General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAnyone else think there's something fishy about the Rittenhouse trial?
I dunno. This whole trial seems as if it was rigged from the beginning. You have Thomas Binger, a prosecutor who has made some mistakes that probably no first week law student would even make, and a openly biased judge seemingly hellbent on doing whatever it takes to move the trial in the direction of either a mistrial with prejudice or an acquittal for Cryin' Kyle.
Binger's motives for what appears to be him purposely tanking parts of Rittenhouse's prosecution would be especially interesting to explore, particularly If he has any future plans to enter politics. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that Binger's primary motive for botching things up is to try and give himself plausible deniability to any future critics from the left about his mishandling of this case. He can always fall back on the old excuse of "Well, I tried my best. Blame the judge and/or jury".
Would anyone be really shocked if it was learned later on that (so-called) Judge Schroeder and Thomas Binger made some kind of arrangement before the trial that would ensure an acquittal of Rittenhouse while preserving Binger's reputation for any future political career?
There's definitely something amiss here. We'll know for certain if something shady was afoot if this obvious murderer and unabashed white supremacist walks free.
Ocelot II
(115,835 posts)It's sort of a corollary to Ockham's Razor.
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)being familiar with basic constitutional law, zero and none?
No, Schroeder and Binger's courtroom comportment give it away. It reeks of an "I'll set 'em up, you knock 'em down" backroom arrangement between these two.
harumph
(1,913 posts)Do you think that for example, Ted Cruz or Josh Hawley are stupid and incompetent? They're not -
but rather savvy and malicious. The GOP is rife with pols that play dumb in order
to push an agenda.
Ocelot II
(115,835 posts)Of course you are entitled to yours.
harumph
(1,913 posts)Remember the Brooks Bros. Riot? Those were
just a bunch of pranking cut-ups? Right? The point I'm making (and no, I don't
think you're stupid) - is simply that many times planned malicious events are set up
to be interpreted as "goofing around." Frat pranks. Looney Qanon types, doing CWAZY things...
when in effect, the organizers of said events aren't crazy or incompetent at all, in fact it's
a well know strategy of creating plausible deniability.
Ocelot II
(115,835 posts)one is also considered stupid for having presented it.
But I am not saying there couldn't have been a conspiracy; I am saying only that collusion between the judge and the prosecutor for the purpose of acquitting Rittenhouse is unlikely because there is a simpler, more probable explanation - which is that the judge is a showboater who is loving the national spotlight and probably never should have been on the bench in the first place, and that the prosecutor isn't very good at his job. I also suspect there might be a history of bad blood between the judge, who is a dingbat, and the prosecutor, who is clearly frustrated. But the prosecutor screwed up; he should have charged lesser included offenses in the first place, and he shouldn't have referred to evidence the judge had already excluded - this could have been a setup for a mistrial, but the judge didn't do it and instead is letting the case go to the jury. If there had been a conspiracy to acquit Rittenhouse, it seems to me the judge could have justifiably declared a mistrial; Oregon v. Kennedy says that if a mistrial is provoked by prosecutorial misconduct, the defendant can't be retried.
My point is that seeing conspiracies every time something goes sideways does not account for the infinite number of ways people can fuck things up without help, and claiming that some fuckup was a conspiracy can lead down a slippery slope where tinfoil hats are worn.
CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)It also often lets bad people off the hook by dismissing them as stupid. Sorry if you take offense to that but the quote doesnt play in this instance IMHO.
unblock
(52,317 posts)While courts manage to convict black people in the absence of any direct evidence of anything?
I'm sure there's nothing to see here, move along.
Republicans tell me institutional racism is a thing if the past. Oh, I mean it never existed.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)oldtime dfl_er
(6,931 posts)no peace
RockRaven
(14,992 posts)Obvious behavior is obvious, and automatic.
You don't need to posit specific arrangements between discreet individuals when the whole fucking system is tilted in one particular direction -- as much today as it was in yesteryear.
eppur_se_muova
(36,287 posts)lees1975
(3,879 posts)it's a duck. And if it looks like this was rigged, it was rigged.
I don't live too far from Kenosha, it's a nice place and we go there to eat German food every now and then. Most people we've spoken with from there are hoping Rittenhouse gets life without parole.
TDale313
(7,820 posts)I do think the Judge is clearly biased and his rulings and comments make that perfectly clear. He is impacting this Jury.
