Ok, So I know we have low vax numbers, but why are vaxxed ppl getting sick?

[FirstLight]

I;m really having a hard time wrapping my head around all these breakthrough cases. Sure, they dont end up dead or on a vent, but still?

Going in for my check-up in oerson for the first time since all this started. I've got an autoimmune thing and take suppressants... so I know Im up for a booster by now. Going to ask the Dr to do some tests though before & after... antibodies.
I wanna know if my system is even producing them. SO hopefully they can do a test before and after booster to show me if it's working...

But really, I apologize for not being more up to speed and will read any links you guys throw at me. I dont have cable TV so Im not listening to the MSM all the time, Im sure I'm missing information.

If delta is more contagious and deadly, is the rate of transmission also related to asymptomatic carriers?
I'm just not getting something here... are the unvaxxed and unmasked really just continuing to give this thing a slow roll? what's the next variant?

[cpamomfromtexas]

1. I wonder the same.

Know a vaxxed family that all got breakthrough from another vaxxed family.

I don’t understand what’s going on.

[mucifer]

2. When we were told about the effectiveness of the vax early on we were told

that the vaccine is 95% effective in fighting SEVERE disease So LOTS of people are in that 5%. Lots more get mild disease.

Just because we want it to be 100% doesn't mean it is. It is way better than the flu vaccine.

Plus, now people vaxxed early on are having the vaccine wear off and boosters are helping.

[elleng]

9. Thanks

[Raven123]

15. I remember when Pfizer sayid boosters would be needed, the CDC quickly said we should wait for data

Makes me wonder if the numbers of breakthrough infections would be lower, if they had jumped on this sooner. Nationally , I think we should have tracked this. It’s hard to imagine a country with so much disease and so much access to technology for testing and reporting has not established a national database of all cases to detect early waning of vaccine efficacy. I think we should follow the science” but we can’t follow what we don’t have.

My opinion on the “prevents serious disease “ definition of success is changing too. Like the common cold, having mild disease isn’t fun and it’s very contagious. Unlike the common cold, COVID-19 is more deadly. So if possible I would like to avoid any infection.

[Igel]

32. Probably not.

The data speak to serious illness.

That hasn't changed much.

I've had students with COVID. You'd think from listening to people around here that they all suffered horribly and death would be preferable. Fear is the mind killer.

Some had sniffles.

Some slept a lot.

Some had headaches. Or diarrhea.

A couple had a serious illness and said COVID was horrible. Then, tested, they were both COVID negative. One had strep. The other, CMV. Oops. But with a sample size of 180, it would be statistically exceptional for one to have serious illness.

None went to the hospital.

Many weren't vaccinated.

None were superspreaders. At least not in my classroom where neither I nor most of my students mask. I'm fully vaccinated. if I get sick, (1) I almost certainly won't suffer much and (2) I'll have boosted immunity. Not that anybody follows that science.

Note that all of this is exactly as expected.

[FirstLight]

33. About data tracking, I agree...it's a mess IMO

I looked at the CDC website for reports, and the are basically running on data about 4 months behind the present.

So then it's hard to understand what happening in REAL time due to the lag on data.

I know that it's not a perfect thing, science rarely is... but you'd think we could get more and better numbers in real-time

[Crunchy Frog]

43. Or at least make better use of data from Israel and other countries that are better

than we are at tracking data.

[Crunchy Frog]

40. We were actually told that it was effective agaisnt actual infection and transmission.

After more studies were done. And that was true before the Delta variant, and before immunity started to wane, while the vaccines were still fresh. That's why the CDC initially told vaccinated people that they could ditch the masks.

I think what we're seeing now is a combination of a much more transmissible variant, coupled with vaccine effectiveness wearing off, with not enough people getting boosters, in addition to people becoming much more lax about following other kinds of precautions.

I think there's still way too many people trying to downplay the prevalence and potential seriousness of breakthrough infections, along with some rewriting of history in order to maintain a narrative that they think is going to encourage antivaxxers to get the shots. Even though it's not actually going to work, and is going to end up further eroding trust overall.

