Video of Mormon temple using a hidden camera going viral

[The Hitman]

From Reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/11umj8/video_of_mormon_temple_using_a_hidden_camera/

Could this affect the Christian Right's apparent new-found comfort with Mitt and Mormonism?

[Angry Dragon]

1. In my opinion any religion that has secret rituals is a cult

[Comrade_McKenzie]

2. The more organized the religion, the more I despise it... nt

[JaneyVee]

79. Seriously! With that many strict rules this is easily classified as a cult.

Except like Scientology, you pay to be a member.

[Eddie Haskell]

218. My God it's the Wizard of Oz!

A witches brew if ever I saw one. And I think I saw wings under the jacket of the monkey in charge.

[Aerows]

273. You pay to be a Mormon

They have highly strict requirements of giving 10% of your income. You can't enter a Temple without having donated 10%.

[obamanut2012]

276. Right -- you HAVE to show your W-2 and other financials

They also tell you, based on this info, how much to donate to political candidates and causes, including Prop 8 in CA.

[JaneyVee]

355. Yeah, I was correlating the similarities between the cult of Scientology & the cult of Mormonism.

You have to pay. And of course the more $$$ the more access.

[kelliekat44]

392. It is amazing to me that any evangelical or fundamentalist Christian could vote for Romney.

Just amazing!

[kelliekat44]

421. Has anyone refuted this video yet?

I was thinking if it were fake the LDS church would be tearing into it by now.

[OldDem2012]

423. Nope. At least a couple of former LDSers have verified the video as showing a true ceremony. nt.

[Whisp]

213. We were talking about that at dinner last night.

and totally agree.

If it's organized, involves a lot of money and people, it's probably whacked out stupid.

[eggplant]

390. "If it's organized, involves a lot of money and people, it's probably whacked out stupid."

No, it's Citizens United!

Hey, maybe we should start the "Church of United Citizens"!

[FreeState]

3. How is something in the Library of Congress secret ? N/t

[Angry Dragon]

4. Have no idea what you are asking

[FreeState]

5. You called it secret - how so? It's in the Library of Congress

That's far from secret.

[OldDem2012]

13. This exact video is in the Library of Congress? Do you have a link? nt.

[FreeState]

17. The cerimony is, not this exact video

Never claimed it was as I was not replying to someone who was talking about this video but secret ceremonies.

[OldDem2012]

27. Link, please. nt.

[FreeState]

51. Here you go

http://lccn.loc.gov/94037828

[OldDem2012]

57. Hmm. Not a video. Noted. nt.

[littlemissmartypants]

59. This links to the catalogue only

and not to the actual items and it is an old link. Do you have another link that will go to the actual LOC items? Thank you.

[FreeState]

69. I'm looking for it

However it may not be online yet, you might have to request a physical copy (the whole congressional record isn't online unfortunately)

Here is a transcript online http://mit.irr.org/mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony (one of many, it's been online for many many years, the video in the OP is a new video but its not anything that hasn't been online since at least 1996 or earlier)

[littlemissmartypants]

70. http://www.lds-mormon.com/buerger.shtml

/

[OldDem2012]

87. No video here, either, but there is a quote which tends to support Mormon secrecy...

"A veil of secrecy surrounds Mormon temple worship. While officially intended to preserve the sacredness of the experience, the silence leaves many Latter-day Saints mystified. What are the derivation and development of the holy endowment, and if these were known, would the experience be more meaningful? Modern parishioners lack context to interpret the arcane and syncretistic elements of the symbolism."

[NoMoreWarNow]

286. skeptics annotated Book of Mormon

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.htm

[obamanut2012]

302. The BoM is an historian's and archeologist's nightmare

So unrealistic. Moroni, alas, seems to have missed a few Social Studies classes in grammar school.

[NoMoreWarNow]

389. yep!

It's so patently bogus, you have to wonder about the sanity of anyone who believes in it

[The Magistrate]

424. An Entertaining Link, Sir

To credit the 'Book of Mormon' as an authentically antique document is to openly confess oneself a fool.

[littlemissmartypants]

72. .

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064697/

[Angry Dragon]

14. Am I allowed to witness all rituals of the LDS??

[FreeState]

20. You can read them

You can't attend - that doesn't make them secret,it makes it members only for the religious cerimony - stupid but far from secret.

[OldDem2012]

35. Riiiiggghttt! You can't attend but the rituals aren't secret....

....the Masons also have "not secret" rituals that you can't attend.

[FreeState]

43. Just because you are not invited doesn't make it secret n/t

[OldDem2012]

66. Come on. The very fact that you're not invited makes them secret by definition...

...After watching this video, I can see why they want to keep it a secret, especially this close to electing a Mormon to the highest office in the country.

[FreeState]

74. most weddings are not open to the public

Does that make them secret? Because the general public isnt invited? The endowment ceremony here is part of an LDS wedding by the way.

The ceremony has been online for years and years, the church has done squat to have it removed, yup sounds like a secret! /sarcasm

[Angry Dragon]

84. I would think most weddings are open just not the receptions

[Rainngirl]

381. Based on my VERY limited knowledge...

It's just the opposite. I was hired to photograph a Mormon wedding once, but was only allowed to shoot the reception in an annex building away from the main temple. I wasn't allowed to see or shoot the ceremony. In fact, I wasn't allowed even near the temple doors. I think anyone who believes this crap is nuts or really, really lost. But then I am one who doesn't like any rituals more complicated than, say, brushing my teeth and showering--especially rituals just made up by some patriarchal, racist goons who want to have extra wives and be gods on other planets.

[Angry Dragon]

385. I was not talking about Mormon weddings

for I have heard that some parents are not allowed in to the weddings because they were not Mormons

The point I was trying to make is that if one was passing a church and a wedding was going on I do not think they would stop you from just observing the marriage except the Mormons, but they go to temple

[OldDem2012]

88. Here's a concept for you: the more you dig, the deeper you get. nt.

[CreekDog]

116. With the LDS, you have to join or hear from those who aren't permitted to speak to learn the secrets

that's a cultish practice.

and the secrets are odious, especially towards women.

for years, the theology was used to say that black people were cursed.

for years, the church wouldn't even allow black members, and even when that was lifted, they were denied full membership.

our own President would have been denied membership by your own Brigham Young when he was acting as prophet --and a vicious racist he was when he was claiming to be a prophet of God.

vicious.

[Eddie Haskell]

221. It may have been lifted, but it's still practiced.

My Mormon relatives consider blacks inferior and unclean.

[obamanut2012]

229. It is definitely still believed by many regular LDS

My friend's family thinks Blacks are literally subhuman, and say the LDS Leadership was forced to 1. admit blacks to BYU 2. not segregate blood by race (which LDS hopsitals did until about 1980) and 3. allowed black men into the priesthood by the US Government.

[obamanut2012]

126. If a wedding is in a church, it's generally open

I have never heard of one that wasn't, especially if one is a congregant. Maybe for certain VIPs because of security concerns. My parents' church's bulletin and website notes upcoming weddings.

Receptions are a different story.

Also, a Catholic can go to a Baptist wedding and vice versa. Someone Jewish isn't barred from a Unitarian wedding just because they aren't Unitarian. Methodists, as I know for a fact, welcome Buddhists at their weddings.

[braddy]

171. Wow, how far are you going to stretch this, even Mormons cannot witness a Temple marriage

if they don't have a Temple recommend, even Ann's parents were not allowed to witness their Temple ceremony, they had to remain outside, and not because they weren't "invited", they were forbidden entrance.

[obamanut2012]

203. When my Ex LDS was married

Only her parents and grandparents were there. None of her siblings or inlaws or friends were allowed to attend.

I have known some pretty hardcore Fundies and Catholics, and even the most hardcore would never ban a loved one from someone's wedding.

[OldDem2012]

223. You must be responding to the poster to whom I'm responding...I'm on your side. nt.

[WinkyDink]

196. (Wrong place.)

[WinkyDink]

197. In fact, ALL (non-Mormon) church weddings ARE open to the public.

[PavePusher]

298. Sez who?

I can guarantee you that if/when I get married it will not be "open to the public" unless it's held in a public area.

[obamanut2012]

334. If it's in a church, the odds are it will be open

Churches don't tend to close/restrict their sanctuaries, even for weddings, funerals, christenings, etc., regardless of denomination. It's usually a given that any congregant who wants to attend can, and many churches note upcoming nuptials in their bulletins. I am specifically talking about Christian and Unitarian churches.

[PavePusher]

342. Ah, that may explain my disconnect: I'm not a Christian....

so I don't know squat about how churches (the real estate end) are operated.

[WinkyDink]

198. Why is my reply not showing up in the right "outline" order? It's to #74, not #66.

[AllyCat]

242. I've had that happen WD. Never could fix it. It's frustrating though!

[AtheistCrusader]

411. Weddings are usually filmed, and made available.

Wedding photos as well.
If the wedding is held in a public space, people may observe it.

There's pretty much no parallel here.

[obamanut2012]

414. Also a good point about wedding photos and videos

[braddy]

170. The word is forbidden, not "not invited, the inner Temple is secret, even Ann's parents were not

allowed to witness the joining of their daughter to Mitt in the Temple ceremony.

[Utah_liberal]

175. Mormon Temple rituals are intended to be secret.

This argument that its not secret because someone used a spy camera to record temple rituals is ridiculous. The Mormon church will not deny that temple ceremonies are secret. The mormons have never published or provided video of temple ceremonies because they are secret. Anything on YouTube, books, film, etc. that shows a temple ritual was secretly recorded. I am an ex Mormon. I know for a fact they don't want you to see that.

[Eddie Haskell]

215. They are secret.

Ask any Mormon to describe their marriage ceremony.

[LanternWaste]

195. And upper management where I work must then have "Secret lunches"

And upper management where I work must then have "Secret lunches"

Although we know what is discussed, and minutes are written up, it must be super secret...

[WinkyDink]

200. Are you seriously that obtuse, that you are comparing religion to private enterprise?

[Angry Dragon]

40. Kinda like the republican party

I can read how much they care about people but I am not allowed to watch them at work ..............

[Sebass1271]

187. +++100

[CreekDog]

301. you're misleading people and that is a sin

yes, in your religion too.

[FreeState]

395. Im an atheist

but then again apparently Im misleading people by pointing out if something is readily available and has been for years and years its not a secret. Yes attack me, someone you have no clue about - next time you might want to look at a posters icon, gay buddhist =/= Mormon.

[obamanut2012]

309. Except it isn't Mormons/Members Only

It's Elite only, and those elite are sworn to keep what they see and experience secret... even from other members of the LDS.

[snagglepuss]

401. That is very interesting. I wonder what they will think when they see this crap.

[Union Scribe]

61. Is a party you aren't invited to a cult, too?

Listen, you can have whatever "opinion" on a word's definition you want but that isn't really how things work.

[Angry Dragon]

81. I was using the idea that just because something is written does not make it true

and as far as political parties are concerned I believe they have taken the masses out of the political process and should be broken up. It has gotten to the point that the elected have become more beholding to the party than the people that vote. That is why 50% of this country do not vote. Think about that ..........

And as far as opinions it is important to question definitions to progress.

the word 'nice' used to have a completely different definition years ago

OH!! if you want to believe that things work a certain way then why have progressives??

[braddy]

177. The "Invite" requires interviews every 2 years, 10% of your income, and an ID card that must be

renewed every 12 months, only the elite Mormons with a Temple recommend are allowed into the glorious, beautiful, incredibly ornate and expensive Temples, the regular Mormons attend regular church like buildings and are not privy to the secrets.

[Erose999]

312. I think you have to wear the magic undies too. I know someone who recently visited a Mormon temple

and at a certain point in the temple you have to be wearing the undies to pass.

[obamanut2012]

320. Of course you do

I know those getting married have to have a ritual bath, too, before they can enter the temple proper. Not sure if everyone has to.

[WinkyDink]

201. Why are you trying to equate religion with anything else?

[marshall]

193. Why not just watch a porn video?

You're witnessing secret rituals between two people, and it's a lot more interesting.

