It always amuses me when we hear "that's not who we are as a nation"

[Horse with no Name]

When indeed it is exactly who we are.
I wish this wasn’t true but the facts speak for themselves.

[Wounded Bear]

1. Indeed! We love to say "We just don't do that here!"...

when that is exactly what we've been doing for centuries.

[Irish_Dem]

2. The pandemic emergency has revealed our national character.

The good, the bad, and the ugly.

Certainly a lot more bad and ugly than I thought possible.

[Dustlawyer]

18. Good, bad, ugly & willfully ignorant!

[H2O Man]

3. Recommended.

I agree completely. It's as if there is a large family, with numerous violent drunks, saying, "That ain't who we are as a family."

[Hortensis]

4. Why the forgetting that a majority of Americans are much better?

Much as your negative imaginings might contradict it, who we are as a nation elected liberal Obama twice and our first woman, liberal president once. Majorities are disgusted by the scenes at the border, not cheering. Over 3/4 of Americans supported the BLM marches. If the will of majority prevailed, the minority could not have elected tRump or be threatening our democracy now.

America's majority (who "most of who we are" ) is why the long arc of our history has been bending toward justice. And that long domination and advancement of society is why a crazed, reactionary, anti-democracy minority is willing to destroy our nation to stop it.

I am not "amused," by the OP. It suggests to me a terrible failure of understanding that that long arc even exists. It's humanity's, btw, not just America's.

[leftstreet]

5. Less than half the eligible voters vote

An estimated 1/4 of the population drives election results in a system where there are just two parties to choose from. So no one really knows what "the nation" is thinking

[Salviati]

15. Not voting doesn't get them off the hook.

Maybe they don't explicitly want this country to be taking some of the terrible actions it does when it's under bad leadership, but they clearly don't have that much of a problem with it either.

[Cosmocat]

25. C O R R E C T !

At best 1/3 of us value American democracy.

1/3 full on want facist authoritatianism and 1/3 are willing to stand by and let it happen.

[Hortensis]

34. Roughly the same proportions as in revolutionary times.

Pro-revolution (not necessarily pro-democracy), loyal monarchists, leave-us-out-of-it-ers.

[LakeArenal]

6. Yes ugly and loud too. Just because the ugly loud people get the press...

doesn’t mean that’s who we are.

We are Katie Porter, Sec. Pete, Adam Schiff, Joe Biden, RBG, and all the people who like our Established Democracy.

[Horse with no Name]

7. My negative imaginings must be related to the fact that I live in Texas

Where this occurred and it wasn’t at all a surprise.
I vote every single time for change, yet we are full speed ahead to a fascist theocracy in this state.
Our civic minded elected officials can’t even enforce a mask mandate. Our government is suing school districts who are trying to keep our kids safe.
My world consists of this. Day to day reality that we are rapidly losing our free will and the people we thought would save us federally aren’t going to.

[Freddie]

8. But our institutions allow that loud minority to control the country

NONE of this would have happened if we had actual majority rule. And we can’t change it because of the very same institutions that ensure minority rule (the EC, the Senate, the filibuster, the 2/3 states requirement for a Constitutional amendment). I don’t think any other country has this problem.

[Mysterian]

11. You hit the nail on the head

There are fundamental flaws in our system of government that must be fixed and could result in a failed state.

Apportioning two senators per state regardless of population is perhaps the worst problem. That and the electoral college are relics of a bygone era.

[Hortensis]

16. RW forces of evil, and I believe that's a valid decription, have been

working for over 5 decades to take over and undermine our institutions. They've been greatly empowered by the explosion in wealth and weaponization of the internet.

Though all through that time they were unable to stop the progression of that moral arc of a people empowered by democracy. Neither misuse of the electoral college nor of the filibuster have been enough to stop the majority from prevailing over the long term.

That's why the conservative white man's party has turned to weaponizing everything and everyone they can to smash our democracy -- before it and the continuing progression of equality inexorably destroy them. They saw the writing on the wall for them many years ago.

