RE: the various opinions about FB...

[OneGrassRoot]

Last edited Tue Oct 5, 2021, 07:30 AM - Edit history (1)

(I'm usually very naïve as to how threads will go on DU and this is no exception. I didn't expect this to be a thread where people reiterate what has been said umpteen times, why they do or don't use FB. Interesting. Also, let me add here my comment below so I don't feel compelled to keep replying, saying the same thing.

"I don't see FB or Amazon or cable news or any of the other entities as mere tools, only being "good" or "bad" based upon how they are used. I see underlying agendas to the actual foundation of those entities (if only more $$, more $$ no matter what) and the ability for exploitative opportunists to do all manner of harm via those entities, rather than them being mere tools. But, that's only my opinion and I respect yours. Since I started this thread I felt compelled to respond since I didn't make this distinction clear in my OP as to why I disagree with the "tool" argument. No desire to debate anyone; that's been done to death...lol." )

...

I read through most of them yesterday and something just wasn't sitting right with me. I realized it's the same something that has bothered me since 2008 when I saw the very unique role FB was playing in misinformation and much worse (rise of right-wing violent extremists). I say unique role because, even though that has happened throughout all social media, with profit as the motive for the platforms, FB reached many more people who never would have gone down that path. Even if they didn't become Nazis themselves, they became very complicit in openly supporting it, even with the passive *likes*. We saw all of this explode during the pandemic with the rise of QAnon - again, very specifically on FB with it reaching a wide variety of people who likely would never have seen that content were it not for FB. But I can't only blame FB, just as I don't only blame right-wing media in general. These people have been willfully ignorant and had seeds of hatred and Othering that made them predisposed to buy into the bullshit and join a cult. It was a seeping wound that has always been with us but opportunists and others with a longer-range plan have exploited it to make it grow and spread at an alarming rate.

HOWEVER, I have also always recognized the "good" FB can and does do. I put "good" in quotes because, quite frankly, I think we need to define what good is; I, for one, don't know what that even means any more given my very late awakening to how many selfish, truly dangerous assholes there are in the world who sincerely consider themselves "good people."

For the record, I tried for YEARS to get many here and elsewhere to consider a FB alternative, before it became nearly impossible to be extricated from one's daily life. I proposed an alternative that worked the same way yet would be a member- and worker-owned cooperative. It would have had mutual aid as it's core focus, which was the heart of Wishadoo for those of you who remember. For reasons I will never understand, people had no interest. Supremacist worldviews would not have been permitted. Period. (Edit to add: I do realize that's a turn-off for the "free speech is THE priority, no matter what" proponents.)

But never more than a handful of people were interested. Either they were fine with FB or they were fine with only DU, though many of those "only DU" people are indeed FB loyalists now. Go figure!

I definitely hear those of you who have been expressing why they like FB when they say it's akin to the "turn off your TV! I haven't watched TV in decades!" admonishments. lolol I know it sounds condescending and is a huge turn-off. It seems at least once a week here we have a thread as to "why I will keep using FB" and another "why I will never use FB."

It strikes me that we could have similar threads about Google and Walmart (and have in years past) and Amazon and really any huge entity that is part of tens of millions of people's everyday lives.

But here's the difference, imo:

I think all of us here recognize and admit the destructiveness of Walmart and Amazon and other corporate conglomerates and their influence on destroying our environment, how they have hastened income inequality, etc. Perhaps it's because the way they make money is clear and undeniable. As we hear daily, with social media, WE are the product and we are loathe to admit we're being exploited beyond the typical goods-and-services model.

Many of us use Amazon, Walmart, etc., for our own reasons, just as many do FB. There are "good" reasons, and what is a "good" reason to one person isn't a good reason to another, so there's plenty of judgment to go around. Many can't afford anything other than Walmart or don't have access. The pandemic made Amazon nearly indispensable for millions of people, especially those with disabilities or who are homebound for any number of reasons.

So we continue to use them in spite of knowing the evil they're doing in the world, for lack of a better term.

I think if people would admit that same evil exists in FB and simply admit the good, for them, outweighs that evil in their view, these arguments would decrease. Going with the "they're all evil" argument feels rather lazy, even if it's true.

