I Would Vote for AOC and I Would Vote for Joe Manchin.

[MineralMan]

Shocking? Not at all.

I think AOC is a disruptive force in the House and Joe Manchin is too conservative in the Senate. Here's the thing: If I lived in AOC's district, I'd vote for her in a NY minute in any November if she were on the ballot. If I lived in West Virginia, I'd vote for Joe Manchin if he were on the general election ballot. I'm a Democrat, and I know that no Republican will be on my side about any damned thing at all.

But, I don't live in either place, so I won't vote for either of them. I can't. Unless you live in their districts or states, neither can you.

As a lifelong Democrat, I vote in primary races for the candidate who best matches my positions on things. Then, in November, I vote for whichever Democratic candidate wins in the primary. EVERY LAST FREAKING TIME! And I always vote, no matter what.

For me, that's what it is to be a Democrat. I do not want any Republican to represent me in any elective office, so I always vote, and I always vote for the Democrat. I don't stay home in a fit of pique that my favorite candidate lost in the primary. That would be incredibly stupid of me to do.

VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS! If the Democrat loses, you get a Republican. So vote in every election and vote for the Democrats in every general election. How simple is that?

[Diamond_Dog]

1. Well said, and I agree 100%.

[Tomconroy]

2. Casey Stengel used to say when he managed the Mets:

Isn't there anybody here who can play this game?

Good to know that you can!

[Ocelot II]

3. Sometimes the only choice we have is

[Salviati]

5. I really hate this framing.

I don't think any of our Democratic members is evil. I don't think that the Democratic party is evil. Do they go as far as I would like? No. But this is not a dictatorship of me, we have to hammer out a way forward through negotiation with a lot of different parties, and we do the best that we can do.

Constant repetition out in the culture that the Democratic party is the 'lesser of two evils' is a way to depress turnout and make people more cynical about the whole process, which is not something we need right now.

[Ocelot II]

6. I was merely trying to inject a little humor; don't take it so damn seriously.

Also, while I don't think Joe Manchin is actually evil, he sometimes does and says things that are evil-adjacent.

[PTWB]

8. Manchin may not be pure evil but he definitely has evil tendencies.

Manchin tried to neuter and kill Joe Biden's signature initiatives because Manchin values the rich and the corporations over minorities and the needy. Is that not, at a minimum, evil-ish?

[TigressDem]

12. Not really how it was framed. Joe Manchin is NOT a Republican. He just acts like one.

REALLY where the change needs to happen is in WV where they CAN choose BETTER than Manchin and take back their party.

I remember Norm Coleman was a DINO. Elected to be Mayor of St Paul as a DFL Candidate he switched parties in 1996 to reflect his true nature and became a Republican.

It seems to me that Manchin is not being true to his Democratic party's need of him so he needs to be replaced by a better model. Not that he is "evil" but he isn't helpful and the DEMS of WV deserve better, that is for sure.

But the idea that ANY Democrat is better than having a full fledged Republican IS a bit flawed, but if it is full out whacko or someone who is a DINO, lesser of the two is the DINO.

[walkingman]

18. I'm not quite sure I understand your logic?

"But the idea that ANY Democrat is better than having a full fledged Republican IS a bit flawed, but if it is full out whacko or someone who is a DINO, lesser of the two is the DINO."

In today's political world, I cannot see a single redeeming quality in the Republican Party. I think there have been several Republicans in the distant past that had very redeeming qualities - but I simply do not know of any these days...none. Of late people like Liz Cheney has been elevated simply because she is not full fledged wacko - that is a very low standard but admittedly it has merit.

The idea that of "small government" spouted by today's GOP is merely a continuation of the "government is the problem" ideology by Ronald Reagan. Just think about the "values" they promote.

I do think that any Democrat is better than a "full fledged" Republican.

[TigressDem]

62. A flawed DEM MIGHT be open to pursuasion with logic. So lesser evil, but there IS an option C

The current Republican party is lockstep in goals I can not support, so like the OP - NO I could not vote against DEM for Repuke.

To defeat them we need a majority so nit picking on a DEM even if it's a raging flaw is self destructive.

And the reply to OP was reacting to that we have framed ourselves as the lesser of two evils when it's like the reich saying "both sides lie". We are speaking truth and facts and also aren't evil.

BUT there was also an option C - find a better DEM and that was what I felt was part of the framework that wasn't acknowledged.

Vote together, but the people in the district are responsible to step up and find a better option than DEMS that are DINO and lockstep with the rePukes against US.

Is that more clear?