[Ocelot II]

3. The vaccine was never intended to prevent 100% of cases, but to prevent

serious illness and death. No vaccine ever works perfectly (flu vaccines are rarely more than about 60% effective) and there will always be breakthrough cases of all diseases for which people have been vaccinated.
The actual number of breakthrough cases by percentage of total vaccinated population is quite small, but we hear about those cases and not the millions of people who don't get sick. Apparently asymptomatic vaccinated people can transmit the virus but research is still being done in this area. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm

[OAITW r.2.0]

4. If you think the numbers for vax'd infections are bad.

You oughta see the carnage happening to anti-vaxxers. Oh well. No one said the vax was 100%, just your life probability wasa helluva better with the jab than without.

[Bucky]

5. Vaccines boost your immune system's fighting ability

They don't "cure" a disease the way a computer antivirus would prevent a harmful program from working.

This fundamental misunderstanding of how vaccines work is at the heart of why that other viral infection, anti-vax disinformation campaigns, work.

If we'd had a president capable of explaining that instead of muddying the waters, our population would be about a quarter million people bigger today

[Ohio Joe]

17. Bucky is correct

It'll be nice when we can rec a reply.

[Phoenix61]

6. Vaxxed people are getting sick because the

vaccine was designed to prevent serious disease and death and it is amazingly effective at that. Over 90% of those hospitalized are unvaccinated. And yes, the unvaxed are the problem. The reason we don’t see “breakthrough” infections with other vaccines is because everyone, for statistical purposes, is vaccinated. If you travel to some areas where polio is still endemic they will recommend you get a polio booster. How contagious a disease is is a function of the disease.

[FirstLight]

7. Thanks for the input!

It's still pretty narly out there!

[luvs2sing]

8. Count me puzzled as well.

I have a neighbor, A, whose partner caught it and transmitted it to her. They were both double vaxxed, and my friend got her booster the day before she started having symptoms. They are both crazy careful, never go anywhere without a mask. We even mask when we go for walks together.

It’s a mess. They both got tested, at different places, when they started feeling sick, and they both tested negative TWICE. After they kept getting sicker and lost their sense of taste and smell, a friend brought them some rapid tests which were positive. They have both been really sick for over a week. A said she can’t imagine how much sicker she would have been without the vaccine. These are no “mild symptoms”.

To make matters worse, the day A’s partner started having symptoms, A had gone to stay with her parents for a few days because her mother was having outpatient surgery. Both parents were vaxxed and boostered weeks ago, before the surgery. Yesterday, her father tested positive, and today he had an antibody infusion. He seems to be doing well.

A told me the health department called her for contact tracing, and she and her partner racked their brains trying to think of where they could have gotten it. The person at the health department finally said it must have been some fluke thing where one of them walked by an unmasked, unvaccinated person at just the wrong time.

After checking in with them, leaving care packages on their doorstep, and just hearing about what they’re going through, I’m feeling a whole lot less confident in even the most careful person’s ability to fight this thing.

[LisaL]

10. Delta is super infectious.

One can walk by a person with delta covid and catch it in mere seconds. Sure people were masks, but cloth masks and surgical masks aren't designed to prevent infection-they don't offer complete protection to the wearer. One needs to wear N95 and wear it properly (proper fit, so air if filtered through the mask and not getting around it).

[FirstLight]

14. This is horrible!

....and another reason Im not just puzzled but kind of angry/scared. Here we go, do the right thing and still get whalloped.

My 80+ yr old parents refuse to vax cuz they are old and dont give a crap if they die...no kidding. I wanna go visit them, but they also go out to eat every day and live in Nevada, surrounded by TFG worshippers. Even if they were vigilant about masks, I'd be wary. (I dont know how vigilant they are, thery are pretty senile at this point...)

Im just not please that we're being told that if we get vaxxed "everything will be normal/ok" and it's really a false sense of security IMO

[vanlassie]

21. You were never told "everything will be normal."

[FirstLight]

24. dude, maybe not told...but definitely IMPLIED AF

I totally recall that everyone getting poked and speaking about it was like... "you wanna go back to restaurants, concerts, etc?" and "Then we can get BACK to our lives"

[vanlassie]

25. You have greatly over generalized. That is not, not what was said by official sources.

[whathehell]

31. Yes, I agree with you..

It was definitely implied

[BlackSkimmer]

34. Yes, and it was said here.

Not that I believe much of what is said here lol.