Meanwhile, Americans were busy going about their lives -- as they should have been able to, but wrong in believing that the security and freedoms their institutions secured for them would always be there, like gravity. Most still can't imagine losing them. But it's because they haven't yet comprehended the reality of the forces determined to take them away, not because they've all joined them.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

23. This☝️

[Hortensis]

24. :) Oh brother? Stand back and look beyond this "the sky already fell"

nonsense. You have a Democratic president, tied senate, and majority in the house. I presume you are one in the majority that made that happen?

Yes, it's partly true for this moment, but the "exactly right" statement is a perfect example of how a fraction of a truth makes a seductive lie. And there're always plenty for every temperament.

[PatrickforB]

17. And yet, we see overt racism is alive and well, institutional racism is worse than ever,

the holy-rollers in TX have essentially banned abortions, and other Republican states are getting on that bandwagon. Indeed, some Christians are called dominionists and intend to make this country a theocracy, and voter suppression measures are being put in place, or have been, that are specially designed to make harder for people of color to vote.

We had a bunch of treasonous Trumpies storm the Capitol on January 6, terrorized Congress members and staff, and smeared feces on the walls. There are still maybe 14 or 15 million of us that believe in Jewish space lasers, underground pedophile pizza, and that you can take horse dewormer or inhale peroxide with a nebulizer instead of getting a free, easily available vaccine. Because, hey, they are afraid of microchips in the vaccine, courtesy of Bill Gates.

And let's not forget the schools. We have a black high school principal whose contract was not renewed because he had the temerity to post pictures of himself and his white wife on Facebook, and a bunch of Kluxers and neo-nazis - very good people, Trump called them! - who are going into school curriculums to get rid of what they call 'critical race theory' and the rest of us call truth. Because we surely wouldn't want our kids to know about slavery, genocide and conquest - the three pillars of this Republic!

Republicans in the Senate are digging in and trying to prevent Democrats from passing the entirety of Biden's infrastructure bill, and even some so-called 'moderate' Dems are holding up a needed expansion of Medicare. McConnell's power strategy against Obama was to hold up everything, don't do anything, then sit back and blame the Democrats for doing nothing and it worked. They are doing that again now.

All this against the backdrop of the last ditch effort by big oil to delay any effort toward mitigating climate change, and we are well on the way to making this planet uninhabitable with our primacy of the shareholder supply-side capitalism.

This is the only country in the world that has crummy, rationed healthcare with financially crippling copays, healthcare debt, and healthcare bankruptcies. We can throw $1.8 trillion at a forever war, and strip over $3 trillion from our treasury through feckless tax cuts (2017), but we cannot afford universal healthcare that is not tied to employment. Some people on here will even tell you that.

But, hey, this vocal minority of Trumpie Qs sure has 'owned us libs.' Yep, they surely have.

I get that you love this Republic. So do I. But when I see someone say 'this is exactly how we are,' I have to concede this is true as we stand now. But, with you, I believe that if we get rid of the party of lies, obstruction, treason, and death, and put sane people in office, we could become a real light on the hill. Everything our founders wanted this Republic to become and more. We could. We have to stop talking about politics and start talking about good policy. AOC, Katie Porter, and Elizabeth Warren do this. Every day. The policies they advocate would materially help Americans and their families.

As an economist, that is exactly what I tell people. Policies affect you. Deregulation affects you. Tax cuts for the rich affect you. Health insurance lobbies affect you. In fact we can expand that and call it corporate corruption. It affects us every day.

Question is, will we be wise enough as a people to grow up in the way we must to save this republic and the world?

[Hortensis]

28. :) How does an economist measure every glass as dirty and

mostly empty? Are there special algorhithms for that school of thought?

Good grief, of course our healthcare isn't "crummy and rationed." A large majority of us have access to some of the best healthcare on the planet, and all the rest capable of seeking it to basic healthcare. This forum alone is full of new fear that healthcare they expect and are entitled to might not be available if hospitals are filled with Covid patients. One of our members came back from Europe for vaccination available to everyone here, but delayed ("rationed" ) there.

Btw, humanity's answered your question many times as we've continued to grow -- as best it can be answered in the middle of a long, ongoing process. But the overall direction has overwhelmingly been toward increasing the rights and wellbeing of the individual.

