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turbinetree

(24,713 posts)
Wed Dec 1, 2021, 09:28 PM Dec 2021

Trump DOJ official to plead the 5th - and Capitol riot committee will 'hang it around his neck': CNN

Trump DOJ official to plead the 5th -- and Capitol riot committee will 'hang it around his neck': CNN analyst

By Brad Reed
Published December 01,

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CNN legal analyst Elie Honig on Wednesday told CNN's Erin Burnett that the House Select Committee investigating the January 6th Capitol riots was about to make things very uncomfortable for former Trump DOJ official Jeffrey Clark.

Even though the committee voted to move forward with criminal contempt charges against Clark on Wednesday, the former Trump official is nonetheless slated to appear before the committee soon, where he is expected to assert his Fifth Amendment rights against self-incrimination.

Burnett pointed out that "it's going to sound damning" if Clark pleads the Fifth on every question at the hearing, and Honig replied that this is exactly why the Capitol riot committee wants to make him do it.

https://www.rawstory.com/jeffrey-clark-capitol-riot-committee/

Lock his ass up......

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Trump DOJ official to plead the 5th - and Capitol riot committee will 'hang it around his neck': CNN (Original Post) turbinetree Dec 2021 OP
What about Pantagruel Dec 2021 #1
I suspect they have what they need so far and with a court ruling on the doc's coming down the pike turbinetree Dec 2021 #3
They could grant him immunity and then force him to answer questions. Lasher Dec 2021 #2
"If you're innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?" keithbvadu2 Dec 2021 #4
Exactly....... turbinetree Dec 2021 #5
5th. rso Dec 2021 #6
Supreme Court precedent suggests otherwise. onenote Dec 2021 #7
Pleading The Fifth Amendment And Adverse Inferences In Civil Litigation LetMyPeopleVote Dec 2021 #9
I respectfully disagree with your statement that i'm wrong onenote Dec 2021 #10
Do you have any authority for these claims LetMyPeopleVote Dec 2021 #11
This depo will be sent to the bar committee looking at Clark's disbarment LetMyPeopleVote Dec 2021 #8
Whaaaa? gratuitous Dec 2021 #12

turbinetree

(24,713 posts)
3. I suspect they have what they need so far and with a court ruling on the doc's coming down the pike
Wed Dec 1, 2021, 09:35 PM
Dec 2021

from Trump it is going to be "all of there worst nightmare"....and Meadows is now I guess cooperating....he more than likely did turn over some....

Lasher

(27,633 posts)
2. They could grant him immunity and then force him to answer questions.
Wed Dec 1, 2021, 09:31 PM
Dec 2021

The same kind of thing has been done before.

keithbvadu2

(36,886 posts)
4. "If you're innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?"
Wed Dec 1, 2021, 09:36 PM
Dec 2021
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017602194 video

“The mob takes the Fifth,” Trump said after Hillary Clinton aides invoked their right against self-incrimination. “If you’re innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”

rso

(2,273 posts)
6. 5th.
Wed Dec 1, 2021, 09:53 PM
Dec 2021

At the very least, invoking the 5th. repeatedly by a lawyer like Clark, should be sufficient to get him disbarred.

onenote

(42,748 posts)
7. Supreme Court precedent suggests otherwise.
Wed Dec 1, 2021, 11:07 PM
Dec 2021

Spevack v. Klein, 385 U.S. 511 (1967):

"The Self-Incrimination Clause of the Fifth Amendment...which has been absorbed in the Fourteenth, extends its protection to lawyers, and should not be watered down by imposing the dishonor of disbarment and the deprivation of livelihood as a penalty for asserting it...We find no room in the privilege against self-incrimination for classifications of people so as to deny it to some and extend it to others. Lawyers are not excepted from the words "No person . . . shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself"; and we can imply no exception."

While this isn't a "criminal case" per se, it is unlikely that the Court would find a significant distinction.

