Men of DU: What are YOU going to do for women, once we drop to third class citizens?

[Coventina]

Yes, I am putting you on the spot.

Is it fair? I don't know, and frankly, I don't care.

We women, already second class citizens in this country, are about to lose autonomy over our bodies.

So what are you going to do about it?

I want to know, because our personhood is being taken away, even though we have insisted on it.

And don't give my any business about how a woman might be involved, this is coming from a patriarchal mentality and religion. So don't try using her as a dodge.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?!?!?!

[bullwinkle428]

1. I'm already a regular donor to Planned Parenthood, but I would absolutely

donate to affiliated organizations that would provide funding to allow women without the necessary means to travel to states where the procedure remains legal.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. Those organizations currently exist, so you can donate now if you wish.

[Bev54]

77. How about pushing your congress to decriminalize abortion period.

Do like Canada, have no abortion law, it is not criminal at all, it is a medical decision period. Get it the hell out of the courts at all.

[KS Toronado]

111. Excellent idea Bev.

[Hortensis]

116. :) Very responsible and generous, but the women the OP describes

would unfortunately seem to feel owed a lot more.

I'm thinking that women who'd lost autonomy over their bodies (both real and imagined that interfered with competence) would actually need an empowered and principled patriarchal type to provide protection. Obviously some diplomatic skills might be required, but hopefully a handy relative or friend would be available if no husband. Responsibilities would include keeping her on the right side of the law whenever she needed you to have an abortifacient available. Barring very bad luck or lack of cooperation with this assistance, there at least should be no need for transportation to abortion clinics.

If you were up for the job and it came to that, though, I would suggest being careful who you offer the assistance of your male autonomy. Somehow I suspect very few would feel that you owed them anything -- and even fewer "grateful" for the concern.

[DURHAM D]

2. Good question.

Perhaps they will see an investment opportunity in underground abortion clinics.

[Doodley]

3. I'm going to carry on treating women in the best way possible.

[nini]

5. The Men of DU aren't the problem

Women who bought into the religious doctrine and right wing BS are.

They are the ones to be targeted with our rage.

[Coventina]

6. I'm not saying they are the problem. I'm asking for ACTION.

And no, because a woman becomes brainwashed into believing herself "lesser than" does not make her the root problem.
The Patriarchy is the problem.

[Occulus]

192. Please see my post way at the end.

I have a response men can give; they can point out what I have and harp on it to supporters of these laws. They cannot change their positions, so I think it would be kind of us to illuminate what their positions actually mean in practice.

I do mean harp on it. They can't get away from this point. Make them choke on it.

[inthewind21]

15. Or

those who voted 3rd party in 2016 because" OMG her emails" Funny how those same voters are now shocked, shocked I say.

[electric_blue68]

22. That 😔🤬

[NBachers]

124. And 2004 . . . and 2000 . . .

[electric_blue68]

135. I don't remember 2004 much re: third party...

but I do remember 2000...

I'm.looking at you, Ralphie.

[COL Mustard]

156. This Shows That Elections Have Consequences

I used to think that it didn't really matter what a particular President did in his one or two terms...if things were badly done they could be undone at the next election. Now we know that isn't the truth. Elections do in fact have consequences, and we need to make sure that the other side faces those consequences. Vote in 2022 like our country depends on it, because it does. Then vote again in 2024, 26, etc....you have to have overwhelming numbers in order to take away any fraud, gerrymandering or other shenanigans the Repugs will pull.

[radius777]

170. Culprits in this order: white men, white women

both of whom majority vote Republican.

The most powerful pro-choice action is to vote Dem, and liberal white men and men of color do so.

Thus the issue of choice is less men vs women (though that dynamic does exist) but rather white conservatives (driven primarily by racism) vs others.

It should be noted that anti-choice laws disproportionately harm women of color and poor women.

[musette_sf]

7. K&R

[brush]

8. We will be voting against republicans. And we should all, men and women...

blast the GQP 24/7 for their anti-women rulings. Every woman should certainly vote against republicans in '22.

BTW, go after republicans, not DU men. Men on DU are allies or we wouldn't be here.

[Dale in Laurel MD]

9. I'm already donating to NARAL and Planned Parenthood.

Pre-Roe, there were organizations to provide money and other support to women who needed assistance to get to a state where they could have abortions. One of those, I know, later merged with Planned Parenthood. If Roe were dropped, I anticipate services like that would re-appear, and I'd give to them as I did before.

Otherwise, I would work to defeat misogynistic politicians wherever I saw them (and of course set an example for non-misogyny).

[BannonsLiver]

10. Blame the GOP and not myself.

[Coventina]

11. I'm not asking you to blame yourself. I'm asking what you will do

as a citizen with full autonomy, which I am NOT, what YOU will do to see that your sisters' oppression comes to an end?

[PTWB]

132. Assuming Roe is overturned...

what autonomy do you suggest men have “to see that your sisters' oppression comes to an end?” which women do not have?

Specifically, what political power do you think men wield, and women do not yield, to end your oppression?

[BlackSkimmer]

12. Yeah, I'm a woman and I'm not getting this OP. At best it's divisive, and at worst, accusatory.

Never mind the fact women can take care of themselves.

I consider the men of DU to be allies in this issue.

Just wrong on so many levels, unfair to both men and women here. Smh.

[Coventina]

14. Please feel free to alert.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything.

I'm asking WHAT WILL MEN DO?


On edit: dumb error on my part.

[BlackSkimmer]

17. Has the Supreme Court made a decision?

I must have missed it.

But by all means, shout at the men of DU if it makes you feel somehow better.

[iemanja]

59. It's believed that they will allow the Missippi abortion ruling to stand

eviscerating Roe.

[BannonsLiver]

21. I'm sure it felt righteous in the OP's mind.

In practice?

