Joe Manchin is right

[Edwcraig]

Because the Republican Party is "conservative" does that mean the Democratic Party has to be liberal.

The reason the Democratic Party has survived as the oldest political party in the world, is that it is a party that welcomes into its ranks ideas of all. That does not say it welcomes evil racists and those advocating the destruction of our constitutional democracy, The Democratic Party it is; however, a Party of process not a party dogma.

That is to say that unlike Republicans all ideas and policies, are not viewed only through the lens of any dogman such as conservatism. The Democratic Party debates and discusses all issues. Sometimes decisions are conservative (declare war on Japan) many times, because it is the right thing to do, for the majority of Americans Democratic policies and positions are progressive.

One rule shared by all political parties is a that arithmetic matters. No political party can survive if it does not act based on the belief of the majority of its members. And regardless of the morality of the issue, unless the political party does the political hard work to convince a solid majority American's to vote in support of the Party, there is no majority political power in the state and federal legislatures that can result in action.

Unfortunately, we progressives have not done the work to deliver our message to the majority of Americans. Yes, we won in 2020. (by only 40,000 votes we secured the Presidency) ( 47% of white women still voted for Trump) We do not have a majority in the US Senate. It is 50 Republicans, 48 Democratic with 2 independents that usually vote Democratic. We LOST seats in the House and Bidens approval rating is under 50% and getting worse. We progressive want to beat our chests and declare victory and proclaim power that we do not have. This is just political malpractice and the result of our political failure could mean the end of our Democracy.

it is not Manchin's job to promote the progressive agenda. It is the responsibility of progressives. And we are not doing a very good job. We need to get back out in the street. Do a better job with social media. Press the media to support our issues. Go to the school board meetings. Do our own march in the streets. Demonstrate our political power. Unit behind Biden.

SAVE AMERICA.


[link:

Link to tweet

|

[WHITT]

1. Only Problem Wit Dat

Manchin previously stated he was on board with $4 TRILLION in infrastructure spending. Even if you combined the so-called 'bipartisian' infrastructure spending of $550b and the Dems 3.5t of human infrastructure spending, that's $4.05t.

You're overlooking the fact that Manchin LIES like a Repub, and spews numerous bogus Repub talking points.

Manchin is WRONG.

[uponit7771]

9. So it sounds like Manchin 100% reneged, I was on the side of Manchin acting like Collins and ...

... raising "concerns" give some buck back for the cameras and eventually getting peripheral concessions voting with democrats anyway.

That's out the door if he agreed to the 4 trillion dollars and just reneged without it material changes.

[FBaggins]

24. Except that it never happened

That's out the door if he agreed to the 4 trillion dollars and just reneged without it material changes.

The evidence for this claim is that Manchin voted for the reconciliation resolution that instructed the budgeting committees to create a budget within certain caps and a top-line cap of $3.5T

The problem with this is that he made clear at that time that he didn't agree with the top-line figure and would only allow the process to move forward if it was clear that he wouldn't vote for a final bill that high. And by "made clear" I mean that he produced a detailed document ("agreement" ) and got Schumer to sign it. And it appears to be exactly where he still is... so we can't pretend that he promised something else and is now changing his tune.

Alternatively, there are people pointing to what he favored in January before $2T in stimulus plus $1T in infrastructure... leaving the same net figure (after adjustments for already-deployed funds).

[comradebillyboy]

25. This. In July Manchin lays out his goals in

writing. He's very clear. It appears to me that Chuck Schumer was misrepresenting Manchin's position.

[FBaggins]

27. I'm not sure that it's Schumer misrepresenting

I suppose it's possible - since Manchin felt that he had to release the agreement that almost certainly was never expected to become public. But I think that Sanders/Jayapal and their surrogates have been the most common accusers.

Where Schumer might deserve blame is if he didn't share the document with Sanders to use during the drafting of the plan.

[UCmeNdc]

33. It doesn't matter. Joe Manchin should support Joe Biden.

What does Joe Biden want?

[FBaggins]

36. I can't think of a single president who ever enjoyed unanimity in their party

Senators run on their own platforms. There is no standard that says they have to support anything that the majority of their party (or the leader of the same) wants.

