My employer laid down the last law today on vaccinations

[dflprincess]

A couple months ago it was announced that all employees, even those working remotely, would have to provide proof of both Covid and influenza vaccinations by November 1 or provide proof of a medical or religous reason for not getting them (not just taking an employee's word for not getting vaccinated). Employer has several influenza vaccination clinics scheduled at several locations through the end of October. This can be done on company time. Lists of where to get a Covid shot were also provided.

Today it was made clear, anyone who has not complied as of November 1 will be put on an unpaid 30 day leave. If they are still unvaccinated (or haven't proved there is a reason not to be) as of December 1 they will be considered to have resigned. And I assume if they are considered to have resigned, the company will fight any attempts to collect unemployment.

[Clash City Rocker]

1. If it's a national company, tell us who so we can support it

[dflprincess]

3. It is not national, mostly just Minnesota with a little expansion in the region.

nt

[PSPS]

16. We can figure it out by the process of elimination. We'll start by eliminating mypillow

[dflprincess]

32. Good guess!

[Tommymac]

76. + BWAAHAAHAAHAA nt

[Bev54]

22. Seems to give them more time than they deserve. If they already let them know months ago

should be gone for good by Nov 1

[Ocelot II]

2. Good! So did mine,

but then, that's me, and I've already complied..

[shrike3]

4. Woah. I like.

[GulfCoast66]

5. Mine did as well. For salaried employees it starts Thursday.

They figure 10-15% will leave. Most retiring as it is mainly older white guys resisting(shocking, I know).

I see it as a win/win. All my peers vaccinated and the craziest of the trumpers gone. I’m thinking the company knows that as well.

Depending on which Union they are in the hourly employees have 6 more weeks.

[Hortensis]

66. Huh! Widespread early retirement of trumpists/other anti-socials?

That's what I'm assuming, more in red areas of course. Their transfer from the work force to retirement should be big enough to have broad societal effects. Wonder what they'll be.

[kwijybo]

73. I'm anti-social, and I resent being lumped in with Trumpists.

[Hortensis]

75. Oh, but I said "other," and clearly you're a very different, high functioning sort. :)

"Anti-social behaviours are actions that harm or lack consideration for the well-being of others. It has also been defined as any type of conduct that violates the basic rights of another person and any behaviour that is considered to be disruptive to others in society."

[SouthernDem4ever]

105. So moronic

Let's retire and play russian roulette with death! Sounds like a lot of fun.

[drray23]

6. same here

by December 8th if you are not vaccinated you will placed on leave without pay. By January 6th you will be fired.

[Groundhawg]

7. I'm vaxxed but I like freedom of choice.

[efhmc]

10. They have a choice. They can go bye bye.

[Hekate]

19. Amen

[FreeState]

18. Spreading a deadly disease isn't not a choice n/t

[ShazzieB]

26. Not a valid or acceptable one, for sure!

[tosh]

31. Sure,

the employer made its choice.

[ZonkerHarris]

35. Viruses don't respect human's personal choices.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. It's an airborne disease.

The person an unvaccinated person infects has no choice and thus it violates the harm principle.

[Dorian Gray]

57. Me too

I choose to celebrate and support a company that cares about the health of its employees.

[lark]

58. OK, choose to endanger people and you don't work - simple. n/t

[GulfCoast66]

64. I like freedom of choice as well.

Some choose not to work for an employer who requires the vaccine. Simple.

[RevBrotherThomas]

65. They have freedom of choice...

They are NOT free from the consequences of their choice.

F**k around. Find out.

[lagomorph777]

67. You are, of course, free to choose unemployment.

Have a nice stay at DU.

[Hortensis]

68. They were always free to avoid spreading this deadly virus

to others, notably before vaccines were developed by self isolation and rigorous masking and distancing. Now, by the same.

The depraved indifference to life posturing as "freedom" has already killed an official 693,000 Americans.

[augyboston]

72. You've got to be kidding!

This is in no way about personal freedom, it's a deadly virus that mutates if there are enough hosts for it to do so. Personal freedom ends when it can kill others - end of story.

