Ralph Nader lied about this wonderful car.

[Casady1]

He rigged the test and destroyed a great car

&t=1033s

[hlthe2b]

1. Well, if so, it wasn't all that he lied about...

How different all would be if he'd not intervened in so many things. No, I'm not willing to rehash the 2000 election, but...

[MineralMan]

2. Yes, he did, and ruined US automaker's innovations

from then on. Chevrolet introduced the Corvair as a new concept in American automobiles. Even though rear engine, air-cooled engine cars already existed, GM took a big chance by introducing the Corvair.

I owned a 1960 Corvair - the first year it became available. It wasn't unsafe. Driven normally, it was as safe as any other automobile, and safer than some rear-engine cars. GM improved it, year after year, and by the time Nader's book came out, what he complained about had already been redesigned to correct high-speed cornering instability. For most drivers, that flaw would never have even been detected or experienced.

But, GM fixed it and improved the car's handling dramatically by 1964. Sadly, Nader's book killed one of the most innovative car designs in GM history, and also scared off other manufacturers from innovating in their designs, as well.

Later, Nader went on to help defeat Al Gore in 2000, giving us George W. Bush to mislead the country.

No thanks, Ralph. You've done enough already to spoil things.

[obamanut2012]

14. My uncle also had one, and he loved it

And drove it for many years without any major issues. People laughed at him about owning one, and he said what you just did: Nader killed the US auto market for decades.

[Equomba]

3. And had he not decided to run as a 3rd party candidate in 2000

we would be living in a completely different world today.

Probably no 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan, or tRump, to name a few.

I have nothing against 3rd party candidates, but there can be consequences.

[Hortensis]

11. I used to like 3rd-partiers too. People who reject everything "mainstream"

or establishment needed alternatives. It's nice for those drawn to zealots, spiritualists, or scammers to have choices. I used to drive them, among others, to the polls when I believed everyone should vote. I was young.

Unfortunately, it turned out that most third-partiers and candidates despise Democrats specifically so much they think they're doing good, or at very least doing no real harm, by throwing elections to the Republicans. And whatever's wrong with them makes them try again general election after general election.

And as you say.

[dsp3000]

47. well said.

[DickKessler]

72. Why do you assume that third-party voters would have voted Dem otherwise?

You could just as easily say they wouldn't have voted at all.

[DickKessler]

71. That assumes Nader voters would have voted Dem, or that the GOP wouldn't still steal the election.

Nader wasn't the reason that Gore "lost." The election was stolen by Republicans.

Do you blame Pat Buchanan for running third party?

[Equomba]

74. Without Nader on the ballot, the recount would not have ocurred and

there would have been no Supreme Court involvement.

One exit poll asked respondents how they would vote in a two-person race between Bush and Gore. 47% of the Nader voters said they would choose Gore in a two-man race, 21% would choose Bush, and 32% would not vote. Applying these figures to the actual vote, Gore would have achieved a net gain of 26,000 votes in Florida, far more than needed to carry the state easily.

[DickKessler]

75. And without the Florida GOP purge of Black voters and the butterfly ballots, Gore would have won FL.

Don't blame this all on Nader. There were many factors.

[Equomba]

78. I merely stated that had Nader not been on the ballot,

Gore would have won, which you appear to agree with.

I didn't blame him for anything, he was the focus of the OP and I made a comment about him. Had the OP been about butterfly ballots I might have made the observation that THEY cost Gore the election. Each can stand on their own... combining them makes the eventual outcome even more lamentable.

[Mazeltov Cocktail]

4. I think Ralph Nader is a fraud on many levels...

But why did GM allow him to slander one of their cars like this?
My Dad had a '63 2-door with 4 on the floor. He worked for GM, and he thought that Nader had been bought and paid for.

[Farmer-Rick]

5. Why do I care what a guy with $450 million has to say about a car?

He doesn't live in the real world. His interest are Not equivalent to my interests. He has no way of understanding my concerns and my life. He may have come from average stock, I don't know or care. Right now his excessive wealth makes him someone not in my world.