MustLoveBeagles
(11,633 posts)I freely admit to having only watched it in bits and pieces as I can't stand looking at Rittenhouse. Most of my info about the trail has come from DU's posters. Both ones I agree with and those I don't. I lean towards the theory that his hands were tied by the judge's rulings pre trial and that caused him to take some reckless and foolish chances.
Of course he's also been doxxed on social media so I don't know if that played any role in this. I did an OP about it in General Discussion. His address has been published online and people have been encouraged to protest in front of his home. The Governor has 500 National Guardsman on standby in preparation of the verdict. I'm sure these distractions didn't help either.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)UTUSN
(70,730 posts)canetoad
(17,181 posts)But I doubt a conspiracy between the judge and prosecutor. Hubris and incompetence would probably cover it.
Decoy of Fenris
(1,954 posts)I think a lot of people ginned up manufactured outrage and offense because Rittenhouse wasn't one of "ours", and now that (Realistically) he's not going to do much if any time, people are scrambling for any reason at all to justify how 'right' they were and how much the system is 'against' them and how 'wronged' they are. Outrage is a commodity nowadays, and people who can't be outraged feel as if their existence doesn't matter.
Just like the Treyvon Martin case, the writing was on the wall with this one from day 1; Rittenhouse, whether we like it or not, has -entirely- valid Self Defense claims from two of his three victims. If you're having trouble imagining why, just swap his race; If a black man was attacked by a white man with a gun, or had a white man trying to assault him with a skateboard, and the black man shot to defend himself, would you condemn him? If so, congratulations, you're more ethically and racially honest than most, but let's be equally honest, most people would immediately condemn those assaulting him.
ONLY Rittenhouse's second victim stands a chance of invoking a murder charge, but functionally, Rittenhouse had every advantage in this court battle. If they get him for anything other than a weapons charge, I'll be genuinely shocked.
Eyeball_Kid
(7,434 posts)Cynicism is easy with this case. But we'll have to wait.
Decoy of Fenris
(1,954 posts)We can ascribe motives to Rittenhouse all day long, but when one of his "Victims" had a gun out, and the other was actively swinging, it's easy to presume a rational "reasonable doubt".
Should he have been there? No. Should he have had a gun? Obviously not. But he was there, and he had a gun; He had -at least- two people acting as viable, deadly threats. It's not hard to show a reasonable doubt there, regardless of his motives.
100%, if there's weapon charges, he should be found guilty. But for the murder charges, I can't see any reasonable jury delivering a "Guilty" verdict.
mikeysnot
(4,757 posts)No! Good luck with this.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 15, 2021, 06:18 AM - Edit history (1)
... stop him.
He already admitted to pointing his gun at the first short guy, he was the aggressor while committing a crime.
That doesn't sound like self defense to me
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)... narrative.
We shouldn't defend active shooters or potential ones ... I can see why the judge is trying to trash this case.
MichMan
(11,970 posts)Many people made up their minds long ago that he was already guilty regardless of any testimony. I imagine there was a tremendous amount of political pressure on the DA to charge him with premeditated murder.
My biggest surprise was when the star witness, much to the surprise of the prosecution, admitted that he pointed his gun at Rittenhouse first before he was shot.
Ocelot II
(115,835 posts)monkeyman1
(5,109 posts)start at the first of the week , jury , verdict , & hope their won't be needed ! this case has been treated by to much publicity ! the little pos has got way to much media on this. the damn media is at fault if this turn's into a shit show ! next week will tell !
moniss
(4,274 posts)especially in a city as crooked as Kenosha. At least the prosecutor did bring out that the punk never had a drivers license but yet drives to work etc. The punk claimed he only drives where he "has to go" and then within a couple of sentences he says that he knew where the Car Source was because he drove past it almost every day. Antioch to Kenosha almost every day but not to work or go to school. Only places he "has to go". So Mommy lets him illegally drive all over and if he hits somebody then what? Any insurance on this punk while he's "driving"? Well known to Antioch PD/FD because he hung around trying to find out about being an EMT and yet when Antioch PD had him in custody nobody apparently asked for a license?