Besides they all have a choice, get vaccinated or lose your job. A or B - that's a choice.

[Dukkha]

82. I do not

Because 30% of the people will always make the wrong choice.

[AZLD4Candidate]

88. Your freedom of choice ends at your employer's front door and my property line.

[obamanut2012]

97. They have a choice

No one is forcing them to do anything.

Folks have to attend the mandatory sexual harassment class, either. They will be terminated, and that was their choice.

Choose to not wear a required uniform? Terminated, by your choice.

[mzmolly]

99. Employers have choices

too.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

101. They do have a choice -- to get fucking fired!

[uponit7771]

106. I LIKE FREEDOM TOO !!! Freedom from paying the bills of the "free" unvaxed

[appalachiablue]

107. +1

[AllaN01Bear]

8. united airlines has just fired 600 people for not vaxxing.

[ZonkerHarris]

36. Did they drag them off the planes? Oh it's just the passengers they do that to.

[Hortensis]

70. Even better perspective: OVER 99% of United employees are vaccinated.

Employer mandates are working big time.

[ProfessorGAC]

102. Yep!

All but 600 out of more than 74,000 wouldn't vax!
Losing a paycheck makes people think twice about empty principles & misinformed nonsense reasons.

[Silent3]

9. I'm all for getting as many people vaxxed as possible, but it does seem a little odd...

...that even remote employees are included. Unless, of course, part of what the company is trying to do is protect itself against higher medical insurance costs.

[underpants]

15. They may eventually come into the office

but also for uniformity I’d guess

[dflprincess]

34. I think it's safer to do it across the board so no one can whine they're being treated differently

and the day may come when we all get called back to the office, though right now it's looking like we'll have the option of working remotely if that's what we choose to do. No decisions on that before January 1.

[calimary]

48. So do I. I'm sorry, this just seems stupid-simple.

We’re dealing with a KILLER disease. From which people can and do die.

I don’t understand why there should be ANY exceptions.

Vax or bust.

[Evolve Dammit]

86. I can't believe we even have to still have the conversation. How many million un-vaxxed?

[yonder]

83. Spot on, yes.

[Hekate]

20. The office my husband no longer works from requires being vaxxed to enter. One of the guys ...

… who works remotely (as hubby does) dropped in the other day. When questioned he admitted that he was not vaccinated, didn’t intend to be, and said, “I’m already here. What are you gonna do about it?”

Indeed.

What they did was phone the boss, who phoned him and reamed him a new one. I think the company’s policy was made clear.

In any case, avoiding higher medical insurance costs is considered good business practice. Every year my husband and I re-affirm to the insurer that we don’t smoke and we do wear seat belts.

[ZonkerHarris]

39. When they ream you a new one what happens to the old one?

[Hekate]

51. I always figured it was left lying on the ground as the person limped off in pain...

…to reassess their life-choices.

[LiberalFighter]

21. Yes there is higher medical costs as a factor I'm sure.

[dixiegrrrrl]

30. If a home worker gets Covid, s/he is most likely gonna be sick for some time

Which means their work is not being done. If they die from Covid, a lot of important info. dies with them.
Working in an office, much info gets shared just by day to day conversation, quick meetings,etc.
If I'm out sick, someone in the office can easily cover for me, they have ready access to my "stuff".

Now multiply that times how many workers a company has, and their chances of getting sick.

[obamanut2012]

98. Why should remote staff not have to adhere to company policies

[Silent3]

104. Like I said, I'm happy to convince more people to get vaxxed...

...but it's obviously not the same set of risks being dealt with. On site people can infect each other, remote people can't.

What the two groups do have in common, however, in the eyes of an employer, is insurance costs and risk of absence from work.

[bullwinkle428]

11. I've yet to hear anything like that from my employer, who happens to be a

large, multinational corporation. And quite frankly, I'm getting increasingly pissed off that they are not laying down the law.