[walkingman]

63. I understand and agree - thanks!!

[comradebillyboy]

4. Yes indeed. nt

[bigtree]

7. I'd primary Manchin first

...if he won, I'd vote him in.

I don't believe any significant number of Democrats believe otherwise, so this is just common sense.

Btw, there's ZERO indication that recalcitrant Dem voters were to blame for any of the recent losses, and we showed up in numbers that will be hard to match in any future election in the presidential race.

The whole argument, putting support for Manchin at the center of it, who isn't up for several years, is just nonsense framing. It's a canard.

[brooklynite]

11. Here's the difference between me and the OP...

I’ll vote for the Primary candidate who best matches my political philosophy IF AND ONLY IF that candidate is electable in the General. I can’t visualize any Primary opponent for Manchin who could beat the Republican nominee.

[MineralMan]

14. Good point. I don't vote for obvious losers in primary races.

That trick never works.

[Beartracks]

25. True. Sometimes you gotta play a bit more of the big-picture "long game." n/t

[bigtree]

27. here's the rub

...there's a Democratic party org in WVa. which isn't shy about standing up to Manchin in defense of Democratic progressive initiatives.

That opposition should be encouraged, but some folks can't reason beyond a midterm almost 50 weeks away, much less consider using this time between Manchin's election contests (3 years away?) to organize behind what our party is busy working to advance.

Instead, all we get from some is this insistence that Manchin must be coddled like he's facing the midterms, instead of our party itself on the line.

[Polybius]

41. Here in Red Staten Island we nominated a nice moderate Democrat for Borough President

He was still soundly defeated by Vito Fossella of all people.

[brooklynite]

50. And a nice AOC-type progressive would have lost by even more...

[Polybius]

51. Oh, I'm not arguing that

But sometimes I don't know what it takes to win here. It's frustrating. Not sure if you know Fossella but he was busted for drunk driving on his way to (or from) his secret girlfriend while he was married.

[electric_blue68]

66. Hmm that name (Vito F) sounds familiar...

"Way up" here up north in da Bronx

Is the more northern section of Staten Is less conservative in the past 10 -15 years while the southern 2/3rds are Conservative and worse?

[Polybius]

71. The North Shore is more liberal, but still mostly more conservative than the rest of NYC

The South Shore has gotten much more Red. Trump signs were everywhere in 2020 here.

[electric_blue68]

73. Oh, joy, what "fun". ty

[gab13by13]

9. Democratic legislation seems to get passed in the House,

even with (disruptive) AOC. Not so much in the Senate.

I have no problem with Democrats having vigorous debates on issues and then coming together when it's time to vote.

A disruptive Democrat was Joe Lieberman, he cost us the public option.

[MineralMan]

13. He also was partly responsible for Gore's loss in 2000.

A terrible choice as a VP nominee, it seemed to me at the time, and still does.

Of course, I still voted for the ticket.

[gab13by13]

23. I proudly voted for McGovern

[electric_blue68]

67. McGovern was my first Presidential vote ..

We had one of the last great rallies for him in Manhattan mid town.

My first vote I'm proud to say was the year before - 1971 when I was among the first wave of 18 y/o voters!

[Polybius]

45. Lieberman wasn't quite as bad in 2000, was he?

A couple of years later though, he went way Right.

[MineralMan]

48. That depends on how closely you looked at him.

Nobody looked very closely in 2000, but I saw his selection as the VP nominee as a big mistake. I have never liked Lieberman.

[electric_blue68]

68. I wasn't thrilled either.... 😑

[Tomconroy]

17. Most of the time you need 60 votes in the Senate.

[bottomofthehill]

10. I would walk through rain, sleet and snow for Manchin

He needs every vote to hold a seat in VERY REPUBLICAN West Virginia, I would cross the street to AOC. Her seat is a given.

[48656c6c6f20]

15. I'd vote for AOC

And work my butt off to find a (D) Democrat to replace (d) Joe Manshon.

[MineralMan]

16. I'd do that, too, if I lived in West Virginia.

I don't.

[DENVERPOPS]

53. Agree totally

Anyone who would vote for "Manshon" with the track record he has as a Supreme DINO....
They should primary the hell out of him and try to get a true Dem in there.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

19. I would also vote the Democratic Candidate in either of these races

[jcmaine72]

20. Perhaps I'm a pinch too idealistic for my own good, but....

That (D) has to mean something. I don't view politics as a team sport. I'm not just rooting for a uniform. I want to vote for politicians who share my beliefs and values.