[Angry Dragon]

199. Just make me one and send it to DU in care of Angry Dragon

[waddirum]

416. porn is much more ubiquitous and "hohum" than secret Mormon rituals

Videos like the one in this thread are very rare and hence more titillating.

[marshall]

420. It depends on who you're watching

And whether the parties know they are being filmed.

[LibertyLover]

224. From what I understand about Mormonism

no, you cannot. Some Mormons can't either. If the ceremony takes place in a temple, you must be a Mormon with a letter from your Stake President called a Temple Recommend, which states that you are a Mormon in good standing and who believes in the tenets of the Mormon faith. When Mitt Romney was Stake President a known Mormon feminist applied for a Temple Recommend in order to attend a family wedding. It was only because she had been promised by another Mormon official that Romney issued it. The article I read this in stated that Romney told her that she "wasn't my kind of Mormon" when he handed it over.

[CreekDog]

154. FreeState is saying because it's not been kept a secret, it's not actually intended to be secret

but ask FreeState to describe their own temple work/visits and find out how freely shared it is.

[obamanut2012]

205. Exactly -- the SCientologists do the same thing

They claim they aren't secretive, but yet they totally are, and they either deny or explain away stuff when their secrets are exposed.

It was a HUGE deal when that woman, ex LDS, wrote a book in the very early 90's, and described the temple ritual in full. She received major death threats for doing this.

And, they also have "Lying for the Lord," just like the LDS (although they have no Lord, just an evil alien warlord named Xenu), as well as attacking those who expose their secrets and infiltrating the government (see White Horse Prophecy). I have seriously often wondered if L. Ron Hubbard stole some strategies from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, because certain things are so similar.

[FreeState]

306. Id gladly tell you everything

I am no longer a member - I dont believe in the Church. What do you want to know? (By the way I included several links in this thread to the actual text of the ceremony that is online - even sent a link to the Library of Congress record of it, sounds like Im trying to not freely share it?)

You would think my gay buddhist icon would tip you off that Im not Mormon?

[underthematrix]

12. there are many items in the library of congress that are not

for public consumption. So in that sense they could be deemed "secret"

[FreeState]

23. You can request a copy from the Library of Congress n/t

[OldDem2012]

37. Link, please. nt.

[FreeState]

52. Here's the link

http://lccn.loc.gov/94037828

[littlemissmartypants]

68. Hardback copy on Azon.com for $206.80 also...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Mysteries-Godliness-History-Worship/dp/1560851767

[FreeState]

71. Read it (the ceremony) for free here

http://mit.irr.org/mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony

[OldDem2012]

101. I read it, and here are my responses....

This is the very first paragraph on the site you linked:

"A note to the reader: Practicing members of the LDS Church regard the temple ceremonies, including the text of the endowment ceremony, as sacred and not to be divulged to the world or discussed with others. They take an oath not to make this information public. Former temple-going members who have left the LDS Church, on the other hand, often view their oath as invalid or non-binding. Although we do not regard the LDS temple ceremonies as sacred and do not agree with the idea of keeping sacred things secret, we understand and acknowledge that some Mormons may be offended by the publication of details concerning LDS temple ceremonies. It is definitely not our intention to mock Mormons or their practices; our intention is simply to make information available to those who are looking for it. We encourage readers to be circumspect about bringing up these things when engaged in discussion with practicing Mormons."

Let's repeat that: "Practicing members of the LDS Church regard the temple ceremonies, including the text of the endowment ceremony, as sacred and not to be divulged to the world or discussed with others. They take an oath not to make this information public." Does this not imply the very secrecy that you continue to deny exists? Why the continued defense of the indefensible?

Additionally, there is no mention in the site you linked of any mention of replacing the "civil government" with a "religious government administered by Mormons" as stated in the video linked by the OP. Why is that exactly? If it's not secret, why is it missing from the text on this site?

[braddy]

169. Temple Mormons are sworn to secrecy, anything that gets out wasn't supposed to.

As Gordon Hinckley has written.

"May I speak also of a matter pertinent to temples? I remind you of the absolute obligation to not discuss outside the temple that which occurs within the temple. Sacred matters deserve sacred consideration. We are under obligation, binding and serious, to not use temple language or speak of temple matters outside."

"Please, brethren, do not discuss outside of the temple that which occurs in the temple. While there, you are at liberty to do so. If you have questions, you may speak with the temple president or one of his counselors. But when you leave the doors of the House of the Lord, be true to a sacred trust to speak not of that which is holy and sanctified.

Said the Lord, “Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit.” (D&C 63:64.) And again, “Trifle not with sacred things.” (D&C 6:12.)"

[LiberalElite]

413. Kind of like, "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas"? n/t

[underthematrix]

8. I agree

[CreekDog]

109. yes, the secrecy is a bad sign, and in this case, the secrecy shrouds things that we find abhorrent

i have never believed the "sacred not secret" BS.

[pokerfan]

137. some screenshots

I wonder what Mitten's secret name is.

[Smilo]

375. Is that a shower cap on the man's head?

Secret groups - I outgrew those when I was 11.

[pokerfan]

380. I'm reminded of Weird Science

Organized Religion: Silly stories, silly hats.

[lolly]

382. The video might not doom Romney's chances

But if someone has a pic of him in that get-up, I think that would be all she wrote!

[snagglepuss]

398. Some of the comments on this thread is hilarious, almost

hilarious as the images themselves. Imaging Rmoney with a veiled Ann in front of the cirle of horned oxen though creepy is hysterical.

[CoffeeCat]

363. Mormons believe that Adam and Eve used to live in Spring Hill Missouri

I'll provide links, because it sounds like I made it up, but it is true.

Mormons believe that Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden. They have decided that the Garden of Eden was located in Spring Hill, Missouri. These lands are still sacred to the Mormon religion. They still maintain this belief of a Missourian Garden of Even today. This is not something that they thought long ago, but have since re-thought.

"Joseph Smith said in 1832 that the land where Adam and Eve lived after being cast out of the Garden was called Adam-ondi-Ahman (roughly translated to mean "Adam with God" or "Adam in the valley of God&quot . In 1838 the location of Adam-Ondi-Ahman was revealed as a place then called Spring Hill (or Wight's Ferry) in Missouri. After the Mormons were kicked out of Missouri it was renamed Cravensville.

Now, most of the site that Joseph said was Adam-ondi-Ahman is owned by the Church and is used as farmland and a visitor site. It is about 3000 acres and is located on the bluffs above the Grand River in Daviess County, Missouri. You can learn more about the site at the "Related Links" below."

Source Link: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_do_Mormons_believe_the_first_man_and_woman_lived

[PatrynXX]

393. yeah... thats fairly accurate...

thought I was watching something out of Rosemary's Baby or something X_X

So decades of being told Mormonism is a cult suddenly have friends on the right to ignore that. Just rather conservative in that approach. Won't be doing that it's still a cult. Churches shouldn't be forced to accept gays either but Mormonism has always been something on the fringe. Similar to the Catholic faith of Mel Gibson.

[vaberella]

6. OMG---this scares the shit out of me.

They said they didn't do that shit any more. But they are still doing it. What the fuck is this?!

[rbrnmw]

9. It's some of the most whacked out shit I've ever seen

thanks for the nightmares OP LOL

[Jamastiene]

308. +1000000

When I watched it, I was saying, "What fresh hell is this?!?!?" Holy fucking shit! Can't the Republican Party find a candidate to run that isn't a freaky ass space alien worshiping cultist?

[hatrack]

19. Seriously, What. The. Fuck.

I particularly liked the bit about the oath of blood vengeance against the United States.

Fucking lovely.

[rbrnmw]

31. We need to get this fucking video

on every right leaning website that we can!! Wonder what freepers would think of this?

[Volaris]

155. That it's a set-up job by those damned dirty Liberals, just out to destroy Christian America...

and relpace it with a bunch of heathen, Pagan devil-worship.

Or something to that effect. Although, considering that a lot of this seems to spring from old Masonic Rites, maybe they will have a collective Freak-out, and decide they would rather stay home on election day, than try to get their little minds around the idea that ALL religions beleive some wierd and illogical shit.

What strikes me as funny though, is the idea that there is still a "Veil" at all. In Christian mythology, at the moment of Christ's death, there was an earthquake, and as a result, the "veil" seperating the Holy of Holies from the rest fo the Temple was ripped apart, and there was no longer a barrier between God and Man, all was open and accessible.
My personal expierence of this idea was the first time I was in the Sacristacy of a Catholic Church....there isn't anything special back there. No great secret, nothing that needs to be sought out, nothing special or distinct. THAT'S the secret. And when YOU figure that out, too, THEN you and I can truly Commune with each other on a deep spiritual level, in a way that we can't do with those who still think there IS something between God and Man.
There's nothing back there. Since the time of the dissappearance of the Ark of the Covenant, there HASEN'T been anything back there. And in that nothing, lie the keys to REALLY understanding all of the "something's" that are happening inside our Spiritual Selves. Christ knew this. So did The Buddah. So do a good number of modern Atheists.

Welcome to the Real World, Neo. We do hope you enjoy your stay.

[CoffeeCat]

361. Spread this far and wide on social media!

Seriously, this is some messed up, disturbing stuff.

The fact that Romney belongs to a church that has declared the United States an enemy is relevant indeed.

Remember how the Republicans spent weeks trying to discredit Obama, simply because Reverend Wright made some incendiary statements? They asserted that because Obama had attended that church, that he agreed with everything Wright said. Obama hadn't even attended that church recently!

Now, we discover that Romney's religion--one in which he was an elder and a full-blown PASTOR.

Mormon's also believe that Adam and Even lived in the Garden of Eden---and that the Garden of Eden was in Spring Hill, Missouri.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_do_Mormons_believe_the_first_man_and_woman_lived

Uhhhhh....okaayyy---

"Joseph Smith said in 1832 that the land where Adam and Eve lived after being cast out of the Garden was called Adam-ondi-Ahman (roughly translated to mean "Adam with God" or "Adam in the valley of God&quot . In 1838 the location of Adam-Ondi-Ahman was revealed as a place then called Spring Hill (or Wight's Ferry) in Missouri. After the Mormons were kicked out of Missouri it was renamed Cravensville.

Now, most of the site that Joseph said was Adam-ondi-Ahman is owned by the Church and is used as farmland and a visitor site. It is about 3000 acres and is located on the bluffs above the Grand River in Daviess County, Missouri. You can learn more about the site at the "Related Links" below."

[nadinbrzezinski]

268. Well apart of being like most religions

With it's aspects of secrecy, the oath for a theocratic state is not unlike what a few fundies preach.

Fascinating though...

[vaberella]

410. You're telling me Catholics do shit like this?

I don't remember that being the case. Most of the Catholic secrets are basically out now.

[CountAllVotes]

368. I went to one of these

It was a long long time ago. The Mormons were trying to convert my very CATHOLIC mother to their ways.

They managed to get her and the rest of my family to attend a baptism at one of their temples and yes, it scared the shit out of me too!

The little boy being baptized was held under the water for about a minute or longer. I wondered if they were going to drown him, I really did.

After that, my late father decided that he did not want these people coming around bothering his family any longer and he dealt with it in a way that most men would not have dealt with it.

However, his attempt to be rid of them worked like a charm and they quit coming around to the house and bothering my mother.

They are freaks of the worse sort IMO and dangerous, plain dangerous.

As for Jesus and all of that stuff, uh huh ... yeah ... right ...

[snagglepuss]

399. Likewise. It reminds me of the secret Moonie ritual in Washington during bushco.

[underthematrix]

7. Damn. What the hell was that?

Do they believe in aliens? And doesn't that veil thingie mimic early practices in the Bible? It also reminds me of Egyptian rituals.

[L0oniX]

10. I'm expecting Morons to riot and go off on a killing spree over this.

[Zalatix]

131. If they did, would this video be guilty of inciting violence?

[L0oniX]

145. You got it.

[Anthony McCarthy]

11. Holy cows

Holy cows, what a bunch of obviously pagan symbolism. I guess this will separate the goats from the sheep. Surprised to see the cheesy Masonic clap trap.

