isn’t fair to the worker (who often times it seems like is being exploited to begin with) and it is frustrating to the customer.

Stop trying to pain everyone as a racist and follow the actual conversation.

[MerryHolidays]

82. If it were such an issue, a company's customer service would fix it

Last edited Wed Sep 22, 2021, 07:07 AM - Edit history (1)

They risk losing customers if they don't. Are you so "thick", using your fascinating lingo, that you don't understand that? What do you not follow about that?

I chat/speak with customers service reps from ALL over the world for my cell phone service, credit cards, cable, internet, etc etc etc. If I cannot understand them (which hasn't happened to me in YEARS), I ask them to repeat or ask to speak to another agent. Is that such a big deal that you can't handle it?

Are you so "thick" that you can't do that instead of painting every person outside of America as unintelligible?

You do get these companies are MULTI-NATIONAL, right, and many of them operate around the world (e.g., cell phone companies like T-mobile, Amazon, credit card companies like Amex)? Or is that too "thick" for you too?

[CrackityJones75]

94. Wrong.

When we have companies that have near monopolies over certain industries there are no other alternatives to turn to. Take internet and cable services, for many there is only one option. Especially in rural areas.


Or healthcare where you must stay in network. And there is only one corporate owned hospital in your vicinity.

You are trying to pin racism on people here where it isn’t happening because you are refusing to look at what people are talking about. That’s wrong.

[whathehell]

111. THANK you!

Getting through to people can be so difficult.

[whathehell]

99. "For whom" WHAT?

Please speak in full sentences; It facilitates comprehension.

[MerryHolidays]

100. Feel free to read the thread! That too will aid your understanding.

No need for me to do it for you.

[whathehell]

110. Lol..Feel free to learn how to write intelligible posts

instead of expecting others on "the thread" to make sense of yours.

[Treefrog]

112. Lol.

Yes.

Funny thing, I love to watch BritBox, and all my family is British. But I frequently will put the CC option on because of all the regional accents. Am I racist against my family?

Oh dear me.

[MerryHolidays]

114. I haven't said a single word about "racism"...

The point is painting ethnicities with broad brushes, as if all Indians are unintelligible.

I am sure folks like Sunder Pachai and Satya Nadella think that's utter nonsense.

[Treefrog]

115. I see people make fun of southern accents all the time here.

I don’t remember you objecting to that, but perhaps I’ve missed it. No worries.

Carry on.

[MerryHolidays]

116. Thanks so much for allowing me to carry on!

I have no idea what you're talking about. Feel free to give examples since you seem omniscient.

And I too allow you to carry on!

[whathehell]

117. Lol

Even funnier is a reference to racism in an exchange that has nothing to do with race and everything to do with audible comprehension.

P.S. I love watching Britbox too, and I also use the CC captions. Again,
it's about intelligibility, not race.

[MerryHolidays]

118. You're the one making the racism claims, not me!

But if you would read this new concept called "threads", perhaps that would be obvious.

Saying every Indian is unintelligible is just shocking.

Have fun with Britbox if it makes you feel better! And since when is "Lol" good English, since you seem to have mastered the language?

[whathehell]

120. Lol..I wasn't even responding to you, I was responding to.Treefrog's post

Saying "every Indian is unintelligible" IS shocking -- The problem here is I never said it -- To confirm both of the above statements, you might want
to take your own advice and "read the thread".

[MerryHolidays]

122. I agree that is shocking! Glad you're reading the "thread "for a change!

Just check this "thread" to see what others have said.

Have fun with BritBox, with the irony of that being another remarkable aspect of this new thing called a "thread"!

Peace and love.

[whathehell]

126. You're funny!

Where are you comng from?.

As a DU member of over a decade, I think I DO know something about those "threads" you keep talking about.

[MerryHolidays]

127. "Comng from"... you don't seem to speak/write English very well!

Shall I slam you too?

I am glad it took you just a decade to discover "threads" which you raised.

Bwahahahaha!