There are many positives and they've been listed here in good faith and I'm glad for all the good being done on FB.

But let's not kid ourselves, just as we don't with Walmart and Amazon, that the undercurrent of destruction isn't there in the foundation of FB's model, even if it's being propelled by the willful ignorance of millions of people. I recognize and applaud that many here can simply "remove those features" and create their own pleasant ecosystem using it as a tool. Yes, indeed, we must do that with many things in modern life.

I'm suggesting we be more honest about it. No need to defend it. As so many have stated, it's a choice.

The part I'm still processing is how one poster likened those responses about using FB being a personal choice to the anti-maskers during a pandemic. When you step back and look at the big picture, many of us can't unsee the role FB has been playing in attacking democracy. That's a pretty big deal. HOWEVER, a similar case could be made for any large entity as I stated above: Google, Walmart, Amazon and many others.

Personal choice vs collective good. Personal legitimate needs vs collective good.

If we're self-reflective at all, I guess we all grapple with how our choices impact the collective good on a regular basis. FB is merely one such choice with a plethora of pros and cons.

We're all doing our best. I like to think so, at least. Maybe we just need to look at the big picture more and be more honest with ourselves. If we can live with our choices, so be it. We're doing the best we can.

ETA: I was on FB, off and on, for many years. The negatives, for me, outweighed any positives and I disabled my account a few months ago. I think when I finally gave up on trying to reach the willfully ignorant, I gave up on social media. If I'm going to preach to the choir, I can do that here but I simply remain silent for the most part these days as I have nothing useful to add.

[marble falls]

1. I have a dummied FB account. I use two programs to keep it and google from tracking ...

I have no friends (on FB), I use it to see all the pictures my otherwise sane daughter posts of my grandchildren.

[OneGrassRoot]

2. lol...

that's one of many good reasons!

[Sherman A1]

3. Facebook is like anything else

Including this internet discussion board. It’s how you use it. Can it be the evil place of which it is accused here in the weekly Facebook bashing postings, sure. Can it be useful, sure.

I personally cannot stand cable news and wish it would all go away as I see it as nothing more than manufactured drama filling airtime between ads for drugs we never knew we needed. Others here seem to live and breathe on the latest words from their favorites or the ones that do not fulfill their expectations. I’ve turned it off, what others do is up to them.

I’ll use Facebook for my purposes others are certainly free to do as they please. I don’t need their approval, nor do they need mine.

[OneGrassRoot]

5. Yeah, I disagree with that approach...

but others more eloquent than I have explained that position many times.

I don't see FB or Amazon or cable news or any of the other entities as mere tools, only being "good" or "bad" based upon how they are used. I see underlying agendas to the actual foundation of those entities (if only more $$, more $$ no matter what) and the ability for exploitative opportunists to do all manner of harm via those entities, rather than them being mere tools.

But, that's only my opinion and I respect yours. Since I started this thread I felt compelled to respond since I didn't make this distinction clear in my OP as to why I disagree with the "tool" argument. No desire to debate anyone; that's been done to death...lol.

Be well.

[Sherman A1]

25. Yes, they have an agenda

just as does Amazon, Cable Noise and the neighborhood bowling alley. The agenda is green folding money, the more the better and any means to make it more, even better. It is all about the dollars and what steps need to be taken to get more is what they will all do.

That doesn't mean that any of them are inherently good or bad, simply profit driven.

[OneGrassRoot]

28. Agreed...

Yet it is my personal belief that predatory, exploitative, more, more, more capitalism which has become a bit of a religion in and of itself is bad. How much we each contribute to it and perpetuate it is a personal decision. And it isn’t always a choice. As mentioned, when resources and social safety nets are limited, many people must use these services. Even when it’s not a necessity and people have options, they will use such services/platforms for their own reasons. This post is simply suggesting that we keep in mind the bigger picture and not view any of these entities as benign. I understand you see it differently.

