Manchin is right, if we want more progressive things in bill, we need to elect more

[JohnSJ]

progressives.

Until that happens, that is the reality of the situation.

It was clear that was the case three months ago.

We can complain all we want about Manchin or Sinema, but that won't change a thing, unless we gain more progressive seats in 2022

[bigtree]

1. that's the height of cynicism

...since he's the one blocking progress right now.

[JohnSJ]

2. It may be, but it is true. After six months it is pretty evident

[PatSeg]

13. A bigger Democratic majority

could serve to make Manchin irrelevant. He has been center stage far too long.

[JohnSJ]

16. Absolutely. I would argue that Manchin is not even a moderate. If he was, we wouldn't be in the

situation we are in now

[PatSeg]

29. Yeah, he's more of a conservative Democrat

and he does vote with Democrats more than the right-wing Trumpists in today's republican party. In a bygone era, Manchin might have been a moderate republican. I am more on the liberal side, but for the most part, I have no problem with most moderate Democrats. Manchin does not fit that mold. It is like he is trying to be his own party, stubbornly refusing to play well with others just because he can.

Maybe he wants to be viewed as a maverick like John McCain, but he is coming across as self-centered and inflexible. Debbie Stabenow tried to reason with him and ended up telling him he was being selfish.

[JohnSJ]

34. Trumpists are another cateogory. I think your assessment has nailed it.

[PatSeg]

44. Yes, Trump republicans are not the same

as republicans that I've known all my life. Though I disagree with traditional republicans on most issues, they are (well were I suppose) sane and relatively consistent. Today's republicans can hardly even be called "conservative", more like radical and unhinged.

[FBaggins]

40. He's open about not being a progressive

Heck... he appears to revel in it.

What he's saying is simple enough - "Majorities pass bills, and you don't have a majority to pass that bill"

You can't run the wishbone offense with an immobile pocket -passing QB. It doesn't matter how good your coach or GM is, you don't have the personnel to run the plays in that offense.

This was essentially locked in after the January runoffs in GA (really the November elections). We were never going to get two new states, or an expanded supreme court, or absolutely everything that the President ran on during the campaign. We were going to get the kinds of incremental-but-substantial change that you can get through control of the executive branch plus insanely-narrow majorities in the house/senate.

[Nixie]

55. I figured he was looking at the election results and this

confirms it, although I was attacked for stating the obvious.

The “progressive” campaigns lost nationally and he’s made a note of it.

[Phoenix61]

3. BS. Manchin needs to remember what party

he’s a member of. Nobody’s asking him to screw the people of his state who want what’s in both of the bills.

[JohnSJ]

4. and how exactly will that change the situation we are in now?

It is pretty clear that Manchin is not going to change his view on certain things in the bill regardless

[Phoenix61]

7. If he worked for the party he is supposedly a

member of he’s vote for the bill even if he doesn’t like every single little thing in it.

[JohnSJ]

18. That is the problem Phoenix, he doesn't care. I also wish some would stop characterizing Manchin

as a moderate. He is no moderate. He is a conservative, through and through

[Phoenix61]

46. Yep! nt

[LakeArenal]

5. Bull is right. HE needs to support the Democratic platform

Not saying he has to agree but he has to negotiate in good faith; Which he does not.
Biden is considered a centrist. Manchin could move a bit more centrist. He refuses.
Manchin doesn’t negotiate. He blocks and and obstructs.

[JohnSJ]

8. No he doesn't have to.

[LakeArenal]

25. Obviously that's my point. It's not have to it's WON'T.

Has misrepresented himself. WV wants the things Manchin is obstructing.

[Earth-shine]

6. I don't feel that Manchin and Sinema have been negotiating in good faith.

Seems there has been some movement lately.

But, neither Manchin nor Sinema want Biden to be a successful president.

[JohnSJ]

10. I agree, and there is no reason to think that is going to change unless we can get at least

a two seat majority in the Senate, and maintain the majority in the House

[Act_of_Reparation]

9. You realize the argument also works in reverse, right?

Like, if we wanted to pass watered-down half-measures we would have elected more... whatever Joe Manchin is.

[JohnSJ]

14. The problem is a 50-50 Senate isn't a true majority with people like Manchin and Sinema

The reverse doesn't work, because unfortunately we didn't elect enough people to overcome their obstruction

[Act_of_Reparation]

32. Yes, it certainly does.

The bill has to pass the House first. And if Manchin can invoke responsibility to his constituents as justification for obstructing legislation, so can progressives in the House.

[JohnSJ]

35. I don't share your optimism with Manchin. He can invoke responsibility, but I would be

very surprised if he did.

