Secret Rituals - We haz them.

[MineralMan]

The videos of LDS Temple rituals today are interesting, but hardly unique. Rituals of one sort or another are part of most religions, and many other human organizations. Remember the Skull and Bones controversy around Shrub? What about the Masonic rituals. We've had plenty of Presidents who were Masons. Have you ever been in a Fraternity or a fraternal order of any kind? Then you're familiar with secret rituals.

Special handshakes to identify each other as "brothers," mystical curtains and coded communications, secret names, and all that foofuraw is pretty much standard for a large group of organizations, both secular and religious.

What does it mean? Not much, apparently, in real life.

We humans seem drawn to rituals. It's part of being part of some "special" society of humans. Most have similar characteristics, too, whether they are secular or religious. Knock three times, say the secret words, hold your hand a certain way when you shake hands, and you're part of the in-crowd.

Are they sinister? Yeah, sometimes they are. Are they taken seriously? Yeah, sometimes they are, at least by some people.

But one thing's for sure, America is full of organizations and religious with all sorts of rituals. We haz them here. I'd be surprised if less than about 75% of our elected officials have been part of some organization that includes secret rituals of some sort or another.

Bottom line: What do the candidates believe about what should be done? That's the question we need to answer, not whether they've ever participated in some ritual or another. Seriously.

[cthulu2016]

1. Full examination of people you hand the nuclear launch codes is normal prudence

I have never been troubled by the JFK Catholic controversy, and I was raised Catholic.

If people running for president are going to belong to religions or secret societies then it is all on the table.

I find the whole idea of religion being beyond scrutiny in deciding whether to personally empower someone to end civilization makes no rational sense.

And voters are not required to set aside concerns about a potential president being heavily into weird shit, whether fair or unfair rational or not rational.

To equate religion to a candidate's favorite sex position (as many do in saying religion is none of our business) does religion a grave disservice.

[MineralMan]

3. Oh, it's good to know where people are coming from.

No question about it. I don't trust Romney with the launch codes. I'm voting for Obama. I didn't trust Shrub with the launch codes. I didn't vote for him, either. He was part of the Skull and Bones thing, and their rituals are at least as weird as the Mormon ones. Countless books have been written about the Masonic rituals, to the point that they're hardly a secret at all any more. And yet, we elect Masons to office all the time.

It's not Romney's membership in the LDS church that worries me, nor his temple recommend. He's a moron and has weird ideas about the economy, foreign policy, and much more. That's what worries me, and why I'm trying to get President Obama reelected.

[brewens]

2. As an ex/reformed member of The Eagles I can now reveal the secret handshake and password.

Okay so it's not exactly a handshake, it's more like raising a glass! An the password isn't really a password, it's the smell of alcohol on your breath! The combination of those two doesn't necessarily identify an Eagle, but someone claiming to be and Eagle not exhibiting one of those, is an impostor! LOL

[MineralMan]

4. Yup. I wasn't a Boy Scout, either, so I don't know their handshake.

I can't pass as a Boy Scout. I used to be the President of a large PC user's group. For 12 years. We had our meetings in an Oddfellows hall that we rented. There were a bunch of thrones in there. What did they do at their meetings? Rituals. Initiation rituals. Rituals to advance in degree. Rituals of all kinds. It make the guys feel, you know, part of the group. Lots of mysticism in those rituals, too, I'm betting, just as in the Masonic lodges.

We like our rituals. We haz 'em.

[reformist2]

5. I'm not drawn to secret rituals.

[MineralMan]

6. Nor am I. I don't like them, and find such

groups to be a complete waste of time. Other people feel differently, for one reason or another. If you picked up all the politicians in DC by their feet and shook them hard, little fraternal order pins would litter the ground. Politicians seem to be prone to that sort of thing, and such organizations are training grounds for people who want to go into political life. Not too many Senators and Congress members who weren't part of a fraternity, a fraternal order, or some such thing. It comes with the territory, I think.

[Barack_America]

7. Bottom line, Mormonism is FAR from Christianity, both in beliefs and rituals.

Which differs from how Mitt is presenting his religion to the public.

[brewens]

8. I know a few Mormons and have done blood drives at their churches. I kind of wonder if for

many of them, especially far away from Utah, are their church services mostly like any Christian services? Maybe they deal with mostly New Testament stuff and not dwell on The Book Of Mormon so much. At least not the bizarre parts.