[whathehell]

130. Lol!

Try again, honey.

[whathehell]

139. Lol..It's called "using the vernacular", dear

I'm amazed a linguistics scholar like yourself has yet to hear of it.

[MerryHolidays]

141. My luv, you seem to be the one to be the perfect English speaker

I am so glad your "familial members" and "social circle" of "South Asians" have you as a role-model.

[whathehell]

143. Do I?

So sorry if I can't say the same for you.

[Treefrog]

119. Exactly!

Thank you.

[whathehell]

121. Lol,!..Glad we cleared that up.

Wish we could explain it to a few others here!

[XanaDUer2]

124. Preach!

as a regular watcher of Brit shows (I'm an Anglophile), I *always* use CC.

[Treefrog]

128. Ha! I'm glad it's not just me!

My Irish aunt laughed herself silly when I told her but she understood completely!

[MerryHolidays]

113. That is a remarkably snarky response. Please learn to read threads

in their entirety. It will serve you well in the future.

And, yes, this is a "thread"! Welcome to 2021!

[Sympthsical]

78. Comcast and Amazon say hey

I'm not making fun of anyone by any means, but being able to understand someone at a call center and being understood by them has been an issue with large corporations for a long, long time. I've certainly encountered it, and it is absolutely enraging every time.

I had to have an issue with Amazon resolved about a month ago. They'd charged me $20 too much for a new headset I needed for work meetings. I went with the live online chat assistance. The person who showed up had a very Indian name. It was like shadow boxing. No matter what sentence I tossed out there to explain the issue, it just didn't land. Roughly 80% of the responses was just him copying and pasting canned responses that had nothing to do with anything instead of actually talking with me about the issue.

Eventually he caught on (I think). The person said he'd credit my account $20. Well, that never happened either. I did not want to go through all that again and just ate the cost.

If you've never experienced this stuff, you must be very lucky. There's a reason you're seeing all these responses. It's a very common problem. Hell, 30 Rock had a joke about it nearly 10 years ago. I'm paraphrasing the joke, but it goes, "We've shut down our operations in India and no longer have any call support at all. We're now providing the same level of service at zero the cost."

And related to upthread. I have a gaming buddy who works from home. The company consists of him in Austin, Texas, his boss/owner in New Jersey, and the IT workers in India. The entire company with the exception of my friend was outsourced to remote work in India. Something like 12 people in America lost their jobs.

People aren't all being racist about this stuff. They're speaking from experience.

[Treefrog]

131. Lol, now THAT is funny.

Have you tried talking to the “customer service” of any US air carrier lately?

[MerryHolidays]

134. Treefrog, I get it...

You don't like speaking to folks who aren't from the US of A, or at least from India. Are there other countries for which you have this phobia?

I am about 100% sure that I speak to at least as many call centers as you do, whether it is airlines, tech, credit/banking, telephony etc. I don't have ANY problems.

Perhaps you should get out more rather than watching close-captioned BritBox? Worst case, just ask to speak to another rep if you cannot understand the one you are talking (much like the Southern folks you mentioned in an earlier post in this "thread" that you didn't give any example of). It's really not that hard.

Don't paint all persons of a particular ethnicity or citizenry with a broad brush. There are TONS of folks from these countries who are MUCH smarter and more eloquent than you, I, or most folks could imagine.

That's the reality of 2021. Join the times.

[Treefrog]

136. Oh my.

[MerryHolidays]

138. I know...it's absurd what you're saying

You seem to excel at emojis and making reference to "hated Southern speaking people who are slammed on DU that I ignore that you give no example of."

Perhaps you can expand your world from BritBox so that you don't suffer these horrible customer service incidents that you claim are crippling life as we know it?

Bwahahahahaha...I look forward to your eloquence in emojis....

[Treefrog]

148. Numerous posters here have related their experiences with call center difficulties.

Are they all making it up? Nah. I haven’t seen anyone being racist.

