Why is Christianity never discussed as the main driving force behind the Anti-Choices forces?

[Sibelius Fan]

Isn’t that where 99.999% of opposition to abortion springs? Why dance around the elephant in the room?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

1. It is discussed. In the highest public places on Dec. 1, 2021. Today. And on DU. Today.

I do take your point. This is sort of the "exception that proves the rule."

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216101089

BAMM!! Sotomayor--"How is your view anything but a religious view?"The
root of the abortion issue is religion. She rooted it out and asked. The attorney had no answer.Nice!

[Sibelius Fan]

3. Did not hear that, and I've been watching Nicole today.

[Sibelius Fan]

4. Why not be specific and call out Christianity, rather than using "religion"

as a euphemism?

[totodeinhere]

20. True, other religions such as Islam and Orthodox Judaism are also involved. n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

2. I wouldn't call it a driving force-- I'd call it the main excuse.

[NewHendoLib]

5. I'd call it a huge and dangerous cult

[Alexander Of Assyria]

6. Astute question. Complex answer, but arent most in media top to bottom, Christian?

[Elessar Zappa]

7. I would say it's certain sects of Christianity

rather than Christianity as a whole.

[mahina]

16. This

I’m Christian. I’m pro choice.

We were folk mass, Father Berrigan, feed the hungry Catholics.

Left the Catholic Church when I was 12 because “You are bad. You’re going to hell. Give us money” gets a little thin.

It took me till 2018 to go back to church again. I needed some light. I found a small, very liberal church that is heart-healing, society healing, uplifting, and is my community.

The Black church is a powerful community for people in other places.

All those words to say, sometimes it’s a little complicated.

[LAS14]

17. Thank you! There is so much ignorance expressed on DU about religion. I'm Christian and pro-choice,

as are most mainstream denominations.

[Effete Snob]

27. "as are most mainstream denominations."

Ah, you don't need links for your assertions. Only other people do.

I do know quite a bit about religion, and certainly enough to know that the habit of liberal Protestants of calling themselves "mainstream" was already an anachronism by the late 1980's.

The five largest denominations of Christians are:

The Catholic Church, 68,202,492 members

The Southern Baptist Convention, 16,136,044 members

The United Methodist Church, 7,679,850 members

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6,157,238 members

The Church of God in Christ, 5,499,875 members

Now, if you want to talk about the views of persons who identify generally as "Christian" I have linked to the Gallup data elsewhere in this thread, showing that the majority of self-identified "Christians" also identify as "pro-life" given a binary, non-nuanced choice.

But if we are counting the identified stance of most prominent Christian denominations, in contrast to the anachronistic "mainstream" label applied to aging and shrinking varieties of Protestants (amidst a general shrinkage of identified "Christians" across the board), then it is obvious that FOUR OUT OF FIVE of the largest denominations in the US are "pro-life" as an official position, and I say that only because I do not know what the United Methodists have as an official position, if any.

Oh, and, here's your link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States#Christianity

Where's my link?

[Effete Snob]

8. It's impolite

It's like pointing out that Nazi Germany was overwhelmingly evangelical protestant during the rise of Hitler, and that the German national identity was forged in Luther's reformation which (a) standardized their language, (b) gave their nobility support for breaking with Rome, and (c) called for elimination of the Jews:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und iren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word anti-Judaic and antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther (1483–1546).

Luther's attitude toward Jews took different forms during his lifetime. In his earlier period, until 1537 or not much earlier, he wanted to convert Jews to Lutheranism (Protestant Christianity), but failed. In his later period when he wrote On the Jews and Their Lies, he denounced them and urged their persecution.

In the treatise, he argues that Jewish synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes burned, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness, afforded no legal protection, and "these poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time. He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[W]e are at fault in not slaying them".

The book may have had an impact on creating later antisemitic German thought. During World War II, copies of the book were held up by Nazis at rallies, and according to Marc H. Ellis it had a significant impact on the Holocaust.

People will "No True Scotsman" it to death.

Bottom line - the majority of persons who self-identify as "Christian" oppose reproductive choice.

[LAS14]

18. Link?

"Bottom line - the majority of persons who self-identify as "Christian" oppose reproductive choice."

[Effete Snob]

21. Yes

What do you give me for doing your homework?

Is Gallup good enough for you:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx

Scroll down to:

"pro choice" % / "pro life" %

Protestant/Christian 40 / 56
Catholic 40 / 55
None/Atheist/Agnostic 77 / 19

You'll also notice in the measure of frequency of religious service attendance that religious service attendance correlates positively with those who call themselves "pro life".

The difference between all Christians (assuming we agree that Protestant and Catholic cover the waterfront) with those of the non-religious is striking.

Among all religious characterizations, the "pro life" position is least prevalent among the non-religious.

[Progressive Jones]

22. Another reason why I choose a reality based mentality in my life. nt

[Gore1FL]

9. I don't know if it is so much Christianity but Christians claim to represent Christianity.

The difference is subtle. While I am not a Christian, I believe it is possible to be one and not be one of these anti-woman assholes.