So the defense puts on a witness and the judge refuses to allow the prosecutor on cross to examine any bias of the witness. That seals the deal right there. If this jury comes back with a conviction on almost any count I would not be surprised to see this judge set aside the verdict. If he doesn't you can be sure he will suspend any sentence he gives or make it as light as possible. Think of how many people got f**ked around by this clown on the bench in his 40 or so years as a judge.
Actually all anybody really needs to know is to hear the testimony of the cop who was in the patrol car when the punk approached him. He said he saw the rifle he had and he was giving the punk commands to back away and get back out of the street but the kid wasn't listening to him or following the commands. What does any rational person think would have happened to a black kid in the same circumstance? We all know that it would have been time for the cop to empty his gun. That is the reality of living in the most segregated and racist area in the country.
Yarnie
(90 posts)so, I assumed that driving past the Car Source was on his way to work. IOW some place he had to go.
testimony is that he worked there for a very short time. He first claimed to only driving infrequently and then to driving quite a bit for pleasure to hang with friends. All with no license. All illegal. Mommy knew her darling little boy had no license but still let him drive all over. Likewise Daddy wherever he is in this whole mess. The kid never should have been there to begin with. If he wanted to work then he could have worked at places he could walk to, get public transportation or had somebody drive him. Just like millions of others do who don't have a drivers license. He didn't HAVE to get a job in Kenosha. A prosecutor worth much would have pursued why he didn't obtain a license and why he felt he was OK to drive despite knowing it was illegal.
This lying punk got on the witness stand and said he has no idea how the gun was removed from a supposedly locked gun safe and that he just "found it" laying in one of the rooms of the house it was supposedly kept at. He also claimed he never checked to see if it was loaded/racked. I'm sure this is believable to his supporters. Why of course you pick up a gun to take it someplace to later "protect" yourself but never bother to see whether you even have ammunition. Sure you do.
MichMan
(11,970 posts)It terms of a murder case, it really isn't relevant
he's not being charged with that and I never said he was. It is incredibly relevant to the attitude of this punk towards obeying laws and as to his truthfulness. He displayed dishonesty in his testimony on this subject. The judge obviously doesn't think that examining a witness for truthfulness in other matters is relevant to their credibility on the charges at hand. Likewise he refused to allow an examination of witness bias. There are more charges here than just murder charges. The judge said the lesser included charges are to be allowed. The point I'm making about his drivers license should be fairly simple to understand. He knew it was illegal. Those around him knew it was illegal. They allowed him to repeatedly and knowingly commit an illegal act in not one but two states that we know of. It goes to state of mind. The punk felt he could do anything he wanted. He knew he couldn't buy the gun himself and so he enlisted a friend to do a straw purchase which is a Federal felony. He didn't care and he to this day does not care that people died at his hand. I fault the prosecutor for not asking him why he didn't stop at one shot at Rosenbaum etc. But at the end of the day this is Wississippi and the crookedness, corruption and police department malfeasance is on display while the people make excuses for it and bend themselves in knots to excuse the acts of this killer.
Sympthsical
(9,108 posts)I had it pegged for Wednesday or so, so this feels early.
People who think the judge is in the tank for the defense paid no attention on Friday.
orleans
(34,073 posts)surely that has to be worth at least 1 get out of jail free card
Kaleva
(36,340 posts)I think it's going to be difficult to convince an entire jury beyond a reasonable doubt that Rittenhouse is guilty of 1st degree intentional homicide, 1st degree attempted intentional homicide and 1st degree reckless homicide.
Jury might vote, if allowed, to convict him of lesser charges.
2naSalit
(86,775 posts)What I did see most certainly had that pro-wrestling feel to it. It was sickening to see but it is not uncommon in our judicial system, the power corrupts many.
WHITT
(2,868 posts)the judge allowed the jury to see the enlarged photo captures from the drone video showing it was Rittenhouse being the aggressor/instigator by raising his assault rifle and pointing it at an unarmed Rosenbaum, thereby shifting the self-defense posture to Rosenbaum.
May be too late however, given the avalanche of previously biased proceedings.
Kaleva
(36,340 posts)"Kyle Rittenhouse testified Wednesday that he acted in self-defense when he fatally shot a man who had thrown a plastic bag at him and chased him last year in Kenosha, Wisconsin, in what is likely to be the pivotal testimony of his homicide trial.
"I didn't do anything wrong. I defended myself," he testified.