As a reminder, before Covid, the average planetwide lifespan had risen to the late 70s (!!!!!!!!) due increased wellbeing, and there's no reason to assume it won't be again, and continue to improve. Even with the planet's new ultrawealthy classes sucking up all the new wealth they could, the percent of humanity living in extreme poverty had shrunk to an estimated 1%, and people around the planet are dedicating their lives to shrinking it further.

Perspective allows us to be realistically brave, even when reality doesn't look so good, and keeps us from getting lost in scary moments. Imo, unsupportable negativism is right up there with hiding under the covers as a refuge from fear or responsibility. And often much the same thing.

[PatrickforB]

38. I have a really good job and have worked there for over 30 years.

For this entire time, my employer has supplied health insurance coverage through a well-known HMO.

You can tell me how great that is all you want, but the reality is that my healthcare package, which this year alone has cost me personally just under $15,000, is the result of a policy that needs to be changed. And that's me. My employer has paid in over $12,000 for this HMO. So the total cost this year for me, my spouse and my employer has been ~$27,000.

As to it being rationed, consider this:
-Try having your spouse wake up every morning weeping with pain and have your HMO make you wait five months to even see a surgeon.

-Try knowing your spouse will need surgery and your out of pocket maximum copay per year is $4,000, and spend a couple of years saving up for that. On the day when she was having the surgery in question, her nurse said his mother in Canada had to (gasp) wait six months for the same surgery, and wasn't that just horrible, awful and terrible? I replied that since our copay for the surgery was $4 large, she'd had to wait over a year while I saved up the money to afford it without going into medical debt.

-My spouse needed hearing aids, and everything beyond $2,000 of the cost of those didn't count against the the $4,000 out of pocket max, so for a basic set I had to get a loan for $1,200.

-And my dental package has a yearly max of $1,500 worth of treatment. That's one crown and you're done. After paying out the $4,000 and taking out the additional loan for $1,200, on top of a couple other unplanned expenses, I lost a crown. Boom. More debt. I had to borrow another $650.

So Hortensis, this year I have spent just under $15,000 on healthcare. The surgeon we had to wait five months to see, by the way, really was a good actor. He pretended to care. He really did. But he won't do the surgery because this HMO is strictly evidence based and the tear in her rotator cuff didn't look bad enough in the MRI and X-ray to merit surgery.

But he did authorize an ultrasound guided cortisone shot, which we had to drive nearly 100 miles to get, and you'll be happy to know that my wife isn't crying as much lately because it took the edge off the pain.

So, let me correct you, please: In my experience, my healthcare is crummy and rationed, and I do have to pay financially crippling copays. In addition, I have, in fact, had to incur medical debt.

See, I'm talking about policy. Somehow we decided in this nation in spite of the fact politicians in both parties tried to get universal healthcare that is not tied to employment through at least 2/3 of the last century. Nixon tried, for gosh sake. But we don't have that. Why, Hortensis? Because of the doctrine of shareholder primacy. Profits. We have allowed the profit motive to be imposed on health care. These insurance companies that cover us necessarily hold profit above patient welfare because they have to if they are publicly traded. And even if they are nonprofit, they strive to retain maximum earnings, often denying care that is needed, and subjecting people to long wait times, or to unnecessary tests to keep from getting sued.

For everyone like me who says we ought to take the profit motive out of healthcare, including dental and vision, we have a group of well-paid lobbyists from health insurance companies and HMOs, who are afraid the government will negotiate down costs, even though numerous studies have shown that the prices of certain procedures vary wildly between hospitals, and there is also variance between what insurance A is charged as opposed to insurance B.

So please do not patronize me by telling me how great my healthcare is. I would cheerfully pay a whole bunch more in income tax and not have to worry about being wheeled through the accounting office to make sure I can 'handle' the copay (yes this has happened, but to be fair the guy wheeled a cart into the ER with a laptop and asked the question. Seriously).

In addition, Hortensis, right now, according to the US Census American Community Survey 1 Year Estimates, there are 29.6 million Americans who have no health care coverage, and of these, 16.8 million are employed.

Not too good by anyone's standards. Certainly not mine. Sure if you own stock in United Health UNH, you have seen your shares go from $136 in 2016 to $407 at the latest close. Great return on your investment, really spectacular. In the meantime, while shareholders are experiencing absolutely WONDERFUL profits, the patients are getting more and more and more of the cost of care passed on to them.