But there were several posters saying we would all be FINE once we got the vax.

[Hav]

38. I agree that people were more optimistic back then than now

but I also think we'd be way closer to "fine" if there was a vaccination rate that is comparable to those other diseases. People might still carry the virus around, but I'm sure everything would be on a much lower scale.
Developing the vaccine was one part of the equation, getting everybody on board to get it was the harder part.

[BlackSkimmer]

45. Agree. nt

[Crunchy Frog]

47. There were posters MOCKING other posters here for continuing to wear masks.

Accusing them of being "anti-science" after the CDC said vaxxed people could ditch them.

[BlackSkimmer]

51. Yes, I remember that.

And others mocking back that they were “taking the masks off for good”.

Still wearing mine in public. I actually feel weird without it now. Sad thing. I guess.

[Crunchy Frog]

53. I've moved from cloth masks to n95s.

I'm shocked at how many unmasked people I see around here these days. Especially the ones who are elderly. And this is not a crazy MAGAt area.

[BlackSkimmer]

55. Me too.

I actually live in a very red area, but most are wearing masks. Good to see.

[Crunchy Frog]

46. The CDC told vaccinated people that they were "protected" and could ditch their masks.

I have a longer memory than most on here. I remember lots of people on here being very upset about that premature announcement. I also remember many smug posters accusing people here of being "anti-science" for simply stating that they would continue to mask.

Official sources were absolutely trying to sell a return to normalcy. Pushing historical amnesia doesn't help anyone.

[Elessar Zappa]

28. You misunderstood then.

No expert ever claimed that the vaccine would be 100% effective. 90-95% of deaths are the unvaxxed. That means the vaccines are highly effective.

[Brainfodder]

30. NV still has indoor mass mandate for all?

I am there and got my booster 2 days ago, everyone in the place was masked.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

11. The CDC announcement months ago...

... that vaccinated people didn't need to wear masks probably caused some of the confusion.

The vaccines only reduce the chances of getting seriously ill from Covid (by a lot), just like masks help reduce those chances (not as much).

It's a probability game. If someone is very worried about getting seriously ill or dying from Covid, they should try to avoid congested social situations too... especially within enclosed spaces.

[LisaL]

12. And wear N95s in public.

NT

[Buckeye_Democrat]

13. Yep, that's even better. nt

[BlackSkimmer]

35. I wear my mask anytime I'm around people.

Being the hermit I am, that’s not much.

[secondwind]

16. The darn virus keeps MUTATING. I believe this is the problem........

just my 2 cents....

[LisaL]

20. Pretty much.

We are witnessing survival of the fittest (delta is the fittest so far) in action.

[snowybirdie]

18. Life is not perfect

This is a new disease, and we're very fortunate the scientists have brought us this far. Keep masking and distancing. This Is not over no matter what we want. Thankful we have some protection.

[liberal_mama]

19. With Delta, you have to be vaccinated, Wear a Good Mask (N95, KF94, ect) and take precautions!

In my county, we've had 2200 cases in the last week and today's Buffalo Bills game was packed with 80,000 maskless people, screaming at the top of their lungs for 4 hours.

See the precautions that Jen Psaki was taking. We should all take her cue and do the to protect ourselves and others. She was not only vaccinated, but only spoke to President Biden outside, wore a mask, and stayed 6 feet away from him. If Jen is taking those kind of precautions, we all should be. And Jen still ended up infected, but hopefully she didn't infect anyone else.

The CDC should be on TV and social media constantly warning people to wear good masks and social distance, even if vaccinated.

[JanMichael]

23. Your last sentence...Walensky isn't built for that. Nt

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

26. Some vaccines actually do prevent the disease.

Smallpox, the MMR one, various others.

From the very beginning we were told this vaccine wouldn't necessarily prevent the disease, but should do a good job of preventing a serious manifestation, and most deaths. All of them have performed exactly as advertized.

Not to mention it is still mostly older people or those with certain conditions, like obesity, who are more likely, vaccinated or not, to get seriously ill and/or die. Yes, some younger people, including children, have died, but they really are a tiny minority.