[BradAllison]

16. If he's "not in your world"....

...how do you know his worth?

[Farmer-Rick]

49. Hehe, very funny

He Ives in the world of the super rich. I live in the world of the lucky to get by.

Here's a link from my world:

As of 2021, Jay Leno’s net worth is roughly $450 million.

James Douglas Muir Leno is an American actor, comedian and television host from New York. He initially gained recognition when he had his debut on The Tonight Show in 1977, where he performed a comedy routine.

https://wealthygorilla.com/jay-leno-net-worth/

[hunter]

59. Jay Leno earned his money honestly. I don't begrudge that kind of wealth.

On the other hand, there's quite a few sociopath defense contractors, health insurance executives, slum lords, televangelists, etc., who should probably be in prison, not flying around in private jets. Society has to protect itself from people like that.

[Farmer-Rick]

62. As multi-millionaires go he's not the worse

Some people think that if you become successful in an inherently evil system it is fine. Taking advantage of the built in abuses of the system to get ahead is not abusive itself.

But others think that you are part of the problem if you get excessively successful off an abusive system. All those slave owners who got so vastly wealthy off of using the abusive economic system they did not create were part of the problem. All those Lord's and Kings who allowed their serfs to live on the edge of starvation were part of the problem even if they didn't actively murder their citizens. Owning stocks in a corporation that is killing the planet is part of the problem.

What would happen if no one bought stocks? I bet the slave owner Or the Lord couldn't imagine a world without a slave economy or feudal system too. Yeah, capitalism is an improvement over slavery and feudalism but it is still a very abusive system for most people. And getting excessively wealthy and powerful off it is not a virtue.

[hunter]

69. I can recall the exact moment I rejected life as a potential multi-millionaire.

It was one of the better decisions I've made in my life.

If I hadn't quit high school for college I'd probably be dead.

If I hadn't rejected my one opportunity to be a multi-millionaire I wouldn't have a soul.

[Farmer-Rick]

73. But can you remember when you decided not to abuse others?

Can you remember when you decided that hurting others for your own success was Not something you could live with?

I remember hurting a friend to get promoted and decided that I would never do it again because I lost a valuable friend over it.

Then I started questioning how our economic system promotes abuse and success at any cost. The cost of other's feelings, the cost of destroying the environment are hidden in the costs of capitalism.

You know, if you promote a philosophy that justifies the filthy rich you have the potential of making a lot of money. The filthy rich are always looking for a mouthpiece to promote their corruption. But you chose Not to do that either.

You did make the decision, you just didn't realize it.

[Xoan]

22. LOL

Net Worth in 2021: $8 million
Last Updated: September 2021

https://www.wealthypersons.com/ralph-nader-net-worth-2020-2021/

[Sympthsical]

31. The poster's referring to Jay Leno

It's Leno's YouTube thingy in the OP.

[bobalew]

6. The Corsa, contained a crapload of "Fixes"....

Previous Models, however, were literal deathtraps. From someone who drove a few of these, I can completely concur with Ralph Nader on the subject. Let's not revise history without experience, or facts. I have available, to this day, many examples of these, due to a friend who collects them. He has over 50 of them to date, in his inventory. The earlier models all drive like unruly boxmobiles, due to poorly designed suspensions, & steering geometry.

[Casady1]

10. That is actually untrue

Porsche and VW used the swing axle . The 1972 report by the NSA stated that the early Corvairs were as safe as any other car on the road. What people did was over inflate the tires. Front tires on Corvair only required 16 lbs of air pressure.

[bobalew]

20. Come to San Martin, Ca. and test drive some of them.. Then express your opinion...

Facts & proof is what I offer. Nothing less.. and 16 lbs of tire pressure was one of the Fixes. Normal tire pressure in that era was ~ 28-30 lbs/ Sq inch... as it might be now.. You see @ 68 yrs, I'm not only aware of history, I'm part of it.

[Casady1]

28. and so was I.