[Coventina]

25. Again, please feel free to alert if you feel this thread violates the TOS. eom.

[BlackSkimmer]

33. Everyone here is unhappy about what's happening.

Don’t take it out on your fellow DUers.

[Coventina]

37. All I'm asking is what are liberal men willing to do?

Apparently, that hurts their feelings.

[BlackSkimmer]

42. Your tone is accusatory. There's no reason that men here should have to explain to you what they

do, probably most of them regularly.

Perhaps you don’t realize how your OP is coming across, despite both men and women pointing it out.

[iemanja]

62. You're more concenred with her "tone"

then the fact women are about to lose basic civil rights.
"Tone" has a long and clear meaning in dismissing women's concerns.

[BlackSkimmer]

65. Nope. I'm a woman, and I'm concerned.

I dislike what seems to be a divisive post against members of this community.

[iemanja]

69. We're faced with a Scotus decision that will permanently reduce

women to chattel. Feathers need ruffling.

[BlackSkimmer]

70. I'm not chattel, but thanks.

Nor is anyone I know.

[iemanja]

74. So you're comfortable with Mississippi's abortion law?

but not with asking our allies to do their part. Your priorities are skewed.

[BlackSkimmer]

78. Nice try.

Lol.

[Hortensis]

123. Agree entirely with your posts, BlackSkimmer.

As time goes on, I find more posts make me feel grateful for my children and grandchildren. And proud. They're smart, strong, competent, independent minded -- and dignified, even the ones still in elementary school.

I'm even feeling grateful right now for the elderly widow who cut back our cherry tree, from best we can tell mainly just because she was feeling cranky.

[BlackSkimmer]

136. I hear ya!

[boston bean]

178. Yes. Must watch the tone.

Maybe it is the readers projection of some sort of tone they perceive.

Just a thought

Some may find this response to have a “tone”, but it dosn’t. It’s just an observation.

[BannonsLiver]

84. It doesn't and I wouldn't anyway.

I just don’t agree with your construct. That’s still okay, right?

[Gore1FL]

118. I am not sure the post is alert-worthy

It is simply worded in a way that comes off aggressively blaming liberal men for the actions of conservatives and therefore off-putting.

The "Please Alert" posts aren't helping to resolve that possible misinterpretation, but instead come off as a doubling down on it.

[electric_blue68]

36. Right now people esp Women are in serious pain...

bc here we are...

It's frikkin' happening in real or de facto effect after all these decades!

I figure DU Men are our allies.

I believe her Caps reflect that pain even if it appears devisive.

[Mariana]

41. The OP didn't blame you. nt.

[MineralMan]

13. Continue to work to elect Democrats to office.

Continue not to impregnate anyone. I'm 76 years old and have been successful with that so far. I've been married twice, to women who did not want to bear children, as well.

Refuse to live in or visit any state that has banned abortion or limited it to effectively ban it.

Be as supportive as possible to all efforts to restore reproductive choice everywhere.

Elect women to legislative office wherever possible. My state has two women as US Senators and more than one US congressional representative. One was elected in my congressional district.

[electric_blue68]

38. 👍

[FakeNoose]

58. +1000 Ding ding

Right answer

I worry not for us but for my 15-year-old grandson's generation. I have no granddaughters, however it's the Americans of that age group that will have to deal with this madness.

Clearly we old baby boomers are incapable of fixing it at this point.

[modrepub]

16. I Vote Every Election (Primary and General)

Married, with 2 grown kids (who also have registered and voted in nearly every election they've been qualified for) and a wife. All of us would be on the liberal side and would support the right to choose.

My wife is beside herself like many others (including myself) on what the SCOTUS is going to do. But to be honest, their decisions on the abortion front won't directly impact us (too old to get pregnant) or my kids (both male).

I don't know what else you want me to do? I've consistently gone to the polls and to be honest a lot of elections have been a disappointment at most levels (state through federal). You may not like it (and neither do I and my immediate family) but those on the other side seem just as dedicated if more so to their cause. People went out, organized and did whatever it took to reach their goal. If this was so "obvious" an issue for most folks we wouldn't be in this position. There is a large enough group of folks who want this change and were willing to do whatever it took to achieve it. It didn't happen in a vacuum.

In my state, the last general election had 30% voter turnout. That tells me most folks are disengaged (most likely because they don't see how their vote will change anything). Maybe the SCOTUS actions will awaken a large majority of folks to reengage and make changes. But I'm not counting on it.

[phylny]

115. Well, it won't impact your male children

unless they accidentally impregnate someone and have to spend 18 years providing support for a child they never wanted or have a girlfriend or wife who may die because she’s forced to carry on with the pregnancy they caused that might kill her. Other than that, no problem.

[modrepub]

140. Yea

I would hope my sons would have the common sense to use a condom and women would have access to birth control and use it if they're going to engage in sexual activities. I would also hope they wouldn't term engaging in sex as an "accident". That's a poor word choice. It reflects society's basic failure to openly discuss its sexuality. And truth be told, having unstructured sex has been around a hell of a long time. The adults need to get over their sex hang ups and be able to frankly talk about it.

As I said, I'm for the right to choose and the right to contraceptive access. And probably more importantly, the right to discuss sexuality explicitly without fear or embarrassment. But right now, one side seems to have laid the groundwork to overturn that right. It's been going on for years. And as far as I can tell, most folks don't seem to mind. If there is a "silent majority" that supports women's rights to abortion access, contraception access and control over their sexual choices it sure seems to have been extremely complacent over my lifetime. As I said, elections have consequences.

[TeslaNova]

18. Why 'men of DU'?

Weird thread.

[Coventina]

20. Because men have the right to autonomy over their bodies and women don't.

As is evidenced by the very fact that this case is even happening.

Hope that clarifies things for you, but please feel free to ask further questions if you still are not clear about the problem.

