Am I the only person

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

who is totally astonished that so many doctors and nurses can go through years of medical training and at the end have no real understanding of how science works? Or even a basic understanding of the germ theory of disease? Sometimes it's as if they have been directly transported from the 14th century and think Jews cause the Plague. People then had an excuse, because they didn't have science as we know it, and had close to zero understanding of what caused diseases or how they spread. Today, in a first world country there is zero excuse for such ignorance.

[redwitch]

1. Nope. Millions of people feel the same.

It’s horrible.

[lagomorph777]

2. Based on the performance I've seen, Med school seems to be rote memorization and brute endurance.

No real understanding of underlying mechanisms is taught or rewarded. It's "if you see these symptoms, give this drug".

[Wingus Dingus]

3. Mostly it's nurses. Doctors have a much more in-depth understanding

of the medicine surrounding vaccines, immunity, etc. Nurses learn this shit piecemeal, in anatomy and physiology and microbiology and various nursing school courses, all crammed into your two or four years of nursing education, retained just long enough to pass your state boards and get your license. Lots of not-super-bright nurses out there. It's at most a bachelor's, and there's plenty of ignoramuses with bachelor's degrees. I should add: nursing is a different discipline than medicine. It has its own focus--it's not the diagnosis and treatment of disease (doctors and medicine), it's the alleviation of symptoms and restoration of wellness that is the nurse's focus. So this contributes to the confusion as to what nurses know, in terms of medicine. They only know a surface amount, they're not junior doctors.

[Ocelot II]

4. There are plenty of doctors who are promoting anti-science bullshit, too.

Don't dump it all on the nurses.

[Wingus Dingus]

6. I edited my post for clarity, I was a registered nurse, I know what I'm talking about.

I'm not "dumping" it all on them, of course there's wackadoo doctors out there, but people shouldn't lump doctors and nurses together, they're two different fields with very different requirements and knowledge bases.

[iluvtennis]

18. + agree, it's also doctors. An example is this UCLA anesthesiologist....

https://www.msn.com/en-US/news/us/ucla-anesthesiologist-vocal-against-covid-vaccine-mandates-is-escorted-out-of-workplace/

He said:

"This is what happens when you stand up for freedom and when you show up to work, willing to work, despite being unvaccinated, and this is the price you have to pay sometimes,” he says. “But what they don’t realize is that I’m willing to lose everything — job, paycheck, freedom, even my life for this cause.”

----

[Ocelot II]

23. It's ideological, not based on any professional knowledge or experience.

See my post #8.

[iluvtennis]

37. Read it! Well reasoned and stated. n/t

[LeftInTX]

30. I agree

Most nurses just don't have the in-depth education and then they get their hands on some article and suddenly they think they "know it all".
It's like a "little bit of knowledge is dangerous".

I was a registered nurse too.

[Wingus Dingus]

34. I often notice this confusion about nursing, because there's different levels of nursing

as you know (RN vs. LPN) plus overlap with MD's in some areas (nurse practitioners) and then there's PA's and medical technicians too. One silly thing that used to drive me nuts--it was the Ann Perkins nurse character on Parks and Rec, saying she diagnosed melanoma and mumps (on various episodes)--regular RN's can't make medical diagnoses! They make NURSING diagnoses (edema in feet, pressure ulcers, pain, constipation, etc.). I never realized how few people truly understand what delineates nursing from medicine, but it's interesting.

[Claustrum]

5. I came from an engineering background and surprisingly 80% of my closest friends are religious.

Religion and science are fundamentally at odds with each other but they can compartmentalize the two issues. Faith is faith while they learned and practice science in the real world.

I think the problem exists more with what type of content (eg. news) they consume and what kind of "facts" they choose to believe.

[Hoyt]

7. MDs are not particularly smart as a group. There are some scientists that are, but the doc

that looks in your ears or rear-end, removes your gallbladder, tells you to take two aspirin, etc., isn't necessarily smart.

[Ocelot II]

8. I equate this bizarre response by some medical professionals with the insane lawsuits

brought by "the Kraken" and other lawyers who ought to have known better. Law school is hard; I've done it and it was a lot of work. You are taught how to evaluate situations with respect to the facts and an analysis of the law as it actually exists and has been interpreted by courts. Nevertheless, Trumpist lawyers came up with completely bizarre, legally unsupportable claims about the election, which were thrown out of court 60+ times, and some of them are now facing monetary sanctions and even disbarment. My theory about both the lawyers who should know better what the law says and the medical people who should know better what the science says is that their ideology and political biases have caused them to completely distort what they think they know about their respective fields of knowledge. They have twisted their professional knowledge to justify their political positions. I don't think it has much to do with the quality of their educations at all.

[ancianita]

26. Best answer I've read on this issue. Thanks.

[iluvtennis]

36. Indeed! Well said. n/t

[iscooterliberally]

9. "Medicine is not an exact science" - Theodoric of York, Medieval Barber

You are not the only one who is astonished. I'm not surprised though, since people these days seem to think that belief is more important than knowledge.

[yonder]

11. +1. Thanks for this mood-lifting oldie but goodie.

Just what the doctor ordered!

[iscooterliberally]

16. You're welcome. I'm surprised that Steve Martin never made a movie out of that character.

I always loved the Theodoric skits.

[hibbing]

20. Loved those back in the day, good stuff

Then there was Caveman Lawyer with Phil Hartman, another classic.