I'm 70. 16 lbs was not a fix. You fall into the 28-30 lbs. were normal group. This was a car that was out of the ordinary. By 1965 it was the first car that had full independent suspension.. The specific issue was addressed and the NSA eventually founf d that the Corvair was no more dangerous than any other car from that era. People over inflated the tires. Look it up. Swing axles were normal at the time and many European cars had it.

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/07/21/archives/us-car-study-disputes-nader-on-corvair-safety-charge-in-65-us-car.html

[snowybirdie]

7. Our first new car

Lovely, shiny. Hubby went through a side street intersection near our house. He got clipped in the rear fender. Rolled five times and ended up parked in front of our house, right side up. Nuff said! Unsafe and dangerous!

[SharonAnn]

8. I loved my Corvair. I thought it was a great car.

It was easy to drive, economical, and could go just about anywhere in snow.

[dweller]

9. My 1st car, I had 2 ... Nader didn't kill them

I did …

😔


✌🏻

[sop]

12. Early Porsche 911s were also legendary for their tendency to swap ends if one drove too hot into

a corner, but these days they're expensive, sought-after classics. Old VWs didn't handle that great either. Nader's always been an annoying gadfly.

[Casady1]

13. the early Porshe's (365)

used swing axles as did VW's . I had one of the last VW's9('68) that had a swing axle( my first car). Most people over inflted the tires on the front end which made them squirrely. They only required 16lbs of air pressure.

[ruet]

53. Mid and Rear Engine Cars Are Tank Slappers...

if you don't know what you're driving. ...a driver education issue.

[UnderThisLaw]

15. Nope, GM botched their response to the book

of which only one chapter was about the Corvair. It didn’t receive much attention until it became known that GM was searching for personal info on Nader. If their reaction had been “this guy isn’t a engineer and doesn’t know what he is talking about” much less publicity.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

19. Yep. It's amazing what people apparently defend now that Nader hurt their fee fees.

He was ahead of his time calling out the ridiculous way the big 3 would refuse to spend a few bucks on simple safety features but would spend hundreds a year on styling.

Like you said. One chapter in the book. And the rest about they way we now know the way the way the manufacturers acted.

Who can forget the Pinto. But now Nader is the bad guy but not the people who were ok with customers burning to death. Good lord.

Sometimes I feel like I wandered on the old yahoo comments section.

But at least Nader detractors are in good company.

In 2005, the book received an honorable mention by conservative publication Human Events for its "Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries", meaning two or more out of fifteen conservative thinkers voted for it. Other award winners included authors Betty Friedan and John Maynard Keynes

Industry response[edit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed

In response to Nader's criticisms, GM attempted to sabotage Nader's reputation. It "conducted a series of interviews with acquaintances of the plaintiff, 'questioning them about, and casting aspersions upon [his] political, social, racial and religious views; his integrity; his sexual proclivities and inclinations; and his personal habits'; (2) kept him under surveillance in public places for an unreasonable length of time; (3) caused him to be accosted by girls for the purpose of entrapping him into illicit relationships; (4) made threatening, harassing and obnoxious telephone calls to him; (5) tapped his telephone and eavesdropped, by means of mechanical and electronic equipment, on his private conversations with others; and (6) conducted a 'continuing' and harassing investigation of him."[12]
On March 22, 1966, GM President James Roche was forced to appear before a United States Senate subcommittee and apologized to Nader for the company's campaign of harassment and intimidation. Nader sued GM in November 1966 for invasion of privacy.[12][10] He won the case on appeal in January 1970 and was awarded $425,000, which he used to establish the Center for Auto Safety, a non-profit advocacy group. He went on to lobby for consumer rights, helping drive the creation of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the passage of the Clean Air Act, among others.[13]
Former GM executive and Chevrolet's general manager John DeLorean asserted in the book On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors (1979) that he believed Nader's criticisms were valid in the context of the rigidity and short-sightedness of General Motors' corporate culture.[14][15]

[DickKessler]

76. It's all because of 2000.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

17. Yet they video you post says the Mustang killed the Corvair

Rear engine car with 1960s technology suspensions? Yeah, no way that is going to be safe in a highway speed over-correction in an accident avoidance. Front engine cars were bad enough.