[TeslaNova]

26. Lame

You're acting like we created this, weird you're singling out 'men of DU'. But whatever.

[Coventina]

29. Very curious that you feel a need to deflect blame, when all I asked for is ACTION.

What are you willing to do to end women's subjugation?

It's all I'm asking.

Seems reasonable to ask on a DEMOCRATIC discussion board.

[TeslaNova]

44. Even more curious you seem to blame every man alive

If that's all you're asking why aren't you posing the same question to everyone? Why single out men? Never mind, I know why.

[JudyM]

110. She's certainly not blaming DU men. Crazy interpretation. It's a call to action, looking for

specifics, for soul searching to emphasize that we are all together in this.

[electric_blue68]

128. 👍

[Doodley]

161. I agree that is how it looks. Very aggressive and singling men out. Weird is a good word choice.

[Torchlight]

54. I don't get the push-back you're receiving.

You asked a highly relevant and forthright question.

Hell, just this morning I read a post which suggested "all women" follow a particular course of action. That one received almost all positive responses and none of the indictments you're getting, yet seemed more questionable than the seemingly constructed objections you're getting.



(sure, I'm new. But my couple of weeks here I've seen you consistently on-point and pointedly unobjectionable)

[ancianita]

130. If I were a man I'd respect what you say you mean enough to give a thoughtful, honest answer.

This is a good OP and understandable. I get it. I support you. What male allies can do is note Mineral Man's example, listen and give in-good-faith help, not get all defensive or challenge your question.

For example, only liberal men can answer in their heart of hearts if they've done all they can do to push the final certification of the ERA that's been languishing due to general inaction in Congress.
That amendment's ratification deadline should not be just women's fight; the ERA's finalized inclusion in the US Constitution isn't an historical even that women need to take the lead on, either.
Women are half the nation, not some interest group.

If men looked around, there is plenty for them to do as women's allies. And they know what those things are.

[electric_blue68]

143. With Covid & 1/6 - I'd FORGOTTEN (bc I just looked it up) that THIS Year a Federal Judge...

ruled that the last three States with Virginia being the very latest, and completing the 38th State Requirement to ratify an amendment (The ERA in this case) were so far past the original outset that they didn't count !

Arrrgggggggggggggggggghhhh!!!!!

[ancianita]

144. BUT. What 35 states already ratified cannot be overruled because of two events.

That bogus, specious ruling can be appealed. Congress decides that this amendment stands and must continue forward in ratification. Let patriarchalists who object try to stop Congress, SCOTUS AND 35 states.

WOMEN ARE HALF OF AMERICA.

[electric_blue68]

149. My initial internal reaction was 'well, that's -one- judge'...

take it elsewhere, and considered that that would just go up the line of courts till SCOTUS - and we pretty much know for the current configuration how that'll 99.5% go.

I'd like to see some studied folks here consider your 35 States Ratification push. Could it work?

Maaaaybe massive marches in DC, big marches to local Congressional offices, flooding the Congressional phone lines till they blew, what else...
We know that over time things often get done with massive various actions of different kinds!

[ancianita]

152. Sure. After the John Lewis or For The People Act pass, the ERA should be our next push.

We've made big phone pushes and can do that again. I don't think nationwide marches are needed. We did that just to get the 35 ratifications. So now it's as important to work smart, not just hard.
Biden's legacy is to get women the ERA by 2024. It's a goal for 2022, too.

Today we feel the heat of it, but the push is through Congress to get an appeal rolling. Or just overrule the court. Let's see what happens then.

Congress makes laws. It can push the ERA through and courts can't stop it unless Congress lets them.

[electric_blue68]

154. Thanks for the reminder on Voting Rights Acts! Time for more Free Congress phone calls

[Act_of_Reparation]

179. What would you like us to do?

That's not a snarky question.

I'm not a woman. I don't understand, subjectively, these issues the way women do. The best I can do as a man is support a course of action prescribed by those most affected by these circumstances.

[Mariana]

45. The OP didn't even hint that the men of DU created this. nt.

[iemanja]

67. No, she isn't

She's asking what you will do as allies.

[JuJuChen]

19. I'm a woman and even I'm like..

[Coventina]

23. Got it. Women should sit down and shut up about the Patriarchy.

Because apparently asking for help from our male allies is a trap, somehow.

[MineralMan]

50. I didn't really read your initial post as "asking for help."

I read it as a general attack on the men of DU, disguised as a demand for help, but without any ideas of how to help.

Many men on DU have been helping women get and retain their natural rights of autonomy and to decide for many years. Some of us since the early 1960s. Some of us have acted as escorts at Planned Parenthood facilities whenever needed. All of us have voted for Democrats who support reproductive choice in every election. Others have championed Democratic women who run for office, and have been successful in helping them win their elections.

[Coventina]

61. It was meant to be a call for action.

I appreciate that there are male allies that have helped for decades.

But right now our personhood is being challenged AGAIN.

If you think men are frustrated by this Patriarchal oppression, just try to imagine what it feels like for a woman.

I'm sorry if the post hurt your feelings.

For some reason, I thought the men of DU would respond with actions they would be willing to take to attempt to raise women up.

[MineralMan]

76. As you can see above, I did respond in that way.

Unfortunately, we did not elect Hillary Clinton as President in 2016, despite the efforts of myself and many other men. We recognized just how important defeating Donald Trump would be in terms of Supreme Court nominees. I remember writing many posts here to that effect, many of them specifically mentioning the Roe v. Wade issue.

But, we did not elect her. Just enough people thought that Hillary Clinton was not progressive enough or something and voted for a third party candidate in the three states that made all the difference. Some of them were DUers, who are no longer here.

That was very frustrating. It remains very frustrating. I worry that we will repeat that in 2022 and 2024 and let the Republicans regain control once again.