[hatrack]

15. Fascinating - the Presence of the Lord looks like a Sheraton Suites lobby

[defacto7]

46. No, Marriott

hehe

[hatrack]

67. But of course!

[littlemissmartypants]

16. ,

[Spitfire of ATJ]

409. Running from a baptism?

[LisaL]

18. That should be send to every tea partier.

How do you like them apples?

[The Hitman]

30. About 100,000 views since yesterday

pretty soon it just may

[LisaL]

65. Do they realize how far from Christianity this religion really is?

Doesn't it make so much sense to write in Jesus instead?

[OldDem2012]

103. Did you notice the stated belief in multiple gods? How could any of the Fundies go along with this?

[Jamastiene]

310. I don't see how they could go along with it.

I know the right wing Christians where I live would freak out if they saw this.

[cthulu2016]

21. So what? This isn't the first David Lynch movie I've seen.

[trailmonkee]

102. his curtains are a little darker

[OldDem2012]

105. Ha!! nt.

[hifiguy]

261. Lynch films make much more sense.

Lynch deals in dream images. The LDSers seem to traffic in nightmares that manage to remain astonishingly banal. Still, that is deeply weird shit that the Mormons get up to.

[Canuckistanian]

22. They seem to like white things

Clothes, furniture, interior decor...

And ritual that dwarfs any Catholic practice.

Spooky.

And yet, this is Mitt's world.

[LisaL]

24. Seems so un-christian like, doesn't it?

[progressoid]

212. They seem to like white things

...people.

[reusrename]

251. makes "wonder bread look dark and mysterious"

I guess white hoods would be too on the nose.

[OldDem2012]

25. That's definitely disturbing, especially the part about....

...replacing the "civil government" with a "religious government administered by Mormons".

Is that what they think will happen if Romney is elected president???

[LisaL]

28. I don't know, and I don't want to find out.

[jerseyjack]

32. You Betcha'

[rbrnmw]

42. yes it appears to be exactly what they think

Romney is a full temple member and him and Ann have participated in these rituals so they are fruitcakes at best

[braddy]

174. People don't realize that Ann, Mitt, and Harry Reid, are all Temple Mormons.

[obamanut2012]

64. Yes -- wiki White Horse Prophecy

[aletier_v]

76. I think I told you that yesterday. :)

[Berlum]

216. Yes - that's what they want

They want to take down the USA.

[DollarBillHines]

343. Absolutely

That's a basic tenet of the cult.

[quinnox]

26. posting just to save to watch later

I'm always interested in this kind of thing. Secret stuff intrigues me.

[hatrack]

29. Definitely going viral - it's risen 100+ hits in the past five minutes just here

nt

[Lone_Star_Dem]

33. Is this for real?

It looks like a cheesy B flick. Is this seriously what they do in their Temple?

[cthulu2016]

36. Yes, it is.

[FreeState]

53. Yes it's real - I have been before and it's real n/t

[Lone_Star_Dem]

55. Well, you can't blame me for asking.

It's quite over the top. It also goes against some core teaching that Evangelicals believe.

[The Hitman]

41. It looks substantially similar to that scene from Big Love which caused all that controversy

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/09/hbos-big-love-to-show-mormon-temple-ceremony/

[Lone_Star_Dem]

58. You're right it does.

I'd forgotten about that controversial bit from HBO. It showed some of what it's like, but it didn't show the depth of the rituals they preform.

This is some odd stuff.

[defacto7]

56. yup!!

[obamanut2012]

60. Yes -- an ex LDS friend had a Temple wedding

[libdem4life]

34. Evangelicals will not like this one bit. Kind of breaks through their deniability. Uncomfortable

to watch. Many remember the late Walter Martin. I don't think it ends well for the Romneys.

It's the New Agers ... equally detested by the RWers ... that truly believe that all personal beliefs are fine, as long as they are sincere and don't try to force them on others.

[nc4bo]

38. whoa.

Just whoa.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

39. OK, that's some weird shit.

Looks more like a fraternity initiation (without the liquor) than a religious ceremony, and the "Celestial Room" resembles a hotel lobby.

I will grant you that most religions have some rituals and beliefs that, viewed objectively, seem kind of weird. Most of us are so familiar with traditional Christianity that we hardly notice the weird parts any more. But I can understand why some Christians might consider the LDS church cultic and heretical, especially the belief that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are actually separate, individual gods, and there's all that goofy stuff with secret handshakes and veils they stole from the Freemasons. And the planet Kolob. You've got to be kidding me, Mormons. A planet?

They actually have a hymn about the planet Kolob in their hymnal:

#!

It's actually quite beautiful - it's set to a lovely English folk song, Dives and Lazarus. But the lyrics are seriously strange:

If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity,
Find out the generation Where Gods began to be?

Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end?
Me thinks the Spirit whispers, “No man has found ‘pure space,’
Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place.”

The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit; There is no end to grace.

There is no end to virtue; There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom; There is no end to light.
There is no end to union; There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood; There is no end to truth.

There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;
There is no end to being; There is no death above.
There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;
There is no end to being; There is no death above.

[snagglepuss]

396. ""Celestial Room" resembles a hotel lobby. "

Effing spot on. ROFLMAO.


That said the planet Kolob belief blows me away. I am shocked that I have never read about it before this. I wonder if L R Hubbard glommed on to this when he created scientology.

[waddirum]

417. LDS is just steampunk Scientology

eom

[defacto7]

44. Well, there you have it folks!

I came to DU originally to express my personal "concern" if you will, about the Mormon connection to American politics and Mitt Romney. I wrote about it probably in excess but it seems there was plenty of information that was getting around. Here is a great example and a reminder of how crazy it is. With Romney and the Mormons, you have connections between church and state that are not only utterly bizarre but pose a danger to the constitution and our freedoms.

I got quite a lot of support here on the subject but also a lot of disbelief, and I don't blame those who thought my message was too weird to be true. But true it is.

Thanks Hitman for backing up the facts about that zany and madcap world of Mormonism.

Who would want that for president?

[Cha]

73. I seemed to have missed all that but want

to thank you for exposing what did, defacto.

mitt's obviously a dangerous man and the Mormonism is part of him and should not be "off limits" because it's his religion. Not mormonism.

The corporatemedia didn't keep Obama's religion off limits.

[ReallyIAmAnOptimist]

45. What bothers me most...

... is (1) that Mormonism was officially racist until 1978, and (2) they believe they will take over the US -- see the White Horse Prophesy [http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/11635-romney-a-horse-of-a-different-color].

Worried about Separation of Church and State?

[renate]

94. Welcome to DU!

And I certainly share your worries. It's crazy, isn't it, that a devoted, dedicated member of a church with a history like that is even close to becoming President?

[DonRedwood]

400. Welcome to DU!

[Barack_America]

47. What the hell did I just watch?

I had no idea this religion was so far-removed from Christianity.

[rbrnmw]

54. Scary as hell isn't it

and it's real

[Phoonzang]

48. If it's on Reddit, it'll be all over the news tomorrow.

It always works that way.

[libdem4life]

49. Was that a real baby that got dunked over and over?

Imagine that would feel like a kind of freaky waterboarding if it were alive. At least the Catholics just sprinkle a few drops of holy water and the protestants make them wait until they are of the age of accountability.

[amandabeech]

163. That was a baptism, not a confirmation.

Many mainline Protestant churches baptize infants, but wait until the teenage years to teach the church doctrines and bring those young people who accept the church teaching officially into the church through the Confirmation ceremony. Yours truly had a doctrinal difference with the pastor and did not even attempt confirmation.

Roman Catholics also baptize infants, then teach the children enough doctrine to do First Communion at what, 7 or 8 and then do Confirmation at 10 or so. Catholic DUers, please feel free to correct me.

[IDemo]

50. I've wondered which of my co-workers are Mormon, now I know

[Mariana]

122. LOL, everyone looks freaky in cleanroom gear. nt.

[Poiuyt]

62. Does everyone remember that youtube cartoon explaining Mormonism?

[jsr]

194. A classic

[ProfessionalLeftist]

63. In relation to Mitt's LDS ties, there's also this:

. . .

So we have two guys who are/were co-chairs for the Romney campaign. One takes out an ad to out a gay reporter publicly as revenge for making an investigative series on the LDS church covered up child molestation and the other ran an organization that tortured and molested children.

These men were hired by the Romney Campaign.

. . .

In shorter terms, Mitt Romney & Bain Capital owned a facility that tortured, molested, and even killed children.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/21/1148077/-Mitt-Romney-Pals-Around-with-Child-Molesters

[littlemissmartypants]

75. "Mitt Romney's Mormon Secrets"

Last edited Mon Oct 22, 2012, 01:30 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.lds-mormon.com/mittromney2012.shtml

[LeftyMom]

77. You guys should watch the whole thing. *link* It's really weirder than that let on.

I was raised Roman Catholic, so the thing that struck me was the awful production values. :O

[aletier_v]

80. substance before style, baby. just like Mitt Romney! :)

[Liberalynn]

256. Wonder if Mittens has sudden Romensia over his 'secret name'

[LeftyMom]

296. Nah, he needs that to get past the velvet rope into the really good, Mormons only heaven.

Queen Ann only gets to go if he decides to invite her. Even if she's the best Mormon housewife in the history of Mormon housewives, the unspoken threat behind their relationship is that she has to keep him happy or she can't go to heaven and spend eternity with her creepy kids, because her eternal fate isn't up to some god, it's up to Mitt.

Bonus fact: If Mitt were to be a widower and remarried, he could be married to both wives in the afterlife. No great surprise, it doesn't work that way for the ladies- they have to pick one.

[Liberalynn]

311. Queen Ann will probably get invited considering he needs her to "stabilize him".

[obamanut2012]

319. I actually think the husband gets to pick whioch one(s)

He can reject any or all of his wives, and she is stuck in the not-really-heaven Gentile Heaven.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

280. I'm a glutton for punishment, so I watched the whole thing. Gahh!

It's a weird pastiche of Old Testament stuff, Freemasonry and B-movie dialogue. For an allegedly Christian religion, they mention Jesus only in passing (yeah, he's our saviour, whatever; now let's get back to the secret handshakes). What I can't figure out is why anybody would want to go to a church that's so hokey and boring - as well as weird. OK, most religions have their weird moments, but at least give me some good music and inspiring thoughts to temper the weirdness. This was all weird. Also, no good music, bad production values and incoherent doctrine. And what were the guys wearing on their heads? Shower caps?

[Zorra]

78. Holy jumpin' possums! That's some serious scary right there.

"Don't get on that ship! The rest of the book,the Book of Mormon, it's...it's a COOKBOOK!!!

No way I ever want a Mormon to be President. jay-zo-peets!

[backscatter712]

82. Wow, compared to the ritual cannibalism and vampirism of the Christian deity, this is far out, man!

I didn't know that Heaven looked like the lobby of a Marriott!

[Marr]

83. I don't see how Mormonism is more ridiculous than any other religion.

I was never taken to church as a kid, and grew up not knowing even the basic tenets of Christianity. When I started taking Art History in high school, I had the damndest time keeping the Biblical stories separate from the Greek myths in my mind. I was constantly mixing them up.

[Barack_America]

85. It's just obviously VERY removed from Christianity.

Which I'm not sure many people realized. I didn't.

[Egalitarian Thug]

99. Which Christianity? Even the Christians can't agree on what it is.

And BTW, there is not one scintilla of evidence that this Jesus person they all worship ever existed during the time of his supposed existence.

Just an FYI.

[OldDem2012]

108. The multiple gods idea the Mormons believe is pretty different from the Christian monotheism. nt.

[Egalitarian Thug]

136. Except for those Catholics and their (sort of) Trinity wherein there is this son of God that is God

working through the institutional version of God.

The Mormons are nuts, but then again so are all the others. There are a reported 41,000 versions of Christianity in the world today. All of them claiming to be The One True Faith and path to salvation.

I'm not in any way defending the Mormon version of crazy, but I think it is only a matter of degree.

[obamanut2012]

206. You woefully misunderstand Catholicism and the Trinity

Catholics do not believe in multiple gods. Catholic doctrine, and the writings of Church theologians, clearly state the parallelism of The Godhead. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being.