Doing the blood drives, talking to the members and even bishops, it pretty much seems like any other church to me.

[Barack_America]

11. Have you seen the "secret" video?

This is the Mormonism of Mitt Romney.

If he hadn't touted "putting God back in the government", I wouldn't care less about his religion. But since he did, I do.

[brewens]

18. Yeah. Romney is high enough up that I'd say he's right in the middle

of all the bizarre stuff. I was just commenting that a lot of the kids I see probably are just like any other church kids.

[MineralMan]

12. Bottom line: I'm an atheist.

All religions seem ridiculous to me, frankly, so whether the President is a Christian or anything else is irrelevant. I suppose I'd prefer a Buddhist President, since Buddhism doesn't really have deities, per se.

[riderinthestorm]

9. But these particular rituals reinforce some nasty concepts - like gender inequality as one example

Clearly Mitt and his family deeply believe in this religion. So scrutinizing their most profound beliefs and yes, their rituals, can give some insight into who they really and how they may govern. For example with gender inequality, its obvious Mitt Rmoney doesn't really practice it - his term as governor and his stewardship of Bain reflects that.

Now we see temple rituals that reinforce that concept.

2+2 =4 and in this case, some things about Mitt and gender equality become MUCH clearer.

[MineralMan]

14. Yes, and the Roman Catholic Church also doesn't support gender equality, including

reproductive choice and other things. Do I then not support Biden? What I do is listen to what the candidates say. Romney's record and statements say that he doesn't support equality for women. It doesn't support equality for LGBT Americans, either. Why would I look at his religion? He's right out in the open with it. I'm an atheist, so religion is all hooey to me, anyhow, but every candidate professes to have religion.

Listen to what they say and how they have acted in their record. That's all I need to know that I'm voting for Obama.

[Liberalynn]

21. Biden isn't attempting to insert his religion into government policy

That is why Biden's religious beliefs don't concern me, but Mitten's do.

Not all but a good perportion of the RePUKE party including Mitt Romeny have for all intents stated they are unwilling to seperate church and state when writing public policy. One need look no further than at their stance on DOMA. Its been declared unconstitutional by severeal federal courts but they keep pushing for it because its politically poular among the religious right and their own personal religious belief systems.

I am not saying a Mormon, or a Catholic, or a Jew, or a Buddahist, or a person of whatever religion shouldn't be allowed to hold public office. However, if they WILLFULLY, CONSISTENTLY, AND DISDAINFULLY continue to violate the Constitution on the seperation of church and state issue then they leave themselves open to be questioned on their religion, called to the carpet, and hopefully voted out of office on that violation. That's why Mitten's Mormonism then becomes fair game.

[MineralMan]

24. Biden's a Democrat. I vote for Democrats.

Romney's a Republican. I don't vote for Republicans.

Religion doesn't play a role in my decision. Ever. If it did, I couldn't vote at all.

If you want Romney's religion to be a factor, then be my guest. My decision not to vote for him is based on his political positions, not his religion.

[Liberalynn]

38. I vote for Democrats too

and though it is not the only reason one of the main reasons is because Democrats make decisons based on the Constitution and have shown time and time again that they are more than capable of seperating church and state.

The PUKES have shown themselves unwilling and virtually incapable of doing the same.
It clearly effects not only their writing of their social policy but their economic and foreign policy decisions as well. That's why I cannot dismiss their religons as a valid issue to be concerned about in this or any election year.

If they didn't determine their stands on issues and base many of their policies on their religion I'd give them a pass and like you be unconcerned about their religon. The thing is they don't seperate their religion from their politics so when considering them as a potential office holder, their religion in my opinion becomes a valid political issue.


But the only important thing is to vote Democrat. We all win that way.

[riderinthestorm]

42. Biden has unequivocally stated he firmly believes in the seperation of church and state

His words, deeds and actions clearly indicate that over several decades.

Rmoney (and Ryan for that matter) are a 180 degree difference than Biden. Its way beyond Rethug/Dem preferences when we get into a constitutional issue.

Ryan's positions on abortion for example, stem directly from trying to inject his Catholic church dogma into politics. He's been consistent now for a couple of decades that he does not respect that line.

Rmoney's church teaches that women are subservient. This video appears to support that. Rmoney's tenure as governor and CEO at Bain indicate he does not value women as equals. That's a religious belief interfering in the political process.