The airlines I deal with almost exclusively are European, and I’ve never had a problem with Lufthansa, Aer Lingus, or BA. But I’ve read numerous threads here where posters have complained bitterly about the lack of customer service with US carriers. You are certainly very fortunate that you’ve never encountered these problems.

I don’t get your problem with emojis lol.

[Treefrog]

101. A friend of mine recently had that experience with Amazon.

I’ve never seen her lose her temper, but she had steam coming out of her ears trying to talk to the rep.

[Steelrolled]

57. I've worked for multinational companies and they certainly do that.

It's all about reducing expenses. The "silver lining" is that people would work a lot harder to fix things themselves, or ask for help from coworkers, because they didn't want the pain of a helpdesk call.

[Demsrule86]

75. Yes, ATT does it...they read from a script and one can barely understand them.

[zeusdogmom]

27. I don't think they were making fun of accents

Speaking with someone who speaks English with a heavy accent via the telephone can be quite difficult. It is amazing how much easier it is speaking with the same person face to face.

[Shermann]

42. Live chat is even better

A lot of those live chat centers are staffed in India. If it wasn't for the Indian names, you might not even know.

[milestogo]

30. The point of this post is that Americans are losing their jobs through no fault of their own.

Are you someone who avoids the automated self-checkout because it takes away a job? Well guess what, these jobs are being taken away from qualified American workers. The jobs are not awarded to others on the basis of merit or efficiency, but because the going rate is lower.

And yes, I have heard more complaints than I can count from employees who gave up calling the helpdesk because the person on the other end of the line could not communicate clearly in English.

Today I spoke with a manager whose company laid off 40 American networking professionals and replaced them with cheaper foreigners. She said they were not good at their jobs and there was not a thing she could do about it.

[MerryHolidays]

31. Your post is premised on denying folks jobs based on their "accent"

I have NO idea where you are going with this, but you really shouldn't be posting this nonsense on DU. If you truly believe that US jobs are being lost to "people with accents", please speak to your local government officials.

Where exactly are your "anti-accented"-based statistics? Do you think you have more insight hiring these folks than the companies that enlist them? if so, you are truly amazing!

[milestogo]

37. You are projecting something onto my post that isn't implied or explicit in what I wrote.

I think you may need a reading comprehension course.

[MerryHolidays]

39. Thanks for the ad hominem attack

Which, of course, doesn't answer anything.

Are you sure you are posting on DU?

[Demsrule86]

76. First of all call centers should be in this country providing jobs for Americans...ATT want us to

buy their phones and sign up for their crappy plans, don't they? The Mid West has been all but destroyed because of outsourcing. The only silver lining is Ohioans were still so angry at Romney the equity guy that they were never going to vote for him in 12. People literally died because of what he did. Now, we lost Lordstown Motors in Ohio (GM) and we are going to lose another GM plan and a Ford plant to outsourcing. It is disgusting.

[whathehell]

41. Exactly, thank you!

[treestar]

102. Philosophical question

do Americans have a greater right to jobs than others?

Do Americans benefit in any way (prices are cheaper when the labor is in China, etc.)

So the answer it to raise the non-Americans to equal competition in terms of what they will work for. Why are they so much cheaper for the companies?

There are also Americans whose products can be made at all in China and are too expensive to make in the US.

In Australia, there was someone with brains who had the idea that I saw on tags there - instead of "Made in China" it said "designed in Australia, made in China."

Anecdotal story - American girl designed her prom dress. On a tourist trip with her rather practical grandmother, grandmother had the idea that they travel to the mainland from their tourist destination in Hong Kong, gave someone the design, and had it made up there. The press was affordable, whereas it was not in the US.

Somehow, this can work out to everyone's benefit. It's short sighted to stop at the border and the nationality of the companies. We can't avoid globalism without perhaps worse disadvantages. Money does not have a nationality.

[AngryOldDem]

157. THIS, RIGHT HERE.

Often, the ROI on these workers is nil, and furthermore, those programmers who are left have to clean up all the mistakes that are made.

Outsourcing is a despicable scam.