Three in One, and One in Three.

[Egalitarian Thug]

262. Yeah I know, the Jezzies were really disappointed in me, too.

I kept confusing their God with a psychotic.

[_ed_]

287. That's gotta be the most hilarious way to pretend

that a religion with multiple gods isn't polytheistic. "Three in one, and one in three." Try using that one in first grade math.

[obamanut2012]

313. No, that is the paralellism of The Gidhead

And, that phrase was coined by the Anglican Church many years ago to explain the Trinity to children, since it is a concept that even adults struggle with, as your post to me shows. Legend says St. Patrick used a shamrock to explain the concept to the Irish. One can even use the three-headed dog guarding Hades, if one wants. Christianity is a monotheistic religions, as is Judaism and Islam.

It doesn't matter whether or not you believe it, which I personally do not, as I am an atheist, but even a nonbeliever can understand it from an academic POV.

[_ed_]

356. I stopped reading at "three headed dog"

Religion is fucking absurd. Three headed dog, talking snake, three gods are really one...

[obamanut2012]

366. I'm sad for you you never studied Greek Mythology

Such a void in your life.

So very open of you to not finish reading someone's thoughtful reply to you and just post you quit reading, so I will no longer continue a dialog with you that is not a dialog.

[braddy]

173. Most Christian denominations are on the same page, same religion, that is why you are only baptized

once, ALL Christian denominations from Greek Orthodox, to Protestant, to Catholic, agree that Mormonism is not Christian, and that they need to be baptized if they join a Christian church.

[Egalitarian Thug]

178. And you speak for all Christians...

Well, it's about time. Where the hell have you been? There's about a billion of you that have been waiting for a couple millennia, not to mention the Jews that have been waiting for about six.

You've got a lot of work to do and I'm sure that it would be appreciated if you'd get to it, please.

[braddy]

179. Of course not, but I have looked up all the major Christian churches teachings on Mormonism,

from the Orthodox, to Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterian and others, and Catholic, they are all in agreement on Mormonism.

Mormonism is polytheistic for one thing and they believe that they can become Gods, and that God used to be a man, etc.

[greyl]

106. Mormonism is to Christianity like Missouri is to the South.

From Manitoba, Missouri looks a hell of a lot like the South and fits right in there.

[OldDem2012]

112. When you make comments like that you piss off a lot of Dems and Progressives....

...who live in the South.

Is that what you intended?

[greyl]

114. I'd be happy to reply to them one at a time. :) nt

[OldDem2012]

120. You can start with me. They're millions of us....

...throughout every state in the South so you'll be quite busy.

[greyl]

138. Ok.

Last edited Mon Oct 22, 2012, 03:15 AM - Edit history (1)

No, I didn't intend to piss off lots of Dems and progressives. Additionally, being someone in one of those states in the South, I doubt I did.

[OldDem2012]

234. Whatever you say. We're done. nt.

[greyl]

457. Nice because my post didn't disparage the South in the least.

It was about Mormonism and Christianity and how Mormonism looks from outside both Mormonism and Christianity.

[cali]

186. I do. At least from several.

for one thing, JSmith isn't hidden in the mists of the ancient. He's a figure from the 19th century and it's not supposition that he was a con man; it's documented. Secondly, there are no great Mormon texts. You will never study The Book of Mormon as great literature. There are, that I have seen, no bits of great or original philosophy as there are in, for instance, The Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran.

Most main stream protestant churches don't practice the kind of "magic" that Mormons do. They believe that there is a heaven, but they don't encourage belief in planets that men rule over. Heaven, in fact, in most mainstream Christian religions, is a vague notion and the focus isn't on domination in heaven as it is in Mormonism. The rituals in Mormonism are far more elaborate and heightened. The secrecy is greater.

There's a lot more, but those are significant.

[Marr]

277. From where I'm standing, I don't see any of those differences.

Apart from the age of the religion, of course.

When I finally learned the story of Moses, I laughed my ass off in exactly the same way I laughed at the story of Joseph Smith. And Mohammed, for that matter. They're basically the same story, and the same con, and I still can't believe people were so gullible as to fall for it when done right in front of them.

As for great writing, I've read the Bible. Let's be honest-- apart from a couple of choice sections like the Song of Songs, the Bible is not great literature. It's a fractured collection of self-contradictory Bronze Age scriblings, and that's exactly what most of it reads like. I haven't read the Book of Mormon, but I can't imagine it's any more nonsensical or boring than the Bible.

I also don't see any real difference between Mormon magic and mainstream Christian magic. Protestant churches seem to be more toned down in *style*, but the substance is no different. And if we compare it to a flavor of Christianity like Catholicism, I can't even see a difference in style.

[lolly]

378. Mormonism evolved in a post-enlightenment world

Disclaimer--not a Christian--closer to agnostic, but--

In its defense, the bizarre stories and beliefs of the Bible (OT and NT) were written at a time when people really had no way of knowing any differently.

If you have no scientific explanation for why crops live or die, it might make sense to imagine/hope for a deity to control them, and then give sacrifices to that deity.

If you don't know anything about geology or evolution, theorizing that a deity created a man and a woman makes as much sense as anything else.

After 100s of years, these beliefs were too enmeshed with culture itself to disappear or diminish despite decreasing relevance.

Mormonism didn't arise in a culture from a collection of such beliefs; it was created whole-cloth by a huckster who wanted power and access to young women, and who knew how to use promises of magical rituals and an afterlife to pull people in. In that respect, it's definitely in the same category with Scientology and the Moonies.

[SmileyRose]

86. I am impressed with the lack of spin

Good video and accurate

[amandabeech]

89. I grew up in the United Methodist Church, a mainline Protestant denomination.

My recollection, and it is only that, is that Methodists believe God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are not separate, although I never could figure out the relationship to my satisfaction.

The belief that the Holy Trinity consists of three separate Gods wouldn't fit in there at all.

Any pastor who preached that would be recalled, counseled, and, if the pastor did not correct her/his view, would be defrocked.

As far as I'm concerned, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but I just don't see this as Christianity.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

98. If you go by what traditional Christians believe -

the Nicene Creed is the accepted statement of doctrine in most denominations - the LDS Church isn't Christian at all, even though they claim to be. Designating Father, Son and Holy Spirit as separate gods would be nothing short of heresy. Same with their belief that Satan was Jesus' "spirit brother." And the idea that a good Mormon (male) gets his own planet after death, and he will be the "god" of that planet. And that "God" once lived on another planet with a higher god.

Mormon cosmology bears little resemblance to traditional Christianity. They claim to believe Jesus is the divine son of God, but the similarity seems to end there.

The Spanish Inquisition would have had a field day with the Mormons.

[amandabeech]

121. You're right.

It's just so different. Satan as Jesus's "spirit brother." Stand up in a Baptist church and proclaim that. Good luck.

I don't understand how the Conservative Christians can vote for this guy.

Well, I know how they can.

[LeftInTX]

153. I think we need to bring back the Spanish Inquisition and apply to Romney

Can't wait to show this video to my husband who's planning to vote for
Romney.

And he's voting for Romney cuz we're Catholic.

Bring on those old Catholics from Spain.

[amandabeech]

164. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

I'd love to see the SI rake the Mormons over the coals--figuratively, of course.

I hope that the video brings your husband to his senses.

You know, I recall reading that Paul Ryan spoke at Georgetown U. a few months ago, and about 90 of the teachers and religious there wrote him a letter pointing out that his social policies had very little to do with Catholic teachings on those subjects, and asked him to consider whether the atheist Ayn Rand was a suitable teacher on social policies for a Catholic.

Maybe your husband would benefit from reading that letter. I don't have the cite available, but I'm sure that you can find it.

[obamanut2012]

129. Three in One, and One in Three

If you don't believe that, you aren't Christian. I no longer believe that, so I'm not Christian.

[backscatter712]

90. Worshipers of the Lords of Kolob.

The Lords of Kobol are much cooler.

So say we all!

[obamanut2012]

130. Glenn Larson is LDS

[Fla Dem]

217. Do you mean Glenn Beck? He is LDS. Don't know who Glenn Larson is. n/t

[obamanut2012]

225. No, Glen Larson

The creator of BSG. There is a huge amount of LDS symbolism in the 1980 BSG, and some of course, still lingers in the new series.

[backscatter712]

293. BSG can definitely be described as Mormons in Space!

The exodus of the Twelve Colonies and their journey to Earth is comparable to the exodus of the Mormons from Missouri and their journey to Utah, IIRC.

[obamanut2012]

294. There used to be a wiki on Mormonism in BSG

You should see if it's still there -- fascinating!

[backscatter712]

305. I remember an episode from the original series...

Where Count Iblis (aka the Devil) was trying to tempt the fleet, and these beings of light were buzzing the fleet and making Vipers disappear.

Turns out that they were akin to angels, and the interior of their spaceship looked like the Celestial Room in the Mormon Temple - white upon white EVERYTHING!

Yeah, I definitely see the Mormon influence.

[obamanut2012]

314. Oh yeah, that episode is infamous!

By necessity, the reimagined series had to keep some of the LDS trappings, but really toned it down quite a bit. I actually quite enjoyed the whole thread of the series being a faith journey for many of the characters, including clashes between mono and polytheism, refusing resurrection, Starbuck's situation, etc. I'm no longer a believer, but I think the new series handled it all very well.

The original series was one I watched as a child, and I loved it!

[backscatter712]

318. Do you think Mitt Romney is a Cylon?

[obamanut2012]

321. He is a One

[backscatter712]

332. Cavil Romney... Yeah, I see it!

I'll bet that if you go into the super-secret sub-basements of the Mormon Temples, you'll see a Hybrid in a goo tub babbling metaphysics!

[obamanut2012]

336. rofl

[RiverStone]

91. I hope the MSM gets hold of this crazy shit and spreads the word

I would not expect it to cause a rightie to switch, but it may create a pause before voting for Mitt, who does not see the universe the same way as their fundie brains do.

[TwilightGardener]

92. Why the need for secrecy? How odd is it that many Mormons

themselves never witness these rituals, or are allowed in certain parts of the temple? Is there any other religion that shuts so many people out of full participation (unless they tithe enough)? What I saw isn't terribly disturbing, anyway--just seemed silly.

[Barack_America]

118. Scientology??

Seriously, actually.

"Is there any other religion that shuts so many people out of full participation (unless they tithe enough)?"

[obamanut2012]

134. SCientology

And, what you saw is VERY serious, especially for women. They cannot get into Heaven unless their husband draws them through the veil. I had an LDS bishop tell me once that if a woman's husband dies, and she remarries, only the first husband can draw her through, and that is who she will have celestrial babies with on his planet... even if he died an hour after they were married, and she was married to her second husband for 70 years.

In the Gospels and The Acts, Jesus treats women about like equals, and is very loving to the,. Christianity, as per the Gospels and The Acts, is NOT a really sexist religion. In Mormonism, women are brood mares, and really not much else. BYU's biggest degree program for females is the MRS degree.

[littlemissmartypants]

93. Reddit

Video of Mormon temple using a hidden camera going viral. Over 75,000 views in the last 14 hours. Welcome to the age of information Mitt Romney.

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/11umj8/video_of_mormon_temple_using_a_hidden_camera/

[HarveyDarkey]

95. Commenting so I can watch later.

[LeftInTX]

156. I commented so I could show my husband later.

[Jamastiene]

316. There is a longer version linked above.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021597225#post77

It gets freakier.

[AzDar]

96. White. Horse. Prophecy.

[trailmonkee]

97. I am pretty sure this is what billy Graham saw when he decided to declasify mormonism as a cult

[toby jo]

100. nope it's not christianity

imagine if they had a history of burning people alive at a stake

and of an inquisition whereby people were systematically tortured

and of starting holy wars?

get your shit together people

it's goofy, not evil

[obamanut2012]

139. Then you need to study LDS

Doctrine and history.

And reread The Gospels and The Acts.

LDS is much closer to Scientology than to Methodism or Catholicism.

[snagglepuss]

448. THeir stated mission to set up a theocracy is evil. I think you need to do some reserarch.

[Skip Intro]

104. Let's assault a religion to harm a politician.

Youtube vid "mocking" Islam? Thread after thread about intolerance and racism.