That's what I have done and what I continue to do. Not just for women, but for everyone. Because everyone needs and deserves the same autonomy and rights.

That, and the other things I mentioned in my reply above. I am represented in Congress by three women. Two in the Senate and one in the house. I worked to help all three win their elections. Why? Because I, too, want to see the patriarchy go away. I always have.

So, you ask what MEN of DU are going to do. We are going to keep doing what we have been doing all along. At least I am.

[Coventina]

79. You seem to be in the minority.

I applaud you.

Your brethren here seem to think it's insulting to ask, or if you will, INSIST on action.

[MineralMan]

87. Most of the men on DU actively support women's right to choose.

I've seen that support reflected in what they write here, and I imagine you have too.

You're upset about the current state of things, and have every right to be upset. I'm upset, too, and that is made worse by what has happened being so easily prevented with some forethought in 2016.

Perhaps listing the ways people could help would have been a better approach to this. Who knows? You might have mentioned things that some were not aware of. Certainly there are many ways a person can help with this pressing need.

I don't know, but I do know that most men here on this forum stand with women on this issue. We always have.

[Coventina]

93. I'm not questioning the "pro-choice" stance of men on this board.

I would never do that.
Only a troll would be on this board and anti-choice.

What I want is commitment to ACTION. Not just defense of their philosophy on a discussion board.

I haven't been around DU much for months, as I have too much to do "in real life" as they say.

I'm actually being a bit irresponsible at the moment by devoting as much time as I have to this thread.

Sure, upon reflection I probably would have changed the OP to something more like:

Men of DU please consider doing as many of the following as possible:

Run for Office
March
Phone bank
Volunteer at a clinic
Volunteer as a driver to health services
Work to open a clinic in your community
Become a community organizer

Having said all that, it is a bit discouraging when MOST (not all) the male responses on the thread, as imperfect as it is, seem obsessed with how mean ole Coventina is for INSISTING they take action.

[electric_blue68]

104. Thank you for being an escort...

Last edited Wed Dec 1, 2021, 07:11 PM - Edit history (2)

Never needed PP for for that service.

I was going to a small building in NYC doing temp work for about 2 weeks+ in the very late 80's, very early '90s.

As I approached the building from a far I was a bit perplexed. (I've been a protester with a sign so not unfarmilar) There were a small set of barricades and a few people with signs.

The closet I got I realized they were Anti-abortion protesters! With the signs, and photos! (I was shocked, bc I'd never seen any before in my then late 30's y/o life)

Did they yell, or talk at me? I don't think they yelled -
I probably would have remembered that! Talked at at some point, probably. It's possible I even entered at some point while a woman was also being escorted.
It was disturbing, aggravating to see such people "in the flesh", and to have to pass by them those weeks.

But a few years later at the '92 Democratic Convention at MSG this happened...

UPI
"Abortion rights supporters outnumbered abortion foes who tried to block two Manhattan women's health clinics Saturday morning, hours before a huge picnic-style supper for journalists and television representatives in midtown Bryant Park kicked off a week of convention- related activities.
...

A second confrontation between an estimated 300 abortion rights supporters and about 35 members of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue occurred outside the Eastern Women's Center on East 30th Street"

I'm almost positive that that was the building I was working in previously.

Then Clinton signed a bill to prohibit blockades, and violent protests at abortion clinics a few years after.

[MineralMan]

107. Most of the women I escorted into a PP clinic

weren't there to get an abortion in the first place. A few were, but most were there for other services.

To the anti-abortion protesters, that didn't matter. They didn't care who the women were or what they were there for. The protesters were there to harass anyone going into that facility.

I'm a tall, muscular man with a full beard. I can also stare down anyone with a cold, menacing look. Nobody yelled at anyone I was helping to get into the building. One look shut them up instantly. Truly. They were cowards, one and all.

I did escorting many times in the area where I lived in California. Whenever there were protests at PP, I'd volunteer. It was a pleasure to help women get the help they needed.

[electric_blue68]

126. Yes, they certainly would...

bother any woman going into that building to any other business, or other health care provided by that clinic.

Since most people have some trepidation going into a medical setting having added harassment of those people just adds increased upset.

I can imgine your stare if you needed to employ it. You've done good work.

[BlackSkimmer]

35. It's a surprising post.

Kind of sad to see it.

[BradAllison]

24. Vote?

Oh, that's right.....that'll be done soon.

[CrackityJones75]

27. Unreal.

What a pathetic post.

[Coventina]

34. Please feel free to alert if you are so offended. eom.

[CrackityJones75]

39. Oh please.

Cut the Bs. This was a dumb thread to start. Here you are saying you are not being divisive but you CLEARLY arr even if you didn’t intend to be. Sometimes people put their foot in their mouth. You did.

[Coventina]

48. It's dumb to ask liberal men what they will do? On a DEMOCRATIC board?

Wow.

[CrackityJones75]

55. Yeah. It is.

We have all been fighting this shit for 60 years. Fought for it to become law and have been defending it since then. By donating and supporting candidates and a party that has fought for it as well. Many people donate to planned parenthood and other women’s resource outreach programs. Maybe not everyone can say they all check off every single box that you or anyone else does but clearly pretty much everyone here save for some extreme outliers support the party’s stance and the overwhelming stance of most democratic politicians.

Let’s flip it around OP…. What would you have the men of DU do?

[Coventina]

73. You could at least acknowledge that women have the right to be angry.

And that we have the right to ask what our male allies are going to do in the face of our rights being taken away.

At least acknowledge the privilege you have to be in control of your own body and decisions of life and death thereof.

[CrackityJones75]

108. When did I acknowledge that I don't believe that?

This is the problem!

[BlackSkimmer]

100. What are YOU doing? You admit yourself how much time you're spending on this thread.

What could you have done in that time?

