Does the truth even fucking matter any more.

[wtmusic]

We bang, bang, bang our heads against the wall. We factcheck, compile a litany of reasons why a Romney presidency will be disastrous. We point out he's changed his position 180º on any number of issues, he can't provide simple numbers to support one of his biggest campaign promises, refuses to provide tax returns to show he's been honest "when no one is looking". We know our shit, we're armed to the teeth.

This weekend I got a chance to use it when I was able to engage a Romney supporter in polite discussion. I was non-confrontational, but insistent. It ended thusly:

"Well you can make all those points, but then you hear someone else come up with all the reasons why that's not so after all. I just think Romney will be better for the economy."

[northoftheborder]

1. Lying has lost it's place in the list of evils. Lyin' seems as easy as sighing to too many.

[polichick]

2. History will tell the story of a great nation that self-destructed...

...because of the intellectual laziness of its citizens. What a tale that will be!

[Evergreen Emerald]

19. Yes. I agree. n/t

[Rambis]

3. Better for the economy?

It is like Dems are weak on defence where do these myths come from? Harvesting companies, raiding pensions and shipping jobs overseas is great for the economy? It is good for the MittWitt economy but not the rest of us.

[AndyTiedye]

12. The Tee Vee Tells Them These Things and they Believe It

[Amonester]

32. Oh, it *would* be good for the 0.0001% economy.

We know that. They don't, or they simply *choose* to ignore that again and again just because they hate losing.

They just can't fathom the idea of being losers.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Yes, the truth matters. But

mostly only to Democrats. That's why 90% of scientists are with us, and very few snake-handlers and teabaggers are.

The psychology of political ideology is a fascinating study.

[wtmusic]

8. After the death of bin Laden people were joking about calling off the election

No one could challenge Obama. What's happened since then? Absolutely nothing of substance.

They've picked an idiot out of a cast of idiots and turned him into a presidential contender.

[Politicalboi]

5. Rmoney is going to share

His money with us. Don't you understand? If Rmoney wins, we will ALL be rich.

[IDemo]

6. I think a study from earlier this year indicated that in many cases no, it doesn't matter

Many choose to align themselves with political ideologies and candidates regardless of facts. All part of identifying with a group.

edit - If this is the study I'm thinking of, it more specifically says that facts don't matter to conservatives, not the population at large:

http://worldmeets.us/news0000021.shtml
Whenever climate change is on the agenda ... or whenever conservative politicians talk about it, all it takes is a look at the forums. It doesn’t matter how many facts are enumerated, the contradiction remains - and these are conclusions that education won't alter. Quite the contrary.

This was the result of a study out of Yale University. Chief investigator Dan Kahan interviewed some 1,540 randomly selected U.S. citizens. The amazing result is that facts on specific scientific topics play no role when it comes to the more conservative segments of American society.

Those who show such resistance to the facts, interestingly enough, are not with low educational and social status. No - the more educated a person is, the stronger and more irrational is their rejection of scientifically-proven and peer-reviewed facts (conspiracy theories involving thousands of scientists are frequently mentioned). One cheerleader of the trend is ultra-conservative presidential candidate Rick Santorum.

[AngryAmish]

16. This is exactly right

[pa28]

35. This explains so much.

Maybe you should consider turning it into an OP.

[GitRDun]

7. I have said it before on this site,

many people have become so intellectually lazy that facts for them, do not matter.

It is sad but true, and if that becomes true for enough people, we are in real trouble.

So far we have managed to squeek past Palin, looks like Romney as well.

The real risk will come when the liar is ACTUALLY LIKEABLE on the surface.

[bongbong]

27. I know what you mean

> The real risk will come when the liar is ACTUALLY LIKEABLE on the surface.

You mean raygun?

[bowens43]

9. The average American doesnt care about truth.

[clydefrand]

10. stupid is as stupid does

[porphyrian]

11. Make them do the work; ask them to explain why. n/t

[wtmusic]

13. As you probably suspect

this person was ready to check out. She made it clear the conversation was over.

I know there have always been stubborn stupid people who are unreachable. This person was smart enough to understand, but was too lazy.

Maybe we do need wars to keep people interested in politics.

[porphyrian]

17. There is no single solution.

Many people shut down as soon as you mention politics. Others will talk about it all day, as long as you agree with them. Some people like to argue, and will simply take a contrary position to everything you suggest. Hell, there are people like these here. The best thing to do is not to break your neck trying to convince others of things, but to do the right thing yourself, believe the right thing, and be confident that you are right, regardless of what everyone else says or does. Most people hate being wrong and most people respond to confidence as truth. That alone will have them questioning their position eventually, if not right away. But, again, different things work on different people, so there really is no "one size fits all" answer.