Youtube vid attacking Mormonism? Rec away.

This place sometimes.

[RiverStone]

113. Mitt's religious beliefs would harm the electorate

I'm all for freedom of religion - tho in this case (as a severe conservative) he would impose his "religious beliefs" on the public. That's totally unacceptable. Gotta fight fire with fire.

[Jamastiene]

325. They already have.

White Horse Prophecy. Remember Prop 8 and the millions of dollars they funneled into passing that in California.

[OldDem2012]

115. Don't you have to qualify as a religion before you can be assaulted?....

...Did you watch the video? If so, does that appear to be similar to any religion you know?

[eShirl]

185. What exactly are the qualifications for a religion, then?

This should be interesting.

[Barack_America]

117. Gotta disagree with you. Romney is passing his beliefs off as "basically" Christianity.

This video calls into question the claim he has made to the voting public.

Doesn't matter to me, as I don't vote based on religion, but it does matter to some and they also deserve to know the truth about what they're voting for.

[CreekDog]

119. If you want to stay ignorant of Mormon belief, go ahead, we choose not to be ignorant of it

and telling about a religion is not attacking it.

in fact, the only people in my life who considered talking about Mormonism an "attack" were Mormon (the ones with few doubts about their religion...of course there were many with severe doubts who had the same concerns that us on the outside have about what they are told to believe).

[Skip Intro]

146. You seem ever-so-ready to compromise any loyalty

one might assume you have to honesty and fairness, all in the name of scoring some imaginary points.

There is one reason and one reason only this video is out now, and here now.

That is to attack the religion of the repub nominee in order to discourage voters from voting for him. To slander him by slandering his religion.

It stinks.

[cthulu2016]

147. Did the truth stop being an affirmative defense against slander?

[CreekDog]

148. i had to live with that religion for long enough to criticize it anytime i damn well please

[Skip Intro]

149. Well hate away, CD.

Just don't demand I do as well.

[CreekDog]

150. it's not hate

go ahead and join if you respect it so much.

let me know what you find out afterwards.

[ChaoticTrilby]

374. FUN FACT: Criticism =/= Hate

The OP's thread was meant for criticism of Romney and his own use of his faith for political aims. By claiming that his Mormonism is basically just like Christianity, he is intentionally misleading voters. It's skeevy. I do not vote based on faith, but I do base my vote at least slightly on how much a candidate can be trusted.

This is just further proof to indicate that Romney so enjoys deceiving people for his own gain and it is disgusting.

[OldDem2012]

165. Sorry, no. What stinks is Mitt trying to pass this mess off as a Christian religion...

...when it is at best a religion based on the worship of multiple gods, and at worst a cult. Now we know why Mitt has never wanted to talk about Mormonism or his role in that organization.

As far as slandering Mitt goes, Mitt has done a far better job of doing that to himself than I could ever hope to do.

The video can speak for itself. If it causes people not to vote for Mitt, so be it.

[siligut]

304. Mormonism is a mind-controlling cult

And I know some ex-Mormons who hoped that Romney's candidacy would expose the cult for what it is. Maybe they will finally get some satisfaction.

[Jamastiene]

326. It is not slander when it is true.

There are numerous links in this thread to documents in the Library of Congress that prove it is true. It is not slander when it is true.

[Waiting For Everyman]

133. When that politician has every liklihood of legislating his religion,

and that religion has hated and plotted vengeance against this country, and this politician's own grandparents were even outlaws against it...

You betcha, I'll plot against that religion all day long, up one side and down the other! No qualms about that whatsoever.

[Zalatix]

135. I'd have to disagree with this thread.

EXCEPT, for the fact that Romney probably DOES plan on legislating his religion. Or, at least, he will try.

Even if he's President, though, he will fail to legislate any aspect of Mormonism. So this thread, IMO, is fair play.

Romney will, however, bring Calvinism to America. On steroids.

[cthulu2016]

140. Yup. He has stated he is going to return God to American government

So there's no reading between the lines needed

[Jamastiene]

327. Which God?

I'm against theocracy of any kind, but there are many people that would absolutely balk at the thought of a god from another planet being the "God" Romney "returns" to American government. That thought is downright scary.

[MrSlayer]

142. Fuck this attitude. Look at what they do to us.

You're damn right I'll attack his "religion" if it will hurt him. This isn't a game where honor and all that crap matters. These people want to destroy our way of life, we have to hurt them any way we can.

All religions should be scorned but this one in particular is threatening our country right now. If Romney wins we are beyond fucked. Any means necessary.

[Skip Intro]

157. Glad you admit the goal here is to harm Romney, by any means necessary.

We attack his religion, and all who belong to that religion, for the sole reason of harming his chances to be elected. Whatever works. No boundaries. Any means necessary.

That's pretty much it, yes?

Yeah.

Damn, MrSlayer, I generally like your posts.

Don't like this one, though.

So intolerant and kinda repulsive.

And if this is where we are, we're in bad shape this election.

[OldDem2012]

168. So, you actually believe Mormonism is a religion? Seriously??....

...Before I saw this video and did some additional research I might have believed it too.

Just a quick comment./...just in case you haven't noticed, the President has been attacked and vilified by the right-wingers for more than fours years, going back to when he ran in 2008. Are you trying to tell us that Romney should be exempt from from the same treatment.

This is big-boy politics, so pull up your panties and get with it, or find something else to do.

[snooper2]

211. Yes, it is a religion...all religions are goofy...

This is just one you are less familar with.

[OldDem2012]

230. Religion? No. It's no wonder I'm "less familiar" with Mormonism because...

...until this video surfaced I knew very little of their inner workings. Now I'm making it my personal business to learn as much as I can about this cult, and it is most definitely a cult.

Most religions, and I've studied most of them, are a lot more open in sharing their core beliefs with outsiders. That's a big part of how they all recruit new converts.

Whether or not a true religion is "goofy" is in the eye of the beholder, but this video proves Mormonism is extreme in the truest sense of the word.

[snooper2]

233. A book telling you to smite your neighbors for working on a Sunday

Is pretty fucking extreme to me LOL

[OldDem2012]

239. Hmmmm. Are you talking about the passage in the Old Testament, Exodus 35:2?....

...The passage states, “For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD . Whoever does any work on it must be put to death”? Is that the passage to which you're referring?

If so, then you probably also know this passage is not taken literally by anyone these days but the most extreme believers, since it went out of favor with the decline of the rabbinical bet din court system in roughly the 3rd century AD.

Those who do take this passage seriously to the point of killing someone for working on the Sabbath are indeed on the very extreme edges of the Judeo/Christian belief system.

So, tell me again about Judeo/Christian religions being as extreme as the Mormon cult. What else you got?

[snooper2]

249. Well we can go into history and crusades and shit, but I guess you want to stick to modern day

How about at the end of Matthews has 500 zombies walking around town,

Also, the simple fact that for a couple pretty minor crimes an all powerful all "loving" being will send you to a place of eternal torture in pretty extreme in itself. Not a whole lot of flowers and love being spread around



Also from a simple googles search-

Don’t Get Married: 1st Corinthians 7:27 NASB

Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife.



Prayer (not doctors) if You’re Sick: James 5:14 NASB

Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.



Women Should Shut Up in Church: 1st Corinthians 14:34 NASB

The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak.



The Wealthy Will Be Condemned by God: James 5:1-5 NASB

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted… Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will… consume your flesh like fire. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.



Women: Don’t Dress Up, Fix Your Hair, or Wear Jewelry: 1st Peter 3:3 The Good News Translation

You should not use outward aids to make yourselves beautiful, such as the way you fix your hair, or the jewelry you put on, or the dresses you wear.



Return Runaway Slaves to Their Owners: Philemon 1:12 The Message

I’m sending (the slave Onesimus) back to you… I wanted in the worst way to keep him here… But I didn’t want to do anything behind your back… Maybe it’s all for the best that you lost him for a while. You’re getting him back now for good—and no mere slave this time, but a true Christian brother!



Gouge Out Your Eyeball: Matthew 5:29 New Living Translation

So if your eye—even your good eye—causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away.



Cut Off Your Own Hand: Matthew 5:30 New Living Translation

And if your hand—even your stronger hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.



Never Swear an Oath: Matthew 5:34 God’s Word Translation

Don’t swear an oath at all. (puts a new slant on the Pledge of Allegiance)



Don’t Defend Yourself if Attacked: Matthew 5:39 Amplified Version

But I say to you, Do not resist the evil man [who injures you]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too.



Give Anything You Have to Anyone Who Asks: Matthew 5:42 Common English Bible

Give to those who ask, and don’t refuse those who wish to borrow from you.



Do NOT Pray in Public: (Matthew 6:6) Common English Bible

When you pray, go to your room, shut the door, and pray to your Father… in that secret place.



Don’t Save Your Money: (Matthew 6:19) New Living Translation

Don’t store up treasures here on earth, where moths eat them and rust destroys them, and where thieves break in and steal.



Don’t Plan for The Future: Matthew 6:34 NASB

So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself.




Do Not Marry a Divorced Woman: Matthew 5:32 NASB

Whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.




Don’t Wear Nice Clothes: Matthew 6:28-29 NASB

And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you?




Hate Your Family: Luke 14:26 NASB

If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters… he cannot be My disciple.




Give Away EVERYTHING You Own: Luke 14:33 NASB

So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

[OldDem2012]

328. Sorry to disappoint you, but none of what you've mentioned is "modern day"...

...and all of it is part of the New Testament which was allegedly written by the end of the first Century AD. Admittedly, the books chosen to be part of the New Testament weren't completely decided upon until the fifth century AD, but we're still talking sixteen centuries ago.

I think even you will have to admit that Christian religious practices have changed a great deal since the fifth century AD.

Oh, FYI, the Crusades actually took place well after the fifth century AD, with the first crusade beginning in 1095.

What we're seeing on the video is CURRENT Mormon practices and rituals that began to take shape with the Mormon founder, Joseph Smith, Jr. in New York in 1830.

[snooper2]

344. are we really arguing over the internet with mythology is more ridiculous..

I've got video

[CreekDog]

172. thank you for your concern for Romney

his religion.

George Zimmerman, etc.

[MrSlayer]

182. I'm sorry to disappoint.

Truly I am. But that's how afraid I am of what these guys are going to do If they should win. When you're in a battle for your life against people that will stoop to any level, you have to be prepared to do the same. I don't want it to be this way but in the face of Citizens United, the black box voting and the suppression movement all around the country I think not using this angle is a mistake.

[snooper2]

210. I'm intolerant to all religions equally, so you can't single us all out for banging on poor Mormons

LOL...

Funny, watching show with Stephen Hawking talking about the creation of the Universe and all matter in it last night. No need for any of humans silly mythological gods for any of that to happen

[Liberalynn]

260. I watched that last night too

The Science Channel has been my anecdote to all the Right Wing Religious Wing Nut talk this silly season.

Heard enough of that in Catholic School, thank you very much.

[AtheistCrusader]

412. Were you paying attention to what the RNC did to Obama in 2008?

This shit is fair game now, folks.

[Tsiyu]

444. This so called "church"

forced its members to donate on Prop 8 - inserting itself into politics.

If the politically-minded would like to explore this so-called "church" - that tries to influence law in this nation - we have an OBLIGATION to expose what, exactly, this church believes.

No one is suggesting forcing any changes on the Mormon church here.

The Mormon Church IS INSISTING on raising its tenets of bigotry, sexism, misogyny, polygamy, homophobia, racism, etc. to a level equal with US law.

You want to support Mormons? Great. You want a hands off approach to an institution that has its hands IN politics? Good for you.

We don't.

[Blue_Tires]

291. I understand and agree with both your point and SkipIntro's point

My perspective is sometimes it's better to hold back for a moment and take a wait-and-see approach before jumping on this full-throttle...It could backfire if this video gets stamped to Mitt's campaign and personal beliefs too hard and too often, and he plays the sympathetic victim in response...

I'm not doubting the authenticity, but it's too sweet...The timing and magnitude of this "discovery" just creep me the fuck out...I'm not saying that makes it automatically bait; just don't fully embrace this opportunity yet...