Cars, until recently, haven’t had electronic stability control as a required safety feature. Estimates, last I looked, we’re the ESC might save 4,000 lives a year in oversteer accidents. Whipping that heavy back end around in an emergency would be curtains for the occupants.

My neighbor had two Corvair convertibles. Cool cars.

[Casady1]

18. Leno's opinion

But it never really recovered. I was alive at the time. How many buyers were turned off by Nader? I think plenty.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

21. What about the other chapters of that book? Did they hate America?

[Casady1]

34. I was 14 when that book came out

and ralph was on TV all the time about it. It was everywhere and the Corvair never recovered.

[UnderThisLaw]

40. That's interesting

because this guy seems to think the Corvair lingered because of Nader.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a13733502/yes-the-chevrolet-corvair-really-was-a-handful-to-drive/

[Casady1]

43. You should have seen the press at the time

no one wanted touch them after the report.

[UnderThisLaw]

44. I kind of think

that a GM engineer who prepared for the lawsuits might know what he was talking about.

And as mentioned before, GM pretty much caused their own issues

[LakeArenal]

23. If I could have a vintage car, it would be a white top convertible turquoise Covair

With white leather seats. Sigh.

[Casady1]

25. It is one of the better values

for a classic car.

[LakeArenal]

27. This.

[Casady1]

29. you would want

the manual and turbo.

[LakeArenal]

30. Thanks. My dream gets more detailed❣️

[Casady1]

32. That is a beauty

such great lines and still looks modern.

[Casady1]

36. I own one of these

only it is a 1994.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/403155048157?hash=item5ddde9d6dd:g:l5AAAOSw3YdhPktq

[LakeArenal]

54. Sigh. That's very cool.

[Casady1]

55. The first modern car

the first car with a coil per cylinder. 4 wheel drive, very stiff reinforced body and 258 lbs of torque stock. of course mine isn't stock.

[Maru Kitteh]

24. Nader was a complete asshat. Self-aggrandizing egomaniacal weasel.

[BannonsLiver]

26. Ralph is living proof only the good die young.

[progressoid]

45. Yeah, like Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter

[BannonsLiver]

46. Exceptions that prove the rule.

But I do enjoy a good whataboutism.

Ralph, like all hypocritical scum bags, will not be remembered as fondly as those two will be, though. Believe that.

[progressoid]

50. It's not whataboutism

Nor is it the exception that proves the rule, because an idiom is not a rule.

[Hoyt]

33. Learned to drive in a Corvair Monza. Great little care back when most cars were huge.

Only problem I remember is that burnt oil leaked into the cabin and smelled awful.

[hunter]

42. That's my memory of the Volkswagens my dad always bought.

Cars with air cooled engines extracted cabin heat from the exhaust manifolds and engine compartment. If there were any oil leaks, even small ones, you'd smell it. The hot manifolds also burned whatever dust got on them. A cracked manifold or bad gasket could fill the car with carbon monoxide.

[spanone]

35. I had a covair spyder....loved it

got hit broadside in it. totaled the car. minor injuries.

[hunter]

37. Modern cars were developed in the 1980's.

Most cars before that were either deathtraps or steel boxes like the Volvo 200 series.

The Corvair wasn't especially dangerous and the handling wasn't especially worse than other cars of the time.

As young adults my brother and I briefly owned an old '67 Mustang that I much enjoyed driving. (We later fixed it up and sold it, doubling our money...)

Thirty years later, and accustomed to driving a 1980's Toyota, I drove a fully restored '67 Mustang and it wasn't as fun as I remembered. It was rough.

In the bad old days you had to know a cars flaw's, especially in hard driving, else it could kill you.

[Casady1]

41. The first truly modern car

was the 1992 Audi S4. It was made between 92-94 and became the S6. It was the first car with coils on every cylinder. Before that you had one coil for all the cylinders. I have owned a couple of legendary cars. First one was a 1972 datsun 510. This is known as a calssic race car. Paul Newman raced them

the car I own today is a 1994 audi s4. This is truly a great driving car.