[Lonestarblue]

4. I continue to use Facebook sporadically.

None of my family lives near me, and Facebook lets me see the photos of my relatives and their children, including one baby I’ve never met because of Covid. FB has also allowed mento find and reconnect with former classmates and work contacts. Those examples represent the good part of FB, but I also never click on an ad because that just supports all the bad aspects of FB.

[bucolic_frolic]

6. If you're feeding the greed, you're doing the wrong things

Question is how can you avoid that outcome?

[dlk]

7. It's nice to be able to connect with those we care about

However, that’s no reason to rationalize the tremendous harm FB has caused and continues to cause every day, around the world with misinformation and propaganda.

[sarchasm]

8. So DU is the alternative, right?

Or is it?

Like most things, in my humble opinion, it’s what you make it.

[OneGrassRoot]

10. I don't think there's a viable alternative...

any more. DU is an excellent discussion board for those who are generally of like mind. But it’s not the same as FB and doesn’t try to be. Other platforms that are very similar to Facebook as far as its features and tools have tried to gain a foothold but not enough people can or will wean themselves from Facebook.

[sarchasm]

35. Preachin' to the choir.

I’m with you on all of it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

9. You raise interesting points, and I am in agreement.

To carry out your analogy even further (and I may find myself slapped down for this), I find it not unlike our dependence on fossil fuel powered automobiles. Some people cannot afford an electric car, don't live somewhere with adequate public transportation, etc. But the need to get from point A to point B in suburban and rural areas is real. We do what we can to balance our personal needs with public good when we know we're harming the environment. We take the steps we can to reduce our carbon footprint, but very few can reduce it to almost zero yet.

I left social media (except for an anonymous Twitter account I use to follow politicians and news accounts) in 2018 for my own personal reasons. I've been fine without it, but I have family members who can't fathom being without Facebook. It's not a hill we choose to argue over.

[OneGrassRoot]

17. That analogy works for me...

Nice to see you.

[brer cat]

11. Very thoughtful post.

I'm a FB user. I have carefully tailored my account to filter out the evil crap so I don't see it. I haven't really considered that I was contributing to FB' s exploitation of our collective community. I can see that I need to be more self-reflective. Your posts always inspire me to be better.

[OneGrassRoot]

16. That's very kind...

and more appreciated than you can imagine.

[dixiechiken1]

12. Very thoughtful and well said...

IMO, another one of the downsides to FB et al, is that thoughtful, reasonable discourse is shouted down. It's an echo chamber where cyber "likes" and cyber "friends" become an addiction to be fed. Manners, common courtesy and the like, rarely exist in this cyber world. He who screams the loudest - and nastiest - wins. Unfortunately, this has the effect of quieting thoughtful, reasonable people who end up remaining "silent for the most part" because they feel they "have nothing useful to add."

Good post. Thank you for taking the time to share.

[OneGrassRoot]

14. I was one of the most outspoken...

people on FB for years sharing my opinion as well as facts. I was blocked by many. lolol. Silence is fairly new to me. I think I’m tired - and feeling generally defeated for the moment. But, yes, many stay silent for the reasons you state and that’s very unfortunate.

[Tracer]

13. I don't have a Facebook account, and never have.

However, I used my daughter's account to look at posts and photos of my son, daughter-in-law and nephews and nieces. That's it.

I use an ad blocker so I never see any ads on FB. I've always been puzzled by stories about Russian disinformation, COVID falsehoods, political arguments etc. I don't see those and frankly, am not interested enough in that kind of content to figure out how to see them.

It seems to be that FB has gotten so big, even the people that run it have lost some control over it.

[OneGrassRoot]

15. True! Good point. n/t

[Mad_Machine76]

27. I've not noticed a lot of that stuff either BUT

I don't go looking for it, nor associate with folks that do. Like any other tool, you get out (mostly) what you put in, or in the case of Facebook, what you look for. I enjoy Facebook for the social interactions (which is more than what I get IRL although I'm trying to change that as much as possible, at least for people whom are local) but I seem to have relatively few problems with other users and don't run into too many right-wingers unless I'm on a public news site. Even those have improved considerably since I blocked any abusive right-wingers or probable bots.