[cthulu2016]

144. Two words for this: Proposition 8

[Starry Messenger]

209. Beat me to it.

They started all this by acting like a religious Super Pac and flooding my state with hate money. If they don't like blowback they can stay out of politics.

[highplainsdem]

248. It isn't "assaulting a religion" to want to know what their beliefs are.

[Marr]

282. How is this "assaulting a religion"?

It's just a video of what they actually do.

[Jamastiene]

322. Oh, those poor powerless Mormons...

who filtered millions of dollars into Prop 8 in California...from OTHER STATES. Sure, they are so powerless and just being picked on for their wacky beliefs. Poor things

[CreekDog]

107. Polygamy continues in the Mormon church, spiritually, if not physically

and sadly, for women married to husbands who do temple work, they may be one of many spiritual wives their husband has taken.

also, their spiritual fate (whether or not they go to heaven with their husband) is under his control and he can elect not to take her with him.

a lot of religions treat women badly and likewise, i think this LDS-specific belief is absolutely horrible for women.

[Waiting For Everyman]

110. That veil claptrap reminded me of the Wizard of Oz, only the dull and yet creepy version.

Agree, this is pure pagan and un-Christian. They might as well erect a giant golden calf again, it would be the same thing.

[amandabeech]

125. Did you notice the oxen with the golden horns at the edge of their baptismal pool?

But . . . they practice "family values" and don't want to pay taxes, especially to support social welfare programs for all.

[Waiting For Everyman]

141. Yup, sure did. I bet some Jews would be weirded out by that too.

I think they don't want to pay taxes because they hate everything this country is about. Swearing vengeance against the US is a fairly big deal in my book, even if they claim to have dropped that -- I don't buy it. I see them as pretty similar to the David Koresh people, only with better PR maybe.

[amandabeech]

161. The whole thing is just weird, weird, weird.

I think that the break-away polygamists as similar to Koresh because women and girls are so abused. I think that there was justification in going in to protect the minors from sexual abuse and general neglect.

The non-polygamists seem to be more akin to very conservative Christians, but boy-o-boy they are NOT Christians in either the good or bad varieties of the religion.

[Indpndnt]

152. It reminded me of the veil in Harry Potter that the dead floated through.

Seriously creepy. Mormonism, not Harry Potter.

[hifiguy]

111. That is effin' WACK.

[OldDem2012]

123. K & R. nt.

[tarheelsunc]

124. IMO, the "establishment of Zion" part is damning to Romney.

[redqueen]

127. Wow.

Yeah, this could affect the religious right's affection for Mitt.

I suppose the GOP is more worried about their wealthy voters than their fundie ones.

[OldDem2012]

166. I wonder how many Protestant churches have poured money into Mitt's campaign...

...after being convinced he was a Christian? I think they're going to be highly agitated if they see this video.

[Hamlette]

128. How can they do this with a straight face?

This people are adults. Must be completely brainwashed to do this temple thing.

[Sunlei]

132. you're adrift if you're not in the "insiders binder" in this group

This is what happens when you're stuck in the desert for decades. You hang around the few waterholes with the oxen and have a lot of time on your hands.

[Frank Cannon]

202. Absolutely. I grew up among the Mormons.

People don't realize (or refuse to realize) that in their culture, if you ain't Mormon, you ain't shit. If you won't convert, you are fair game for any crap they can lay on you.

That is not a stereotype. They consider themselves to absolutely be THE chosen people, and that is the culture they are raised in from the time they are in diapers.

[amborin]

143. Mormon ayatollahs want to turn the nation into a Mormon state...

[Catherine Vincent]

151. Did I just see longhorns in their place of worship? Creepy.

But I never thought the religious right would vote for Romney if he got the nomination. We shall see.

[CitizenPatriot]

158. the media are cowards

they will never ask Romney about his religion because he said it was off limits. They were happy to play Obama's preacher 24/7 because he was black and he sounded mad at america, but this swearing of an oath to seek vengeance on america is nothing. /s

[CreekDog]

159. I'm not judging it's rightness, but just saying it's a polytheistic religion

just simple facts. if Evangelicals don't have an issue with that, then they should drop their issues with Obama's religion.

and Mormonism differs from Christianity for this reason too:

"As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."

and "man" as in "not woman".

[LeftInTX]

160. Is this the October surprise?

[OldDem2012]

162. Showed my wife the video tonight and she was VERY shocked...that doesn't happen very often. nt.

[grantcart]

167. kick to come back to

[Tinksrival]

176. I'll second that.

Hi grantcart!

[Blue_In_AK]

180. Wow, that was enlightening.

I had no idea.

[mfcorey1]

181. The MSM tried to act as though Rev. Wright was the second coming of

Satan and they say nothing about these people and this cult. This is some scary stuff. That is why Mitt and his family are so sure he will win. They have made a pact with the devil. LOL Anyhow, that I am possessed look in in Tagg, Mitt and Ann's eyes. Anyone know a good exorcist?

[Glimmer of Hope]

183. What the? Is this for real?

[Ilsa]

184. PBS ran a special about the open practices

of LDS a few years ago, but they were NOT permitted to view or record the veil ceremony or the Celestial Room, or record the swearing of the blood oath against the US. The touching involved in wedding ceremonies wasn't discussed, either. It was more or an overview of the church and its history.

My understanding is that part of what makes LDS a cult is the difficulty in Leaving it, especially if you live in a community that is LDS, because then your livelihood is affected. Also, they are strict on tithing. An LDS friend said they require you to show W-2 information. I have never heard of a mainstream religion that does that or strictly requires tithing.

[justiceischeap]

189. The documentary about their involvement in Prop 8

talked about Bishops telling members what they had to contribute to the Prop 8 campaign. They weren't given a choice; their financials were looked at and then they were told what to give. If they refused to give, they'd be kicked out of the "church."

[Fearless]

188. Yay atheism!

[NoMoreWarNow]

190. exactly! I think the internet will eventually spell doom for all the old religions

[Fearless]

191. I think a lot of it has to do with...

The psychological tools employed by various religions to scare or impress people into following them. This video is a good example of that. The entire piece is meant to impress upon participants of the power of the church as well as the perceived authority it creates.

[txdemsftw]

228. Yes...I am PROUD to be an Athiest!

That video is truly disturbing.

[Fearless]

383. It definitely showcases the psychological aspect of religion

Also..

[hifiguy]

266. Yep. Reason works, and every time.

It is accessible to all. No cash payments required.

"Reason flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings." Victor Stenger

[ChaoticTrilby]

377. Here, here!

[TBF]

192. Freaks. nt

[WinkyDink]

204. A secretive, exclusionary RELIGION is NOT the same as a work-place;

birthday party; or the Anaheim, Azusa And Cucamonga Sewing Circle, Book Review And Timing Association.

[tanyev]

207. Marking to view later.

[superpatriotman]

208. Secret handshakes, passwords, Freemasonry?

It is like a conspiracy theorists wet dream!

Zion? A new U.S. government based on the Mormon faith, and revenge for the killing of the "Prophets"?

Jeesh.

[Barack_America]

231. If Mormonism had been invented 100 years later, Smith would've just sold it for a film script...

...and we would've been spared the cult.

[GoneOffShore]

246. Or he would have gotten together with L. Ron Hubbard.

And then we would blessed with Mormonology.

[Chiyo-chichi]

219. What a lot of people don't get is that this stuff is ANATHEMA to evangelicals.

There was a article linked from DU this weekend about President Obama being considered the "wrong kind of Christian" by some because he doesn't talk about a conversion moment or being "born again."

The business with the secret knocks, secret handshakes, and having to present a new secret name to get into heaven -- that alone is anathema to evangelicals, who believe that you get into heaven only by repenting of your sins and accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior.

If the presidential race really has tightened, I suspect that it is as much due to reluctant evangelicals getting on board with Romney as any debate performance. It is significant that only last week the Billy Graham organization removed Mormonism from its list of cults and Graham Jr. endorsed Romney. They could have done that when he got the nomination. But evangelicals have been reluctant to get behind Romney. They are either going to vote for him or stay home. The Romney campaign needs them to vote.

If some of them see this and say home... good.

[LisaL]

226. They should all see it. Every one of them.

[Chiyo-chichi]

250. I can't argue with that.

The other side is financing a DVD filled with lies about the President that is being sent to people in swing states.

There's nothing here that isn't true. But there's plenty that would make evangelicals stay home.

[OldDem2012]

240. Agree 100%. nt.

[Puzzledtraveller]

220. You do know there are Mormon DU members right?

Many of the comments on this thread are disgusting. I happen to be a Lutheran.

[LisaL]

227. I think the point of the video is that mormon religion is so different from christianity.

And most people don't realize how different it is.

[obamanut2012]

232. What comments are disgusting?

[OldDem2012]

243. There are Mormons everywhere. What's your point?....

...When dragged out from behind the "veil of secrecy" and exposed to the light of day, Mormonism is exposed for what it really is. A cult, not a religion.

Trust me, anyone who considers themselves to be Evangelical in any way is going to be appalled by what they see in this video.

[rbrnmw]

252. I totally agree It scared the shit out of me

but for a different reason the shit about seeking vengeance against the United States for the death of Joseph and Hyrum Smith

[Brickbat]

222. Physically baptising kids over and over in the name of dead people is bizarre.

Seriously, that's just gross.

[AllyCat]

244. That was beyond strange to me too. Until I heard the part about taking over

the US government, I thought it was the strangest part. Now it is all the more scary that Mittens is so close.

[OldDem2012]

254. I first encountered that practice while doing my family's genealogy....

...it's called "baptism for the dead", "vicarious baptism" or "proxy baptism".

I found LDS "baptismal" records for several relatives who I never knew were Mormons. When I checked dates, I realized they had died long before their LDS "baptismal" supposedly took place. I did additional research and discovered that the Mormons were actually taking death records from a variety of sources and using those to perform their "baptisms". The practice is still ongoing today as evidenced in the video.

When entering data for my relatives, I made sure to include a note about the bogus LDS "baptismals", and how those individuals were never Mormons.

[Brickbat]

335. I knew about bapitizing the dead -- I didn't know they made kids stand in for the dead people.

The former is weird; the latter is sick.

[rbrnmw]

345. I totaly agree It is very sick

Some may argue including me that it is abusive

[slackmaster]

235. Spying on people and posting videos of them on the Web isn't kosher

[LisaL]

236. I guess Romney's 47% video isn't kosher too?

[slackmaster]

237. No, it's not

[OldDem2012]

247. Well, at least you're consistent. But when you're at war, and believe me, we're at war....

...any intelligence about how the other side thinks and what they believe is absolutely necessary.

There is no place for idealism when you're fighting a foe who wants to reduce you to abject poverty and take away rights while they get richer by the second.

[Liberalynn]

257. +1

[slackmaster]

259. Rationalizations like that work well until someone publishes an unauthorized video of YOU

Or of your candidate.

[Call Me Wesley]

347. Ooopsie daisy.

"Your candidate?" That what's it about? I surely hope that this video does not hurt "your candidate" at all. Did you out yourself here just now or did I lost my glasses again?

[Vanje]

373. !

[The Magistrate]

253. Nice To See You Defending The Republican Nominee For President, Sir

You will deny it, of course, but that is exactly what you are doing by claiming the speech Romney gave at a closed door fund-raiser, in which he said a number of damning things, ought not to have been made public.

[slackmaster]

258. That's a mis-representation of my position, The Magistrate

I'm ATTACKING people who secretly take videos of people without their permission, and post them on the Internet without their permission.

That sword can cut both ways. It was sleazy and unethical when people used hidden cameras to make unauthorized videos of ACORN and Planned Parenthood. I spoke out against the people who did that, and now I'm speaking out against the people who made unauthorized videos of people in private worship services.

