BAMM!! Sotomayor--"How is your view anything but a religious view?"

[mysteryowl]

The root of the abortion issue is religion. She rooted it out and asked. The attorney had no answer.
Nice!

[Wounded Bear]

1. About time someone brought that up...

they try to deny it, but the real impetus for anti-abortion comes from Evangelicals.

[JohnSJ]

2. Not just Evangelicals. Remember those bishops who did not want President Biden to

receive communion because of his position on choice?

[Wounded Bear]

3. Even after the Pope overruled them...nt

[superpatriotman]

5. Too many Catholics on the SC

To be representative of our country

[OMGWTF]

42. THIS!!! THIS!!! THIS!!!

[crickets]

53. 👆👆👆👆👆👆

[OneCrazyDiamond]

64. Ironically, Associate Justice Sotomayor is Catholic n/t

[jaxexpat]

67. Oh and so claims the president......

Agnosticism, apparently, like bacteria and stuff, shows up at the oddest times. Even among "true" believers.

[JohnSJ]

8. yup

[UTUSN]

29. But the bishops have large autonomy, can't be completely over-ruled by the Pope

[Progressive Jones]

78. They have no authority except over the minds of their flock. nt

[UTUSN]

79. That's it, jurisdiction in their bishoprics and their bishop policy councils

[Progressive Jones]

81. Despite my Catholic school upbringing, I'd never heard the word "bishopric" before.

Had to look it up. A synonym of Diocese.

[UTUSN]

82. So nothing incorrect

[Progressive Jones]

84. Nope. Just an observation. nt

[unblock]

9. which was ridiculous, because afaik, he's only talked about legality, not the morality of abortion

it's entirely possible for someone to think something is immoral but also think the government shouldn't ban it.

for instance, adultery is entirely legal (maybe some consequences in a divorce in some states, but in and of itself, legal), but most people would agree it's not moral.

somewhat similarly for abortion; many people support choice in that the government shouldn't ban it, but also think a woman should do whatever she can to keep the child (often allowing exceptions for rape/incent and sufficiently dangerous pregnancies).

again, it's not inconsistent to believe that abortion is (generally) a sin, yet the government should allow it.

afaik, biden has only talked about his view of what government should do about abortion, i don't know if he's ever said it's not immoral for a woman to choose one.


so it's really a stretch to say that that's so completely inconsistent with the church that he should be denied communion or otherwise religiously punished.

but of course, we know that....

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

33. Those Catholics who say that Biden should be denied communion

Say that since Biden does not condemn abortion in all cases and actively work for making it illegal everywhere in the country, he is a heretic. Of course, most of the ones I have come across so egregiously misstate Biden's position as to lie about it. To them, abortion is morally wrong, but apparently lying is acceptable.

Augustine of Hippo (354-430) wrote an essay, Contra Mendacium -- "Against Lying", in which he considered whether it was morally acceptable to lie in furtherance of a good cause. He said that it wasn't, for three reasons. First, lying is itself a sin, and as the Apostle Paul says, "Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it?" (Romans 6:1-3) Second, lying dishonors both God and the liar. Third, when the person who is lied to discovers the lie, he will doubt the goodness of the cause itself. After all, how good can something be if one stoops to lying in order to support it?

[kskiska]

60. They pulled that on John Kerry, too.

He was divorced.

[NullTuples]

75. Yet Trump was just fine b/c he could be used to stuff the Supreme Court

[ShazzieB]

59. Agreed, about how religion can lead to bellicosity.

Religion is what makes people so passionate that they stand outside abortion clinics to harass the people going inside and make draconian laws to control what pregnant people can do with their bodies. Religion is the excuse used by those who bomb abortion clinics, murder abortion providers, and dox abortion clinic staff. Religion-based zealotry is why people set up fake "problem pregnancy" clinics where they then lie to pregnant women about the supposed "dangers" of abortion and try to convince them not to have one.

Not ALL religion leads to this, but a certain type of religion does, and that type of religion lies at the bottom of all of these things. Without the religious element, "pro life" could still exist as an intellectual stance, but it would never lead to the kind of craziness we are all too familiar with.

It's high time for the forced birthers to be forced to admit their REAL motivations AND face the facts that 1) there are lots and lots of people, religious and otherwise, who don't share their beliefs, and 2) our constitution does NOT give them the right to impose their beliefs on everyone else,

Personally, I see a BOOM in mail order medications for medical abortions if these bans arent tossed. And that may even INCREASE the total number every year since you can do it in the privacy of your own home.