Religion isn't a factor for me (or clearly for you) but it is for a hell of a lot of people. I'm not going to put my head in the sand and minimize this.

This video is out there. Its going viral. I think we ignore it at our peril. It needs discussion and, if there's value for our side, it needs using against them.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

10. I don''t see the rituals as a big deal.

Are they odd? Sure, but that's not what's seems to be the real core of the issue.

The real issue, as I see it, is how far apart they are from the strident beliefs of Evangelicals. Who are now pretending they've not been against Mormons being part of their brand of Christianity since the inception of the faith.


This article touches on some of the real differences. The core beliefs between the two brands of religion which are in opposition to each other.

On the most fundamental issue, traditional Christians believe in the Trinity: that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all rolled into one.

Mormons reject this as a non-biblical creed that emerged in the fourth and fifth centuries. They believe that God the Father and Jesus are separate physical beings, and that God has a wife whom they call Heavenly Mother.

It is not only evangelical Christians who object to these ideas.

“That’s just not Christian,” said the Rev. Serene Jones, president of Union Theological Seminary, a liberal Protestant seminary in New York City. “God and Jesus are not separate physical beings. That would be anathema. At the end of the day, all the other stuff doesn’t matter except the divinity of Jesus.”

The Mormon Church says that in the early 1800s, its first prophet, Joseph Smith, had revelations that restored Christianity to its true path, a course correction necessary because previous Christian churches had corrupted the faith. Smith bequeathed to his church volumes of revelations contained in scripture used only by Mormons: “The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ,” “The Doctrine and Covenants” and “Pearl of Great Price.”

Traditional Christians do not recognize any of those as Scripture.

Another big sticking point concerns the afterlife. Early Mormon apostles gave talks asserting that human beings would become like gods and inherit their own planets — language now regularly held up to ridicule by critics of Mormonism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/15/us/politics/evangelical-christians-unease-with-romney-is-theological.html?_r=0

The question is how can the leaders of the Evangelicals suddenly turn against their core beliefs? Do their followers even realize how far apart Mormonism is from their brand of religion? I'm willing to bet many of them don't. They've been following the dogma as told to them by their church leaders without questioning it for far too long. All their heads are filled with now is that the president is to be voted against. Yet in their doing so they're over looking what they're voting for.

[MineralMan]

13. Well, for me, it's all poppycock and balderdash anyhow.

So, that's not an issue.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

15. I'm also an athiest.

Yet I can see how religion can, and does, influences American politics.

That there's a block of voting Evangelicals being snowed by their church leaders to vote against the president, no matter what they're voting for, matters to me. I find this entire situation is quite disturbing.

[MineralMan]

19. With the exception, perhaps, of Franklin Pierce, all of

our Presidents have expressed some form of religious belief. The US is predominantly a Christian-populated country, of one sort or another. I simply can't base my decision on religion when it comes to elections. I'd have nobody to vote for.

Now, I expect that many elected officials, including US Presidents, are really not religious at all, but they could not get elected without some reference to religious beliefs. It's just not a factor for me.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

40. It's obvious we're talking past each other.

I'm not speaking of Romney's Mormonism as a religious issue to me, personally, but speaking of how the Evangelicals are voting for something which goes against their core beliefs, simply to be voting against the president.

[MineralMan]

41. While some will do that, there will be others who simply will not go to the polls

at all. If their downticket races are locks, I expect many teabaggers and fundamentalist Christians to skip voting this year. In fact, I expect Republican turnout to be less than expected, nationwide, because of that very factor. However, people who decided to do that have already decided that, and more revelations will not change their mind. Similarly, I don't believe more will be influenced to vote or not to vote by revelations like this one.

Romney's Mormon beliefs have already convinced some on the far or Christian Right that a vote for him is the wrong vote. That decision was made long ago.

What I'm saying in this thread is that this kind of issue is not going to play into the election at this point in any significant way. That's my opinion.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

43. Most are going to the polls and voting against the president.

Some are not voting against their core beliefs, but the number is far lower than I originally expected.

The Sanatorium supporters in the primary are now backing Romney by a large majority. Of course that's just the ones I know. However, there's polling and real evidence showing Romney has more Evangelical support than McCain did in 2004.