[AngryOldDem]

156. It's not culture hate.

Both American and foreign workers are abused by outsourcing, from greedy companies to the “consulting” firms that all make a shit-ton of money trafficking in people who will do the same job for a fraction of what the IT market truly demands.

Outsourcing kills a competitive job market. Do not believe the bullshit that they can’t find U.S. workers for these jobs.

And sorry, if you are going to do customer service by phone, a thick accent does not help. Neither does calling yourself “Todd” or “Brittany.” I have had bad experiences with outsourced CS, but good ones too. All I want is my problem resolved. And if that is difficuit to accomplish, I‘m not going to be happy, and I know where the blame lies — not with the person on the other end of the line, but with the company that offshored the job, and the firm that gladly took it.

[Zeitghost]

33. Anyone who's overjoyed

to WFH from now on, take notice. This is the tip of the iceberg.

[Xolodno]

34. Think it really depends on the industry and what you do.

Where I'm at, every product line has IT managers and a handful of UAT people here in the states. Some on the H1-B visas....and in a few years become US citizens. Then we have those outsourced to India. So its a hybrid system.

A long time ago we had all our IT outsourced to India, good portion of accounting to Poland, etc. Sure we saved some money....but its started taking longer to get projects done and the accounting issues, delays, etc. was a big problem. Company literally had know way to hold anyone accountable and offshore managers weren't cutting it either.

[Demsrule86]

77. GM's accounting department is outsourced to Jamaica. It is still happening.

[moondust]

36. No doubt lots of jobs.

Every time I do updates on Windows 10 it takes what seems like forever while it just sits there not showing any progress. Even Windows 7 wasn't nearly that bad. Do the kids in Bangladesh who want to break into the tech industry so they'll work almost for free know anything about compatibility, QA, testing, or user friendliness? Or is it all about enriching executives and investors now?

[iemanja]

44. Well, you rarely get an American when you call for tech service

You're lucky if they are Indian. Usually the English isn't so good.

[Iggo]

50. Welcome to the 1990's.

[Retrograde]

160. Exactly - this has been going on for a long time

I worked for high tech firms - and I don't mean app companies like Uber or Airbnb - but actual interacting-with-the-silicon ones back in the 80s and 90s. We used to love getting resumes from IIT (India Institute of Technology) graduates, because that meant they were the cream of the crop. Then in about 1995 we started seeing more and more Indian names on resumes, and noticed that there were firms popping up that specialized in placing engineers from Indian and getting them the appropriate visas. And the quality of the engineers they brought in was way below what it had been: as long as it was about the same as the average American engineer that was OK, but as demand kept going up the supply of qualified people kept going down and eventually the firms were just supplying warm bodies. Then in the late 90s companies got the bright idea that they could save some $$$ - for a short time at least - by going to all foreign contract workers. It was a short step from that to just keeping the workers in India and saving even more on labor costs. Again, at the beginning this attracted some highly qualified people, those who knew their subject but for some reason wanted to stay in India. But like a corollary to Grisham's law the lesser trained and less competent people who were willing to work for less money drove the good ones out.

And it happens in other areas. American manufacturing jobs largely left for China, and now that country is being challenged by Vietnam as a cheap place to do business. It will keep happening as long as the US tax code rewards big business for putting profits over the good of the country.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

54. Yes and sad to say I'm not impressed with most of those I've dealt with.

More than once I've called a help line only to have the guy on the other end read from the same trouble shooting flow chart I just used. My response was, "I've already done all that with no success. That's why I'm calling you."

[Steelrolled]

56. I would enthusiastically recommend computer science to a young person as a college major.

The outsourcing to India and other "low cost" development centers but overall growth in the industry is still high.

Also, companies realized that outsourcing work is not so easy, and it wasn't uncommon for it to be a complete bust. They discovered the value in having US-based employees who are closer (physically, time-zone-wise, and culturally) to management, marketing, sales, customers, etc.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

62. It's been happening for years.

And it will continue to happen in other fields as well.