So, Hortensis, healthcare in America is NOT the best in the world, not everyone has access to it, it is rationed in terms of maximum out of pocket copays, and yearly caps on treatment in many cases. Too many have no healthcare coverage at all, and most of us count the pennies to make sure we can afford it if we need to actually use it. Our system is lousy, broken, and needs an overhaul. The problem, to my mind, is healthcare is a public good, and we have, through the greed of a few, imposed the profit motive on it, and that has proven a mistake. Not for investors but for patients.

[Hortensis]

39. Well, I guess it explains your attitude. I'm sorry you've been

unable to improve your health insurance or your practitioners.

I doubt it'd change things for you, or raise American healthcare out of its third world slough in your mind, but for what it's worth Democrats are trying to add hearing, vision, and dental to Medicare. They of course really need to be added to national health insurance available to all, but please note that we would have done that long ago if we'd created national health insurance...long ago. Like in the 1990s when Democrats were busy doing just that but most Americans decided they were too satisfied with what they had to change it.

Ultimately it's always up to us. When too many set their standards low, that's what they get, and when the stakes are big too often everyone has to live with it.

[PatrickforB]

40. Yeah, I hear that. I really felt sorry for Hillary in the early 90s.

She worked so hard, tried to get everyone to the table, and as a result we had a massive propaganda campaign by for profit healthcare and big pharma to change the dialog from extend healthcare to everyone to socialized medicine and long waits and not being able to choose your own doctor.

That was a horror. It really was, and Clinton was also systematically demonized by really well funded right-wing propaganda organs. In her words, there was, in fact, a vast right-wing conspiracy. There was.

So yeah, sorry if I was out of line in my reply to you in any way. And I DO applaud the Democrats trying to add hearing, vision and dental to Medicare. That would be outstanding, as would lowering the age of Medicare eligibility to 60 or even 55. People in this age band, myself included, are very vulnerable to getting laid off and replaced with someone younger and less expensive, and getting sick and having to literally go bankrupt with healthcare debt.

But then you get guys like Manchin saying he is not willing to do any expansion on Medicare until we fix what we have.

Sigh.

[Hortensis]

42. And then I get...quietly enraged. I try to be realistic, Patrick, to accept that

different people want different things, but with so much so close, so wonderfully doable, and so needed... This should still be one of the generations when we get to accomplish more than just the usual recent strugglinig slowly ahead.

Sleep well.

[certainot]

33. americans just need to stop ignoring 1500 coordinated radio stations

democracy can't work until we fix that

[certainot]

30. i agree. ignoring talk radio continues to be the biggest political mistake in history. much of

the regression and lack of progress and growth of radical republicanism is a direct result of that ignorance by progressive and dem orgs and leaders. we even let 87+ universities support 260 + xlimbaugh stations while they sell global warming and covid denial, voter suppression, excuse racism, defund public ed, attack dem politicians, etc

if trump/putin/gop paid $1000/hr for radio 1200 stations x 15 hrs/day are worth $90/week or $5Bil/year - for 30 years. every time dems are on track to do something good the cons in the think tanks yawn, design a new PR campaign to distort, lie, distract, run it out of limbaugh's ass (600 of the loudest stations) and within hours it's blasting from 1500 radio stations for as long as it takes.

how many protestors is one blowhard with a giant megaphone worth? that's why we're here, more than any other single factor. yet media and political leaders ignore it and the ignorant blame zukerberg or human nature and 'reps without backbone' while letting a few hundred coordinated ignorant racist asshole liars hide behind call screeners and take free potshots at whoever and whatever they want.

look at manchin and the conservadems - serving global warming denial and sudden 'budget conscious' constituencies that basically flew out of limbaugh's ass. and one day we will find out putin was using limbaugh/talk radio and the dittohead effect since at least 2008, including but not limited to palin for VP, 'cllimategate', 2011 debt default, trump, and COVID denial.