Not only could this increase the total number of pregnancies that are terminated; it would make it well-nigh impossible to know the actual number. That is concerning for many reasons, not the least of which is the mental image of Republican lawmakers patting themselves on the back for supposedly low abortion rates that are actually not low at all.

[malaise]

27. Well they have to find kids to abuse

so there's that

[NullTuples]

73. Those would be the same American Bishops who...

...wrote &/or abide by the 'Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care'. It's the document they use to run Catholic owned or partnered hospitals. Which by the way comprise one in six beds in the USA.

Specifically the Bishops who make such decisions for a hospital - according to their rules - must not allow a Administrator to allow doctors to chemically induce an abortion using drugs. They must wait to intervene until the pregnant person's life is at stake. At that point often the only choice is to remove the affected ovary and Fallopian tube - if they can do so in time.

According to Catholic theology and the Directives mentioned above, it's their belief that anyone in a position of power who does not stop someone else from committing a violation ( aka, a "sin" ) is effectively guilty of that violation themselves and it counts against them in the belief system's judging of the person in their version of an afterlife.

[maxsolomon]

14. The RCC is vehemently Anti-Choice.

The American RCC is particularly strident.

My cousins had their kids indoctrinated with Pro-Life extracurricular activities the entire time they were in school. It's not just Fundies.

[mysteryowl]

16. I do believe religion is the root and public opinion sticks from there.

[maxsolomon]

21. Morality is usually guided by religion.

Christian religions have (largely) made a binary choice regarding Abortion: life begins at conception.

Any argument against that means embracing gray areas, nuance. Fundamentalist faith cannot abide ambiguity. Certainty is what gives its adherents comfort.

God said it, I believe it, and that settles it!

[elleng]

30. Morality is not guided by religion, but by the best of human nature.

Sadly 'the best' is not as common as it once was.

[maxsolomon]

35. I'm confused. You're saying religious beliefs do not guide morality?

Or that morality should transcend religion belief?

The Anti-choice Movement believes it has the moral high ground, no?

[elleng]

37. Yes, I am saying religious beliefs do not guide morality.

I don't care what the 'Anti-choice Movement' believes.

[atreides1]

95. It's not that confusing

The Anti-Choice Movement are more guided by what they are told, because blind obedience is a basic requirement of religious belief...and morality is not based on blind obedience!

The Catholic church denounces abortion and yet remained quiet on priests molesting children, for years!!!

[Hortensis]

45. :) Thanks, Elleng. Moral codes and religion come from human nature,

and both are shaped by human nature interacting with environment, including extremely strong geographic influences on culture/religion.

Turns out some people don't have a moral core strong enough to guide them, or to be noticed at all apparently. However, probably some just don't realize they have because they're told god directs them and don't question it.

There's also such a thing as moral "intelligence," just like degrees of math intelligence. Not everyone is capable of understanding even simple moral issues on their own, like those who elevate loyalty above everything else and are lead down bad paths by it.

[elleng]

47. THANKS, Hortensis.

[Kath2]

70. Indeed.

I work for a Catholic nuns' retreat and spiritual center as a kitchen and grounds worker. Most of the sisters have Biden/Harris bumper stickers on their cars. And, having spoken to many of them, they believe abortion is a personal decision and should be legal and safe.

[Hortensis]

72. How interesting and nice to read, thanks. Sisters. :)

Also suggestion of how some might feel about the ideology of the conservative Catholics on the Supreme Court.

It sounds like a lovely place to work. Once upon a time work, paid and volunteer, allowed me to view different institutions from the inside, and I really enjoyed those opportunities.

[Kath2]

74. It really is a wonderful place to work.

And, a happy shock to me, the sisters really are very liberal and very much pro-choice.

[Hortensis]

88. :) An image-blower for some for sure. I'm not surprised that some

are liberal, of course, but what you describe is more than I would have assumed. Speculating that perhaps many at your retreat belong to orders that work outside monasteries with charitable works and "liberal" causes.

[Kath2]

89. That is the case.

Exactly.

[Hortensis]

92. Ah! Lives well lived.

[Kath2]

103. Very much so.

I was very pleasantly surprised to find how ultra-liberal most of them are.

[Kath2]

105. I was just remembering.

I went to Loyola College in Baltimore. The College of Notre Dame was right next to it. The sisters of Notre Dame were so very cool. They were beyond liberal. This was 1981 and they were all in for gay rights, abortion access and racial equality. I had a significant other who went to school there and we were friends with the sisters.