[Bev54]

34. Manchin misrepresented himself, he has pretty much admitted

that his plan was to get his bill through and to stop the progressives bill. He would have talked in tongue to get his bill through, he wants all the glory.

[FBaggins]

35. Not at all

There was no "admission". His position hasn't changed - and many of us have been pointing it out for months now.

It was no secret that his purpose in passing the "bipartisan" bill was to add leverage to knock down the size of the larger bill. It was plain obvious when his partners in the House got Pelosi to commit to a vote by the end of September - right after he had gotten Schumer to agree to no floor action in the Senate prior to October 1st.

I have yet to see any current statement that wasn't entirely consistent with what he has said all along.

For example - I've seen several posts in the last couple of days about Manchin suddenly deciding that he won't vote for a bill that excludes the Hyde amendment (re: abortion funding) - as though this were something that he has been hiding. Yet he's been saying that for years and reiterated it back in January when we took Senate control.

[UCmeNdc]

39. That is the problem. Joe Manchin hasn't given in an inch. So everyone else has.

So now everyone else has the right not to give in an inch more. Because Joe Manchin says he will not budge nothing gets done.

[FBaggins]

40. That's untrue as well

The current Senate bill is virtually unchanged from what the president initially proposed. Sanders wanted something larger, but when the "agreement" was signed to allow a reconciliation up to 3.5 to begin and Manchin was at "no more than $1.5". "Up to 3.5" has changed in Sanders' rhetoric to "no less than 3.5" and I haven't seen any proposal lowering that figure.

[UCmeNdc]

43. No, that is not true, Joe Manchin demanded a lower figure than the starting figure of 6-5 trillion

They came down to 3.5 trillion then Joe Manchin demanded an even lower amount. *1.5 trillion.

[uponit7771]

45. ah ... got it

[FBaggins]

47. There was no such starting figure

Sanders spoke of that number for his initial plan, but didn't include any specifics and it wasn't the president's proposal. It was certainly never true that Manchin implied that he was on board with such a figure.

The president's initial proposal was for about $4.5 - Roughly $1T of which became the infrastructure bill. Leaving the $3.5 that progressives have not moved off of.

"$3.5 was already a compromise" has always been nonsense. A compromise with whom? A recognition that Medicare expansion didn't qualify for reconciliation? That's not a compromise with anything but reality.

If you want to play that game, Manchin obviously started at zero (because he required a deal to even begin reconciliation) and then publicly said that he was at $1T... but could go as high as $1.5

[UCmeNdc]

49. Yes it was the initial figures being tossed around but was dropped due to Joe Manchin saying No

So both sides met at the halfway. Then Joe Manchin went even lower.

[FBaggins]

55. Not at all

It was "dropped" because LOTS of Democrats (including POTUS) did not support it.

It was in no sense an early compromise with Manchin.

So both sides met at the halfway.

Flat untrue. At no time did Manchin meet them at $3.5. This couldn't be clearer... as that figure was first being crafted (before reconciliation even kicked off) Manchin had Schumer sign an agreement that he had no intention of voting for anything above $1.5

[uponit7771]

44. thx

[Demsrule86]

48. No he is right. We progressives have done a crappy job winning hearts and minds...the last

successful effort was Dean's 50 state strategy and for whatever reason, he was shown the door after winning a 60 person majority in the Senate and doing very well in the House. Some waste time primarying Democrats and ceding entire states to the GOP while not taking on Republicans at all. We have to be able to compete in purple and red states/districts. We can't hold a majority any other way...look at the math. If we don't hold the House, the GOP could take a presidential election and throw it into the house where they have 26 out of 50 votes and could get away with 'winning' in ' Congress after losing at the polls...nobody wants to hear this but it is the truth.

Consider the plight of the much-maligned moderates in the house or even the Senate who must get reelected if we want a majority. They gave us a majority and yet or expected to have no say in important legislation. Now I prefer the Progressive stance myself, but fair is fair. Progressives ignore the moderate's election concerns at their peril...progressives may be in deep blue districts and/or states but being in the majority is very difficult and they will get nothing at all. It is especially dangerous now when it really could cost us the Republic. We get what we can and come back for more and accept the fact that we won't get it all.