[Grins]

9. "You are what your record says you are." - Bill Parcells

[Ocelot II]

10. Depends on who or what constitutes "we as a nation."

I think the phrase is intended to mean something like "That's not what we as a nation were meant to be." The reality, unfortunately, is that we as a nation have done and continue to do some terrible things, and that a substantial minority of the population has revealed itself to be a collection of straight-up racist assholes. So to argue with respect to some awful thing that has been done or said, "That's not what we are as a nation," is ignoring the fact that even though the majority of us object to that thing, it was done by the nation - which is now largely controlled by a minority that's ok with awful things.

[paleotn]

22. +1000

[pecosbob]

12. "Men and nations behave wisely when they have exhausted all other resources."

[calimary]

35. Well, maybe. We can certainly hope for that before these Dem assholes run out of time.

It makes me think of that cautionary tale about the stubborn guy on his roof as the floodwaters rise. “Oh God, save me! Save me, oh God!” he prays.
Boat comes by. “Hey mister! Climb aboard! Let’s get outta here!”
Man: “No! God will save me! Save me, oh God!”
Floodwaters keep rising. Now they’re not only at roof-level, he’s ankle-deep up there.
Another boat comes by. “Hey, you! The flood’s rising more! We gotta evacuate! Get in!”
Man: “NO! God will save me! Save me, oh God!”
As the floodwaters rise up to his waist, here comes a rescue chopper, on one last look before evacuating, themselves. “Hey, mister! We’re lowering a rope! Grab it and let’s get outta here!”
Man: again, “NO! God will save me! Save me, oh God!”
The rising water level soon is carrying him away and he drowns. Gets up to the Pearly Gates and realizes he’s DEAD. “Oh God! I believed in You! Why didn’t You save me?!?”
And God said “what? Are you kidding? I sent you two boats and a helicopter!”

[grantcart]

13. It makes me gag as does "only in America" nonsense

House burns down, neighbors take in family, observer remarks with tears in his eyes "only in America do you find such kindness".

In reality America is the only place where a teenager can hav a broken down car and approach a house for help and get shot on the porch.

[Gore1FL]

14. See also: "Those aren't Christians" nt

[paleotn]

20. Who are "we" anyway? In reality, we're a conglomeration of different peoples....

tied together by a common language. I use to add a basic set of common ideas to that, but roughly 30% of "we" have ditched the old, American ethos and opted for an unholy amalgam of theocracy and fascism. Mainly because they fear loosing control of everything to other segments of "we." "Who we are as a nation" really depends on who you're talking to. Not since the Civil War have the differences between "who we are" been greater. Maybe even worse than the Civil War. We're at an inflection point in the experiment, with the final outcome still much in doubt.

Sometimes I hope our experiment in self governance survives. Other times I feel that a divorce is the best outcome, Vlad Putin's fantasy be damned.

[dlk]

21. It's who we have, in many ways, become

[peppertree]

26. It is, as Stephen King might put it, the dark half

Countries - like people - all have one.

[dchill]

27. Amusing? How about frustrating and nauseating?

And really infuriating!

[halfulglas]

29. I've stopped being amused by those statements.

The speaker is saying NOT ME but yes, it is US unfortunately.

[Silent3]

31. It bugs me a bit too, but I guess you have to think of it as an aspirational declaration...

...rather than a factual one. I don't fault Biden or other Democrats for using such phrases.

[PSPS]

32. Beyonce

From 12/06/2017:

Last night, Beyoncé surprised football player Colin Kaepernick when she showed up to present him with the Muhammad Ali Legacy Award at the annual Sports Illustrated Sportsperson of the Year Award Show, and made an important point that despite our nation's deep history with slavery and black oppression, protesting racism is not protesting America. "It's been said that racism is so American, that when we protest racism, some assume we are protesting America," she said.

[traitorsgalore]

36. Death cult, war profiteering, seditionist, science denying, racist hillbilly, predatory insurance

nation in which a person only has "rights" if they're heavily lawyered-up.

[pwb]

37. We are better than that some say

when we try to stand up to pukes by being like them. I say be just as nasty as they are.

[KentuckyWoman]

41. This nation was built on slavery and genocide.

Toss in corruption, theft, and pretty much anything to hold down non wealthy white men. Even toward other whites, they will send the lower classes off to die in war in a heartbeat to protect wealthy white money. It is even worse ... vastly worse ... for anyone who was or is not white.

I say this even as I believe in the basic goodness of humans. Given a real chance... we will come through for each other.