[Hortensis]

106. "so very cool sisters" :) I wish more people could read

this and maybe enjoy the thought. A girl in high school had been accepted into an order in France, the name unfortunately long lost. I was fascinated when she told us but didn't know her well enough, or anything at all Catholic, to ask anything meaningful. But many times over the years I've remembered her and wondered about the kind of order and the life she's been having. Like now.

[pazzyanne]

68. Exactly! nt

[Act_of_Reparation]

90. If morality was innate, we wouldn't need ethics.

[lastlib]

52. Arthur C. Clarke (one of my favorite and most quotable thinkers):

"The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion."

[Hortensis]

54. :) Religion can't take morality from people who have it, though.

Contrary to Clarke's thought, I'd say a huge problem in America today is that almost the ONLY formal moral teachings come from religion and that many religious denominations that once offered competent moral guidance have themselves been hijacked by amoral/immoral influences for the purpose of corrupting their own precepts.

That leaves people to the guidance of their own moral cores, of enormously varying quality, and to such leached out advice and feedback as they can get from family and friends -- and social media. Clarke probably (?) didn't get to see the social media dwellers who can be counted on to facilely (but horribly sincerely!) advise people to just abandon parents who become problematic. Though no doubt he could have predicted them.

[maxsolomon]

56. I guess I'm confusing Ethics and Morality

nice quote

[Progressive Jones]

86. It must suck for them to be so simple minded, and fraudulent. nt

[kiri]

31. US law trumps church 'courts'

Recall that in the catholic clergy sex scandals, the RCC church claimed that priests, bishops, et al, must be tried in the Canonical Courts (i.e., church 'courts' where bishops and cardinals were the judges), and that US secular laws were invalid for the church.

To the credit of the federal judiciary, they rejected this theocratic argument entirely.

[NullTuples]

76. And yet in a practical sense we rarely see them prosecuted or the Church for hiding them.

[Progressive Jones]

80. Catholics were the main group against abortion before even the Fundies.

The Fundies were pulled in by the GOP on the abortion issue to get votes.

[Caliman73]

28. I would attribute it more to Conservative and fundamentalist Christians and others...

Evangelicals tend to be more conservative, but there is a broader swath of Conservative Christians that include Catholics, who are generally not Evangelicals. A priority for Conservative Catholics, aside from making abortion illegal, is undoing most, if not all of the changes that were made to the Catholic Church by Vatican II. Ratzinger AKA Benedict XVI was a hardcore conservative. He was second in charge during the papacy of John Paul II and responsible for the backslide from a social justice ideal to strict doctrine.

For most Conservative religious people, from any faith tradition, the issue is control more than it is the "blessings of faith" and social justice.

[azureblue]

48. and they ognore what the Bible says

The Bible, in several places, says that life begins "At first breath". Remind them of that.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

63. And Catholics.

I wonder how most muslims think about this topic.

[Tommymac]

4. Religion is the Elephant in the Roe v Wade Room.

About time someone in Power who cannot be ignored called the obvious out.

[kiri]

23. The Constitution never mentions a god; the Bible never mentions democracy nor freedoms

Note: there is nothing in the Bible that supports democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of anything, not even voting. Nor any science.

There is nothing in the Constitution that supports Bibles, commandments, neither does it mention any god/divine providence, etc. The oath does NOT have the words "so help me god".

We are not a "nation under god." If you look at a map, we are actually under Canada.

[atreides1]

32. True

And upon further examination...you can safely assume that any Democracy is diametrically opposed to the Bible in all of its versions!

[LaMouffette]

38. "If you look at a map, we are actually under Canada." Good one!

[OneCrazyDiamond]

61. We are not a "nation under god." If you look at a map, we are actually under Canada.

Only if you use the maps with the northern hemisphere up. There is no good reason, other than a historical superiority complex, to think of North as being the top of the world.

[Evolve Dammit]

77. the "under God" thing was added in the mid 1900's

[gab13by13]

6. The majority of the SC are Catholics.

[HubertHeaver]

10. And may the Pope ex-communicate them.

[JHB]

11. More to the point, the right wing of it is conservative/RW Catholics groomed for the job

That's a bigger factor than simply the Catholic part.

[maxsolomon]

12. Their religion should be irrelevant, and they know it.

But it is definitely relevant.

I say that as a Post-Catholic.

[AllaN01Bear]

7. sputter sputt sput . bob and weave . purrfect.

[DownriverDem]

13. Will it matter?

Sadly no. They have the votes.

[kcr]

15. I think you're right

I'm not holding out much hope.