[SheltieLover]

18. Great Post!👍

I've never had a FB acct. Because it was obviously a dark data mining tool & I refuse to empower them by allowing them to make $ off of my personal data.

Boring as my life is, it's not going to feed the bloviated dysfunction.

[jaxexpat]

19. The single most insidious aspect of FB is that there are people who depend on it.

For what ever reason, some people peruse it as an integral aspect of their habitual occupations, even routinely. Maybe even to the point that the fullness of their participation in living itself is dependent upon it. Some more, some less; but all addicted.

I prefer more traditional addictions. Tequila, Chinaco anejo preferably, thanks to Bartcopaganda, being the predominant indulgence. I'll enjoy my PM minivacations until they pry my cold dead hands from the snifter with palm trees painted on the side.



Many years ago I ruthlessly separated the complexities of my life into 2 categories: essential and nonessential. FB falls solidly into the latter.

[lagomorph777]

20. From the beginning, Falsebook's treatment of its subscribers appalled me.

They never honored their own "privacy" policies and did a ton of harm to people from day one.

Then they turned to actively supporting the fascist takeover of America and my apprehension turned to rage.

I have never and will never submit to being part of that Borg.

[Skittles]

38. thank you

gotta love the people who "block out" the evil

[DownriverDem]

21. For me

I have met a lot of left leaning folks on FB. We are a tight group. I block ads, folks and posts I don't want to see. I don't have kids. Seeing what I post shows I lean left. I am in groups for things I like and support. I don't see RW crap. If one doesn't like FB, that's their opinion.

[Johnny2X2X]

22. Brainwashing

Facebook exists to collect and sell your data, how you "use" it is immaterial to that. What you share is immaterial.

The thing about propaganda is that it works on everyone, regardless of awareness of it, and regardless of intelligence.

Facebook doesn't even need you to fill out your profile to compile a detailed psychological profile of you. Their software tracks your likes, your screen crawl speed, they make assumptions about your personality based on what your friends and family post and like. I don't think people still have an appreciation for how powerful social media is on individuals. You've got an AI pointed at your brain, it's goal is to manipulate you into more screen time by whatever means necessary, so it can get an even more detailed profile of you to sell to advertisers. It's uncanny how effective it is in predicting your behavior.

And Facebook follows you wherever you go on the Internet. Most major sites do that, even most minor sites do now too.

And Google is the same, but Facebook takes all the heat right now.

I think what is needed is for someone at Facebook to steal and decode the profile of just one user and release it to the public. I think it would shock people how they are being manipulated so predictably.

[GusBob]

23. FB arguments and discussions are becoming a tedious treadmill of futility

One side uses it and will continue to do so as they please
The other side hasn't or doesn't use it and are happy about that

One difference I have noticed though; one side advocates the other should stop using FB with such unhelpful statements such as " If you are using FB you are part of the problem" " FB is a tool and you are the screw"

I don't think I have ever seen a FB user or advocate on DU say ' I'm on FB and hey you should join too!'
They are more inclined to say 'If you don't like it don't use it' Which in my mind is more is more pro-choice than telling someone how to live their lives

ETA: And ya, people are using this thread to rehash the arguments over and over

[ShazzieB]

36. Hard agree.

Especially the part about FB haters who can't seem to refrain from lecturing others about the "evils" of FB. Feeling strongly about something being a social, ethical, or moral evil is all well and good, but sometimes people get carried away by the strength of their convictions (about FB or any of a number of other things) and become convinced that anyone who doesn't share them must be educated to see how wrong they are. This kind of attitude, while understandable in some cases, is completely counterproductive, because it alienates and repells those one wants to influence.

When it comes to FB, I am neither a hater nor a huge fan. I have an account that I hardly ever use but am not going to delete because it serves as a connection to relatives I rarely see as well as local groups that I'm involved with. I know all about the bad side of FB, and I don't need people haranguing me about it. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure most people who post on DU have heard about the bad side of FB and don't want or need a lecture about it any more than I do.