[roamer65]

27. The virus doesn't care if anyone is vaccinated or unvaccinated.

It’s still going to give you a try. All boils down to how well your immune system reacted to the vaccine.

I think symptomatic infections are going to be nearly non-existent in triple vaxxed people with uncompromised immune systems.

[tinrobot]

29. Probaby because unvaxxed/unmasked people keep spreading it.

You're much more likely to catch it from someone who is unmasked, because that allows the virus to propagate. Unvaxxed people will carry a much higher viral load when they are infected, so they are more likely to spread it as well.

The vaccine doesn't prevent you from catching it if exposed, but it will make the symptoms much less severe.

[inwiththenew]

36. At this point I'm just resigned to the fact that everybody is going to get it

No way around it. We had a window to prevent that but that shipped sailed. Now it's going to get us all eventually. Still get the vaccination and practice safe habits.

[FirstLight]

39. god I hope not, but then the pessimist in me agrees...

and then I think about world population and maybe it's not a bad thing? (I feel horrible for these dark thoughts, but Im a Gen Xer, I guess it's in our blood lol)

regardless of mandates, Im still avoiding human contact and masking. Went for a trip to the Bay area and the mandate was in place and people were even masking outdoors, no issues.

But that those California liberals, you know they are sheep and dont fight back aginst the mandates (again, joke!)


I guess time will tell, maybe it wont be Covid but the next narly mutant thing that will take us out. I guess it's a race between that and climate change... All in All I guess you could say I have a pretty bleak outlook for the next 5-10 years.

[Bettie]

37. A vaccine isn't a forcefield

it is a way to help the body fight off a virus.

So, some are going to get it. Vaccinated people are a lot less likely to die from it.

[FirstLight]

41. ok...so why does the chickenpox vaccine work more like 100% ?

I guess we cant compare the vaxs our kids got for measles, mumps, etc to the vax for flu and Covid

Maybe There needs to be some educating on the differences... Or are those recent Measles outbreaks also hitting vaxed kids? if so, then we need some more education on the efficacy of ALL vaxes...cuz as a parent, the Dr's who were giving vaxes to kids were not saying...this Might not work, but your kids wont get AS sick. I never had that conversation.

[Bettie]

42. There aren't as many people infected with chicken pox

out wandering around.

Covid is exceptionally infectious. But, I'm not an epidemiologist, so I don't have all the answers, but I'm happy to be vaccinated.

[Ms. Toad]

48. The chicken pox vaccine is 90% effective.

So not as good at preventing infection as the mRNA vaccine, but more effective than teh J&J.

Both have similar R0 numbers (measure of infectiveness).

BUT about 91% of the population is vaccinated for chicken pox (a tad above the 90% vaccinate rate needed for the R0 to provide herd immunity).

The fully vaccinated rate for the population is still below 60%. (And, that may not include children not yet eligible for vaccination, which will drop it even lower.) As long as the vaccinated popuation is below the percentage needed for herd immunity, the disease is still going to spread.

[Ms. Toad]

44. The effectivenessof the vaccine against earlier (less infectious variants)

was 95% for the mRNA vaccines and around 75% for J&J. So even under the best of conditions, for every 20 unvaccinated people who get sick, one mRNA vaccinated person could expect to get sick under similar circumstances. For J&J, it is one in 4.

Delta is not the best of circumstances. The same exposure that gave 5 unvaccinated people alpha COVID will now give about 2 mRNA vaccinated people COVID. (There isn't enough informaton to estimate for Delta)

On top of that, vaccinated people feel (like you) that the vaccine makes them invulnerable. So that cold, allergies, headache can't be COVID - so they keep circulating and spreading it, don't isolate from families so the entire vaccinated family gets it. (In the first 5 days, the viral load is just as heavy as it is in vaccinated people.)

So it's not just unvaccinated people contributing to the problem. It is also the vaccinated who aren't wearing masks, and arent' staying home with symptoms consistent with COVID.