If he hasn't done it by now, I don't think there is any indication he plans to

[Act_of_Reparation]

47. I don't know what you mean by that.

Manchin's stated reasons for opposing the bill are they are not good for his constituents. I'm saying he's using his responsibility to represent West Virginians as his rationale for obstructing legislation.

[JohnSJ]

50. He will say one thing one day, and then contradict himself the next day

[Act_of_Reparation]

51. I get it that.

I don't for a second think Machin is actually representing the interests of West Virginians obstructing his bill. That's just the rationale he provides... and I'm saying it works both ways, that progressives can very well make the same argument.

[JohnSJ]

52. Understood

[lagomorph777]

49. Another kind of reverse: We can't elect more progressives unless we force SineManchin to play along.

By Blocking BBBB, they are making Dems useless. Voters will punish us.

They do have a price, or a breaking point. We have to find that price, or find their breaking points.

Pork, bribes, political pressure on and from constituents. SineManchin are building their retirement nest eggs. Bribe them to play along (i.e. serve plenty of pork to the fossil fuel and pharma lobbies; pay them to do some positive things in renewables and vaccines for the 3rd world). Get some shit done and prove to voters that we are what we say we are.

[Efilroft Sul]

11. Perhaps he should put his money where his mouth is and amend the filibuster rule.

You know, to protect voter rights and get more progressives elected.

[JohnSJ]

20. Irony, but an excellent point

[ColinC]

12. That's actually why he doesn't have so much sway on this legislation

Like he would have in 2010, anyways. Enough progressives have been elected to make sure that non progressive legislation won't make it to the floor. Instead, if Manchin wants more moderate legislation passed, then we need more moderates elected.

[JohnSJ]

15. but not enough to offset a 50-50 Senate. I would also argue that Manchin is not particularly a

moderate. If he was we wouldn't be in this situation

[ColinC]

17. We need to elect more democrats, sure.

But keep in mind that the reason we even have 50 seats is because we gained two progressive senators from a red state. So surely, we are on the right track.

[JohnSJ]

19. yup

[LakeArenal]

27. Yes more real Democrats progressive or moderate.

Manchin is neither but portrayed one to be elected. Now refuses to support what the majority of his party and constituents want.

[ColinC]

48. It's time to just put him on record, pass what we can and let the world know

Who's side he's really on (not the people's).

[Celerity]

33. Manchin IS a moderate (or a centrist if you prefer) if you define moderate or centrist as being

dead in the centre between the 2 parties.

It is just that the centre of the ideological makeup of congress (and the US in general) has been slid so far to the right by the batshit crazy Rethugs.

[JohnSJ]

41. A few days ago was he characterizing himself as a conservative. Other times he

referred to himself as a "moderate"

During the 2020 primaries Joe Manchin said that if Bernie Sanders was the Democratic nominee, he absolutely would not support Sanders in the general election, and would consider voting for trump if that happened.

Manchin also endorsed Susan Collins over her Democratic challenger.

I am not sure what one would classify Manchin as, but if he were a real moderate, he wouldn't be doing what he is doing

[Celerity]

53. Oh, I have a word that fits him, lol.

[in2herbs]

21. Your idea is a good one but get rid of gerrymandering first and then let's talk. nt

[JohnSJ]

24. unfortunately, we got undercut on that with the census and the pandemic, with trump and

company intentionally not wanting to have a fair census

you are right, the gerrymandering is hurting us

[In It to Win It]

22. Absolutely! More progressives need to be elected

That's a difficult task for Senate elections. The small percentage of middle-of-the-road voters do exist and they need to be swayed. If Democrats have a chance at gaining more seats in the Senate, these are gonna be marginal victories. Also, progressives have to be better at their messaging.

People are more worried about their jobs than climate change.
People are more worried about the cost of living than voting rights they never think about.
People are more worried about childcare than a dreamer they never met.
People are more worried about what their kids are learning in school than what their kids' teachers are getting paid.
People are more worried about what's in their circle than a problem that is geographically too far away and too far into the future and one that they don't feel.

Our party can walk and chew gum. Messages can cater to people's personal circle and talk about climate change, voting rights, police reform. When running in a statewide race, the primary message should always cater to people's backyard or kitchen table issues... and also throw some shade at their opponent. Progressives have to be good at that kind of messaging. A overly progressive message will never have a chance in a Senate race in Florida so a progressive would need to adapt.

[LakeArenal]

30. IMO Bernie wouldn't be getting anymore done than Biden.

Progressives might consider moving toward the center too.