But in cross-examination, Rittenhouse said that he knew the man, Joseph Rosenbaum, was unarmed when he ran at the teenager. Rittenhouse said he pointed his rifle at Rosenbaum in an attempt to deter him, adding that he knew pointing a rifle at someone is dangerous.
"He was chasing me, I was alone, he threatened to kill me earlier that night. I didn't want to have to shoot him," Rittenhouse testified. "I pointed it at him because he kept running at me and I didn't want him to chase me."
He said he feared Rosenbaum, who did not touch his body at all that night, would take his gun and kill people."
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/us/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-wednesday/index.html
It's not going to be easy to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that Rittenhouse was the aggressor.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)The prosecution's entire case lies on a couple purple pixels in an extremely zoomed in enhanced video.
The purple pixels supposedly represent Rittenhouse raising his rifle to point it an Rosenbaum, which started the chase across the parking lot. I've looked at the pictures, and I can't see shit. The prosecution spent a lot of the trial downplaying Rosenbaum's physical size, insinuating that he wasn't a threat, but I think the defense successfully proved that Rosenbaum had his hand on the rifle when it went off.
The charges against Rittenhouse for the other two victims are basically unprovable. Rittenhouse, while running away towards the police, was attacked from behind with a skateboard, which the prosecution tried to imply wasn't a deadly weapon, or even a weapon at all. The other victim pointed a pistol at his face. It doesn't get more threatening than that.
That's later, when he shot him. The photo capture was earlier, documenting that Rittenhouse was the aggressor/instigator, removing any imprimatur of self-defense.
As David Forsyth, a professor of computer science at the University of Illinois stated:
There is 'no way' that any means of enlarging a photograph will create structures, objects, people, handguns
You simply haven't seen the photo captures large enough and close enough as others have.
They assumed, and rightly so, that Rittenhouse was an active shooter, soon to be a mass shooter. Under those conditions, you utilize anything available to stop such a person and prevent additional deaths.
LiberalFighter
(51,082 posts)Rittenhouse was a threat. The police didn't do their job when they allowed KR to pose a threat.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)... to stop them from being a threat.
This seems so backwards,
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)... tried to stop him and KR killed some students in the process of them trying to stop him some on DU would call that self defense it sounds like.
KR was illegally in possession of a weapon
KR was in a place he shouldn't be with illegally possessed weapon (school, middle of crowd, whatever)
KR pointed said illegally possessed weapon at people
People tried to stop KR after he pointed said weapon
KR killed people who tried to stop him.
This sounds like its all on KR IMHO ... I don't see how his actions are being defended here.
That was later when he shot him.
The photo capture was earlier, documenting that Rittenhouse was the aggressor/instigator, removing any imprimatur of self-defense.
Kaleva
(36,340 posts)I think most nay reasonable person would too.
WHITT
(2,868 posts)cross state lines and brandish an assault weapon at unarmed civilians, instead of staying home?
That's what most reasonable people would do.
Kaleva
(36,340 posts)and that's why he didn't leave.
You, I and most other reasonable people would have hauled ass if someone pointed a gun at us.
Response to Kaleva (Reply #48)
uponit7771 This message was self-deleted by its author.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)Kaleva
(36,340 posts)Rittehnhouse claimed he was trying to deter Rosenbuam by pointing the gun at him even though he knew Rosenbuam was unarmed.
Then Rittenhouse fled with Rosenbuam in pursuit.
Prosecutor Thomas Binger argued in court that Rittenhouse should have continued to run away from Rosenbuam instead of slowing down and then shooting Rosenbuam.
Personally, I would leave the scene as fast as I could if I saw someone with a gun even regardless if the gun had been pointed at me or anyone else or not and I'd notify the authorities once in a safe location. Guns are dangerous.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)... crap to have a gun pointed at him.
And it looks like from the video KR pointed his gun after coming from around the truck, he didn't have a rhyme or reason for doing something so stupid.
Also, why did he lie about it to the crowd if he knew it was just to "deter" Rosenbaum ... the crowd of people would've seen all of that.
Kaleva
(36,340 posts)Especially is a gun had been pointed at you.
There is no law that requires a person to do so but I say would such an action would be most prudent.
And you, I or most anyone else would certainly not chase a man with a gun who was running away even if he had just committed a misdemeanor, brandished a weapon, under Wisconsin law.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)... stands' what was Rosenbaugh supposed to be deterred from doing in KR's initial brandishing of his weapon.