I'm losing sleep right now, wondering if I should take this fight up with my supervisors to let them know that I'm uncomfortable with the company's apparent philosophy of "personal choice" when it comes to vaccination.

I'm a few days away from 34 years with the organization, and for the first time in probably forever, am seriously considering "taking my talents elsewhere", to paraphrase LeBron James, and find some place that values the safety of ALL employees.

[Hortensis]

71. Understandable for sure. Could they be uncertain about the level

of support for action among their employees? Unless they've been very firm about a "personal choice" ideology, though, I wouldn't assume their past position predicted the future. It's in business's interest of course to get people vaccinated, and a lot more will follow the leaders as that becomes a norm.

[Scrivener7]

12. I'm surprised they included the flu shot in that.

[soldierant]

24. It's a pretty good idea.

I'm allergic to eggs myself, but there are ways for me to get one anyway. Being retired and stay-at-home, not family, and not exposed to any school age children or their parents, I have not taken one for years. But if i needed to, they do make an egg-free flu shot, and another alternative is taking it in smaller doses over the course of a few weeks.

[dflprincess]

41. As you're allergic, you could get a medical exemption for the flu shot

I have no idea if that might extend to Covid (I know eggs aren't involved with that) but if your doctor thought you shouldn't get it, that would be accepted.

[soldierant]

45. I've had 2 Moderna shots for CoViD

and believe me, I checked out the "inactive" ingredients as best I could first, since that's always where the allergens are in any medication - at least for me, and I sus pect for a lot of people. Yes, I likely could get a medical exemption on the flu one if I had to. I've never had to Actually, when I was working with parents of school age children, it was my doctor (and his staff) who helped me out by arranging for me to take the vaccine in smaller doses, and take anti-allergy meds with each dose.

I had practically zero reaction to the Moderna, incidentally.

[wnylib]

52. Egg allergy here, too.

I tried an alternative flu shot one year and had trouble breathing afterward. Not sure why. No other reaction so I did not get an epinephrine shot but did take an antihistamine and used my inhaler. Tried a different shot next time and got the flu. Have not had a flu shot since. Retired, not exposed to school age children either.

CDC guidelines claim that even people with egg allergies can get the regular flu shot if they only get hives as a reaction to eggs. They also say that even people who have had anaphylactic reactions to eggs can get the regular flu shot if they do it in a medical facility with a doctor to monitor them who knows how to treat a severe reaction. Don't think I would risk it.

[soldierant]

54. More like one giank hive comprising the

entire upper arm, red, hot, and agonizing. For days.

My theory is you'd be safer eating an egg than injecting it, even just into a muscle and not the blood stream, because that bypasses the stomach acid which might give you a fighting chance. But I'm not a medical professional, so that may be BS.

If I had had an anaphylactic reaction I certainly would not risk it. However, I am a delayed reactor and have never had any reaction as serious as anaphylaxis. I am aware that is subject to change without notice.

[wnylib]

55. I share your belief that injecting

egg protein is likely worse than eating an egg. I have not ever had the regular flu shot and don't expect to ever have it.

I have not had an anaphylactic reaction to eggs, mostly severe abdominal pain and bloating. But I have had anaphylactic reactions to other substances. It is very scary. Would not do anything to risk it.

[Ms. Toad]

28. I've got issues with that, too.

There is a major difference between mandating a vaccine that is 75-95% effective for an illness that has killed nearly 700,000 in a little over a year - with unknown long term health consequences for those who survive, with an R0 of around 8 - and mandating one for an illness that kills an average of 20-40,000/year using a vaccine that has not topped 50% effectiveness since around 2013, with an R0 of between 1 and 2.

In a business that does not require working in close/medical contact with others, mandating influenza vaccination is inappropriate. Especially if they are not requiring vaccinations for mumps, measles, rubella, chicken pox, and all of those other contagious (in some cases much more contagious) illnesses.