LetMyPeopleVote

(145,489 posts)
9. Pleading The Fifth Amendment And Adverse Inferences In Civil Litigation
Thu Dec 2, 2021, 12:30 AM
Dec 2021

Disbarment proceedings are civil proceedings and so your analysis is simply wrong
https://www.litigationandtrial.com/2013/04/articles/attorney/pleading-the-fifth-adverse-inferences/#:~:text=Thus%2C%20under%20federal%20law%2C%20a%20bar%20association%20can,who%20asserts%20a%20privilege%20and%20refuses%20to%20testify.

That’s the issue I wanted to pick up for this post: the ramifications of asserting the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination in civil litigation. As a bonus, we’ll discuss what an adversary can do to maximize the negative impact of that assertion on their opponent. The issue comes up more often than you’d think; we see it frequently in egregious wrongful death cases (where the defendant is trying to avoid a manslaughter prosecution), drunk driving cases, and (obviously) fraud cases. I have a handful of civil cases now where the opposing party has either already asserted the Fifth or is expected to do so.

The Fifth Amendment says that “No person. . . shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself.” As the Supreme Court has long held, “The privilege afforded not only extends to answers that would in themselves support a conviction under a federal criminal statute but likewise embraces those which would furnish a link in the chain of evidence needed to prosecute the claimant for a federal crime.” Hoffman v. United States, 341 U.S. 479, 486-487 (1951). There are rare circumstances in which a judge can deny the privilege and then compel the testimony, but that’s highly unusual. Once you assert it, your refusal to testify cannot be used against you in criminal proceedings......

One interesting point of particular relevance to Prenda Law: As Ken notes in his post summarizing the available sanctions, when a judge notices misconduct in their court, one tool they have available is the ability to refer matters to the attorney’s state bar association. Can the silence be used against them in a disciplinary proceeding? Well, there’s a case on that in the First Circuit, involving an attorney who fraudulently concealed property during a bankruptcy, then asserted her right against self-incrimination: “While refusal to waive the Fifth Amendment might increase the risk that she would be disbarred, disbarment would not result automatically and without more. Hence, she was not threatened with a penalty within the meaning of [Garrity v. New Jersey, 385 U.S. 493 (1967)] for invoking her Fifth Amendment privilege.”

Thus, under federal law, a bar association can use the assertion of the Fifth Amendment against an attorney in a disciplinary action, so long as disbarment isn’t automatic, but some state laws preclude their state courts from drawing negative inferences against a party who asserts a privilege and refuses to testify. As two corporate defense lawyers at Gibson Dunn noted back in 2010, several states have statutes or rules of evidence that forbid courts from drawing adverse inferences after a party asserts a testimonial privilege. See, e.g., Alaska R. Evid. 512(c); Ark. R. Evid. 512; Cal. Evid. Code § 913(a); Del. R. Evid. 512; Haw. Rev. Stat. § 626-1, R. 513; Idaho R. Evid. 512; Ky. R. Evid. 511; N.D. R. Evid. 512; Nev. Rev. Stat. § 27-513; Nev. Rev. Stat 49.405; N.J. R. Evid. 532; N.M. R. Evid. 11-513; Okla. Stat. Ann. §2513; Or. Rev. Stat. § 40.290; Vt. R. Evid. 512. In those states, the court has to tell the jury to not use the silence against the party. I’m sure Cicero wouldn’t approve, but those are issues for another day, and they’re state-specific.

onenote

(42,748 posts)
10. I respectfully disagree with your statement that i'm wrong
Thu Dec 2, 2021, 11:32 AM
Dec 2021

First, as the article you linked indicates, while it is permissible for adverse inferences to be drawn from the invocation of the Fifth Amendment in civil litigation, it is not required that adverse inferences be drawn and some jurisdictions expressly bar adverse inferences from being drawn.