The corporations that demand higher educations for their workforce usually don't even pay for it, so it's little skin off their nose to replace those employees. It's the employees' student debt, not the company's debt.

At least our military actually pays their enlisted soldiers as they train them in various specialties. I'm not comparing most of that training to four years of college coursework, but it would be nice to see more of that vested interest among the private sector.

[milestogo]

67. The network engineers trained by the US military are excellent.

They are trained in communications of all kinds.

Very smart people... and smart enough to get the govt to pay for all of it.

[Luciferous]

89. My son wants to work for the Army Corp of Engineers. He wants to be a civil engineer and

he wants to travel, and they will pay for a lot of his education. I think one of the biggest problems in the private sector, particularly for skilled jobs, is the lack of training programs. So many companies complain that they can't find skilled workers- well then train your workers!

[Demsrule86]

69. That has been going on for years...the big companies do it...Sprint fired and entire floor

when I worked there and then on Monday brought in workers mostly from India...it happened at my husband's former job recently too.

[tritsofme]

70. Between this thread and the headlights one, I had to seriously consider if it had become 1998 at DU.

No offense intended, but it’s given me a good chuckle.

[MerryHolidays]

80. I cannot imagine I'm on DU, reading this stuff

Not even going to look for the headlights one...

[mnhtnbb]

81. Just for fun, I put in software engineer

Last edited Wed Sep 22, 2021, 08:48 AM - Edit history (1)

in the job search website of Indeed.com for Durham, NC. Apple recently announced they will be building a big new campus here--part of the Research Triangle--adding thousands of new jobs. Tech is big here. Very big.

Check out the jobs available now. Many are for multiple hires and you only have to go to the second page to find one advertising it is paying $180 grand/year.

My oldest son is a senior software engineer locally for an international company. They went to remote work because of Covid in March 2020. He was here last night helping me set up my new phone (OnePlus 8T) because my old OnePlus 5 wasn't going to be able to handle 5G when my carrier converts in February. Planned obsolescence. Anyway I asked him if anyone was laid off because of remote work and he said no. His group members have been given the choice to continue working primarily by remote, or return to the office when Covid is no longer a problem here. He plans to continue working remote and isn't worried about losing his job because of it.

https://www.indeed.com/m/jobs?q=software%20engineer&l=Durham%2C%20NC

On edit: I noticed in the link that my son's company is advertising here in Durham for another software engineer.

[DFW]

87. We're small (about 500 people), so our IT department is small, too

Only about 20 people. All but a few work in-house, a few probably work remotely. All are the Dallas office except one who really isn't en employee of ours. He did an internship with us in Dallas about 20 years ago, so he knows our needs, and he helps out our Dutch office, but only on a contract basis. He does free-lance work all over the Netherlands.

We don't have a lot of turnover, but there is always someone moving away to get married in anohter city, or whatever, and we are always on the lookout for competent IT people. Being in Texas, of course we have Mexicans working for us, but if there are any Filipinos or Indians (I rarely pop in there), they are all working in Dallas, not in Mumbai or Manila.

[Klaralven]

88. A strategy from a couple decades ago was to outsource maintenance of old systems to India

If you had a group maintaining an old application that was going to be replaced, you would shift the work to staff in India. As you did so the US staff would be either moved to the replacement project if they had the skills, or they would be terminated. Then, when the new application was ready, the India contract would be terminated.

[argyl]

92. I've had to call Apple (iphone) Customer Service. They are Horrible.

They've shifted me over to an " unaffiliated" company called Just Answer a few times. Yeah, it's an Indian outfit. And I'm not apologizing for saying I can tell by the accent. The staff on whole is pretty lousy.I've had $46 a month contracts pushed on me when they know I've just got an iPhone with connectivity problems.
Had one young woman actually have the gall to tell me they weren't affiliated with Apple. So I ask her why Apple's directed me to her. And I didn't need a contract and hung up.
I've even been directed to LinkedIn before. Guess I was supposed to review them and pick one I liked.
Getting a US representative(if you can) is a totally different experience. They've always seen me through my problems and been polite to boot.
The simply know their jobs much better than reps.from other countries I've had to deal with.