AOC shares my beliefs.
Manchin doesn't.

Should I just lie to myself and say that doesn't mean anything me because he's wearing the right jersey? The day I find myself doing that is the day I stop voting for anyone.

[MineralMan]

21. Manchin's D meanst that Mitch McConnell isn't Majority Leader

in the Senate. If you don't see the value of that, then you're not paying attention.

Watch. Manchin and Sinema will vote for the BBB bill, in the end.

[Tomconroy]

24. Joe Manchin has said that in principal he supports a

1.75 trillion dollar BBB and prefers to pay for it by raising taxes on the wealthy. I missed where any Republican has said that.

[MineralMan]

30. You are correct. No Republican Senator will vote for the BBB.

If Mitch McConnell were still Majority Leader, it would never even come to the floor for a vote.

There might be some changes to the bill and a conference committee, but it will pass in the end. The House will vote for the bill again after any conference changes are made.

We will have the bill for President Biden to sign. Progress, instead of stonewalling. I'm confident of that.

[jcmaine72]

28. And what good does that do when....

Manchin crosses the aisle whenever it is the politically expedient thing for him to do?

Trust me, I have been paying attention.

Hopefully Manchin and Sinema won't disappoint. And even if they do....what the hey? Who needs to actually believe in something? They're on our team, right? I'm sure they'll do better next year, or the year after that, or the one after that...

[MineralMan]

32. Who is Senate Majority Leader? Mitch McConnell?

No? I rest my case.

[jcmaine72]

35. What case is there to rest?

In your OP, you stated that you would vote for AOC and Manchin.

I merely replied that I only vote for people (like AOC) who share my beliefs, and that I don't believe that Manchin does. I also asserted my belief that I don't view politics as a team sport.

This is where you and I obviously differ.

Never the twain shall meet, and all that...

[MineralMan]

36. Do you live in West Virginia?

[jcmaine72]

37. One last time:

I only vote for people who share my beliefs. Your political tastes and tolerances are more, let's say, wide ranging than mine. Not judging....

...Your opinion, my opinion...

And you know what they say about opinions?

[Beartracks]

29. Yes! Even a DINO's (D) counts toward a Dem majority and control of the legislative agenda.

[electric_blue68]

70. +1000000

[crud]

22. Voting as a strategy

Is something that black voters have done forever. They vote for the person who is closest to their values WHO HAS A CHANCE OF WINNING. Even when there were black candidates in the primary, Joe Bidden won with the black vote. It is basic movement politics. After they are elected, hold them accountable, and try to move their positions closer to what you want.

The lesser-of-two-evils argument or the both-sides-are-the-same argument are meant to depress the vote, a form of voter suppression.

When my friends or relatives express those opinions about politics, I plainly tell them there are 2 sides we can choose from, on one side we have proud boys and the KKK, on the other side we have teachers and unions, which side do you want to be on?

[MineralMan]

33. Yes. Exactly!

[calimary]

26. I DON'T vote for Republicans. I simply can't.

Period. And as long as they remain anti-choice, I can’t even consider voting for them. They are simply and totally OFF-the-table. For me, that is an absolute.

[MineralMan]

34. Nor do I, and I never miss an election.

Politics is a process. It's not a smooth process, but it is a process.

[AdamGG]

31. I voted for McCain in the primary over George Bush in 2000

McCain, as President, would have been way better than Bush and Al Gore vs. Bill Bradley was a wash for me - liked them both. (Massachusetts is an open primary state).

I agree with you, though, Manchin is the best thing we're going to get out of WV and I like AOC. i wish times were less polarized, with reasonable Eisonhower Republicans that made an occasional ticket switch not a ridiculous thing, but at this point, straight Democratic party vote is the only sane choice.

[Richard58]

38. I would never vote for a Republican.

They're all totally fascist. But I have mixed feeling about DINO's like Manchin. He's basically a Republican and he is screwing over Biden's agenda. So what good is he if he won't for for Democratic policies? I'd be tempted to vote 3rd party if it came to a choice between him and a Republican. And as for AOC I think it is unfair to say she is "disruptive". She is true to her progressive principles and takes stands against watering down legislation meant to help the people. And if that is being "disruptive" then I am all for it!

[Polybius]

39. How about if it was only AOC vs. Manchin?

Who gets your vote?

[MineralMan]

42. AOC would get my vote, but that will never happen.

They run in two completely different worlds. I live in neither of those worlds.

You ask about a hypothetical race that would never occur. In fact, I cannot imagine any place where the two would ever be on the ballot together.