Please, what ARE you doing besides posting on a discussion board?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

28. Here are some ideas for men who are stumped by the question.

* Donate regularly to Planned Parenthood, independent abortion clinics in your area, or the abortion fund in your area.

* Look into escorting at your local clinic. If you don't have a local clinic, you can support escorts in other areas with donations.

* Get comfortable talking about abortion and the terms around it. It was clear from some of the justices' questions that even they weren't fluent in the vocabulary of abortion. Learn about who gets abortions and why, and what it takes to access one.

* Read up on the concept of male privilege and look for ways to leverage yours and then ultimately dismantle it.

* Familiarize yourself with the history of the anti-abortion movement, which got its start in evangelical circles after school desegregation. It's a racial issue as much as a gender issue.

[electric_blue68]

49. 👍

[Mariana]

52. Apparently some prefer to be offended that the OP even asked the question.

Thank you for posting some very reasonable suggestions. I hope no one is offended by them.

[Solly Mack]

64. Thank you

[iemanja]

81. Thank you. nt

[Coventina]

82. Thank you!!!!

[hlthe2b]

99. +++

[Gore1FL]

120. Well sure. But why is there an assumption this isn't happening? nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

127. I didn't see that assumption in the OP, and simply provided some suggestions for men who want to

do more than the bare-ass minimum than vote as hard as they can and donate to pro-choice politicians. I can certainly provide more suggestions if they need more.

[Gore1FL]

131. I'm not sure the assuming that the men of DU need suggestions is helpful to vibe of this thread.

It's weird to me that a thread concerning a topic we all agree on can be made to be so unnecessarily divisive. But, it is DU and this sort of thing happens all of the time.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

141. I would be very surprised to learn that even the majority of men on DU were working to dismantle

male privilege and the white supremacy it upholds.

[ancianita]

151. I would be, too.

[iemanja]

165. quite obviously we don't all agree

Most think feeling comfortable matters more than equal rights.

[Gore1FL]

169. I doubt that's true of DUers in general.

If the original poster presented a call to action rather than the more accusatory line they decided to take, this whole thread could have served as a workshop of ideas. Instead we get to argue about the tone and subtext rather than the points the poster presumably was actually trying to make.

Presentation style is an important part of reaching the intended audience.

[iemanja]

181. case in point

You too could have made it a workshop of ideas, as a few here have done, yet you insist the OP, as a woman, behave well to earn your support.

[Gore1FL]

182. No. She already has my support.

She probably already has most male DUers support.

Antagonizing us isn't the best method to increase said support. Fortunately, I don't use DU threads to guide my humanity.

It's sad all of this effort is being wasted, though.

[Amishman]

30. Treat them with respect and as equals, same as I do today

As will the overwhelming majority of men in this country.

[genxlib]

31. With all due respect

We are not your enemy.

This is such classic left wing reactionary politics to attack your allies for being less than perfect just because the real evil pricks seem untouchable.

Believe me, we are in this together. Even though I don't have lady parts I do have a daughter.

You can be angry at me if it helps you cope but I assure you it will not actually help to fix anything beyond that.

[Coventina]

40. I never said you were my enemy. I'm merely asking what are you willing to do?

If our allies won't take any action, then that's a pretty sad state of so-called "liberal" affairs.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

72. I got the point of your OP, but you weren't "merely asking."

In no sense of that phrase is that representative of the tone of the OP.

[Coventina]

75. OK, fine. Then I'm DEMANDING that liberal men take action.

Feel free to ignore it, it is a free country (for men).

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

89. You didn't hurt my feelings.

You seemed to be unaware of the tone in your responses to other people. If you were aware of it, not sure why you denied it.

Nobody on this page is your enemy.

[Coventina]

96. Maybe we're talking past each other, so I'll try to explain.

I fully acknowledge that I was DEMANDING that men of DU take action.

What I am denying is that I am BLAMING the men of DU for what is currently happening (the SCOTUS case).

I do firmly believe that the men on this board are pro-choice. If they aren't, they must be trolls.
I never meant to call that into question.

What I am saying is that this FURTHER EROSION of women as citizens of this country needs action by MEN, because whether I like it or not, MEN have an easier time accessing and asserting power in this country. So we need male allies to work alongside us and with us to access and use that power.

[TwilightZone]

92. Many liberal men have been taking action for decades.

Several of them in this very thread. So far, you seem to be mostly dismissive of them so some of the reactions aren't that surprising.

If you want allies, they're already here. You don't seem to want to acknowledge that, which is fine. It's an exceedingly frustrating time and I think many don't know what to do about it, present company included.

[iemanja]

83. "tone"

The tried-and-true trope.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

90. I teach English and it's a pretty common word to describe something in writing.

Do you have a better option for the concept? I'll use it if you do. The responses from the OP didn't seem to acknowledge the approach in the OP.

Oh, and was there somewhere I indicated I didn't like the tone?

[iemanja]

153. the better option

Is to ask for suggestions about how you can help. That requires that equal rights be a priority.

The message you are sending is that your discomfort is more important than women's rights. You, of course, are not alone in this. The OP got a very clear answer to her question. It's "don't you dare ask."

[BlackSkimmer]

46. This.

Well said.

[CrackityJones75]

47. Yup.

And when called on it the response is they weren’t being divisive. I am sooo incredibly tired of having to fight tight wing nazi fascists AND people I am in alignment with.

[GusBob]

32. Ima' 'man up' and accept the blame

since all men everywhere are the problem

[Coventina]

43. Never asked you to take blame. Just asked what you will do.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

51. Shit, hegemony hates being questioned.

[TomSlick]

53. What do you propose we do?

From the above, it appears that voting and contributing are insufficient. What would you have us do?