Theses are iPhone outfits rather than Apple directly but last I heard they still made them,

[lanlady]

109. That's sad about Apple

It wasn’t in the too, too distant past that I could call Apple customer support and get a person in California to expertly troubleshoot a software or hardware issue for me. Seems so old-fashioned now, like when gas station employees would fill your tank, wash your windows, and check your oil and tires.

[fescuerescue]

95. If you can work from home. You can work from India.

Yes. Lots of jobs are being outsourced to India. Been going on for awhile unfortunately.

Having said that, IT hiring is still booming in the US.

My company has a hard time filling IT jobs and not a one pays less than $100k a year.

Helpdesk jobs though. yes. Those are all pretty much in India.

Helpdesk jobs are pretty much the bottom wrung of IT. But alot of people get their start there.

[Tommymac]

105. Been happening since the 1990's. Why are you shocked now?

IT workers are notoriously libertarian and do not want to even think about Unionizing to protect their well paying jobs.

Ayn Randian types have been spreading that stupid sophomoric philosophy online for ever, and for some reason IT types have latched onto it. To their great loss.

No new story here, move along.

[we can do it]

106. It's not news.

[Captain Stern]

108. Like folks have said, this has been happening for quite a while.

These days, I'm actually surprised when I call for IT help and the person who answers isn't in/from India.

That said, more often than not, they are quite helpful. It is a little frustrating to have to wait as they go through their checklist of questions that they have to ask, but I don't really mind. It's standard procedure, and there probably are a lot of folks that haven't done some of the simple stuff.

I've also had more than a few instances where I've had to speak to someone who's accent was so strong that I simply couldn't understand what they were saying. I don't mean that I had trouble grasping the concept that they were explaining to me. I mean that I couldn't understand the words they were saying.

[ripcord]

123. H1B visas are often a scam to get around immigration and employment laws

Many of the workers that are sponsored don't have the skills that the company required of U.S. workers when it advertised the jobs here.

[joetheman]

144. BINGO!! Only certain people can get them and then they bring their families to the US with jobs

waiting for them. Ask me how I know and i will send you a secret message.

[Hobo]

125. You are a little late to the party

It's been going on for about 20 years now. Plus it is not just IT, but most of the high paying engineering jobs like construction engineering.

Hobo

[AngryOldDem]

149. Sadly, LOL. It's been going on AT LEAST since the early 1990s.

My ex and I were beginning a family back then and we lived in fucking FEAR of this. To this day hearing “outsourcing” makes my blood boil.

Here’s what we lived with: He wouid hear vague rumors that outsourcing was coming. So he would get ahead of the curve, job hunt, and find a new one. A year or so later, it would be lather, rinse, repeat. For damn near 10 years. Once he didn’t get lucky and was laid off two days before our older son was born. That resulted in an out-of-state move after some months of looking that was unhappy and frustrating. Then there were all the overseas phone calls with people who did not have a good command of the English language, training them, etc., or risk losing severance. Not saying all this broke our marriage, but it damn sure put a huge strain on it.

The reason or it is— at least then, anyway — cheap labor. Outsourced workers would accept peanuts compared to the people they were displacing, like my ex, who needed a goddamn adequate wage to raise a family. On the other side of the coin, it was fucking slave labor companies were getting — as well as a compliant workforce that would take whatever shit was thrown at them. They loved that, and justified it by saying outsourcing was needed because of a shortage of IT people here. UTTER HORSESHIT. They were driven out.

My ex came to be philosophical about this; I never have been able to. The turmoil and uncertainty of when we went through this exercise of pure corporate greed and what it cost good, American workers angers me to this day. That may not be PC, but I’m not apologizing for it after having lived with it.

Rant off.