[Harker]

2. I know a great place to start. n/t

[CentralMass]

3. That is a lame argument when he is one of two Senators blocking

the parties agenda on legislation wildly popular in his state whose residents would greatly benefit from. Particularly when you look at his major campaign funding sources.

[Celerity]

4. It is NOT the progressive agenda, it is the Biden and almost all of the Democratic party's agenda

The actual progressives wanted to spend a total of $10 trillion between the two bills. They met months ago with Biden and dropped way down from $6 trillion and agreed to support Biden's $3.5 trillion. They also agreed to stay 'hands off' on the hard infrastructure bill (the bi-partisan bill) and drop their original $4 trillion proposal.

Manchin and Sinema, working with the Rethugs, helped rip out almost 80% of Biden's new spend from the bi-partisan bill ($2.6 trillion is now only $550 billion in new spend, the other $650 billion is just renewals of programmes already in place for years), yet the progs WILL vote for it as long as they have a concrete agreement on BIDEN's reconciliation bill.


You are pushing RW talking points. This OP is eerily similar to the shitheels at the WSJ's editorial board new Dem hit piece.

We do not have a majority in the US Senate.

Bollocks

also you keep saying

we progressives

This is not the OP an actual progressive would write IMHO, not by a long shot.

[KPN]

15. +++ ... especially the last part.

[imanamerican63]

5. Well, that is not the way I look at it.

The Republican Party hastily dwarfed into a party of inconsiderate jerks and only looks out for their own agenda by destroying our democracy, which got Trump into office and now they may succeed if the Dems doesn’t get the job done and start passing bills.

[lagomorph777]

6. The eagle can't fly with two right wings.

One party has decided to burn the country down.

If the other party doesn't fight them in a unified way, the country burns down.

Joe Manchin is dead wrong. He opposes things that 80% of his voters want.

You don't actually sound like a progressive at all.

[uponit7771]

13. +1, "One party has decided to burn the country down." If we as a country don't recognize this then

... we're not going to last long as even a low index democracy (Canada is higher democracy index than the US right now)

Only 64% of DEMOCRATS think voter suppression is a problem ... to the OPs point that's bad messaging that the number is so low and an indicator that dem pols don't see the vote denial and nullification laws as a threat.

We need some good trouble to get into

[hlthe2b]

7. Seems your subject line is missing a noun...

it starts with a "w" ... Big tent, yes, but at some point, we can't let some members sabotage the greater good.

(I've never been a fan of Russian Roulette)

[Scrivener7]

8. Ugh. No, he isn't right. If you want to "save America" you need to legislate things like

infrastructure and budgets and ELECTION SECURITY. If you don't, you can kiss America as we know it goodbye. And Manchin is blocking those things, simply because he can.

It IS Manchin's job to do the will of the people. America supports Biden's agenda by a large margin.

Manchin is allowing us to be held hostage by the minority. And somehow I feel certain he is enriching himself in the process.

[uponit7771]

10. Democratic party needs better messaging and stop blaming peripheral issues on bad infrastructure

... for outreach to a very diverse coalition.

In this case those it looks like Manchin reneged, that's not an agenda that's just not dealing in good faith

[Mad_Machine76]

16. Better messaging is a frequent complaint

Why is more not being done on this front? And what does that even mean? And how do they get their messaging out? We've sold the public largely on everything we believe in and our policy agenda. The problem is that we need to figure out a plan for overcoming overwhelming right-wing messaging that has an outsized effect on shaping attempts to enact that agenda. We obviously need to vet some candidates better at the state level (to whatever extent we can) so that we don't keep winding up with troublesome elected officials whose sole goal is to obstruct.

[uponit7771]

46. Forum feedback, Social Media and AM radio in rural areas is places dems outright haven't invested

... in with the adequate resources without a doubt.

For instance FM radio and TV in areas where PoC live such as South Texas and Miami Dade which was a fiasco in 2020.

GQP Text book got to Miami Dade early and defined dems as socialist and there was no Dem feed back on radio and on TV for months to a tune of an extra 220,000 voters in that county over 2016.

GQP mobilized voters via in South Texas and Florida while dems stood silent despite warnings lights flashing.

That was NOT happening in CA or AZ , different Hispanic community, but Florida should have been won if we got a general message out BEFORE we got a candidate chosen.