Peace

[Wingus Dingus]

35. Wait a minute--Jane Curtin carried Laraine Newman into the scene by herself!

Newman was super-thin but that's still impressive

[iscooterliberally]

43. It must have been the 'powder of stag horn'.

Yeah, I’m sure that was it.

[Wounded Bear]

10. It is rather astonishing...

[SCantiGOP]

12. I don't think they base their beliefs on science

They are positions based on political orientation.
I’ll bet there are a lot of vocal Anti-vaxxers who have had the vaccine but won’t admit it because it would alienate them from their friends and associates.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

21. My point exactly.

Last edited Fri Oct 8, 2021, 04:17 PM - Edit history (1)

They somehow don't understand science, regardless of what the were taught, or should have been taught along the way.

[Ocelot II]

24. They do understand the science, or they did at one point. But they've allowed their political

and ideological convictions and groupthink to warp what they used to know beyond recognition.

[LeftInTX]

33. 99% of nurses do not understand how the immune system works

They don't have degrees in science.

[Iggo]

13. Ben Carson is a brain surgeon. (n/t)

[OrangeJoe]

17. Surgeons make good wood workers

What makes a good surgeon is a steady hand, fine motor skills and a calm manner. Smarts aren't really needed. Sleepy Ben certainly has the chill act down pat.

[relayerbob]

14. Brainwashing is a powerful tool

[Ms. Toad]

15. As the daughter of a nurse - as to nurses it is not surprising.

Many RNs have only two years of training past high school. My mother (a college graduate) had to take a remedial math class before starting her 3-year program.

And there are a lot of nurses who are not RNs, who have even less training.

Doctors are another issue, entirely. Not only do they have to have 4+ years of training post college, they also have to be at the top of their heavy-in-sciences classes in college in order to be admitted to medical school. So they have no excuse.

[GoCubsGo]

27. As an undergraduate, I went to a school where most Biology majors were pre-med

and pre-dental. I was one of the few who weren't planning to go into the medical side of the science. It was stunning to see the amount of cheating that went on by these future doctors, including breaking into the instructor's office and stealing the final exam, moving pins on dissections in curve-graded lab practicals, and stealing specimens from classmates' collections--after they took the effort to identify them. They may have all those years of schooling, but they aren't necessarily learning.

[Ms. Toad]

28. That didn't happen where I was the lab assistant for the premed Physics class

So I suspect it depends on the school culture, the specific students, etc.

(But most pre-med students did take the "dumbed-down" version of introductory physics, rather than the introductory courses for physics majors.) Still more strenuous than the classes we physics majors dubbed "Physics for Poets," - but not as rigorous as they might have been (in part) to keep their GPAs high.

[TheRickles]

19. And yet there are some good studies and top med school faculty looking into this perspective.

One website that's worth a scroll (and yes, they ask for donations - because they are not funded by drug companies): https://covid19criticalcare.com/
One description of why treating inflammation is the key: https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Covid-Pathophysiology.pdf
There's more, including info on how Ivermectin has been effective in shutting down delta in India (the state of Uttar Pradesh, population 200 million) - it's not all black-or-white, IMO.

[Hav]

38. You cannot trust anything from that site or Kory

They are pushing Ivermectin for their own financial gain. That alone might not be bad but the rhetoric and infomercial like videos to push Ivermectin should make you think twice.

Yes, there are studies looking into Ivermectin. Recent major studies have found no benefit while almost all previous studies that claimed to have found benefits turned out to be either very poor studies while some literally fabricated their results.

[TheRickles]

39. You're shooting the messenger.

Ivermectin is a generic medicine that sells for a few dollars for an entire course of treatment. The big money is with the vaccine - 3 new additions to Forbes' list of American billionaires are on Moderna's board. No one gets rich prescribing generics.

Google "Ivermectin, Uttar Pradesh" and see what you make of those graphs.

[Hav]

42. That's what studies are for,

to determine the efficacy of one single treatment independent of all the other measures like hard lockdowns and mask mandates. And recent major studies have simply found no benefit.
I'm not opposed to finding new treatments, but if it's such a miracle drug that can single-handidly contain Covid, we'd see that in studies beyond those that were poorly designed or had to fabricate their results.

[ancianita]

22. There are millions of us right there with you.

[Marcus Pullarius]

25. Perhaps one could examine their motives.

After all, there is much more money to be made in treating sick people then in preventing illness. We must consider that not all medical professionals are motivated by compassion but are eager to accumulate personal wealth.

[HAB911]

29. LOL, nurses getting rich? TOO FUNNY

[MissMillie]

31. Theodoric of York

&t=90s

[LeftInTX]

32. Nurses don't have "medical training"

They take classes in anatomy/physiology/microbiology and then learn a bunch of procedures.

Nursing is a procedure based practice with little emphasis on what was learned in the academic part. Hospital work is extremely labor intensive.

For the most part the science part of what is used on the job does not require how the immune system actually works.


Immune systems are extremely complicated and it's too easy to find a tidbit of information and say, "It works this way".....Most of the nurses who are anti-vax are cases of, "a little bit of knowledge is dangerous".

[Kaleva]

40. Humans are not rational beings. Education does not guarantee rational thought or behavior

[Blue_true]

41. There are some research level Doctors (typically at research hospitals)

have hard technical degrees and then get medical degrees. But that number is small, most future Doctors don’t take the rigorous classes that engineer students take, for example. It doesn’t surprise me to see Doctors and Nurses being anti-science.