[FirstLight]

49. ...like me? ...no , actually I have no expectations of invulnerability

And I wholeheartedly agree with you about the stats of 95-75% effectiveness is NOT in relation to the New Variants. (Do we even HAVE those numbers yet? I have no idea where to even look)

I am just going to try and stay inside and order online when I can... It's available so yeah why not!?
If I *do* decide to go anywhere I mask up. I dont mask at work unless there's mor people inj the lobby... but usually it's only like 2-4 people and they are masked and I am distanced bahind my counter and plexiglass. So I feel pretty good at work actually... I just dont wanna get too comnfortable, thats for sure. and as more LARGE gatherings happen...expecially like haloween, holiday events ... I think it's best to just assume everyone is carrying something!

[Ms. Toad]

52. Your OP implies otherwise -

You seem to be expressing incredulity that vaccinated people are getting COVID. Which is the same thing I have heard from all of the people I know who had "colds," "Allergies," or "headaches" which turned out to be COVID in the last 3 months. "I'm sure it's not COVID because I'm vaccinated." Fortunately, all but one followed the work rules, reported it, and tested.

If you are indoors unmasked with people you are not living with, you are not being safe. 6' is not a safe distance. COVID has been transmitted as far away as 30', and as much as an hour after the infected person left the room. (And - if vaccinated members of your family are infected - count on catching it. I.e. it is not even safe to be unmasked at home unless everyone is vaccinated and being extremely cautious.)

My employee never goes anywhere without a mask, aside from home with her family and for very brief periods with her parents. She came down with a bout of "allergies" a few weeks ago, and gave her entire family (vaccinated and not) COVID

[Crunchy Frog]

54. I dodged a bullet recently. I had a appt with my NP who prescribes my psych meds

and I wasn't able to go to the appt in person due to being down to only one car in the family. Then she tells me that she had gotten a really bad cold and still had symptoms, but hadn't actually gotten tested to see if it was Covid. It couldn't be Covid because she was vaxxed and wore a mask, so why bother testing?

Even the "careful" people aren't being that careful these days.

[Ms. Toad]

57. Yup.

My employee was so sure it was allergies that she drove in to work to get tested (about a 45 minute drive from home), sure she would test negative then wander on over to work. She ended up in holding over there for the rest of the morning while they did another instant test, and a PCR.

My spouse responded that way when she had a buddy come over to fix our bathroom faucet. I turned on the exhause fan after he left, since said buddy was not wearing a mask. She turned it off and commented, "He's vaccinated and everything." She has the same response when I ask her to test after she's been risky. The fan stayed on - and if I'd had my purifier at home, it would have been on, too.

[JustAnotherGen]

50. Are they dying

To me - especially 1 week after my booster? I still mask up, still avoid public places, etc. etc. but if I slip - I have a back up to keep me from dying.

[Meowmee]

56. I wrote a long reply and it was lost

Last edited Wed Nov 3, 2021, 04:44 AM - Edit history (1)

Here is the short version keep masking after your booster. The response to the pandemic in this country has been a fucking joke from the very beginning- lies and misinformation, terrible decisions etc. from both sides. Keep masking with KN95, social distance, stay away from anyone who can’t be trusted 100%, and don’t stop that until the cases are down. People in this country are a bunch of idiots even the ones who claim not to be are indeed spreading Covid so protect yourself. You are high risk so protect yourself. No vaccine protects you 100%. The vast majority of breakthrough cases do not require hospitalization and or cause death. But there is still always a risk of that. And you can still spread the virus even with an asymptomatic or a mild case which you may assume is just a cold.You can also have lt effects from any case of covid.

[ProfessorGAC]

58. No Scientists Promised Otherwise

Not sure about the source of your confusion.
First of all nobody ever claimed any vax was 100% efficacious. So, from the very beginning we knew some vaxxed people would still get infected. If you expected perfect, you were kidding yourself.
Besides, some is pure math.
If a locale of 100,00 people had 100% vax rate, and had one case, the % of breakthrough cases would be 100% of cases yet the infection rate would be 0.001%.
We have to maintain proper context with the numbers.
Keeping the number simple & worst case, one is 1/8th as likely to get infected, by any variant compared to being unvaccinated.
If one is infected, a vaxxed person is 1/9th as likely to get a serious case.
So, for every 72 unvaxxed people who get really sick, 1 vaxxed person gets to the same place.
That seems like a pretty good shift in the odds as to not provoke consternation over the failure to achieve perfection.