[BeckyDem]

17. She is awesome, just state it!

[Alexander Of Assyria]

18. A pertinent question the honorable justice might also pose to certain of her fellow justices?

Kind sir, a link to the exchange you have noted?

[MOMFUDSKI]

19. Somehow

'we the people' just isn't working out for we the women. Happy to see Sotomayor AND Breyer let Kav the beerbonger know just how stupid he is.

[cbabe]

20. If they rule in favor of religion, would the ruling itself be illegal?

[maxsolomon]

22. The law is what they say it is.

Welcome to DU.

[cbabe]

25. Ummm. Church of Satan made abortion one of their sacraments.

How does separation of church and state wiggle around that?

Thanks for the welcome. I’ve been posting a bit for a while. My covid isolation/entertainment. Happy palindrome days.

[maxsolomon]

26. It doesn't. Church and State separation is what the SCOTUS says it is.

Church of Satan is so marginal that it will be ignored. Christianity is always the exception, because it's the air America breathes.

[mysteryowl]

24. great question and awarness

[oldsoftie]

34. Religion is SOME peoples excuse. But you can make the "pro life" argument without religion.

I mean, it is a fact that there is "life" inside the woman. Its a fact that at some point that life can live outside the woman. Religion has nothing to do with that. But religion CAN make the person more bellicose about their position. MOST people wouldnt support a ban early on. But those numbers drop the longer the term gets. Very few people support a later term abortion. I doubt many of those are using a religious argument. Personally, I see a BOOM in mail order medications for medical abortions if these bans arent tossed. And that may even INCREASE the total number every year since you can do it in the privacy of your own home. And too many medications can be used for that to be the NEXT ban attempt.

[gab13by13]

36. Fascists will come,

waving the flag and carrying a bible.

[Zen Democrat]

39. Don't ever call them "Pro-Life" because they are simply "Anti-Abortion"

They don't care and feed the borne babies.

They are pro-death penalty

They are NOT pro-life.

[liberal N proud]

40. Nice!

[Jon King]

41. Right wingers are doing exactly what they said they would do, abortion, steal election in 2024.....

No mystery here, these people are exactly as advertised. White supremacy, take away women's rights, take away voting rights for people of color, put their religion into schools, ignore climate change, ignore gun violence, install Trump as dictator in 2024.

Absolutely nothing they do is a surprise, they do what they say they will do.

[Martin Eden]

43. In which sermon did Jesus preach against abortion?

And was that as prominent in his teachings as helping the sick & poor, welcoming the stranger, and why it's easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the gates of heaven?

[Act_of_Reparation]

91. Does it matter?

The Bible doesn't define a religion. The religion's adherents do.

[Martin Eden]

93. My point is they are hypocrires

And I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't preach against abortion.

[Act_of_Reparation]

97. They are hypocrites insofar as they don't practice what they preach.

In which case, sure: I'd bet a fair number of them are hypocrites.

But there's no Platonic Ideal of Christianity floating around the Realm of Forms, and what Jesus preached is irrelevant. He doesn't get to define what Christianity is. Christians do. And this is what they've apparently decided to do with the religion.

[Martin Eden]

100. "What Jesus preached is irrelevant"

Can we get today's so-called "Christians" to put that on their masthead?

Without any adherence to the Realm of Forms, words are fungible to the point of losing their meaning.

[bucolic_frolic]

44. And the answer is

it's not a religious view when we want you to conform to our religious beliefs for you, but it is a religious view if you want to have your own religious views that don't match what we want politically for you.

[Delmette2.0]

57. Excellent answer.

[FakeNoose]

46. The Catholic Church has been anti-abortion and anti-contraceptives

... for as long as there has been such a thing.

Long before it was a political issue for the conservatives to get worked up over, the Catholic church has been anti-choice. They call themselves "pro-life" but really it's anti-choice. They believe that no woman has the right to choose whether she will give birth.

I believe the GOP was courting the Catholic vote (as well as Evangelical/extreme-right Christians) when they suddenly saw the light and became anti-choice during the 1970's.

Yes it is a religious issue and it always has been. No matter how they try to obfuscate, this is religious. Needless to say, not all Catholics believe this way, there are many Catholics (practicing and lapsed) who are pro-choice.

[soldierant]

50. The Catholic church has indeed been anti-abortion longer than Evangelicals

(and anti-contraception forever), but I think it was only in the 19th century that abrtion became such a hot topic for it I'm going from memory, so I could be wrong, of course but it weems to me there was one particular encyclical that turned it into a hot button issue.