[dflprincess]

42. The other diseases you mentioned are not currently an issue as there have been no outbreaks

though you make a good point & where I work is a healthcare group (I do not have patient contact) & I may have to see if I can find out if there is any policy regarding those illnesses.

Influenza is very contagious as is RSV and there is a lot of RSV infections in this area (even among adults) as well as Covid there is a lot of concern about the number & severity of respiratory illness that will be "going around" this winter.

[Ms. Toad]

44. The disease has killed 14 times as many people as flu does in a given year,

the disease is 4 to 8 times as infectious, and the flu vaccine is half as effective (at best). In addition, the systemic involvement, long-term complications, unpredictability associated with COVID don't even compare on any level.

COVID definitely warrants a mandate; influenza, not so much.

As for outbreaks - there was virtually no outbreak last year. There is none now, and if people are doing what they need to do in order to avoid getting COVID there will be none this year.

[Scrivener7]

61. Also, that 20,000 to 40,000 number from the CDC is based on basically nothing.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/comparing-covid-19-deaths-to-flu-deaths-is-like-comparing-apples-to-oranges/

The CDC takes the number of all deaths from respiratory issues - including pneumonia - then guesses how many of those were from flu.

Very few states track actual flu deaths. Connecticut is one that does. In a very bad year, they get about 200 flu deaths. And they are a very populous state, but to be generous, let's extrapolate that out to 50 states, and you get 10,000 flu deaths on a bad year.

That jives with what the article is saying:

In the last six flu seasons, the CDC’s reported number of actual confirmed flu deaths—that is, counting flu deaths the way we are currently counting deaths from the coronavirus—has ranged from 3,448 to 15,620,

I agree with you that mandating the flu vaccine is not appropriate.

[dflprincess]

108. I did a little snooping around today & found out that for years

Last edited Thu Sep 30, 2021, 04:07 PM - Edit history (1)

"patient facing" employees are given a blood test that looks for MMR, polio, and chicken pox antibodies & a TB test before they even start work. If they turn up negative for any of these they are given the vaccination (or the offer of employment is withdrawn if the vaccine is refused, same old medical & religious exemptions apply). Apparently this policy hasn't been an issue. In recent years they have been expected to get annual influenza vaccinations.

Those of us who work in the corporate offices have been exempt from this policy as these illnesses have not been a problem among adults in office settings for more years than anyone remembers.

Update: the person who checked this out for me went back and checked her own records, not only did she have to take a blood test, she had to supply a written record of her vaccinations.

[cadoman]

13. are employers getting too clever with this "get vaccinated or you have resigned" trick?

I worry this will come back to bite them. If you're going to fire someone for cause, fire them for cause. If you're going to lay someone off due to business conditions, lay them off so they can collect unemployment.

This seems to fall pretty clearly under case 1 (fire them for cause). What legal/financial benefit are they accruing from trying to pass this off as the employee having quit? Is my viewpoint on this being distorted by having lived in at-will states? What states could they collect unemployment after being fired for cause?

[soldierant]

29. There are circumstances under which one can get unemployment if one resignsor a least there are in

or at least there are in some states. One such is if you are able to prove (as opposed to just whinig about) intolerable working conditions. My husband succeeded with that in the early nineties, and I helped him quantify the claim so it was clear what the conditions were (being expected to do more than one person could possibly do in the time allotted in his case.) Incidentally my state is an at-will state.

But, yeah, I don't see anyone being able to claim unemployment in this case, unless they are, for instance, a transplant receiver or have a condition equally drastic.

In a state which is not an at-will state, I suppse the union could sue on their behalf if they were fired for cause. That may be the answer.

[dflprincess]

37. If the employee quits they usually cannot collect unemployment

I would guess that may be part of the reason they're doing it that way.

This is when "at will" employment laws will come back to bite the conservatives who liked that idea so much.

[hadEnuf]

38. It appears that they are making it a condition of employment.

New rules, a notice and a time limit to comply. I'm sure they've run this by their law firms too.