[coalition_unwilling]

14. For an alternate take on this question, please see a thread I posted

awhile back:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021156152

[mnhtnbb]

15. I hear your frustration. They aren't interested in facts. They have an opinion--

based on what?--and that's the end of it.

[backscatter712]

18. Half this country is so fucking stupid I wonder how they remember to breathe. n/t

[Horse with no Name]

22. I know

I got into a discussion with someone who was breathless over seeing 2016 and couldn't wait to tell me about it.

The sum of my answer was...is basically the movie reinforced what you already wanted to believe so that is why it makes good propaganda for the ones who are easily brainwashed.

That went over well....

They just simply don't care.

[Matariki]

20. Lies stick. People choose to believe them, repeat them and absurdly they become part of the dialog

It's like a news organization printing lying headlines then printing their retraction in small print way in the back of the paper. Damage done, it's the lies that get stuck in people's heads.

[RobertEarl]

21. This mode of thinking

"Well you can make all those points, but then you hear someone else come up with all the reasons why that's not so after all. I just think nuclear power will be better for the economy."

That kind of thinking -- denying the science of how dangerous nukes are -- is the same that says Romney will be fine. A denial of reality is the chief dis-ease of our society.

[Odin2005]

23. That quote is a perfect example of the cancer that is Postmodern thinking.

I call it the cult of "but that's just your OPINION, man!!!"

[lunatica]

24. Don't bother to try this far into the election season

It's the craziest time of the crazy time of Presidential campaigns. That person has made up their mind, and if Romney becomes President through the ignorance of people like him they will suffer too. At least we have that consolation. The idiocrats will suffer too.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

25. I think a major problem that exists in the matter of truth

these days is similar to your earlier conversation with a poster who refuses to read the report on Lance Armstrong: many people don't bother to do their own research and as a result end up only repeating what their favorite propagandists say. Once that happens, the truth is a casualty.

[glacierbay]

26. Hahahahaha

you actually tried to have a truthful conversation with a Rmoney supporter. No wonder you're doing this:
Here's your punishment for even thinking that you could have a truthful discussion with a Rmoney supporter: .

[vaberella]

28. You cannot argue with buffoonery. n/t

[hfojvt]

29. does the truth matter that much here?

My last attempt to show (once again) how Republican policies (including Romney's which are the same old, same old) are bad for the economy, got very little traction http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021566043

Whereas an OP that says "I fucking hate Mitt Romney" or "Ann Romney is a vile, disgusting excuse for a human being". Those types of posts get much more traction than any boring discussion of the facts.

How can anybody think Romney will be better for the economy when he is promising a return to Bush policies and those policies wrecked the economy?

[RepublicansRZombies]

30. The Corporate media is to blame- People are busy working three jobs

They do not all have time to read the net and search for the truth.

WE have to do something to hold the media accountable. In order to use our public airwaves,

They sign a license with the FCC stating they will serve the public interest.

They are clearly only serving their own interests. There must be a way to yank their license.

We should at the very least protest at the media outlets, as is done in other countries.

Angry Libyan protesters storm TV channel for Bani Walid coverage (PHOTOS)
http://rt.com/news/libya-benghazi-tv-storm-947/

Protesters attacked the HQ of the private TV station Al-Hurra in Benghazi, claiming the channel’s coverage of the Bani Walid events was used to justify assaults against the city.

[PufPuf23]

31. One has to wonder if truth ever mattered for the human species.

Corruption

Scapegoating

Anti-intellectualism

Tribalism

Greed

Fear

These are the human traits that predominate and have predominated in human history on any scale of human society from family to institution to nation to globe.

[Egalitarian Thug]

33. No. Opinion is elevated the level of fact and all opinions are deemed equal. n/t

[randome]

34. I blame Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle!

If the Universe is relative then so are facts.

[Smickey]

36. It's the education system stoopid.

I know to talk about our lacking system of education is like handling a pin-less grenade with soapy hands but the many good points brought up here are an outcome of an education system more and more owned and/or controlled by the very people who would like us to believe their lies.

"Teach the children well"

IMHO if we do not seriously take hold of our educational system it is just a matter of time....tic..toc, tic..toc.

[Octafish]

37. Yours is the central question of our time, wtmusic.

The truth always matters. While it doesn't work for every case, it takes with a few. They're the ones who make a difference.