Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

tenderfoot

(8,438 posts)
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:05 PM Nov 2021

Aug 2021: Kyle Rittenhouse dreamed about shooting people days before Kenosha

Newly discovered video caught Kyle Rittenhouse fantasizing about being a vigilante gunning down shoplifters — just 15 days before he shot three protesters in Kenosha, Wisconsin, according to prosecutors seeking to use it in his trial.

The 29-second clip included in a court motion filed Wednesday shows a CVS store, with a voice sounding like Rittenhouse suggesting that people running out were shoplifters.

“It looks like one of them has a weapon,” says the person prosecutors identify as Rittenhouse, but who was not actually seen in the video.

“Brah, I wish I had my f—ing AR. l’d start shooting rounds at them,” says the same person in the video used in the filing.

https://nypost.com/2021/08/20/kyle-rittenhouse-dreamed-about-shooting-people-days-before-kenosha-video/

30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Aug 2021: Kyle Rittenhouse dreamed about shooting people days before Kenosha (Original Post) tenderfoot Nov 2021 OP
Oh man that is bad. applegrove Nov 2021 #1
Yea.... FarPoint Nov 2021 #2
Watch the judge get infuriated at the prosecutor... Buckeye_Democrat Nov 2021 #3
It was known that Rittenhouse made these remarks Hav Nov 2021 #5
I simply disagree with his ruling about propensity... Buckeye_Democrat Nov 2021 #14
The article is from three months ago. Sympthsical Nov 2021 #4
Thank you for taking the time to correct the record, again. n/t Devil Child Nov 2021 #6
The judge was slanted towards the pos. rockfordfile Nov 2021 #7
The criminal histories of the victims didn't come in either Sympthsical Nov 2021 #8
What shithole legal system lets a convicted child molester free to roam the streets? tenderfoot Nov 2021 #9
He served his sentence Sympthsical Nov 2021 #11
So he wasn't rehabilitated, continued hurting children and got what he deserved. tenderfoot Nov 2021 #15
I don't believe there are any pro-Rittenhouse among us. femmedem Nov 2021 #17
Many people have commented on Rosenbaum's criminal history - many of those posts were hidden tenderfoot Nov 2021 #18
I would beg to differ at least in a few cases MustLoveBeagles Nov 2021 #20
Generally evidence of other crimes or bad acts is kept out as more Tomconroy Nov 2021 #10
Ahh, thank you for the clarification Sympthsical Nov 2021 #12
Do you know people are writing about you? Tomconroy Nov 2021 #13
I get irritated a little when I see all the side arguments ForgedCrank Nov 2021 #19
Well said. n/t femmedem Nov 2021 #21
I thought it was relevant to demonstrate intent. Buckeye_Democrat Nov 2021 #24
I suppose that is ForgedCrank Nov 2021 #25
It's quite possible that the jury still would've acquitted... Buckeye_Democrat Nov 2021 #27
out of those four people Skittles Nov 2021 #28
So did he say it or not? Kingofalldems Nov 2021 #22
Someone should ask the jurors NQAS Nov 2021 #16
Excellent post. Kingofalldems Nov 2021 #23
It's going to be Weepy Kyle Unchained for a few months. sop Nov 2021 #26
The boy ain't right! Mopar151 Nov 2021 #29
That's the CVS in Lindenhurst IL 7 minutes from where he lived in Antioch IL Bluethroughu Nov 2021 #30

Buckeye_Democrat

(14,856 posts)
3. Watch the judge get infuriated at the prosecutor...
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:14 PM
Nov 2021

... when he tried to bring up that fact in the case, after the 23-minute mark of this video.

Hav

(5,969 posts)
5. It was known that Rittenhouse made these remarks
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:20 PM
Nov 2021

There was a long pre-tiral discussion about exactly this topic and whether it should be allowed to be brought up during the trial. The judge tended against allowing it because he thought the situations were not similar enough (Rittenhouse wasn't armed and did nothing except calling the police) but he left it open for it to be decided during the trial. Then Binger took matter into his own hands and brought it up without notifying the judge about it. Of course, the judge had a meltdown. That was a deliberate fuck up by the prosecution.

Buckeye_Democrat

(14,856 posts)
14. I simply disagree with his ruling about propensity...
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:42 PM
Nov 2021

... because it's instead an indication of INTENT, which is generally allowed in criminal cases as I understand it.

Rittenhouse had the intent to kill when he showed up at that unlawful assembly with an AR-15.

Propensity is a different matter, tending to not be admissible. It implies that "the defendant did it before, so he obviously did it again in this case", which doesn't even apply to Rittenhouse unless he indeed killed some people previously that only him and his buddy-judge know about!

If trying to demonstrate intent is wrong in a trial, then we might as well stop arresting people who've made terrorist threats but who never actually carried them out at all.