That's what started that whole running etc, and I think the prosecution should've hammered KR on the reasoning behind the initial pointing of the weapon mercilessly during the trial.
I haven't heard it repeated here on DU much
It looks like KR initiated the threat, regained ability to claim self defense by running away but then pointed his gun again at Rosenbaugh erasing the SD again.
Kaleva
(36,340 posts)Especially with a gun because the chances of something going really bad greatly increases when a gun or guns are present. What could have been limited to just a verbal sparring match at worst ended up with 2 people dead and one injured.
As for Rosenbaum, he should have retreated, IMHO, once he saw the gun, even before it was pointed at him. He wasn't required by law to do so but that would have been the appropriate, safe, response. Staying in the proximity of a armed person and chasing an armed person increases the likelihood of a bad outcome.
My comments are more about what people ought to do in such situations and not of the particular legalities of the case.
We now have video proof that Rosenbaum was NOT the aggressor, and that Rittenhouse was brandishing, threatening, provoking, unarmed civilians with an assault rifle.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)... scream self defense after pointing their gun at people.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)... at what point can KR claim self defense and start killing students when they try to stop him?!
Cause some of these defenses of KR sound just like that ... a kid with an illegally possessed weapon can go around pointing it people and claim self defense if they try to stop him.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)... a felony?
It looks like there's some obvious laws here being just brushed over by the prosecutors
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,430 posts)way they thought or hoped it does.
Vinca
(50,303 posts)Maybe the prosecutor was afraid going too hard on him would engender sympathy for Rittenhouse from the jury. In any case, the whole thing has been a clusterfuck and I fully expect him to be found not guilty and stop by the first gun shop on his way home to pick up a new AR. He'll be a hero to the right and they'll probably want to install him in Congress ASAP.
Greybnk48
(10,176 posts)and the emotional stability of a piranha? He's a racist idiot voted in by right wing mouth breathers.
Response to jcmaine72 (Original post)
manicdem This message was self-deleted by its author.
manicdem
(390 posts)The prosecutor made many mistakes, even ones that could get him disbarred. But it was a bad case to prosecute and I think it was a legit case of self defense.
To prosecute the case, you need witnesses and all the pertinent ones were called up. Grosskreutz key witness testimony helped the defense more than the prosecutor, but he would've been called up no matter who was the prosecutor. Same for all the other witnesses.
The judge did have some bias, but not as much as most think. A lot of the points brought up in DU we're minor or not applicable in court to the case on hand.
From the videos and witness statements, it points to a strong case of self defense. Kyle shouldn't have been there, and broke curfew, but he can still claim self defense when attacked.
Hav
(5,969 posts)I recently heard an assumption that goes in that direction as well: The prosecution probably knew that they didn't have a strong case but the optics would have been disastrous if those shootings weren't prosecuted at all.
I saw portions of Rittenhouse's cross examination and I thought the prosecutor did a pretty decent job trying to cast doubt on the self-defense claims while also exposing some lies Rittenhouse told.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)... killed people, I don't see why that's not all on him.
redgreenandblue
(2,088 posts)because the mere presence of a gun does not negate someone's self defense claim.
Even a convicted felon can use a gun for self defense in very narrow circumstances.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)... when people try to stop him.
The defenses for KR on DU aren't making sense ...
KR as illegally in possession of a firearm and pointing it at people (Rosenbaugh BEFORE the chase) ... sounds like a felony to me.
KR admits to pointing it at the short guy with a bag and admitted he knew the guy wasn't armed when he pointed the firearm ... THE SECOND TIME.
People try to stop KR from being the aggressor and he kills some of them in the process ... I don't see how ... that's self defense.
These aren't pic nits these are actions he admits to and we can see, after that he's committing more crimes being the aggressor.
brooklynite
(94,725 posts)jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)After learning that the misdemeanor gun charge was dropped against Shittenlouse by Roland Freisler reincarnated, I think it's safe to say this trial officially stinks to high heaven. I haven't seen anything this tightly rigged since I visited the USS Constitution ten years ago.
uponit7771
(90,363 posts)Hav
(5,969 posts)It was based on how the law was written. The judge left it to the prosecution to make their case that Rittenhouse holding the gun was illegal but apparently they couldn't do that.