[tosh]

40. I (an employer)...

never threatened to fire anyone. But I did tell my one single holdout (out of 12 employees) that anyone who chose not to be vaccinated but got sick with COVID would not be eligible for extended paid sick leave.

That was all it took and we are now100% fully vaccinated.

Goal achieved!

[lagomorph777]

69. I think they'll be on firmer ground after the government mandate rules are written.

[Xolodno]

14. My company hasn't mandated it yet. With that said...

...all offices nationally are closed until further notice. Some offices permanently closed as working from home proved to be extremely viable. And when leases are up in other places, they will look at shrinking our foot print.

Also, they recently sent out an email with a link about your vaccination status. That pretty much tells what is coming.

[Random Boomer]

85. Same here

I work for a global consulting company and US offices aren't officially open yet, but they're taking steps to make them "accessible" to whoever wants to go in. Pre-requisite, however, is training on the covid precautions (masking, testing, distancing).

There's no vaccine mandate, but they've surveyed the workforce to see who is vaccinated. I'm curious to see how that informs the conditions of office re-openings in 2022.

[underpants]

17. Dayum. My employer is still bending over backwards

and allowing for weekly testing. I’m supposed to do some of the tests but haven’t had to yet.

[LiberalFighter]

23. I usually do my flu shots in late November or early December

figuring it to cover better during the worse part.

But I talked to pharmacist in my plan and he said October is best time to get the shot. As a retiree, I want to absolutely avoid the flu.

[MyMission]

60. I was told years ago, by MD I trusted

To get the flu shot "when the goblins come out", around Halloween.

I note that flu vaccines (like covid vaccines) seem to be most powerful for 6 months.
If flu didn't die off in warmer months we'd probably need boosters for that too.

[Delphinus]

63. That's interesting

My doctor's office just held a flu clinic and I got mine a few days ago. I will remember October next year.

[maxsolomon]

25. I'd love my firm to do the same.

I was shocked to find out there are unvaxxed employees, considering where we are and what we do.

[ShazzieB]

27. My husband's company isn't mandating it so far, but they are offering a discount on health insurance

to those who are vaccinated. So that's a start, at least.

[brush]

33. It's going around. Joe Biden got this started with his gov. employee mandate and his encouraging...

corporations to do the same. This just might be how we beat covid. The unvaccinated who retire or refuse, who cares? Let them eat up their savings with no job and infect each other and find out what happens when you get intubated.

[Calista241]

43. They can't 'consider you to have resigned' from a legal standpoint.

Employees either resign, or they are fired. If it’s involuntary, then an employee is legally terminated.

Something like this would be considered as being fired for cause. Noncompliance with company policy is more than likely spelled out in the employee handbook.

[mockmonkey]

46. My companies deadline was today.

Show proof of vaccination or do weekly testing. They even had the National Guard here giving shots. My boss isn't getting the shot because "Jesus".

[Hekate]

53. Rachel informed her audience that the Pope has just made vaccination mandatory for Vatican......

…workers. Non-compliant folks will have their pay docked, too.

Also 10 Hail Marys and 1 Our Father.

Okay, I made the last part up.

[lindysalsagal]

47. Well done.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

50. Religious exemptions are totally bullshit.

Except possibly for Christian Scientists, which is a nutcase cult to begin with.

There are some medical reasons not to get the vaccine, but I suspect there are far fewer valid medical reasons than most people think.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

56. My law firm and a number of other law firm are requiting vaccinations for COVID

I do not think that we are requiring flu shots but I got one last week

[IbogaProject]

59. I'm vaxxed w pfizer but never had flu shot

I'm vaxxed w pfizer but I've never had a single flu shot in my 35 years as an adult.

The flu shot is grown on animal cells over a very rushed schedule based on a guess of what will be circulating based on what is going around in the summer in Taipei during the monsoon season.

Canadian health did a study comparing people in their 50s who had at least 5 flu shots over ten years vs those that didn't.
The flu vaxxed cohort had much more serious health issues. The challenge is there could be a sample effect where the ones who go to Dr more are more sick ten years later.