[CrackityJones75]

56. Thank you.

[Mariana]

57. WhiskeyGrinder posted some good suggestions in #28. nt.

[TomSlick]

68. I agree. However, the original poster did not endorse those suggestions.

I take that to mean the suggestions are insufficient. I would sincerely appreciate any reasonable suggestions.

[Coventina]

80. Oh I'm so sorry I didn't personally endorse those suggestions.

I'll rectify that immediately.

Please consider them endorsed.

[TomSlick]

150. Cool.

If you have other ideas for what should be done, I'd like to hear them.

[iemanja]

166. She thanked him

How does that not constitute endorsing those suggestions?

[TomSlick]

184. She did after my question.

See post #80.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

88. Voting and contributing to candidates are the bare-ass minimum.

[Mariana]

60. Now you know the answer, Coventina.

Many of them are going to be offended that you even asked the question.

[Coventina]

63. It's un-fucking-believable.

Thanks for being a supportive sister to me.

The Patriarchy really hates to be even questioned, doesn't it?

[iemanja]

71. It is, I'm afraid,

predictable.

[GusBob]

97. "Patriarchy" huh?

Clearly, you are now blaming the men of DU.

[hlthe2b]

101. This issue is far too big, serious, and consequential to allow "hurt feelings" to rule response.

Try to see the big picture, ok, GusBob? Unity is Power.

[Red Mountain]

147. It sure is

Republican women know that all too well.

I have a hard time blaming this on the 'Patriarchy' when so many conservative women don't support the right to an abortion and so many liberal men do.

It's exactly what the votes that will throw out Roe suggest....conservatives have campaigned, fund raised and motivated their turnout on dumping it for forever and may be getting closer.

I think they're the dog that is about to catch that car they've been chasing. It's going to be ugly for them.

[KG]

95. word.

the butt-hurt totally unsurprising

[bigtree]

66. every little thing I can

...

[Ohio Joe]

85. So... Some do not feel this is a legit question...

Or even feel as though some type of blame is being pointed at them personally.

This is part of the problem... Sheesh. The attitude is no different than I see when people talk about systemic racism and (almost always right wingers) feel as though they are being called racist. Bleeech... I'm off topic, let me try to address what the OP asked.

To be honest... I don't know. I'll continue to do what I have done for decades... Donate, escort, vote and try to convince others that women's control over their own bodies is at serious risk. This is all well and good but the simple fact is it is not enough. For those same decades the right has steadily chipped away at women's rights. I don't know what the answer is... I don't know what else to do... I am open to suggestions.

[Coventina]

86. First: Thank you!

There is an excellent post upthread by WhiskeyGrinder with some ideas.

[electric_blue68]

146. Thank you for being an escort, too...

I was talking to MineralMan about this if you want to talk a look
My post #104

[Elessar Zappa]

91. First of all,

I won’t take it personally when I’m asked what I will do to dismantle the patriarchy. I’ll continue donating to planned parenthood. I’ll listen to women. I’ll vote for pro-choice candidates. And I’ll be open to doing anything else I can do to help.

[hlthe2b]

94. I would hope most men would agree with you, just as I don't take offense when action re: race

is required or even demanded. Nor when LGBTQ community expects solidarity from all as well.

Unity is power.

[bluecollar2]

98. Whatever I'm asked to do...n/t

[DFW]

102. I don't think we can adopt the Republican "Second Amendment" approach

The least I can do is get my wife, daughters and granddaughters EU (in our case, German) passports and legal nationalities, in case they should ever need them.

Ok, done.

As for the rest of you, it is time to get involved in EVERY tiny election campaign going on locally, from dog catcher on up. It is by NOT doing that , that we are in the pickle we are in. We’ll only get out of it by doing the reverse. It won’t get done overnight, just so you know this in advance.

[Kaleva]

106. Getting an AR15 isn't an option for me.

[electric_blue68]

133. If I remember my history correctly...

Last edited Wed Dec 1, 2021, 07:15 PM - Edit history (1)

after Goldwater's resounding defeat in '64 (I was 11), the Republicans licked their wounds for a while.

Then, they quadrupled down as you suggested for these times and ran for every little nook, and cranny office, and higher, and higher till we got Reagan, etc

[LexVegas]

103. I will continue to vote Dem as part of a minority group that does so at a higher % than women. nt

[Dorian Gray]

105. Geez

This thread is filled with sensitive people who can’t handle being challenged.

[TygrBright]

109. "Citizens?" More like "talking domestic livestock." n/t

[brooklynite]

112. When we were pulling out of Afghanistan...

...folks here were happy to say it was up to the soon-to-be oppressed Afghanis to deal with matters themselves.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

113. Clearly, men on DU think they're doing QUITE ENOUGH.

(Also I would encourage white women who don't love some of the reactions on this thread to think about how they may react to a similar question coming from Black women, because this is all about the #NotAll objection.)

[Beastly Boy]

138. The question in the OP was "WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?', not "What else are you going to do?"

or "What more are you going to do?' or "what are you going to do in addition to what you are already doing?" Never mind that there are different men on 's whose involvement in advocating for women's rights differs dramatically. The clear implication of the OP's question the way it was posed is that men on DU, lumped into a single group, are doing nothing, which is patently false, not that they are doing something which is not "quite enough".

When offered in response to the "all" proposition in the OP, the "not all" objection seems pretty reasonable to me, just as it would be in response to the "men on DU" in your post.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

142. Okay.

[iemanja]

167. this is very much like white fragility

which white people of all genders engage in. The fact that so many are more concerned with their own comfort than equal rights goes a long way toward explaining why many forms of inequality are so dominant.

[Dorian Gray]

171. It's embarrassing to see

on a progressive message board.

Hint: If you've been working for healthcare access for women... keep doing it. If you haven't, maybe it's time you start. If you're offended by the challenge, you're either really fucking sensitive or telling on yourself. "NOT ALL MEN!" blah blah blah blabitty blah.