A recent Pew Research poll showed that 74 percent of white evangelicals support Romney, a percentage point higher than Sen. John McCain when he was the Republican nominee.

From the same article:

The Romney-Ryan ticket is the first Republican presidential campaign in history without a Protestant candidate, but this hasn't deterred evangelicals from launching massive get-out-the-vote and registration efforts to help Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan win the White House.

Faith and Freedom Coalition founder Ralph Reed, who has been involved in pushing evangelicals to the polls since 1988, has launched what he described as the "largest voter registration, voter mobilization and get-out-the-vote effort ever targeted at evangelical voters," specifically those who would be new additions to the voter rolls.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2012/10/17/romney-evangelicals-vote/1637081/

Then there's this:

Influential pastor Billy Graham is signaling to evangelical Christians that they shouldn't hesitate to vote for Mitt Romney because of his Mormon religion, further cementing Romney's strong standing with the key Republican voting bloc.

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association this week removed Mormonism from its list of religious cults, the Charlotte Observer reports. Mormons consider themselves Christians, though not all of their beliefs align with mainstream Christian doctrine.

The association dropped the label after Romney visited Graham and his son Franklin Graham, who now runs the organization, last week. In his six decades of ministry, Billy Graham has served as a spiritual adviser to several presidents, though he's never formally endorsed a presidential candidate.

Ken Barun, chief of staff for the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, told the Observer in a statement, "We removed the (cult) information from the website because we do not wish to participate in a theological debate about something that has become politicized during this campaign."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57535071/billy-grahams-organization-removes-mormonism-from-its-list-of-cults/

And this:

Billy Graham buys election ads after Romney meeting

By Eric Marrapodi CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Washington (CNN) - The most famous and revered pastor in America, Billy Graham, is calling on voters to cast a ballot for their faith in full-page ads in the Wall Street Journal, USA Today and other newspapers.

Graham's picture appears prominently in the ads, next to copy that reads, "As I approach my 94th birthday, I realize this election could be my last."

It continues, "I believe it is vitally important that we cast our ballots for candidates who base their decisions on biblical principles and support the nation of Israel. I urge you to vote for those who protect the sanctity of life and support the biblical definition of marriage between a man and a woman. Vote for biblical values this November 6, and pray with me that America will remain one nation under God."

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/18/billy-graham-buys-election-ads-after-romney-meeting/

And this:

TX church says 'vote for the Mormon, not the Muslim!'

LEAKEY, TX -

A small-town Texas church is causing a big-time controversy by putting up a sign that says: "Vote for the Mormon, not the Muslim! The capitalist, not the communist!"

"I can see why there's some controversy because some people think that the separation of church and state, maybe they shouldn't get involved in it," said a Leakey resident. "But I don't see no problem with them trying to send a message and wake some people up."

While many of these Evangelicals were told Mormons weren't Christians 'like them' in the past, which technically would be true due to the beliefs of Evangelicals. For many they don't really know why they weren't. It wasn't important to them in the grand scheme of their eternal salvation. The pastor said it, they knew they weren't supposed to believe what the Mormon missionaries said when they came to their door, so that's all that mattered. Now they're being told to support Romney rather than the president, since he's fundamentally Christian like them. Except he's not. Not according to several of the core tenets of their brand of religion. Yet these church leaders are over looking that to support Romney. Simply because he's not Obama.

There are quite a few Evangelicals out there who would not vote for Romney if they knew the depth of the differences between their two brands of religion. Which sadly, they don't.

[Liberalynn]

16. If the Question could be asked of President Kennedy in the 1960's

whether he could keep his Catholicism separate from his decision making process then Mitten's Mormonism shouldn't be hands off either.

If he is going to make policy decisions for this country I think it is fair to ask him whether he will make those decisions based on the laws of the United States or the laws of the Book of Mormon.

Right Wing Nut Cases are spouting Theology all the time in their speeches, we have seen them actually write or attempt to write their Theology into law,(DOMA ring any bells?) they barely manage to hide their desire to turn the U.S. into a Theocracy, so I consider their religious leanings an important thing to expose and debate.

[Berlum]

17. Ahh ha - the anticipated Ritual Blowoff of Willard's sTraNge MOrMOn ritual thinGy

[L0oniX]

20. So drinking pigs blood is ok for anyone running for POTUS ....mmmm ok.

Where do you draw the line on this shit? ...and who decides where that line is? Well ...at least we know that believing in UFO's is not acceptable for those who run for POTUS ...just ask Kucinich.