[atreides1]

94. Right

With the exception of a three-year period 1588–1591, early abortion was not prohibited by Catholic canon law until 1869!

[soldierant]

102. Thanks - and -

my goodness - what happened in 1588?

[BSdetect]

49. I'd ask the same for SCOTUS members. Recuse yourself. As if they would.

[Hortensis]

51. I'm shocked that so many deny that ultimately TWO lives are involved.

That's not merely dishonest. When there are two lives, two people, is not only an issue for religious people but must be considered by all with even a shred of humanity. Atrocities occur when those who don't and won't have the power.

When I first met my doofus young husband, he sounded like a lot of people here, parroting the usual right to abortion mantras, assuming thoughtlessly that meant until birth there's only one person to be considered. So I asked him at what stage before birth it was still okay for a mother who'd changed her mind to abort an unwanted "pregnancy." In labor but before anything sticks out? Would after delivery of the head but before the rest of the body be "before birth"? Or must the entire body be delivered to be a person? How about when the baby first cries in distress and thus has a voice for the first time?

Thinking it out just a bit replaced his facile depravity with perhaps humanity's greatest conundrum.

The huge question all disagreement and all decisions must hinge on: When does one person become TWO people endowed with equal rights to life?

Religion comes up with religious answers, secularism and science secular answers. I believe profoundly in separation of church and state and that all laws should ultimately be based on the highest standard of secular reasoning we can bring to the issue, but that causes great distress to many millions whose beliefs cannot allow them to accept it. Fwiw, I don't mistake those, both religious and nonreligious, who are genuinely "pro life," for the hypocrites who merely think they are in order to dismiss them all as beneath contempt.

[haele]

55. The question then can be asked "does any state have...

...the right to require every female in the state to subscribe to a particular religious "legal" tenet whether or not they are a member of that religion.
Basically should it be constitutional that a gender-specific medical procedure is to be regulated by law under a majority in a legislature per their specifically held church-based religious doctrine? Should a the religious beliefs of a group of lawmakers or otherwise non-impacted people impact the self-determination and medical rights of every woman in that state regardless of her own personal religion.

Haele

[bucolic_frolic]

58. You mean they want FreeDumb from vaccines, but not Freedom of Choice on abortion?

I never would have guessed it

[smirkymonkey]

85. That whole "freedom from vaccines" and "our bodies our choices w/ regard to vaccination, was nothing

but one big right wing Troll Fest. I have always hated them, but I hate them even more for that.

[ShazzieB]

62. Well stated.

I especially like the last sentence:

Should a the religious beliefs of a group of lawmakers or otherwise non-impacted people impact the self-determination and medical rights of every woman in that state regardless of her own personal religion.

I would add "or the lack thereof" to the end of this. Otherwise, it's just about perfect.

[AverageOldGuy]

65. Makes no difference.

Roe is dead.

To be followed by any number of progressive policies and laws.

[dugog55]

66. This post does not concern abortion entirely, but at the 3:30 mark, Alan Shore

makes a point that directly concerns the abortion issue. And while this is a TV show, Shore makes some very valid observations about our Supreme Court. They did a good job getting look-alike actors too.

&t=10s

[Skittles]

69. it is all sanctimonious bullshit

digusting

[Scrivener7]

71. It won't matter. But it's good to have it on the record.

[NowISeetheLight]

83. It's against the Constitution

Enacting a law or making a decision based on a religious belief is government establishing a religion. Period.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

[haele]

101. Unfortunately, evangelicals will tell you that means Only Congress....

...and the States that the right to impose religious bias on their citizenry if they choose to do so.
It's not correct because further Amendments address that very situation, but they'll still claim it. Just as the more rabid gunner types will claim the 2nd protects anyone having any type or number of weapons without regulation, and any number of "Sovereign Citizens" will claim that any law that is not directly identified in the original Constitution does not apply to them.

Haele

[Martin68]

87. Right on the money!

[ancianita]

96. Her rightness and a bus token will get her across town. Dudes will stilll triple and quadruple down

on religious belief as law.

[empedocles]

98. Among several Catholics that I know, abortion is a pat answer for their rw votes.

A righteous excuse for their rw across the board beliefs.

[This firm anti-abortion belief seems to disappear when their family, etc. is involved]

[ancianita]

99. Raised Catholic, I'm not surprised.

If only Christians paid more attention to Jesus' Second Great Commandment.

[empedocles]

104. I was also 'raised' Catholic. Lean more to Catholic apostate now.