[demmiblue]

114. My, my, my... you certainly have gotten quite the response from a handful.

[Evolve Dammit]

117. First, be as pissed off as you are. Second attend public rallies and protests to make politicians

actually take notice, in case they're not already. Third, support and vote for candidates that condemn any affronts to women and offer counter-legislation. Fourth, work locally to support women's rights programs.
There is probably more, but that's off the top of my head. I'm incensed as well at the direction we are heading.

[ck4829]

119. The day that people keep talking about taking action is here.

[OldYog]

121. I'll do what I always do.

I will not vote for any republican, ever. I will not vote for anyone who testifies endlessly about their “Faith” and love of god, ever. I will not vote for anyone who does not support free and fair voting rights for all eligible US citizens. I will not vote for mean people. Period.

[CaptainTruth]

122. Everything I possibly can, & I place no limits on that.

[Beastly Boy]

125. The division between men and women you are suggesting in your post is pretty superficial

So is your apparent outrage directed at men in general. It's not like men are not involved in women's rights and doing nothing about it.

I would suggest that the current crisis experienced by women extends far beyond your control over your bodies and has to do with everpresent institutionalized sexism. What are we men going to do about it? What we have always done: identify the institutions that promote and defend sexism and do our damnest to change them.

I would further suggest that women, despite being increasingly marginalized, can play as much of a role in this process as men can.

Forgive me for dragging women into this despite your warning to not give you any business about it, but I just don't see divisive rhetoric to be helpful in what clearly takes a united effort.

[ancianita]

158. Really. The "suggested division" is not "pretty superficial."

If you want to prove Coventina right about that division, start "suggesting" to an outraged, opinionated woman over equal rights that she take your word for what men do.

I support Coventina. In the "before Roe" days, we asked the same question.

I don't see men here agreeing with you. If DU men knew that they'd done enough, they'd be happily joining in to answer. It took a long time on this thread more than one or two to appear, considering over 3,000 DU'ers have viewed this thread.

If you think DU men do enough, when an OP woman wants to know what they will do, why would you tell them to be more "helpful? Shush them, assure them that men are working hard as they can. If men can so easily be divided from women by women wanting proof of their work on women's behalf, maybe men are just 'sunshine allies' of women.

Why not take a man-poll.
Ask DU members who identify as men if they think women as half of the country have to take the lead to keep theirs and their female descendants' constitutional right on bodily autonomy and privacy and prior rights of life, liberty, etc.

Condescending phrases like "forgive me" and "but I just don't see divisive rhetoric to be helpful" and Suggest that she "agree with how we see ourselves or you're divisive."

These are laughable shirks to excuse not unifying with women. What you say -- "nuh uh! yes we have done all we can take our word for that!" -- does not square with where women now are. Men know we're about to move backwards across states; it proves women's issue that men haven't unified with women. That men claim to have tried the best they can is not true or none of this legal crap would be happening in a non-patriarchal society that respects women's equality.

[Beastly Boy]

163. There is nothing I want to prove to an opinionated woman.

Last edited Thu Dec 2, 2021, 09:42 AM - Edit history (1)

As your reply suggests, that would be an utterly futile undertaking. One would reasonably expect that were you a little less opinionated, you may have attempted to offer an argument as to why you don't consider the division between men and women in the context of the OP to not be superficial, instead of just making an indignant statement to that effect in your header. Or you may have presented an argument against my suggestion that the current crisis experienced by women extends far beyond your control over your bodies and has to do with ever-present institutionalized sexism. Or you may have presented an argument challenging the answer I offered in response to the OPs central question about what men are going to do for women now: identify the institutions that promote and defend sexism and do our damnest to change them. Or you may have challenged me on my belief that women can do as much in challenging institutional sexism as men can. Or you may have challenged my opinion that divisive rhetoric is unhelpful in what clearly takes a unified effort.

The above makes up at least 95% of the issues I raised in my post. Yet, in your opinionated response, you chose to ignore all of them.

Instead, you tell me you support Conventina. Well, so do I, but this does not compel me to accept her divisive rhetoric. You say you don't see men here agreeing with me. I see both men and women in this thread agreeing with me, but let me make one thing abundantly clear: the mere fact of people disagreeing with me doesn't intimidate me one bit. In fact I welcome disagreement. I just appreciate intelligent rationale to accompany any such disagreement. Not much to ask for, is it? You nonchalantly ascribe to me the thought (as if you actually know what I think) of men doing enough (I presume this refers to the content of the OP). Yet, neither the OP nor I raise the issue of men doing or not doing enough. The question was, and I quote: "WHAT ARE YOU [men] GOING TO DO?" Not "What else are you going to do?" Not "What more are you going to do?' Not "what are you going to do in addition to what you are already doing?" So men doing or not doing enough was an issue that was never raised, until you volunteered to do so.

You can now begin to understand my reluctance to attempt to prove anything to you, can't you? It takes certain discipline to engage in a meaningful debate, and I find it lacking in your reply. So feel free to respond with your choice of snark that may or may not have anything to do with what I posted or didn't post.

Just don't expect a reply.

[Dorian Gray]

172. lol

if you don't care about proving anything, why write a five paragraph long screed.

"How dare a woman express frustration or demand allyship from men!!!!"

[Beastly Boy]

175. I find certain matters worthy of discussion.

Last edited Thu Dec 2, 2021, 10:02 AM - Edit history (1)

And that includes women expressing their frustration and demanding allyship. I totally get the former, and I disagree with the latter. Neither requires proof of anything.

Also, could you provide the source of the quote you included in your post? Surely you are not suggesting that this is something I ever posted, are you?

[DenaliDemocrat]

129. Women outnumber men 51 to 49%

If all women voted in their best interests, you wouldn’t need the men’s vote at all.