I think it was badly mislabeled as propensity evidence, in other words.

Sympthsical

(9,108 posts)
4. The article is from three months ago.
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:18 PM
Nov 2021

This incident was addressed during the trial. The judge [said he was inclined to rule - edit] it inadmissible because it was propensity evidence. In fact, one of the times the judge blew up at the prosecutor is because the prosecutor was trying to get the information out in front of the jury after ruling it couldn't be allowed. [edit: Not a firm ruling, just that he was heavily against it, so the prosecutor needed to ask first before broaching it].

I think you should edit the OP with the date of the article prominently noted. It was written on August 20th.

People are going to read that first sentence and think it was just discovered after the verdict.

We don't need more misinformation than we already have about this.

Edit: You edited it. Thank you!

Sympthsical

(9,108 posts)
8. The criminal histories of the victims didn't come in either
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:29 PM
Nov 2021

And for similar reasons. It can be prejudicial and affects the jury perceptions of events.

Would you really want the jury to hear Rittenhouse was first chased by a convicted child rapist, hit with a skateboard by a violent domestic abuser, then had a gun pulled on him by a guy with a conviction for being armed while drunk?

Do you think that would have inclined the jury more favorably to convict of murder?

Propensity evidence is a thing, and there are reasons when it is disincluded.

Sympthsical

(9,108 posts)
11. He served his sentence
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:36 PM
Nov 2021

He was on probation for life. At the time of the shootings, he was out on bail for assault.

His life is an incredibly sad read.

tenderfoot

(8,438 posts)
15. So he wasn't rehabilitated, continued hurting children and got what he deserved.
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:43 PM
Nov 2021

That's impression I'm getting from the pro-Rittenhouse among us.

Sounds like Wisconsin cares more about one's second amendment rights more than it does about children. Which is really sad.

femmedem

(8,207 posts)
17. I don't believe there are any pro-Rittenhouse among us.
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 10:24 PM
Nov 2021

Someone can understand how the jury reached their decision--can even think they also would have found him not guilty--while still thinking Rittenhouse is an ignorant, dangerous young man and that the acquittal will embolden other ignorant, dangerous people.

tenderfoot

(8,438 posts)
18. Many people have commented on Rosenbaum's criminal history - many of those posts were hidden
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 10:31 PM
Nov 2021

fro CNN:

Joseph Rosenbaum

On the night of August 25, 2020, Kenosha's streets were filled with crowds protesting the police shooting of Jacob Blake, who was shot seven times in the back and side by a Kenosha police officer who said he was trying to detain him.

During those demonstrations, Rittenhouse clashed with a crowd gathered near a car dealership and Rosenbaum, who did not have a firearm, threw an object that appeared to be a plastic bag at him and missed, according to a criminal complaint filed last year.
Videos played at trial showed Rosenbaum throwing the plastic bag at Rittenhouse. His fiancée testified Rosenbaum had just be discharged from a hospital in Milwaukee and was carrying papers, socks, deodorant, a toothbrush and toothpaste in the bag. Rosenbaum had been discharged from the hospital after a suicide attempt, according to The Washington Post.

Kariann Swart, Rosenbaum's fiancée, testified they were both homeless when they met in 2019 and were living in a motel at the time Rosenbaum was killed.

"We just spent a lot of time talking, getting to know one another, and laughing and joking around. He was a very animated person like that," she said.

She said Rosenbaum was on an antidepressant and medication she said was used to treat his bipolar disorder.

Several clips played during the trial captured Rosenbaum briefly chasing Rittenhouse in a Car Source dealership before Rittenhouse fired four shots at him. Kenosha Police Detective Martin Howard testified one of the videos showed Rosenbaum hiding as Rittenhouse approached the lot and then Rosenbaum beginning to follow him.

Rosenbaum and Rittenhouse moved across the parking lot and appeared to be close to each other when loud bangs were suddenly heard and Rosenbaum fell to the ground, the complaint said. Dr. Douglas Kelley with the Milwaukee County Medical Examiner's Office testified Rittenhouse shot Rosenbaum four times -- twice in the front, once in the back and once along the side of his head, and determined the fatal shot to his back came as his body leaned forward.

As Rosenbaum lay on the ground, Rittenhouse made a call on his cellphone and said, "I just killed somebody" as he ran away, the complaint alleged.

Defense attorney Mark Richards argued in court Rittenhouse feared for his life when he fatally shot Rosenbaum, describing Rosenbaum as the aggressor. But prosecutor Thomas Binger said during closing arguments Rittenhouse provoked the shooting by pointing his weapon at Rosenbaum and should have continued to run away instead of shooting.

"When the defendant provokes this incident, he loses the right to self-defense," Binger said." You cannot claim self-defense against a danger you create."

Rittenhouse testified he knew Rosenbaum was unarmed when he ran at the teenager and said he pointed his rifle at Rosenbaum in an attempt to deter him, adding he knew pointing a rifle at someone is dangerous.