&t=234s

[hunter]

51. One of my brothers had a 510.

That was a nimble machine.

I have an extreme love/hate relationship with cars. When I was young and wild I drove all over California, the U.S. Southwest, and Northwestern Mexico. Gasoline was free and I could do most car repairs myself; with JB weld and fence wire if I had to. I've got a lot of nostalgic feelings about that. Jay Leno's garage is a secret vice.

On the other hand I'm a radical environmentalist who has seen too many people killed and maimed in car accidents.

In a perfect world most people would live in very pleasant walkable cities with excellent public transportation. Car ownership would be unnecessary. This planet simply can't support a car for every adult human, especially the roads, highways, energy, and materials that would require.

[Casady1]

52. we used to have a saying

the 510 will beat a porsche downhill. They really handled. We can't work on cars anymore. In the old day we changed oil, did tuneups, set points and did everything. The Audi has a computer like today's cars so they are easy to analyze. My mechanic is great. I have the original clutch at 250K. the steering pump finally wore out( rubber went bad ) after 25 years. The Audi is so well built. There is one on ebay for $15,000. I can get $8,000 for mine. There are probably only 300-500 left.

[napi21]

48. It makes me sad when you call the 60's the "bad old days". That's the era when I started to

drive. I know there were some duds out there, but when I dream of yester-year I think of it as the era of fast cars with real style! People were proud of the car they drove, My favorites came along in the 70's with the Cuda, Camaro, GTO, and more. My absolute favorite was the Plymouth Superbird!!!! We almost bought a yellow one, but my husband chickened out & bought a Chrysler Newport (which I always called an old man's car & do to this day!).

Those were NOT the bad old days!

[Klaralven]

65. They were developed before the 1980s in Europe and Japan

The three most important advances adopted in the US in the early '80s were radial tires and disc brakes from Europe and transverse front wheel drive trains from Japan (although Audi, Citroen, Renault and others had longitudinal front wheel drive before, the modern setup was perfected for mass production in Japan.)

The last US automotive innovation seems to have been the Bendix electric starter....

[mahatmakanejeeves]

67. "The last US automotive innovation seems to have been the Bendix electric starter...."

The last US automotive innovation seems to have been the Bendix electric starter....

I disagree.

Oldsmobile introduced the automatic transmission in 1939, give or take.

Chrysler had disc brakes in 1953, again, give or take.

Lap seatbelts were optional on Fords in the mid-'50s.

Fuel injection was an option on the 1957 Chevrolet.

The 1963 Corvette had four-wheel independent suspension.

Disc brakes were optional on Fords by 1967 at least.

The three most important advances adopted in the US in the early '80s were radial tires and disc brakes from Europe ...

GM's A-body cars, starting in 1973, came from the factory with radial tires and front disc brakes.

Every Chrysler from 1973 on had electronic ignition.

Self-leveling suspensions were standard (or maybe an option) on some cars in the 1960s or 1970s. I'll have to check.

Best wishes.

[Klaralven]

68. Most of those things were in limited production as options on a few models.

Take the Chrysler disc brakes. They were not caliper disc brakes as is used in all modern cars, but clutch-type disc brakes. They were discontinued after '54.

Chrysler's Pioneering Disc-Brake System Explained

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/chryslers-pioneering-disc-brake-system-explained/

[MichMan]

38. Always heard that Nader never had a driver's license in his entire life

Expert on cars, but never actually ever drove one

[UnderThisLaw]

39. Personally, I'm more

worried that we had a President who never had a job involving government in his life

[Hassin Bin Sober]

58. Harvard trained attorney who got his info from hundreds of filed cases against the auto mfrs.

You know like cases where the manufacturers knew people would die needlessly but they wanted to save a buck or two on safety equipment.