Yes, the GQP messaging infrastructure is easier; they really are only wanting to talking to white America

The majority of feedback of down ballot dems from voters was vague picture of dems platform.

That's messaging

[berni_mccoy]

11. Fuck No! Let's get something very clear: Manchin is sinking BIDEN'S plan

This is not conservadem vs progressive. This is TWO fucking sellouts tanking the President’s plan along with The election next year.

[Mad_Machine76]

12. Manchin does not have to be "liberal" to be a Democrat (true)

but he is neither being a team player nor is he even representing his constituents who- according to polls- largely support the BBB package.

[lagomorph777]

18. 77% of WV support Biden's bill. 80% of Manchin's voters support it.

The only reason I can see for this is he doesn't care about re-election; he is purely in it for the money. Need to toss in earmarks for his big donors.

For example, pay coal companies to build wind farms on their flattened mountains.

[Demsrule86]

51. Well consider if the big donors turn against him and don't support his reelection and possibly help

his opponent, he will likely lose. Unfortunately, Nader and the usual suspects made sure that Gore didn't get elected and Bush among other miserable actions ushered in the Citizens United ruling. The same group with a few new members did the same thing in 2016...and we will pay the price for decades.

[lagomorph777]

52. Don't know WTF Nader has to do with Manchin. But I don't think Manchin cares about votes.

He is grabbing all the cash he can get, planning for retirement.

[Demsrule86]

57. The reason Manchin and other Democrats need all this campaign cash is because Nader beat

Gore who apparently wasn't good enough for some. Bush appointed the justices who helped enact Citizens United which is why every politician must consider donors. It is not just about the votes. He needs the money.

[KPN]

14. Joe Manchin is out of synch with almost every other Democrat in

Congress as well as the President and a vast majority of Democratic Party members and a large majority of the public on BBB! The only way he is “right” is in being right politically of virtually all elected Democrats.

His intransigence could well condemn us to a long period of Republican “majority” gained via voter suppression, legalized election rigging (gerrymandering, State Legislature appointment of electors, etc.), and an antiquated, outdated and oppressive mechanism called the Electoral College. Manchin is entitled to his opinion, but he isn’t right. On matters of this importance, being a team member also means being a team player. He needs to give significantly on his $1-1.5T target.

Your underlying point about Democrats and the Democratic Party bearing some responsibility does, however, have merit.

[Fiendish Thingy]

17. It's not a "progressive agenda" it's Biden's agenda

Supported by progressive and moderate legislators and a majority of Americans, including Republicans.

[lagomorph777]

19. I don't think the OP is an actual progressive.

Very odd post for any Dem, especially a self-proclaimed "progressive"

[Celerity]

23. +1

[Edwcraig]

38. Very od that you would think that being progressive means you do not have to be political

Being a progressive and not having political power is an exercise in futility. I am a Democrat and within the Democratic Party my positions have always been progressive. It is not a requirement for anyone to prove they are Progressive to be a Democrat. it should be a requirement in my opinion for anyone with a political ideology to prove that they have political common sense to be a Democrat. The latter is the problem. The latter my cause us to lose our Democracy.

[lagomorph777]

41. Hmm, I don't think I said anything like that; you may be confusing me with somebody else.

Manchin is dead wrong and I have to wonder why any progressive would think it makes political sense for him to oppose what 77% of his constituents want. That doesn't mean I think politics doesn't matter.

We have to find a way to defeat the obstruction posed by SineManchin. Frankly, I think devious bribery is the most likely to work. For example, put in an earmark for coal or gas companies to build wind farms. He'll get his cut from that.

[Demsrule86]

53. That is exactly what I think...you have to consider the political...and take off the rose colored

glasses and be practical and win elections, or we will not only lose the majority but possibly the Republic.

[Celerity]

22. +1

[C_U_L8R]

20. He'd be a nobody in the GOP

[jcgoldie]

21. ... wing

Hyde Amendment?

[SharonClark]

26. The Republican Party isn't "conservative", it's bat-shit full GQP

and out to hold on to power at any cost to the Democracy.