The COVID shots, while based on a new technology have gone through a full 3 phase study.

[Scrivener7]

62. I get every vaccine out there. I'm happy that my doc told me it's time for the shingles shot.

But I only get the flu shot when I am working with medically fragile people.

The accepted wisdom on the prevalence of flu deaths is questionable.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15905347

[drmeow]

74. it could also be

That people with more pre-existing risks were more likely to get the flu shot. Unless they statistically controlled for pre-vaccine health status and co-morbitities as well as age, you can't really draw cause-effect conclusions from an observational study (and even with these controls your conclusions are going to be iffy). Was the study published in a peer-reviewed journal? I'd be interested to see it.

[dflprincess]

78. Having had influenza in my late 20s

and it being the sickest I've ever been (except with measles, no vaccine then) I started getting them annually in my 30s. So far, no ill affects and no influenza.

A little trivia, Jonas Salk was one of the lead scientists on the first flu vaccine in 1945.

[USALiberal]

94. Link to your study????

[IronLionZion]

77. The religious exemption has been abused too much

all the major organized religions support the vaccine. It's mainly fringe extremists against.

[wryter2000]

79. Good for them

However, religious exemptions shouldn't work. There are too many nutjob "preachers" who'll give anyone an excuse.

[democrattotheend]

80. Including fully remote employees seems unreasonable

Unless they sometimes come to the office. Otherwise I can't see a health and safety justification, and it seems like an undue overreach into employees' medical decisions. I understand the push to get everyone vaccinated but this seems like a dangerous precedent to set.

[Horse with no Name]

84. Do you know how costly it is to the insurance company to pay for

A serious Covid hospitalization?
That cost is passed to the employer who passes it back to us in higher premiums and less coverage.
It is definitely an economic advantage to the company to have vaccinated employees.

[democrattotheend]

89. But that same logic could be used for employers to control other medical and lifestyle decisions

People who are overweight are more likely to need expensive medical care, but companies are not allowed to require them to lose weight or even charge more for health insurance. Ditto for heavy drinkers, people who spend too much time sunbathing, drive motorcycles, etc. But I don't think most of us would be in favor of employers regulating what employees can eat or how much they can weigh or whether they can use a motorcycle. Allowing employers to control aspects of employees' lives that don't directly implicate the safety of the workplace is a really dangerous precedent, IMO.

[leftstreet]

91. Yeah, showing a negative test should be enough

for occasionally entering the workplace

And requiring a flu shot? wt actual f

This is a horrifying precedent. If it was happening under Trump, DU would melt the fuck down

[USALiberal]

95. Why dangerous??

[Demovictory9]

81. getting tough!!

[genxlib]

87. I see several mild objections to including the at-home workers in this mandate

It makes sense to me to have them included for HR purposes.

I could easily see a scenario where an anti-vaxxer would demand to work from home in order to stay employed. If that wasn't otherwise OK with the employer, it puts them in a terrible place to enforce the policy.

Better to make it apply to everyone.

[OverBurn]

90. Awesome!

[appleannie1]

92. I wish all companies would do that.

[USALiberal]

93. Why not list the company name? No one will know it was you

[brewens]

96. I'm not donating blood platelets because I know the staff at the blood center I'm retired

from, and only one out of about nine is vaccinated. It's a small remote center 100 miles from the regional HQ. Up there they are much better about the vax. They are in Washington and mine is in Lower Dumbfuckistan (Idaho).

I'd be going in and giving them three units ever two weeks like I have for about 15 years, if they were all vaccinated. There is a critical shortage of platelets too. Masks are required, so that probably keeps the COVIDiots out of the place at least. Of course MAGAt's aren't real big on donating anyway.

[marybourg]

100. Have you told management your reason ?

[brewens]

103. I told their supervisor who is the vaccinated one. She's my best friend there. I'm not saying

anything to anyone else. If asked I will just say COVID risk, not specifically that those staff are not vaccinated. Any higher up management can figure that out for themselves. A couple of them don't like talking to me.