[XanaDUer2]

150. Thank you for your post nt

[milestogo]

152. I first worked with an H1B programmer in 2001

He was from India, and people respected his work. He was a C programmer. But this was in a city with a major state university, an excellent community college, and at least three technical colleges. I found it impossible to believe that they had to go all the way to India to get a C programmer. Well, they didn't have to, but they did it to save money. This company had over 1000 H1B workers. I'm pretty sure all of those positions could have been filled with American workers. H1B is largely a scam. The idea was good, but it was exploited by large companies to hire cheap labor.

Another major business in the area does not recruit from any of the local schools but goes to the technical colleges in India to recruit. They recruit people with zero experience, so the argument that they are filling a need for a certain skillset just doesn't hold water. They are college grads with no work experience at all.

They were and are cheaper labor. There seemed to be a major outcry when the US lost manufacturing jobs to China. But the IT jobs are leaving without a whimper.

I'm sorry you and your family were affected so directly by this. Its not fair.

[AngryOldDem]

154. My ex blamed the consulting firms and abuse of H1B

The consulting firms, IMO, were modern-day slave masters, and they made big money from those they brought over.

I’ve slowly come around to his belief too, but at the time, my emotions were just a bit too raw. We were constantly behind the eight ball financially because it was hard to recoup the lost salary from the layoff.

There is a human cost to this, both to the H1B workers and those they displace, not that corporations give a shit.

EDIT: I had an outsourcing experience of my own with an editing job I had. At first it was a in-house job — I used to work there full time in fact, and I had steady freelance work almost all the time after I left. Then the editing/production was outsourced overseas. Almost everbody I worked with was canned. Communication with the new people was mainly by e-mail, and everyone I dealt with had poor command of English. That meant a lot of misunderstandings and tense exchanges — and the people who were left here locally were of little help. Phone calls, thank God, weren’t a factor because of the huge time difference.

Eventually the work stopped coming after I got into several testy e-mail exchanges because I flat-out could not understand them. I had to assume my services were no longer desired. After about 10 years’ solid experience, and not even the courtesy of any communication to that effect. Fuck them.

[BannonsLiver]

151. It's not just IT

I recently had to call Hawaiian Airlines to rebook a flight (we’re going to Hawaii soon) and the customer service rep was in India. She was fine but what I’ve found is it does require extra focus to understand some of what they’re saying.

[milestogo]

153. I had to talk to an Indian helpdesk person this week.

The helpdesk number was in Ohio. I had to ask her to repeat what she was saying about 10-15 times because I couldn't understand her. I had to do a lot of things to fix the problem. The next day I saw a call from India come up on my phone and I almost didn't answer it because - I just don't get calls from India. The problem was resolved, but once again I had to ask her to repeat what she said many times. She had the skills, but it was really difficult to understand her.

[AngryOldDem]

155. And they try to hide it by using Anglo-sounding names.

I’ve learned to have a lot of patience.

[Treefrog]

159. It's very frustrating.

Even calling Bissell for a new vacuum filter was WAY more difficult than I expected.

[milestogo]

161. And the employers do not care.

So nothing is going to change.

[Treefrog]

162. No, they don't. Thinking they care about "customer service" is laughable.

At the risk of sounding like an old fogie, I do remember when you actually could get a person who cared on the phone.

LL Bean still does this, and they do it well.

[XanaDUer2]

163. Discover credit card

is wonderful. You get a human, US-based, and they go above and beyond to help you. One young man walked me through setting up online account. You can get travel miles or cash back.

[Treefrog]

165. Yes, I've heard that.

I know there’s some others too, but sadly, wracking my brains to come up with an example!

Amtrak is good in the interactions I’ve had with them.

[AngryOldDem]

164. Yes, they do.

I’ve had very pleasant interactions with Bean representatives. Contrast that, say, with AT&T, where most of the time I want to throw my phone across the room.

Which has the more favorable consumer impression? I thought companies cared about image. Guess not, anymore.

[Johnny2X2X]

158. Engineering too

My company has been outsourcing software engineering work to India with really good results. They do excellent SW work in India.