[yellowcanine]

56. The original Corvairs did have an oversteer problem which could lead to upsets on turns.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a13733502/yes-the-chevrolet-corvair-really-was-a-handful-to-drive/

Was it "unsafe at any speed?" Probably not, but at moderately aggressive driving speeds on a winding road, yes, there was a problem.
And it really is not reasonable to expect the average driver of a street car to adhere to such unusual differences in tire pressure between front and rear tires. The fact that this was recommended suggests that GM engineers realized there was a problem. The car should have been recalled and fixed before Nader even got it. There were some after market fixes which helped and most of the problems were corrected in later models.

"A pair of short half shafts connected the [rear] wheels to the frame-mounted differential. Only the inboard ends of the shafts could articulate, so as the suspension compressed or extended, the wheels tilted at extreme angles. This had the effect of dramatically reducing the rubber on the road. In an aggressive turn, the rear end tended to lose traction before the front, causing oversteer, or fishtailing. That wasn’t all, however. There was a chance, a slim one, that the outside rear wheel could tuck in under the body and potentially trip the car into a rollover. These effects were further exasperated when owners failed to heed the Corvair’s unconventional recommended tire pressures: 15 psi in the front and 26 psi in the rear."

Webster took two Corvairs—including a yellow four-door that, get this, was originally owned by Ralph Nader—to an airfield to see what they'd do in different cornering scenarios. Almost immediately, he experienced oversteer that only got worse as the speeds rose:

"To avoid spinning the car, I have to counter-steer almost immediately after initiating the turn. To racers, this behavior is known as “loose,” and it’s generally preferred to a front end that simply understeers, or plows. But I could see how the lightly trained driver might get into trouble. That was Nader’s point: The average driver wasn’t equipped to handle an over-steering car."

[Casady1]

57. swing axles were on Porches and VW's

My VW was the last of the swing axles. In the NTSA finding it was no more dangerous than any other car. He rigged his test.

[Brother Mythos]

77. I had a major 'no steer' problem driving a Corvair. The car was so back end heavy, that ...

at higher speeds on a long, straight, uphill section of highway, the front wheels came off the ground. When I realized the car was drifting off the road, I left off the throttle. The front tires then dropped back down onto the road, and I was able to steer again. To verify this was not a fluke, I turned around, went back down to the bottom of the hill, and tried it again.

On the second try, I hugged the center of the road, aimed the car straight, and accelerated up the hill. And, once again, I lost the ability to steer. At first, I simply tried turning the steering wheel very gently. But, after realizing the tires were not touching the road, I turned the steering wheel violently from side to side. And, nothing happened. So, I left off the throttle again, the front tires dropped back down onto the road again, and I was able to steer.

The inelegant solution to the problem was to put two pieces of railroad track, each about three feet long, in the front located trunk of the car. Fortunately, I was not the owner. I was merely using it to run an errand for him, and he had not warned me about how badly the car handled.

As the slope of this particular uphill section of highway is by no means unusual steep, I am of the opinion that the Corvair was a deathtrap.

[cinematicdiversions]

60. The video states the Ralph Nader cause the car to be produced for more years.

there weer going to kill it in '66 but Nadars's book saved it and as a result they kept it going for years longer

Leno states it was the Mustang that did the car in.

[Celerity]

61. And says nothing about rigging some test. No evidence provided for claims made.

[Casady1]

64. this probably explains it

[Champp]

63. Covairs were some of the flimsiest, shittiest cars ever built

I don't care what Nader did or didn't do. I know Corvairs up close and personal. They were really crappy cars.

Looked OK, though, if you need some kind of a redeeming feature. Meh.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

66. The car that Nader called "unsafe at any speed" wasn't the Corvair. It was

a Cadillac, with huge dagger-shaped tailfins, such as a '59 or '60. I haven't seen the book in years, but IIRC, a bicylist was killed when he ran into a tailfin of a parked Cadillac. Hence the appelation, "unsafe at any speed."

[DickKessler]

70. What's the point of this thread?

[Bucky]

79. Which is dumber, the 66 Corvair thread or the Dogs Are Too Expensive thread?

Sometimes people talk about things I don't think are interesting. These people should be silenced