[ShazamIam]

28. I wouldn't put much stock in this tweet from who? Looks like the Russians prodding division and

the progressives and liberals have no control over what gets in the news feeds so this constant and stupid message, the progressives need to get their message out, is silly. Only the media decides what is news.

For example the media has decided to ignore that memo plan to overturn the election and seize the government. The Eastman memo.
https://www.politicususa.com/2021/09/21/trump-sedition-eastman-memo.html

[pwb]

29. No he is not right.

Liberals are a fringe group of our Democratic Party. This is not Liberal Underground for a reason.

[lagomorph777]

37. WTF? "Liberals are a fringe group of our Democratic Party"?

Liberalism is the core foundation of our values.

[Demsrule86]

54. We have more states that liberals can't win than states they can win which is why we need moderates.

This is a fact of life...and Manchin will be the last Democrat from West Virginia for decades...we have to compete in more states. I thank God for both Sinema and Manchin because we would not have a majority without them. We need to begin a huge grassroots campaign for hearts and minds in all 50 states...put the most resources in the ones that are close to tipping but have a presence in every state.

[lagomorph777]

56. We have more voters that conservatives can't win, than what they could win.

Thanks to our unfortunate Electoral College, both things matter, but population matters more than state count, in presidential elections.

I don't think it's at all accurate to call SineManchin "moderate".

[Demsrule86]

59. It is not just the electoral college, it is also the Senate...and maybe you don't like it. I don't

like that every state even the smallest gets two Senators but it is a fact of life and isn't going to change. The electoral college is not changing either...so we have to work with it...and given our system, we can't win enough states without moderates. And they will have their say...that is a fact.

[lagomorph777]

62. OK, let's work to replace SineManchin with moderates.

We can no longer afford to have conservatives in those seats.

[Demsrule86]

60. And one more point...it matters where the voters are...many of ours are in big blue states who only

have two Senators just like the smallest state which I guess is Vermont? We can't change the system so we have to work within the system.

[LakeArenal]

30. It is Manchin's job to support the Dem agenda.

His constituents want him to be a Democrat.

Democrats want him to be a Democrat.

He’s the one not living up to his job.

[Demsrule86]

61. Do you live in West Virginia? His job is to represent his constituent nothing less and nothing more.

Pres. Biden lost WVA by what 50 points?

[LakeArenal]

66. He's a Democrat elected by Democrats.

I doesn’t matter about Biden. Democrats are not silent on their agenda. If Democrats are outnumbered in WV all the more reason for the Democrat to support Democrats. Polls say WV citizens want the infrastructure.

[Demsrule86]

70. And when AOC and others have voted against certain bills, why didn't I hear the same thing?

People have voters they represent.

[LakeArenal]

75. You didn't hear it from me. I am not a fan of what was said in the primary.

[WHITT]

67. But

70% of his constituents want him to vote for the proposed reconciliation bill.

[Demsrule86]

69. I do not believe those polls anyway but assume they are accurate because of Citizens United...

he needs donors to get elected. But Manchin represents WVA period.

[Carlitos Brigante]

31. 2010 here we come........ nt

[UCmeNdc]

32. It is Manchin's responsibility to support Joe Biden!

That is the bottom line!

[Lars39]

42. Manchin's an obstructive asshole at this point.

[jalan48]

50. Climate change is a big fucking deal. We're running out of time while we play big tent with deniers

and obstructionists like Manchin.

[Demsrule86]

63. Then get the votes because it isn't happening without them.

Hearts and minds people.

[jalan48]

64. How do we get the votes to counter Manchin?

[Demsrule86]

71. You make it possible to elect more Democrats by passing what is possible now. We work

to get a better majority. It is way past time that we work in all 50 states. I like Jaime Harrison but I don't think he has the experience run the DNC at this moment.

[jalan48]

72. Isn't this what the good folks in WVA did? Worked hard to get Manchin instead of a Republican?

[Demsrule86]

73. You don't get it. Manchin will do what he does to get elected and that include considering donors.

You got to have money. But I think we will get a reconciliation bill...but not 3.5 trillion.

[jalan48]

74. So electing more Dems may not be the answer?

[Ohio Joe]

58. I uhhh... uhhhh...

Sheesh...

[11 Bravo]

65. FAR right.

[Celerity]

68. Lolol