[Mariana]

14. There are so many different flavors of Christianity.

Even so, the most hateful varieties are popular in the United States. The majority Christian voters cast their ballots for Trump in 2016, and the numbers were very little different in 2020.

[Effete Snob]

25. Yep

But, and here's a goofy thing....

A couple of days ago, I mentioned the thoroughly non-controversial fact that a majority of white voters voted for Trump both times. I had no idea this was even subject to debate.

Merely pointing that out, riled up so many "Not me!" or "Not in my small Northeastern state!" replies it was just amazing. As if someone had made a personal accusation or as if any one white person is representative of a "majority of white people".

The correlation between religious belief and anti-choice attitudes is well documented, and I have provided links to Gallup numbers on that in this thread.

But just because "My declining and formerly-influential denomination is pro-choice!" does not change the measured numbers.

I have come to the realization that there are people who cannot grasp the concept of making statistical measurements.

[ms liberty]

33. What people didn't like in that thread was your rude post to babylonsister and

Your lack of a link for your claim that white people all voted for Trump.

[Effete Snob]

34. I did provide a link

And the notion I said that “all” white people voted for Trump is a lie.

Most white people - i.e. the majority of white people - voted for Trump. Both times. This is a well documented fact:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/exit-polls-president.html

Saying that you didn’t, or that the people in Doghollow Woods didn’t, does not change that fact.

I was asked in this thread for a link about self-identified Christians and pro-choice/pro-life. I provided a link to the relevant Gallup data. It is also a well documented fact that the majority of persons identifying as Christians are “pro-life”.

That simple and well-documented fact is not contradicted by “Me and the rest of First Presbyterian Church of Doghollow Woods are pro-choice.” That one would think that somehow contradicts a measurable fact simply suggests to me that people don’t understand how math works.

I don’t create facts, but I try not to live in denial of them. It is not my fault that most white people voted for Trump, that most Christians are “pro-life”, or that most school shooters are, overwhelmingly, the children of white suburbanites.

Perhaps if we can get over ourselves for long enough to reflect on the actual facts, we would have a better grip on a way of changing them.

[ms liberty]

35. Yes you did. Not on your first comment on the thread though, but after people commented

and asked for links, which you thought was just terrible, and then you were rude in your comment to babylonsister.
Now you want a pat on the back because you provided links in comments since then, but you've also made negative sarcastic comments in threads since then about having to provide links.

[Hortensis]

10. Strange premise. The religious basis is constantly discussed -- and trumpeted!

What's comparatively very seldom discussed is the significant secular opposition to abortion, based on belief in the sanctity of life and concern for the lives at stake -- rather than some diety's commandment. It's smaller but real and sincere.

[SCantiGOP]

11. There are many demoninations that are not anti-abortion

I live in ultra-Red SC, and I can think of several in my hometown that are pro-gay rights and pro-choice.
Just because the evangelicals are so loud and dominate on the media doesn't mean that they should define Christianity.
Ever heard of a guy talk about "Don't cast the first stone"?

[Hortensis]

13. :) Or the 100,000th.

[LAS14]

19. Thank you!

[uponit7771]

32. +1

[walkingman]

12. Why is Christianity never discussed as the driving force behind misogyny?

[Hortensis]

15. Again, VERY strange premise. At least I assume you didn't actually

mean Christianity is more misogynistic and a bigger influence than all other religions. It's not even close to the oldest of still-existent religions, while older religions that oppressed and enslaved women stretch so far back in time that most are completely lost.

Btw, it's not coincidence that western nations are both leaders in women's rights and dominated by the Christian religion. Though many sects promote subservient roles for wome, Christianity is not the strongest force for subjection of women on the planet. Men are.

[walkingman]

26. I should have said religion is a big factor but to what degree each are is debatable. The history

of religion definitely tells me it is a big factor. I find it hypocritical that rhetoric and personal opinion try to discount the fact that attitudes towards women have been a major factor in most religious dogma.

I do agree that men tend to be the primary perpetrators in whatever setting.

[Hortensis]

28. Well, I agree, but of course cultural attitudes toward women were

incorporated into religions. Those who disagree with that are those who insist their god did it.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. Because it isn't. christians dont have a monopoly on misogyny. There are many many forces driving it

Greed, money, power.

Clergies throughout all religions love power, though many clergy individually do not thirst for power.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

23. The driving force is exploitation of single issue voters by coalition of 1% & power-mad RepubliCons

Greed, money, and power.

The christian single issue voters are just road kill and cannon fodder. They are used to get huge tax cuts for tRump's buddies and His Orangeness himself. To get conservative judges who will rule in favor of corporations against citizens.

The RepubliQons and Cons love power. That's their driving force. They are also willing to superheat the rules and bend them more than a little.

[ProfessorGAC]

29. It Is, And Has Been...

...for at least 40 years.
Not sure how you landed on your premise.

[keithbvadu2]

30. We have plenty of folks who want to be the Christian Ayatollah of America

[brooklynite]

31. Who should be discussing this?

Is making that point going to change the dynamics of decision making on abortion?