Seems to me you should be asking the women this first

[iemanja]

164. You know full well

that women don't control state legislatures or any government. Pretending there is some kind of equity is bullshit.

And women DO vote Democratic. So your argument is based on a false assumption.

[DenaliDemocrat]

174. No, it's based on math

Eom

[iemanja]

180. Your voodoo math is flawed

since a majority of women already vote Democratic.

[DenaliDemocrat]

183. But not enough do

If 100% of women voted for Democratic candidates, they could win without 1 male vote. Too many women vote against women.

[Stinky The Clown]

134. This is really an unfortunate post. You're aiming at the wrong target.

I get it that women are upset. Trust me, so are MANY men.

I am old enough to know what life was like before abortion was legal anywhere. I remember when New York, a neighboring state to mine when I lived up that way, was the only place to go to get one when they first legalized abortion. I took two women friends there just to provide transportation, assistance, and comfort. Neither of those pregnancies involved me. They were friends who happened to be women. I have been a life long feminist and continue to be. I'm not perfect by any means and haven't always done the right things by women, but I am fundamentally on board with their fight.

So, in answer to your discordant note to people on your side - WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?!?!?!

Just what I have been doing for more than 50 years.

Be well. You're not alone.

[electric_blue68]

155. Thank you for helping your friends

[LiberalLoner]

137. 👍👏👏👏👏👏

[48656c6c6f20]

139. Being of an age where I have learned to live peacefully

With women. What do you want me to do? Even that seems like I've cornored myself into now I'm just a dumb man and I should already know what to do.
I don't find your post at all devisive. Just makes me think what did I fuck up now?

[BlackSkimmer]

145. I'm not a third class citizen. I'm not a second class citizen. I'm not a victim.

Ymmv, but I just don’t understand rushing into victimhood in terms of “how will someone save me?”

My thoughts are: don’t rant on DU, go do something about it.

[Dial H For Hero]

148. I don't think my behavior will change in any way.

[PatrickforB]

157. Same thing we all need to do.

1. Educate people around us, in our own circles, about policy and how it affects us, and
2. Stay active in local politics and the nominating process, and
3. Vote.

[Kaleva]

159. Do our actions have to produce noticeable positive results or does non-productive behavior count?

[Doodley]

162. My wife just asked why you would ask this of me and not her. What should I tell her?

[Dorian Gray]

173. A good start

would be to tell her to speak for herself on a message board rather than you doing it for her. Ridiculous.

[Beastly Boy]

176. She just spoke for herself. She spoke to her husband.

A man that she apparently trusts more than an anonymous message board. I am curious why you find this ridiculous.

[Doodley]

188. Thank you for saying that. That poster was extremely rude and seemed to expect me to tell

my wife what she should do. No, I'm not a misogynist pig. I let my wife make her own decisions, but it seems that isn't good enough for some.

[Doodley]

187. She has no desire to post on a message board, and isn't for me to tell her what she should or

shouldn't do. If I was a misogynist pig, perhaps I would. And yet you say that is "ridiculous."

[Polybius]

168. Keep voting Democrat

Is that good enough or no?

[róisín_dubh]

177. Gotta love all the offended folks on this thread

Look, gents, like white people benefit from white privilege whether they are allies of Black people (just an example) or not, you benefit from the patriarchy whether you are a Democrat or not.
Why is that so complicated for some of you to understand? The patriarchy doesn't really care if you're a Democrat, you benefit from it regardless of your political leanings and your alliances.

[Doodley]

189. Sorry to be a male, but explain how I benefit if my wife or my daughter are denied their rights?

[róisín_dubh]

190. It's not about only this.

And it’s not about you. It’s a systemic problem that benefits men. It’s about a legal system that prioritizes men’s issues. It’s about systemic law that de-prioritizes women’s issues. And it’s about a system that makes women less than men. Period.
I don’t know why this is so complicated for intelligent men to grasp.

[Doodley]

193. Now you say it isn't about me, but you made it clear it is about me and other men on DU. You wrote:

"Look, gents, like white people benefit from white privilege whether they are allies of Black people (just an example) or not, you benefit from the patriarchy whether you are a Democrat or not." Please tell me how I benefit from "systemic law that de-prioritizes women's issues," or how I benefit from my wife or my daughter losing their rights.

[róisín_dubh]

194. Yeah...

I don’t know how to explain it to you any better. You’re either seriously clueless or purposely obtuse.
🙄

[SunImp]

185. I'll do anything I can to help

I won't uselessly rant about the Supreme Court's decisions on Roe v Wade to rile people up though. I want to help by doing something ACTUALLY helpful to woman who need the help. I'm willing to drive them to an abortion clinic, help pay for their medical expenses, confront anyone who harasses them, anything that actually helps them out.

[jalan48]

186. Elect more Democrats.

[Occulus]

191. Here's a nasty response I bet you haven't seen yet. I'm going to be pointing out that

the Texas law actually rewards rapists by virtually guaranteeing their genes will be successfully passed on. This law makes rape a legitimately viable reproductive strategy in Texas; even though rape is a crime, the rapist still gets the only reward that counts or will last after he's dead and gone: reproduction.

Natural selection doesn't care how or by which means a trait increases the chance to reproduce- it only cares that genes are passed on. Those genes- rapists' genes- are going to be selected now, and the state will make sure their tactic is successful.

Yes, I know rape isn't about sex or reproduction. Well, that's changed- in Texas, rape can definitely be about reproduction, plain and simple, and the state will help the rapist reproduce. Thus, supporters of this law as written (lacking the exceptions for rape and incest) are joined at the hip to the state's actions here. They'd rather a rapist had a child than let his victim deny him genetic victory.

I'm going to be sure to characterize it as offensively as possible to the law's supporters, who help rapists breed. Promoting rape is not what they set out to do, but it damned well is what they effectively did and I intend to rub their individual and collective noses in that.