I really wish we could all just accept the fact that we all have different views about FB and respect each person's right to hold the view that they hold. In particular, I really, REALLY wish people would quit making posts at DU about how FB is the root of all evil (so to speak). Those posts are not telling any of us anything we don't already know, and they are not going to change a thing.

Remember that old saying about trying to teach a pig to sing, how it's a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig*? The same principle applies to preaching to people about what you consider the error of their ways, concerning FB or just about anything else. It's a waste of your time, and it annoys the hell out of those you want to convince.

*NO, I am NOT implying that people who use FB are pigs. Do not even try to go there!

[OneGrassRoot]

37. I'm inclined to agree with you both about it being an exercise in futility...

(And, believe me, I rarely post any more and questioned whether it was wise to create yet another FB post, but I had an observation I wanted to share in case it added another perspective to the mix since it obviously is important to many people, or else there wouldn't always be so many posts.)

I agree that for the most part it is futile. It didn't use to be but it is now. I have my thoughts as to why that is.

As for the observation that the "haters" are the ones encouraging/guilting "non-haters" to not be on FB, that makes sense to me. It's the people who feel harm is being done who are encouraging changing the course of action; the people who don't feel there is harm have no reason to encourage other people to join in.

I'm not equating it but there are similarities to the whole mask debate. I've seen the exact same argument time and again from people who are either anti-mask or "I wear a mask but I respect others don't want to" crowd: No one should be told what to do; it's a personal choice; there's good and bad to everything; shaming and guilting doesn't accomplish anything, yada, yada.

Same thing with smoking.

So, yeah, I agree it's futile...lol. The dream of a commitment to the Common Good seems to have died a while ago, if it was ever really alive to begin with.

My point in creating this OP was not to encourage people one way or the other but to suggest we be honest with ourselves. I've been here for a LONG time and over the years nearly every huge industry and company has been discussed. Amazon and Walmart come to mind as being the most discussed as causing great harm.

What surprises me about these FB posts is the position that FB ISN'T causing great harm, along with comments like yours indicating that everyone is aware of the bad side of FB. I'm not so sure about that but, regardless, it seems to most definitely be a moot point.

I naively thought we would all be on the same page about the negative impact of FB but it's a matter of people, individually, weighing the pros and cons of engaging or not.

I was very wrong.

I don't recall in the Walmart discussions people being so defensive. Rather, people would tend to say, "Yeah, I know it's evil but it's all I can afford" or "it's all we have in this town." Not "I'm so tired of people saying Walmart is evil." lol

I'm not so sure most people are aware of the "bad" side of FB and its cumulative effect over the years. But, bottom line, I realized today that, at this point, more people than I thought just don't care any more. And that's okay. I no longer give any shits myself.

We're in pure Darwin territory, with everyone seeing and hearing and believing what they choose to see and hear and believe.

[GusBob]

43. Holy heck

You said some things I thought about saying but in a much better way than I could put into words

Spot on

[NewHendoLib]

24. very thoughtful post .. thx. always a relief to read something that's not

just "turn on the TV right now" or a tweet. Showing my age, I know.

I think about this topic/issue a lot. Doing errands now, bookmarked this, will share my thoughts later today

[Tommy Carcetti]

26. As I pointed out yesterday, I use Facebook for mostly non-political reasons.

I use DU to vent about politics. I also use Twitter--whose format I absolutely loath--for that same reason, but it's unfortunately ubiquitous and allows me to comment on various stories easily.

I don't use my own name for either of those websites. (No, I'm not actually the beleaguered Mayor of Baltimore from The Wire. Sorry to disappoint.)

However, I use my actual name for Facebook. I only have actual friends and family on my list, and I keep almost all of my posts private. I typically post about family, sports, television, movies and other frivolous bullshit. Only occasionally do I ever wade into news and politics (and that was more often the case during the Trump years only when he did something truly outrageous) because I really don't feel like annoying my apolitical friends by filling up their feed with that stuff. Sometimes I'll engage in debates on other friends' political posts but I usually stay away from it on my own posts.

Facebook as a corporation is apolitical and amoral--I firmly believe they are all about the money over any sort of ideology. I don't like that but accept that unfortunate fact and I still enjoy communicating with people over it nonetheless.