[In It to Win It]

54. I agree, Progressives would be very upset and unhappy with Bernie right now

[Celerity]

23. so you are now saying that BIDEN'S CORE promises/legislative programmes, even AFTER a 50% gutting

by the two obstructionist Senators, are now too progressive, too ambitious, too 'radical', despite massive whole programmes ripped out, roots, and all, and already tossed into the bin??

Should we just mostly give up on the BBB Act (perhaps stick Manchin and Sinema in a room with a pencil and a piece of paper and let them scribble out a tiny list of vastly reduced things they accept out of hand)?

Should we just only accept an almost 80% shredded (in terms of Biden's new spend) BIF, almost all of which is long term huge projects that will have little impact for the average American before the 2022 midterms? Just say, oh well, it was the best we could do even with with control of the POTUS and both congressional chambers? All those promises about building a better America for the vast majority of people? Forget them, just vote for us in even bigger numbers next time! Just like you did in Virginia..... oh wait.

Are you going to say the same thing about the voter protection bills?

If we did those things, we will get CRUCIFIED come 2022. We will be lucky to end up with 45 or 46 Senators and 165 to 175 House seats.

we need to elect more
progressives.

Until that happens, that is the reality of the situation.

that will NEVER happen if we cock all of this up

[leftstreet]

26. Two moderates blocking a moderate POTUS agenda

caused a moderate candidate to lose in VA

but It'S ToO fAr lEfT

[JohnSJ]

31. Tell me Celerity, what makes you think Manchin is going to change? It is a 50-50 Senate

Manchin is not a moderate, he is a conservative.

This is the facts what we are facing now.

Whatever the House passes in the BBB, I am pretty sure the Senate will remove whatever Manchin and Sinema don't want in order to pass something, and then put the ball back in the House court. So what are they going to do then?

As for the voter protection bill, unless that can be done with reconciliation, Manchin and Sinema are not going to make an exception in the filibuster rules for that, which means it is a pretty good bet there is not going to be a voter protection bill passed.

You poise the question, because of these two Senators should we accept 80% of the bills shredded?

My question to you is what is your solution with a 50-50 Senate, and two conservative Senators?

[Celerity]

37. We need to white knuckle thru the BBB at the 1.75 trillion level that Manchin himself just accepted

again today. Work out the kinks in the Senate, and then pass both bills in the House asap. Sinema is much closer than Machin to being a yes vote atm, so she is far less of an issue as of now.

[JohnSJ]

42. That is happening right now in the House. The only thing Manchin accepted was the price tag

not the contents

I also agree with you about Sinema

[Elessar Zappa]

28. Unfortunately, that's right.

We’re in a bind unless and until we elect more Dems. The problem is that the obstruction by those two are going to make it hard to make gains in 2022.

[Lunabell]

36. How are they going to get elected without DNC backing?

Won't happen.

[Busterscruggs]

38. Is there anyone

More progressive and appropriate to primary him in the next election? He clearly doesn't support progressive interests like he should.

[Celerity]

45. He will be the last Dem elected in WV for ages, primarying him is pointless, and he will likely lose

anyway if he even runs again in 2024.

Justice has outflanked him on both the right AND on the left.

[Backseat Driver]

39. How many times have I heard that Democrats have a wide umbrella -

In this case, these two deserve to stand in the roaring severe thunderstorm they've selfishly created. In fact, maybe they ought have the integrity to to head for the shelter of a Log Cabin and seek to reform from that side. Truth is, they don't want ANY reform, so cozily protected by personal fortune and corporate person donations. Are there progressive candidates willing to do the hard, next to impossible, work to challenge their stagnant agendas; better go looking for those fit for the revolution they espouse.

As for progressives, those now under the edges of that umbrella, if they've got such better ideas, need to see that those proposals are submitted, studied in committee, all the while using a megaphone to tell the rest of Democrats across the spectrum just how those proposals can help America Build Back Better, now that the counting's done for several years. Then the People might be less skeptical and elect more of them.

Words like "revolution," don't really sit too well in the minds of those whose heads are only somewhat dry and have even minor shelter from the storm, though their feet are thoroughly soaking in the puddles and floods while the GQP sends bolts of lightening toward random spots in the portion of unmaintained pot-holed parking lot surface outside the mall for legislation of the site's owners. Not a chance one would safely approach the door! The few who challenge that storm rationally through process rather than run out announcing the sky is full of shock and awe...might have a better chance of being heard through the loud claps of thunder. Most under any sort of umbrella are skeptical and/or despairing that door is even unlocked and ready to serve them.

[JohnSJ]

43. I agree