Second, a Congressional investigation is neither a civil proceeding nor a criminal proceeding, although there is support for the conclusion that Congress may not draw negative inferences from the invocation of the Fifth Amendment by a witness. For example (and somewhat surprisingly), even Rep. Issa, with respect to Lois Lerner's invocation of the Fifth Amendment in the highly partisan hearings regarding alleged IRS bias during the Obama administration, stated that Lerner's "assertion is not to be viewed or used during this hearing to make any determination, plus or minus, as to actions that were taken [by the IRS]" -- a statement seconded by members of both parties. But even assuming that the January 6 Committee investigation is treated more as a civil proceeding, all that means is that the Committee can drawn adverse inferences from the invocation of the Fifth Amendment. It does not mean that a subsequent criminal, or quasi-criminal proceeding can then use those adverse inferences to impose a penalty.

Third, the courts have recognized that disbarment proceedings are quasi-criminal in nature. While there is case law allowing for adverse inferences to be drawn in a disbarment proceeding, the cases also indicate that adverse inferences standing alone cannot support "automatic" disbarment (as is also acknowledged in the cited article). Lawyers facing disbarment are entitled to due process protections and something more than the adverse inference is needed to find cause for disbarment. For example, a Sixth Circuit case decided this past summer confirmed that before an attorney could be disbarred based on his/her invocation of the Fifth Amendment, the disciplinary board would need "corroborating evidence to support" the inferred fact under inquiry. In other words, Clark's invocation of the Fifth Amendment before the Committee cannot, standing alone, result in his disbarment. Other evidence would be required supporting whatever inferences of misconduct are being drawn from his invocation of the privilege (assuming such inferences can be drawn).

Finally, the DC Bar has taken a strong position in favor of protecting the right against self-incrimination, even suggesting that it may be unethical in some instances for a Congressional Committee to call a witness solely for the purpose of making them repeatedly invoke the Fifth Amendment. While that wouldn't appear to be the case here, it suggests that the DC Bar isn't going to be rushing to disbar someone who invokes the Fifth Amendment before Congress. Indeed, dozens and dozens of individuals have invoked the Fifth Amendment before Congress, including some witnesses who were members of the bar. (Example: attorney Robert Treuhaft, who took the Fifth before the House Un-American Activities Committee). Yet, I can find no record of any attorney having faced disbarment for having taken the Fifth before a Congressional committee.

LetMyPeopleVote

(145,489 posts)
11. Do you have any authority for these claims
Thu Dec 2, 2021, 04:32 PM
Dec 2021

Do you really think that Jeff Clarke is not going to be disbarred? If Clarke takes the Fifth, the video and transcript will be sent to the appropriate bar associations and there is little doubt that this asshole will be disbarred.

The article cited had a great deal of what is called authority. Your opinion would be due more weight if you backed it up with authority. I found this case to be interesting https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2801775859738989336


A separate legal principle informs our analysis in this case because during questioning at his deposition, Stern repeatedly invoked his Fifth Amendment privilege against selfincrimination.

A party invoking the privilege against self-incrimination disadvantages an opposing party by preventing it from obtaining otherwise relevant information. See S.E.C. v. Suman, 684 F. Supp. 2d 378, 386 (S.D.N.Y. 2010), aff'd, 421 F. App'x 86 (2d Cir. 2011). Thus, in a civil case, a court may draw an adverse inference against a person whose invocation of the Fifth Amendment results in obstruction of discovery. See Baxter v. Palmigiano, 425 U.S. 308, 318 (1976) ("[T]he Fifth Amendment does not forbid adverse inferences against parties to civil actions when they refuse to testify in response to probative evidence offered against them . . . .&quot ; accord Marine Midland Bank v. Russo Produce Co., 50 N.Y.2d 31, 42 (1980); Steiner v. De Buono, 239 A.D.2d 708, 710 (3d Dep't), lv. denied, 90 N.Y.2d 808 (1997). Indeed, "[a]n adverse inference may be given significant weight because silence when one would be expected to speak is a powerful persuader." LiButti v. United States, 178 F.3d 114, 120 (2d Cir. 1999) (citing United States ex rel. Bilokumsky v. Tod, 263 U.S. 149, 153-54 (1923)). Courts have drawn such an inference when determining if the crime-fraud exception applies to evidence protected by the attorney-client privilege or work-product doctrine. See, e.g., Herman, 2004 WL 964104, at *7.