[The Magistrate]

264. No, Sir, It Is Not a Mis-Representation, It Is Accurate Description Of What You Are Doing

You are defending Romney, by stating it was wrong to circulate a tape of a speech in which, behind closed doors, thinking only a select group of persons who gave him money would hear, he said what he actually thinks, and in the process damned himself by his own mouth. You are extending that defense here, by complaining that bizarre rituals of Mormonism, which he participates in and believes in, ought not to be made public, either. Your comments sum up to this: 'If it's bad for Romney, don't for heaven's sake show it to anybody!' That, Sir, is advocating for the Republican nominee for President in the current election, and stating this is just stating plain fact.

[slackmaster]

265. How do you feel about the people who made embarassing videos of ACORN and Planned Parenthood?

Members of those organizations were caught engaging in highly unethical behavior. In case you don't remember, ACORN discussed giving financial aid to an apparent underage prostitute. Planned Parenthood agreed to take a donation and earmark it for abortions for African-American women.

Did you approve of people making and publishing those videos?

I did not.

[The Magistrate]

269. Apples And Oranges, Sir, Though it Does Not Surprise Me To See You Standing Up For O'Keefe Also

There is a difference between simply recording what happens and disseminating it, and acting as a provocateur to produce an artificial artifact compounded of lies and misrepresentations through selective editing.

If someone had simply maintained a camera in an ACORN office for a space of hours, secretly, and then circulated the film, it would nkit trouble me; it also would probably have been of no value to people seeking to destroy the organization, either.

And do not imagine you will be allowed to wriggle off the point: you are defending the Republican nominee for President here, just as you defended calls for a Republican Congress to oppose President Obama, on the spurious ground of claiming President Obama has 'an extreme anti-gun agenda', just like every spokes-person for the N.R.A. and the Republican party does.

[slackmaster]

278. That's a steaming pantload.

...you are defending the Republican nominee for President here, just as you defended calls for a Republican Congress to oppose President Obama...

I have done neither. You are intentionally misrepresenting my positions.

[The Magistrate]

288. You Did Indeed Defend Calling For a Republican Congress, Sir, And For the Reason Stated

But do keep wriggling when pinned, by all means: it is entertaining, and it calls wider attention to your positions in support of Republican aims and candidates.

[slackmaster]

428. That's just nonsense. Your attempts to twist what I wrote into something else say something...

...about your character.

[The Magistrate]

436. My Pointing Out, Sir, the Plain Meaning Of your Comments In English, Is What You Complain Of

You have in this thread defended Riomney, arguing that his damning before a select group of donors should not have been made public.

You have in this thread stated that making these damning comments by Romney public is equivalent to the fraudulent concoctions of O'Keefe and his right-wing ilk.

You have elsewhere ( in the 'Meta' forum ) defended a troll who called for a Republican Congress, even after he was banned by the Administrators for doing precisely that.

In the course of this defense, you have yourself claimed President Obama has an etreme anti-gun agenda, which is a leading NRA line , widely circulated to whip up votes against President Obama, and a staple of Republican takers and right-wing agitators.

these are not distortions or twistings of your words, they are fair statements of what your words mean.

If you do not like have what you say highlighted, say something else.

[slackmaster]

437. Repeating bullshit doesn't make it true

ETA secretly recording a private conversation or other activity without permission and then publishing it without permission is a dirty trick no matter who does it or why.

I'm seeing a lot of rationalizations for bad behavior here. I am very disappointed in some people.

[The Magistrate]

440. Repeating Facts Drives Them Home, Sir, Hence My Habit of Repeatedly Stating Facts

These facts, for instance....

You have in this thread defended Romney, arguing that his damning comments before a select group of donors should not have been made public.

You have in this thread stated that making these damning comments by Romney public is equivalent to the fraudulent concoctions of O'Keefe and his right-wing ilk.

You have elsewhere ( in the 'Meta' forum ) defended a troll who called for a Republican Congress, even after he was banned by the Administrators for doing precisely that.

In the course of this defense, you have yourself claimed President Obama has an extreme anti-gun agenda, which is a leading NRA line , widely circulated to whip up votes against President Obama, and a staple of Republican takers and right-wing agitators.

These are not distortions or twistings of your words, they are fair statements of what your words mean.

[CreekDog]

303. wow you compared the 47% video to ACORN?

and here I thought you were at least attempting to disguise your conservatism.

[Zorra]

324. +1 Well said. Thank you.

[CreekDog]

331. except when did you ever post here a complaint about the ACORN video?

were you silent on ACORN when it came up and only choose to get upset about the videotaping in this case, when it would harm a conservative?

[Call Me Wesley]

351. And as always, to the point, Sir.

Hope all is well with you and yours!

[The Magistrate]

379. A Pleasure To see You, Sir

We are well as can be expected. A little more creaky, of course....

[backscatter712]

330. Fuck 'em - we're at war, and don't think for a second they don't do it to us.

Think of this as payback for ACORN.

Sorry it makes you squeamish. But if we don't do some nasty things, we will get steamrolled.

My advice, show no mercy.

[OldDem2012]

245. Neither is pretending Mormonism is a Christian religion, all for the sake of....

...being supported by the religious right and being elected to the highest office in the country.

Whoever made this video is to be commended for opening the eyes of hopefully millions of Americans.

[slackmaster]

263. How do you feel about the people who made embarassing videos of ACORN and Planned Parenthood?

Are they to be commended as well?

[obamanut2012]

270. Those videos were setups and selectively edited to make the truth a lie

And the lie the truth.

The Temple videos show the facts.

I have nothing against investigative videos if they are FACTUAL and not biased stings.

Apples and oranges.

[slackmaster]

279. My position is that it is morally wrong to take videos of people without their permission

I don't care what the script says.

Try thinking about it this way: How would you feel if someone took a video of your private activities without your permission, and published it on YouTube?

[CreekDog]

299. it's morally wrong that children live in poverty

but i don't see you posting against that.

[slackmaster]

426. Red Herring

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

[CreekDog]

429. you just got schooled by Magistrate and that's the best you can do?

[slackmaster]

431. I've been brow-beaten by The Magistrate, and all I learned was that The Magistrate behaves badly

Sometimes.

[CreekDog]

438. No,you never defended ACORN on that video but made it sound like you did to criticize this LDS video

hypocrisy is behaving badly --and that's YOU.

[slackmaster]

439. Nonsense. I denounced the behavior of the people who perpetrated the ACORN sting.

And I continue to denounce it.

ETA I believe I said it was morally wrong although probably not illegal.

[CreekDog]

441. no you didn't defend ACORN the way you're defending the LDS now

you're trying to pretend you did so that this behavior doesn't come off as searching for a reason to defend conservatives--but there it is.

[OldDem2012]

422. Sorry, but it's morally wrong to try to impose the beliefs of your cult on everyone else....

...it's the responsibility of every US citizen to expose that kind of crap whenever and wherever possible.

If the Mormons have nothing to hide, why do they conceal so much of what they believe?

[slackmaster]

427. That's another Red Herring

The video doesn't depict anyone trying to impose beliefs on anyone but themselves.

[OldDem2012]

453. If their stated belief is to overthrow the US Government then that would qualify...

...for imposing their beliefs on the the US if they're successful.

Romney is as close as they've ever gotten to doing that.

[Starry Messenger]

354. This.

[Marr]

284. But funding Prop 8 is.

I see nothing wrong with recording rituals in a church-- particularly one as publicly active as the Mormon church.

[slackmaster]

435. I didn't see anyone in that video funding Prop. 8 or engaging in any kind of political activity

[Tsiyu]

446. You can't see staphlyococcus either

but you better believe it's out there, and you ought to be thankful to those who know how to look for it.

[Blue_Tires]

290. EDIT: Wrong comparison

No laws being broken in the video

[Zorra]

317. Sorry. When you sponsor legislation that takes rights away from innocent folks,

or denies those folks equal rights, you make yourself fair game for everyone who struggles for equality and justice.

You do shit like this to innocent people, you totally earn, and deserve, to get your fascist butt righteously exposed & kicked.

[slackmaster]

434. The video doesn't depict people engaging in any kind of political activities

[Zorra]

464. The inference should be obvious even if you don't see anyone physically donating money

to the Proposition 8 campaign in the film trailer.

Or maybe you don't believe that sponsoring, funding, and advocating for Proposition 8 was a form of political activity?

I think it is.

"It's clear now that Romney was a major financial donor to Prop. 8,"

[Politicub]

394. Don't you think we have a right to know more about the GOP

Candidate?

There's a chance Romney will be the president.

This rituals would not have been otherwise seen.

[slackmaster]

433. I didn't see the GOP candidate in that video

I don't believe I learned anything about him by watching it.

I felt uncomfortable watching it because it was an intrusion on peoples' private activities.

[Politicub]

455. I felt like I learned something about mormonism in general. I believe Romney is a Mormon, is he not?

I haven't seen any footage of temple rituals, and I'm glad I had the opportunity. I don't think this video will change any votes, but I still stand by the fact that people need to know everything they can about a candidate.

[riderinthestorm]

238. Was I the ONLY one who heard "erotic priesthood" instead of whatever else they were saying?

Never did hear it clearly after the first time....

[highplainsdem]

241. It's "Aaronic priesthood" - but I also heard it wrong first, and would have been confused if I

hadn't already read about Mormonism.

[obamanut2012]

272. I knew it was Aaronic, but it totally does sound like erotic!

[libdem4life]

255. Walter Martin is the Christian's expert on Mormonism. You Tube has dozens of videos.

[Liberalynn]

267. The Pukes questioned President Kennedy's ability to keep his Catholicism out of his Presidency!

They also brought up the Rev Wright with President Obama! So why should Mitten's Momonism get a pass?

A person's relgious upbringing may or may not influence the way they look at life and make decisions. The "May" possibility in that equation, however, is what makes a candidates religion fair game to study in an election.

What I want to know is does Mittens think his first job is to uphold the BOOK OF MORMON, or the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES?

It is the same question I would want to know of a Protestant or a Catholic, what is your first priority defending the BIBLE or the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES?

I would want to know the same thing of any other candidate of any other religious affiliation as well.

Can they keep church and state seperate? If they can't then they have no business running for President. So religion is fair game for political discussion. JMHO.

[adamuu]

271. Romney has sworn to devote himself 100% to establish worldwide Mormon theocracy

His true motive for becoming president.

[obamanut2012]

274. Yup, exactly

[NoMoreWarNow]

285. I wouldn't be surprised, but do you have a reference for that?

thanks

[workinclasszero]

275. Attention Christian Americans..

This video shows what your leaders like Billy and Franklin Graham, are supporting for president. Yup good old Billy scrubbed all references to Mormonism as a cult off his website after praying with Bishop Romney. Guess old Billy believes in the White Horse prophesy, eh?


2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[redqueen]

281. Almost forgot to share this.

K&R

[NoMoreWarNow]

283. some great sites on Mormonism

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.htm

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/search/label/Book%20of%20Mormon

[_ed_]

289. LD$: The Scientology of the 19th Century

Mormons never want to talk about the fact that Joey Smith was a convicted fraud in NY state before he invented his fake religion.

How about the fact that Mormonism was officially racist until 1978. Not 1878.... 1978.

Anyone who associates with this racist, homophobic religion should be ashamed of him or herself. And that includes Harry Reid.

[highplainsdem]

292. More than 400,000 views on YouTube so far.

[aletier_v]

295. freepers hate muslim for "attacking our way of life"

but are stuck supporting a candidate whose religion swore an oath against the US govt. The irony is rich.

[Safetykitten]

297. If you think this is nutty, try a full blown Methodist service. It's wild!

[newspeak]

300. okay, i have some family members who are mormon

they seem reasonable; however, i really don't know how far they'd go in obedience to the church. the closer you are to SLC, the more the church dictates your life. i lived in utah for over eight years and the church does play a strong role in utah governance.

what i have read (because hubby and I wanted to understand the church) is that smith's family may have been boondogglers. he was married to emma hale who had numerous miscarriages (maybe that's why he came up with the polygamy thing). even though they come off as victims, the church has a lot of blood on it's hands (of course, so does the catholic church), including my cousin's great grandfather who was murdered by mormons. in the early days, no one was to question church doctrine, by doing so, you could find yourself in a hole outside of SLC.

i hadn't heard of the shocking oath against the US; however, i have heard that gentiles may be shorn like sheep, lied to or whatever because they are not worthy and well, are gentiles. even members' of the church must be deemed worthy; of course, one wonders who has the illustrious decision to decide that.

i also didn't realize that smith tweaked the OT. i learned that recently while debating someone of the mormon persuasion. in smith's version, lot didn't offer his daughters to the multitude, didn't bother to find the other variations of the OT

i have no problem with their polytheistic tendencies; however, I do have a problem of a church swearing an oath against the government, wanting to change the government to their ideological perceptions and not respecting ALL citizens and their beliefs.