[MineralMan]

22. What religion requires drinking of pig blood?

I don't know of one. I do enjoy blood sausage, though, in any of its many forms. Does that count?

Listen to what Romney says. If you do, you won't vote for him. No religion is required.

[L0oniX]

28. You missed the idea.

[ProSense]

29. You're trying to trivialize a real concern

I don't know of one. I do enjoy blood sausage, though, in any of its many forms. Does that count?

Listen to what Romney says. If you do, you won't vote for him. No religion is required.

Do you pray to "blood sausage"?

Romney is the one injecting religion into the debate.

[MineralMan]

32. My question was not answered. What religion incorporates

drinking pig's blood into its rituals? You're the one who brought that up.

As for injecting Religion, President Obama also mentions religion frequently, and calls on his deity to "Bless America," at every public appearance. Religion is always mentioned at election time, because so many voters have religious beliefs of one sort or another. I just let that stuff blow by me, and listen to what they are saying about real life issues. Religion is not such an issue for me.

[ProSense]

33. I didn't make the point, but

that has nothing to do with my point. Religious beliefs are not the same as secret handshakes among boy scouts.

[ProSense]

36. Also, you

previously said: "Listen to what Romney says. If you do, you won't vote for him. No religion is required."

Now you say:

As for injecting Religion, President Obama also mentions religion frequently, and calls on his deity to "Bless America," at every public appearance. Religion is always mentioned at election time, because so many voters have religious beliefs of one sort or another. I just let that stuff blow by me, and listen to what they are saying about real life issues. Religion is not such an issue for me.

You're drawing an equivalency where before you tried to dismiss the impact of religion.

Your reaction is to dismiss, that doesn't mean people shouldn't take it into account, especially for a candidate like Mitt, who is trying to erase the separation between church and state.

[MineralMan]

35. No, I'm not. Harry Reid is also a Mormon.

How has that influenced him with regard to public policy? Listen to what they say about public policy. You'll find the candidate to vote for right there.

[ProSense]

37. So?

There are Catholics who don't share the same extremism as Bishop Dolan.

Again, you're trivializing the differences.

[ProSense]

23. Wait,

"The videos of LDS Temple rituals today are interesting, but hardly unique. Rituals of one sort or another are part of most religions, and many other human organizations. Remember the Skull and Bones controversy around Shrub? What about the Masonic rituals. We've had plenty of Presidents who were Masons. Have you ever been in a Fraternity or a fraternal order of any kind? Then you're familiar with secret rituals. "

...this is an apples to oranges comparison. Those aren't religions. Mormonism is.

[MineralMan]

27. That is true. But, the thing being discussed is the release of those videos

of LDS Temple rituals. They're quite similar in form to the other rituals I mentioned. Further, some of the "secular" organizations with similar rituals also aspire to political power, particularly the Skull and Bones bunch. Are they really secular organizations? I don't think so. Most incorporate some religious belief into their membership requirements.

[ProSense]

31. But the others are not religious, and

do not impact public policy.

A candidate who was a boy scout isn't going to use that experience to influence his religious beliefs and his public policy.

[OldDem2012]

25. Rituals mean nothing until the cult or religion is in a position to do something about them....

....such as the professed desire in the video of replacing the US "civil government with a religious government administered by Mormons".

When a member of a cult or religion is in a position to potentially accomplish the stated desire noted above, that makes that makes me nervous. In his position as Bishop in the Mormon organization, Romney presided over and participated in the the rituals and beliefs seen in the video.

99.99% of all other rituals performed in all other cults and religions in the US don't meet the criteria noted above, and that also makes me VERY nervous.

[MineralMan]

34. Romney should make everyone nervous.

And that's the truth.

[Skidmore]

26. As a woman, I am concerned about the implications of Romney's

belief system on the treatment of women in this nation. Since he has linked himself to the fundamentalists of the Protestant world and has also embraced undying agenda of Catholicism to put women in their place, I see him as a threat.

[MineralMan]

30. I see Romney as a threat in very many ways.

Civil rights and equality are two of those areas. There are others, too. I have many reasons why I would never vote for him or any other Republican, for that matter.

[wtmusic]

39. Can we draw the line at "participating in a secret ritual older than the age of 14"? nt