[NewHendoLib]

29. OK - back from errands - my thoughts on this - and this type - of topic

It is all about the collision of personal freedom ("I only use such and such for, I watch TV for, I shop at whatever store for...) and how our decisions validate the existence of those shows, apps, or stores. It is complex - very complicated - and every one of us here at DU have, at one time or another, twisted ourselves up over the decisions.

But we do "vote" with our use - our acceptance is reflected in our participation. It is going to vary by age/generation, by personal situation (isolation vs proximity to friends and loved ones), how we choose to spend our time.

I don't see a good resolution to it all. The cat is out of the bag. Preaching only creates a reflex reaction and defensiveness. It also uncovers how each of us is a hypocrite in some for or other. We each have to decide where the needle lies on our levels of hypocrisy.

Yes, I turned off TV 17 years ago - my wife and I got sick of ads, and sick of watching, which is an implicit vote of support to what we were watching. We didn't want to be one more supportive data point of both sides do it and 24 hour outrage and breaking news generation. But it was our choice.

Many years ago we stopped shopping at Sams or Walmart. We didn't want to support the politics of those who owned the store.

Some years ago I quit Twitter and Facebook - and retained Instagram. I am not pleased, or proud, about it. I see these tools as voyeuristic, create insecurities, and of course, lead to spread of damaging misinformation. I actually despise all of these tools. But I am not going to tell other people not to use them - each person has to reconcile their own use vs how the tools are used.

And to show where my hypocrisy stands, I am on Instagram because I do garden teaching and it is a good place to share my knowledge. I've had to rejoin Facebook to participate in a private group that supports an on-line course I am involved in.

I struggle with this daily. I can't wait for the day when I have the courage to just turn it all off, leave - and just live my life without likes, without shares.

But...that's me. That is the journey I am on. I do not want one second of my time or penny of my money to support tools that run content counter to the good of society. My prediction is that within two years, once the courses I am involved with are done, I will be finished and then I will be completely off Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Using them makes me feel dirty and complicit.

[OneGrassRoot]

30. Well said!

Like you, even though I freely admit that I am a very judgmental person with strong opinions, I don’t feel a lot of judgment about what we are discussing here because there are a multitude of reasons, many of which we can’t understand unless we are walking in that person’s shoes, to use these services. As you mentioned, there actually are situations where people do not have a choice but to have a presence on these platforms for their work and or volunteer activities.

perhaps in posts like this I am talking to myself more than anyone else, but I regularly want to remind myself to be mindful about my choices. I do not see any of these entities as benign, but as you said it all lies on a spectrum and, unless someone is so far off the grid they aren’t using ANY services, we’re all involved in this tug-of-war, even if not all of us view it that way.

[NewHendoLib]

32. thank you - and I agree.

I get annoyed with myself because I spend a lot of time turning these issues over.

When we turned off TV 17 years ago, I consider it one of the best decisions my wife and ever made. Our quality of life, moods, etc elevated appreciably. When I totally quit FB and Twitter a few years ago, same thing happened - one daughter and my wife are still off of FB. When I can rid myself of all of this crap, I will be far more at peace. Moral consistency is very important to us - practicing what we preach (so to speak - we don't like to preach!)

[FakeNoose]

31. The whole political aspect of Facebook

... and I'm talking about the way nefarious people (maybe even paid foreign agents) have used FB to circulate lies and fake political stories ... this thing took a lot of Americans by surprise. We have people in our country who are sometimes too trusting, too credulous, not discriminating enough in their "belief mode."

There are people who believe everything they see on TV including obvious fake advertising, etc. These people have been targets for many years of Facebook underhandedness, and they don't even realize it. The smarter ones who saw what was happening, either become angry and quit FB, or they found a way to turn it off and continued to use Facebook without all the political BS (basically they ignored it.)

Not every American is savvy about this political manipulation, and therein lies our problem. The ones who REALLY needed the savvy will never get it because their minds are already poisoned by political BS on FB and other SMS. Pandora's box is already open, and it's too late to close it.