[CJCRANE]

307. The recorded voice reminds me of the Dharma Initiative videos on "Lost". nt

[obamanut2012]

315. ME TOO!!!

[MrScorpio]

323. I don't really have anything to say

Other than I'm glad that I'm now a part of this epic thread

[condoleeza]

329. Holy shit, I was already depressed

WTF is the matter with humans? If Romney gets elected, I'm going to have a real struggle trying to find a reason to live anymore.

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

333. Trying to watch the video here it played sound, but no moving pictures,

I could move to cursor to places that had loaded and see a still picture. I went to reddit to watch, but found the "Blue screen, Reddit is down, Sorry" note. Has the mormon church shut them off???

[Coyotl]

338. you have low bandwidth then

[Scootaloo]

337. Meh, religious hooey is religious hooey

Doesn't matter of it's whacking your head on a wall, sacrificing a squash, repeatedly dunking children, or pretending crackers are made of meat, it's all weird shit.

But most religions at least have the taste, the sense of style, to not use a fucking tape deck for their wacky hijinks. That's just tacky.

[FloridaJudy]

339. Am I the only one who's weirded out

By how childish this all seems? Secret names! Magic veils (that look like the plastic sheeting they use around construction sites)! Holy hidden rooms! Unspeakable oaths!

It's something a not-overly-bright middle schooler would come up with for his Sekrit Club for Boys if he were given a lot of money and power. That supposed adults take this shit seriously is frightening.

I'd love to run away from home to become the school nurse at Hogwarts, but that's a more evolved fantasy than this. And I have more sense than to dedicate the rest of my life - not to mention 10% of my money - to that.

[CreekDog]

340. then you'll enjoy the South Park espisode about it

about the Mormons.

[KamaAina]

359. Dum dum dum dum dum!

"Gee, that sounds kind of..." Dum dum dum dum dum!

[Zorra]

364. yeh, it's kind of like this ~

Cap'n Crunch Official Membership Kit

Description: Mail away kit consisting of a certificate, membership card, badges, transfers, special message, decoder wheel, how to make swords & hats, and a poster of "Our Hero".

[jsr]

341. You get it right or you go to hell:

[DollarBillHines]

350. Now that is just creepy.

I think I'll skip lunch and have a few fingers...

of Bourbon.

[catbyte]

348. What's with all the cows?

[waddirum]

456. You're right

Isn't there a prohibition against graven images, specifically those involving calves.

[joy2u2]

349. Wannabe King and Queen, ugh

So that's where Mutt & Ann get the King & Queen stance.. it's mentioned in their holy (wholly) video.. very scary stuff. My bigger concern is that this huge group of better-than-thous will have their hands in Romney's pockets if he accidentally got elected into the White House. Between the Mormons and the gang(sters) from Vegas.. there is no telling what they will force Muttons to do.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

352. gotta watch this later! seems perfect for Halloween! n/t

[valerief]

353. Yeah, but you have to admit the Annual Magic Undie Pageant is jim-dandy! nt

[KamaAina]

357. What's Mitt's new name?

I vote for "Money Boo Boo".

[Bluenorthwest]

371. Please! That's Bishop Money Boo Boo....

nt

[DFW]

358. Calling Tom Lehrer!

This makes "The Vatican Rag" seem like a boring documentary.

[Rambis]

360. "Reformed Egyptian" Just what is that?

[obamanut2012]

367. A made up, non existent language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian

[McCamy Taylor]

362. Freaky. You gotta ask "What ae they trying to hide?"

[Bigleaf]

365. The following is my favorite Mormon video:

Last edited Mon Oct 22, 2012, 05:38 PM - Edit history (1)

I hate, let me repeat that, HATE people coming to my door peddling religion. Believe it or not, in order to have these Mormons walk right by your home, you have to write a letter to the bishop. You telling them verbally not to come back is not enough. No, they put the onus on you to write a letter. Un-fucking-believable.

[lindysalsagal]

369. I need to go watch 250 episodes of the muppet show to get this creepy feeling

out of me so I can sleep tonight.

The creepy hand sticking through the veil. Are ya kidding me? My friends and I thought up strange stuff like this when we were 6 or 7, and it was forgotten the next day.

What the hell????

[SleeplessinSoCal]

370. Ann says being missionaries made men of her boys. Basically equating their mission with our troops.

We should be apologizing to France and every other nation who has to suffer our made in the USA "Christian" religion. Jesus has nothing remotely to do with this stuff. They used him as a front for wackiness and continue to foist it on the world.

[Skittles]

372. there was never any question her sons would return from their "mssions"

honestly, that gal is insufferable

[classykaren]

376. Who ever filmed this has a lot of guts

I can't believe it they actually take a oath for the downfall of the United States Of America?????? To avenge the death of Smith? He can not be President of the United States then in any way. This need to go viral. I bet Billy Graham never saw this OMG

[adirondacker]

384. I'm not sure why this song came to mind.

Tony Orlando & Dawn KNOCK THREE TIMES

I'm hoping people knock twice on the pipes:/

[alessiana]

386. replying so i can find it n/t

N/T

[The Old Creak]

387. Any astronomers out there?

Where, exactly is Kolob, other than in the mind of these racist cultists?

[IDoMath]

397. Beats me. I never heard of it.

BUt then, we only started actually identifying planets in the last decade or so, so we might have the wrong names.

[obamanut2012]

415. A really long way from Caprica

And, I'm a bit gobsmacked that your post appears to be serious.

[GoneOffShore]

388. Theocrats all of them. n/t

[Politicub]

391. Just wow. I've always been interested in what goes on in Mormon temples

Amazing video. I've never seen anything like it.

The American people have a right to know what goes on with the GOP candidate being a Mormon.

Every religion has its peculiarities - but this takes the cake.

I wonder if the baptists will incorporate these practices now?

[snagglepuss]

403. I too am amazed,absolutely shocked. A poster below states that only

elite LDS members are know about these secret rites which means Rmoney and princess Ann engage in these creepy secret rituals.

This needs to go viral.

[IDoMath]

402. Come on people! Grow Up!

So they go through some rituals, big deal. It's no worse than rituals I've seen at Scottish Rite temples, wiccan coven rituals, druidic rituals, etc. Gardnerians still take vows of secrecy. So do masons, fraternities, sororities and probably Elks, Moose and Possum Lodge.

So they like a little drama and ritual. To see people on hear crying "oh scary scary" is ever bit as bad as watching freeper ilk tell lies about muslims and jews.

Grow up.

[wtmusic]

404. Drama isn't typically a good character trait for whoever has their finger on the button. nt

[IDoMath]

405. Well, in that case, religious people should all be excluded from public office </sarcasm> n/t

[wtmusic]

408. Just those who reject mainstream scientific thought

To believe in an amorphous creator is one thing.

People who get bedside visits from angels belong in the looney bin.

[IDoMath]

452. I was with you until the looney bin part

It is possible in the amazingly creative and imaginative human mind to be able to process complex rational thought alongside personal delusion.

Whether or not that personal delusion disqualifies a person from service has to be evaluated on an individual basis.

[OldDem2012]

425. Stick to math because I bet you're better at that than you are at....

...trolling.

[Taverner]

445. Agreed. Of course these ceremonies are pretty damn close to the Masonic Degree Rituals

Right down to the punishments

[IDoMath]

451. Those elements can be found throughout modern western religions & societies

..those elements go back to ancient Egypt and before. They got "formalized" by various real and mythical characters (Hermes Trismegistus, eg.). Then they were forgotten, rediscovered, revived, remixed and recycled. You can find hermetic symbols in catholic churches and freemasonry, khaballa in wicca, etc. etc.

People like a little mystery in their lives. Can you blame them?

[snagglepuss]

447. Any and every Christian would regard the beliefs stated in the video as being outright heresy.

[IDoMath]

450. So what?

So would jews & muslims. And then they'd all turn around and accuse each other of heresy.

If we replaced the comments here with same comments directed at jews, muslims, bhuddists, wiccans, hindus, sikhs etc, there would be mass outrage. But it seems to me that years of repressed bigotry masquerading as political correctness have found an "acceptable" outlet.

I don't care what christians think. That's their business.

If you think mormon beliefs are heresy, that's your choice. But don't denigrate their beliefs as just because they are different than your own.

[snagglepuss]

454. Why should I not denigrate beliefs I find contemptible?

[IDoMath]

458. Because the DU terms of Service say not to?

Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic.

May I take your argument to mean that I can denigrate christianity if I find it contemptible?

I am not going to do that because I can not prove that christianity is wrong any more than it can be proven right. It is a matter of FAITH. It doesn't need to be proven. When it manifests in public policy, I will deal with it as a matter of public policy but when it is merely the faith of an individual I will leave it alone. "By their fruits ye shall know them" I believe is how the quote goes.

Evil comes in many forms. So does righteousness. I'm not really fit to judge another person's faith. No one is.

[snagglepuss]

461. Bigotry my ass. Criticizing and/or holding an idea in contempt is not bigotry. One can only be

bigoted against people not ideas or beliefs. Furthermore the definition of denigrate is to "unfairly criticize". There is nothing unfair about criticizing beliefs and practices that are contemptible.

[IDoMath]

463. That's nice to know...

Since all the Abrahamic religions are delusional and based on allowing a few to oppress many.

I wonder how long it will take this post to be blocked because the target is christianity instead of mormonism.

[Zorra]

449. LOL. Grow up? 48 posts? Well, I declare! Bless your lil ol' heart!

Thanks so much for your concern!.

"To see people on hear crying "oh scary scary" is ever bit as bad as watching freeper ilk tell lies about muslims and jews."

That doesn't add up. DoTheMath! There's a big difference - we're not telling lies.

"If the Republicans will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
Adlai Stevenson

[krawhitham]

406. K&R

[gulliver]

407. Romney avoided Vietnam to steer souls away from other Christian religions and into this?

[Utah_liberal]

419. Nearly a half million views. send this guy $ to advertise.

He wants to advertise this video. If we could get more evangelicals and Catholics to see this, it could make a difference!

[Shankapotomus]

432. Carousel

[myrna minx]

442. I think many evangelicals would find this shocking. K&R

[Taverner]

443. All of it ripped off from the Masonic Degree Rituals

Just a different uniform

[Jennicut]

459. Very cult-like.

I have read some scary stories about how ex members are treated after they leave the Mormon church.

[Erose999]

460. The next time Mormons knock on my door I will ask "What is wanted?" and see how they react.

[backscatter712]

462. The core problem I have with Mormonism is that it demands disrespect for non-Mormons.

Virtually all of the big religions have this problem - Christians bashing non-Christians, Muslims bashing non-Muslims, but Mormonism takes disrespect of non-members to an unusually high level.

Look at them. Look at the video.

Baptism of the dead. Translation "Oh, the poor dead guy's not a Mormon? We'd better wave a dead chicken and make him a Mormon!"

The secret handshakes. Translation: "Are you one of us? Show the secret handshake! You'd better be one of us, otherwise, you're one of Them. If you're not with us, you're against us!"

Also look at the frantic door-to-door proselytization, the zillions of silly little rules Mormons are expected to follow, the culture of ostracizing people who aren't conforming.

The entire Mormon religion has at its core the assertion that you MUST be Mormon, otherwise, you're a bad person, and to be treated as an enemy. Don't get me started about what they think about atheists like me.

Like I said, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and virtually every other religion in the world has done this (especially certain subgroups in these religions - Wahhabi Muslims and Dominionist Christians, for example, go nuts on disrespecting people outside of their flavor of religion). But Mormonism keeps this concept at its core, and demands its followers disrespect other religions.

That's why Mormonism disturbs me.