Rosenbaum had spent more than a decade in prison in Arizona after being convicted of sexual conduct with a minor.

"He wasn't down there as a rioter or a looter," Rosenbaum's fiancée previously told the Post in reference to August 25. "Why was he there? I have no answer. I ask myself that question every day."

 

Tomconroy

(7,611 posts)
10. Generally evidence of other crimes or bad acts is kept out as more
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:35 PM
Nov 2021

Prejudicial than probative. If the other crime is a 'signature' crime so it has unique characteristics that identify the defendant it can come in, particularly in sex assault cases.

Sympthsical

(9,108 posts)
12. Ahh, thank you for the clarification
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 09:39 PM
Nov 2021

My understanding of what the judge was saying to the prosecutor was, "Just because people say things doesn't mean they'll do things." Something in that vein.

ForgedCrank

(1,782 posts)
19. I get irritated a little when I see all the side arguments
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 10:32 PM
Nov 2021

regarding the behavioral history of anyone involved. I won't get into what I think of the guy who was convicted of molesting an underage child right here because it is irrelevant in the trial of Rittenhouse. The trial is about the defendant and his actions at that given time and place, not what unrelated acts a victim did the day or year before it happened. It would only be relevant if for example, Kyle Rittenhouse minor sister or cousin or something like that was the victim of the deceased. And regardless, none of those hypothetical conditions would warrant allowing someone to kill another human.
What Rittenhouse said about shooting shoplifters seems about as irrelevant as the victims criminal history. If he really was there to "shoot shoplifters", or looters, or anything like that, it was a rich target environment all night and he never did anything of that nature.
I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but I'm looking at it with all the honesty I can muster. It needs to be said that I'm most certainly not a Kyle Rittenhouse fan. In fact, he sounds like a real punk piece of shit based on some of the stuff I've seen about his character. I imagine the jury most likely saw things the same way, but were bound to the law and how it applies. I try to stay within the same realm of reason, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Buckeye_Democrat

(14,856 posts)
24. I thought it was relevant to demonstrate intent.
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 10:54 PM
Nov 2021

The judge mislabeled the comment about the shoplifters as propensity evidence, in my opinion. That's often deemed inadmissible, but evidence of intent tends to be allowed.

Suppose that I'm recorded telling someone that I'm going to shoot somebody at a bar because he insulted me, as I pick up a gun and drive there.

Then it just so happens that the same guy sees me and pursues me, until I finally turn around and shoot the guy FOUR times.

I'd think a jury might be curious to hear about my previous recorded comments. Instead, they only get to hear that the gun was brought to the bar solely for defensive purposes, and I only killed the guy who pursued me because he was chasing me and he MIGHT use my gun against me instead.

ForgedCrank

(1,782 posts)
25. I suppose that is
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 11:03 PM
Nov 2021

a valid point as well.
What i keep ignoring (not on purpose) is that I have hindsight of the actual events that transpired, and the trial information to work with. I already know how it ended, and that evidence appears irrelevant since he didn't really go on a wild shooting spree.
So I suppose based on that, and since we really don't know what KR's true intentions were in showing up there on that night, that could be a good argument for including that as evidence. I can definitely see that side of the argument just as valid in this instance.
I wasn't really viewing it from that perspective, so thanks. I like thinking things through like this, it helps keep me honest.

Buckeye_Democrat

(14,856 posts)
27. It's quite possible that the jury still would've acquitted...
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 11:11 PM
Nov 2021

... on all counts, but the judge not even allowing evidence of possible intent was shocking to me.

Not to mention the prosecutor was trying to use that evidence to show the jury that Rittenhouse's testimony should be questioned as dishonest -- e.g., saying in front of a jury that he knew killing for those reasons was illegal, yet demonstrating that he expressed a willingness to do just that before the incident.

NQAS

(10,749 posts)
16. Someone should ask the jurors
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 10:10 PM
Nov 2021

What they thinking their decision now that they have access to info the judge denied.

Or maybe they don’t care. Fascists gonna be fascists.

sop

(10,243 posts)
26. It's going to be Weepy Kyle Unchained for a few months.
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 11:09 PM
Nov 2021

Now that he's become the right's new mascot, Rittenhouse will be playing to his fan base, trying to "own the libs" at every opportunity. I suspect we're going to find out a lot more about Kyle's violent fantasies now that he's finally off the chain and immune from prosecution.

Bluethroughu

(5,185 posts)
30. That's the CVS in Lindenhurst IL 7 minutes from where he lived in Antioch IL
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 11:50 PM
Nov 2021

At the time.

He is a serial killer, and the GOP have hitched their cart to him. They need him close because he is going to screw up.

Very scary world because of this case.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Aug 2021: Kyle Rittenhous...