In a primary? No. In a primary, I would probably vote for a candidate different than either of them. I'm talking about a general election. In primaries, as I said in the OP, I vote for the candidate who best represents my positions, unless that candidate has no chance of becoming the nominee of the party.

[Polybius]

47. I was talking about in a primary with them being the only one's left running

I'd pick AOC too, unless I lived in a Red state. Then I'd pick Manchin. No way can AOC win statewide in, let's say, Alabama.

[MineralMan]

49. Yes, it's always situational, isn't it.

Every race in Congress is a local election. Every candidate wins or loses in their own state or district. Where you run is at least as important as the ideas you run on. If the two don't match, you lose.

[Tomconroy]

64. It sort of depends on what state they are running. AOC isn't

Winning in WV.

[Progressive Jones]

43. AOC nt

[Kaleva]

58. What state would this hypothetical match take place in and for what office?

[Progressive Jones]

40. AOC certainly shakes it up, but I gotta say that I agree with her more than

a lot of people seem to. She would always get my vote.

Manchin, like him or not, has been a reliable Dem, when there is actually something being voted on in the Senate. I think that in some ways he's a trouble maker. I see him as a grandstander and wannabe power broker, but like the OP says, he's a Democrat.

I will never, ever vote for anyone other than a Democrat. I voted for a very moderate GOP Gov. here in IL once, and he turned out to be a crook who went to prison. I also supported Jim Thompson when he was Gov. He was an R, but as moderate as can be. He was popular here. That's it. No more R votes, forever.

[MineralMan]

46. I don't disagree with her positions on issues.

I disagree with her methods in the House. I disagree with Manchin on many positions, and I think he's often grandstanding when he holds things up unnecessarily. I still believe he will vote for the BBB in the Senate. He's just being a dick about it and trying to gain more leverage. I don't like that attitude in politicians. In some ways, AOC and Manchin are very similar in their approach to being members of their house of Congress. I find both very annoying at times, but they're both Democrats, in the end.

[Tomconroy]

65. Manchin has said he doesn't want to spend a lot of money on new social

Programs because he wants the finances of social security and medicare shored up. You might not agree with his priorities but the finances of SS and medicare do need to be addressed.

[Joinfortmill]

44. Amen. Say it again!

[PatrickforB]

52. Yep. Me too.

[Ocelot II]

54. Where I live, Minnesota's 5th Congressional district, any Democrat with a pulse

is almost guaranteed to win the general election, so all the action is in the primary election. I don't especially like Ilhan Omar because she seems to have little talent for actual politics, judging by the way she doesn't seem to understand when she shoots herself in the foot with her own comments. She's divisive and controversial when she doesn't need to be. Last primary I seriously considered voting for her main opponent, but when his campaign or some PAC supporting him came out with some really sleazy and dishonest advertising I decided to give Omar another chance - though considering her vote against the infrastructure bill, maybe I shouldn't have. (The other guy would have won the general election, too, since GOPers are political lepers here, and maybe he wouldn't have been so eager to grandstand and make dumb statements.) But if this had been a more purple district I'd have voted in the primary for whichever candidate had a better chance of beating the GOP candidate, and that probably wouldn't have been Omar. I will always vote strategically in order to defeat Republicans. If I lived in WVA I'd hold my nose and vote for Manchin.

[msongs]

55. repubs nationwide are busy putting a stop to all this vote for democrats business nt

[MineralMan]

59. So, maybe we'd better pass things while we can?

Or maybe we can regroup as Democrats and stun everyone with a massive turnout in 2022 and 2024?

I vote for doing those two things. In the meantime, let's militate to get the BBB through the Senate. What do you say?

[msongs]

60. I say election reform is more important than BBB and should get priority although

without saboteurs we could have both

[MineralMan]

61. I think we'll get election reform done, too, but it will take killing the filibuster.

I think we can do that, but the priority right now is the BBB. Then, we can move on to a filibuster fight, which I think we will win in the end. That's going to take some time, though. Right now, they're doing what's needful at the moment and using momentum to get the BBB through the Senate.

[BlueJac]

56. I would vote for AOC and would have to hold my nose to vote for Manchin

AOE is part of the future and Manchin is part of the old guard that has his pockets full of lobbyists cash!

[Kaleva]

57. The second D to represent my district since the Great Depression was hated here at DU by many.

Bart Stupak

The 1st Dem lasted all of 1 term. '65-'67.

[BlueIdaho]

72. Every Democrat is better than any Republican. Period. nt.