Stern invoked his privilege against self-incrimination in response to nearly every question asked of him during his deposition. See Deposition of Moses Stern, dated Mar. 14, 2012 (annexed as Ex. 3 to Koolyk Decl.) ("Stern Dep.&quot . By refusing to answer any questions, Stern obstructed the discovery process, which justifies drawing an inference that any answers he gave in response to the questions would have been unfavorable to him. See S.E.C. v. Benson, 657 F. Supp. 1122, 1129 (S.D.N.Y. 1987) ("By hiding behind the protection of the Fifth Amendment as to his contentions, he gives up the right to prove them. By his initial obstruction of discovery and his subsequent assertion of the privilege, defendant has forfeited the right to offer evidence disputing the plaintiff's evidence or supporting his own denials.&quot . Accordingly, plaintiff will be permitted to draw adverse inferences against Stern to support its efforts to invoke the crime/fraud exception.


I found these cases cited in the article listed above to be interesting https://www.litigationandtrial.com/2013/04/articles/attorney/pleading-the-fifth-adverse-inferences/#:~:text=Thus%2C%20under%20federal%20law%2C%20a%20bar%20association%20can,who%20asserts%20a%20privilege%20and%20refuses%20to%20testify.

In the case at issue, an adverse inference was eventually drawn. Lightspeed Media Corp. v. Smith, 761 F.3d 699, 705 (7th Cir. 2014) (“The Fifth Amendment, however, ‘does not forbid adverse inferences against parties to civil actions when they refuse to testify in response to probative evidence.’ Quoting Baxter and citing LaSalle Bank Lake View v. Seguban, 54 F.3d 387, 390 (7th Cir.1995)).

Other courts continue to apply Baxter:

“The prevailing rule [is] that the Fifth Amendment does not forbid adverse inferences against parties to civil actions when they refuse to testify in response to probative evidence offered against them[.]” Baxter v. Palmigiano, 425 U.S. 308, 318, 96 S.Ct. 1551, 47 L.Ed.2d 810 (1976). See also Hoxie v. Drug Enforcement Admin., 419 F.3d 477, 483 (6th Cir.2005). The same negative inference can, in certain circumstances, be offered against an invoking witness’s current or former employer. See, e.g., Coquina Inv. v. TD Bank, N.A., 760 F.3d 1300, 1311 (11th Cir.2014); Cerro Gordo Charity v. Fireman’s Fund Am. Life Ins., 819 F.2d 1471, 1481 (8th Cir.1987)
.

In re Polyurethane Foam Antitrust Litig., 152 F. Supp. 3d 968, 993 (N.D. Ohio 2015). As In re Polyurethane Foam reiterates, the use of an adverse inference is fact-specific:

Regardless of the invoking individual’s employment status, “the overarching concern is fundamentally whether the adverse inference is trustworthy under all of the circumstances and will advance the search for the truth.” LiButti v. United States,107 F.3d 110, 124 (2d Cir.1997). “In most circumstances silence is so ambiguous that it is of little probative force…. Silence gains more probative weight where it persists in the face of accusation, since it is assumed in such circumstances that the accused would be more likely than not to dispute an untrue accusation.” United States v. Hale,422 U.S. 171, 176, 95 S.Ct. 2133, 45 L.Ed.2d 99 (1975).


Id.

Clarke needs to be disbarred and I am confident that this asshole will be disbarred. This idiot will never be able to go back to Kirkland or any other big law firm and the RWNJ so-called think tank has also fired this asshole.

Again, do you really belive that Clarke should be allowed to remain in the profession?

I look forward to you citing some real authority for your claims

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
12. Whaaaa?
Thu Dec 2, 2021, 05:18 PM
Dec 2021

Gee whiz! Erin Burnett said it right out loud that if Jeffrey Clark repeatedly invokes his rights under the Fifth Amendment, it's going to sound damning. It. Will. Sound. Damning. And the committee, that mean bunch of meanies, is still going to make him appear under oath? That's so mean!

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