[NewHendoLib]

33. I think that the default position of our species is to believe that which is repeatedly put in front

of us. It is both a bug and a feature - and looking through history, gaslighters and authoritarians play people like a fiddle.

We actually have to work to NOT be influenced by such things.

[FakeNoose]

34. Yes friend, I agree

I just read your post #29 and I understand what you're saying.

We're so lucky on DU to be able to trust the website owners and the others who post on here. We all have good intentions and we share a common goal. That's definitely not true on Facebook, however the users on there (many of them) don't realize it.

I'm no longer a user of FB because it wore me down. I'd rather spend my time on DU where I don't have to constantly be on my guard.

[Mr.Bill]

40. Repetition, though is also sometimes the most efficient way for learning to take place.

The problem is not that we believe what is repeated, it's the source of the information.

[Mr.Bill]

39. I don't use Facebook

just to baffle my grandchildren who can't understand how anyone can live without it.

[LeftInTX]

41. Someone was complaining that so many things are on Facebook and not on the internet

I pointed out that free websites are now going the way of the dodo.
Sure there are free sites, but they are getting harder to manage and they are not search engine optimized.

I have my own webpage, but it's too much work, whereas 10-15 years ago, it was a piece of cake. Now Google wants money and I'm just a volunteer.

So small businesses such as food trucks, bakeries, clubs and even some Democratic candidates are only doing social media instead and that social media is FB because they get their own page.

[OneGrassRoot]

42. That's exactly right...

I’ve noticed that too, that FB/instagram ARE the online presence for many businesses.

[canetoad]

44. There is apparently a concept called

"Game theory". Maybe more than one, for all I know. It revolves around digital rewards for certain behaviours. Sounds, pictures, likes, votes, followers .... all the same. They really mean nothing but they make users pleasure centres light up and want more of the same.

When you think about it, this is a pretty sophisticated use of psychologically manipulative techniques, that is - to keep your audience engaged and begging for more.

Similar techniques are used by religions, cults, pyramid schemes and multi-level marketing. They all deal with an altered reality in which critical thinking is suppressed.

And don't forget, they key to the wealth and influence wielded by these digital behemoths is the gullibility of each and every person who contributes a post, a comment, a quip a thought, a like or a repost. The public insists on new and titillating information, served personally to them, each and every day. The only way they will get that is for other members of the public to provide it. Not Zuck - he could not engage a rats arse. The users of Fb, twit etc are the lures for even more followers.

Don't get me wrong - it's a brilliant, manipulative plan for making a few people very, very rich. I don't think, in the long run, it's very good for the cohesion of human-kind.

[OneGrassRoot]

45. You answered a question I've been pondering!!!

Excellent summary of what's happening, and QAnon is a targeted example of precisely this. Google QAnon game theory and lots of articles come up. That's like the microcosm of what's happening on a much larger scale.

You actually answered a question for me by reminding me about this.

What I've been pondering is why people seem to defend their enjoyment/appreciation of sites like FB. I compared it to Walmart and Amazon as far as influence on the fabric of society and how destructive they are, and I don't recall ever seeing DUers defend Walmart or Amazon. That's not to say many of us don't use those services and it's usually because it's simply convenient or an outright necessity, especially for those of us with limited resources and mobility. But most DUers would say "Yeah, I know they're evil but I need to use their services for such and such reason." No one defends the impact they have had as far as wealth inequality, labor exploitation, etc.

But with sites actually impacting democracy? Those sites are defended or their destructive impact is poo-poo'd, saying those of us warning about this impact on society and democracy are exaggerating.

And it's because, unlike Walmart and Amazon (unless one is a shopaholic), social media is FUN. It's PLEASANT.

It's an addiction in many ways. We know this but we think it only applies to other people. People have always defended their addictions.

That's the difference with how DUers are reacting to FB vs other corporate influences. Certainly cable news could be lumped in with that for the same reason and people also defend that.

PLEASE NOTE that I'm not saying they're wrong for doing any of these things. No one lives a life without making choices that impact the collective ultimately in a negative way. I'm simply making an observation about the reactions I see in discussions about the influence of these behemoths like FB and I'll include cable news here too.