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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAlec Baldwin Should Just Keep His Mouth Shut....
IMHO I had more sympathy for him when they were saying this shooting was accidental - that somehow a loaded gun was given to him without his knowledge.
Now he's saying he didn't pull the trigger and - I'm sorry - I just don't believe him.
It looks like he's just trying to come up with a lame excuse to make himself look or feel better.
FakeNoose
(32,639 posts)... many crafty, well-paid lawyers. Take it all with a grain of salt.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)His job requires him to live a public life, which means interviews, shows, parties, etc.
His lawyers I'm sure would love for him to hole up in a cabin somewhere and watch TV all day.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,343 posts)My guess is he didn't "pull" the trigger. After cocking the gun, he barely touched the trigger. That's all it takes.
His denials are making him look like he's hiding something.
PXR-5
(522 posts)I keep having a silly image of a SNL sketch in my mind where by he is playing TFG, saying he didn't pull the trigger when he shot a guy on 5th Avenue 😆
sop
(10,190 posts)But, if the gun fired and it didn't malfunction, then he pulled the trigger. Or he could have pulled the hammer back and released it before it was fully cocked. Either way, he fired the gun.
SYFROYH
(34,170 posts)Last edited Thu Dec 2, 2021, 09:23 PM - Edit history (1)
I can believe that he believes he didnt pull the trigger especially if he accidentally slid his finger into the trigger guard and its a light trigger
Eta: i just watched the interview. He said he cocked and then dropped the hammer without pulling the trigger.
marie999
(3,334 posts)Mr.Bill
(24,300 posts)close-up of the gun being cocked? That can be a dramatic moment.
SYFROYH
(34,170 posts)Older guns used to has a half cock stop to prevent dropping the hammer too fast.
rsdsharp
(9,182 posts)The hammer can be dropped safely if it is restrained usually by the thumb to slowly lower it. But the trigger has to be pulled.
SYFROYH
(34,170 posts)rsdsharp
(9,182 posts)to load and unload the revolver. Some tried to carry at half cock as a safety measure, but its better to carry with the hammer down on an empty chamber. In most cases, the old west six-shooter was, as a practical matter, a five shooter.
taxi
(1,896 posts)sop
(10,190 posts)11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)taxi
(1,896 posts)Without a trigger guard the probability of the gun firing without Baldwin pulling the trigger changes a bit.
sop
(10,190 posts)It's essentially a "modern firearm." Colt still makes the same gun today, using modern steels, springs and other parts.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)On an old style revolver, yeah - that can make it go off if the firing pin hit the primer
taxi
(1,896 posts)So when he says he didn't pull the trigger, he didn't pull the trigger. And that's what he said.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)If you want to de-cock a single-action revolver, you have to pull the trigger and lower the hammer in a slow, controlled manner. But you have to pull the trigger.
It's possible that his thumb slipped while he was in the process of cocking the hammer but hadn't gotten it back far enough to engage the trigger. Most single-action revolvers have a "half-cock notch" to mitigate this kind of accident. The theory is that if your thumb slips before you reach half-cock, there isn't enough velocity in the falling hammer to ignite the primer; if you slip between half-cock and full-cock, the hammer will stop in the half-cock position.
If this was in fact how Baldwin's revolver fired, then either (a) this revolver had no half-cock notch, or (b) the theory is wrong, and a hammer dropping accidentally before reaching half-cock CAN ignite a primer and fire the gun.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)Load one, skip one, load four was done for a reason
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Movie was a Western. They were using a firearm of that period.
sop
(10,190 posts)taxi
(1,896 posts)a removable fastener like a rivet or screw, or were they part of the gun?
sop
(10,190 posts)The original Colt SAA revolvers, first sold in the mid-19th century, are still being manufactured today with modern steels and parts, but they function the same way. These firearms are extremely popular, often used in movies and in Cowboy Action shooting events.
taxi
(1,896 posts)should there be a faulty guard, a striped out fastener, a cracked or broken piece, or any number of things. I'm only making the argument that there are conditions where Baldwin may not have pulled the trigger.
sop
(10,190 posts)It's possible the hammer was already cocked when Baldwin was handed the gun, making the possibility of an accidental discharge much more likely. You're never supposed to cock the hammer on a single action revolver unless you're about to shoot; the trigger pull is extremely light when the hammer is cocked.
You're also not supposed to place your finger inside the trigger guard unless you intend to discharge the firearm. Most accidental discharges result from sloppy gun handling, but it's entirely possible the gun malfunctioned.
taxi
(1,896 posts)I had forgotten about being able to fire that way, and was arguing that accidental firing may also have been possible for other reasons.
There's always something else.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)Dropping the hammer on a live round could cause a discharge if the revolver wasnt mechanically sound.
There is so much that we don't know. It's easy to say he pulled the trigger - that doesn't mean he did.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)Its not a safety. He dropped the hammer.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Whether that makes any difference or not
It was a modern firearm, according to the Sheriffs office investigating is was a Pietta 1873 Colt. That is a modern reproduction of the classic colt single action army. You can't pull back the hammer part way on this revolver and let it go and have the firing pin strike the primer. There are three stages to cocking the pistol and if you let the hammer go after each stage it stops before hitting the primer. In order to fire the pistol, the hammer has to be pulled back to full cock and the trigger needs to be pulled. I'm sure Baldwin has convinced himself that he didn't pull the trigger but it's going to be pretty easy to demonstrate in a court room that the only way that pistol is going to fire is if the trigger is pulled, should the DA decide to prosecute. Baldwin should just shut up at this point.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)his finger was never on the trigger.
You mean the same assistant director who was the one who said it was a cold gun, when it was actually loaded? Would you agree that both the AD and Baldwin benefit from the narrative that a faulty gun was to blame? It will be very easy to prove if the weapon was faulty but absent that being substantiated, I don't put much credibility into either Baldwins or the AD's statements.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)While anything is possible, it's extremely unlikely, with the specific gun that was being used, that the gun was fired without the trigger being pulled. That particular gun has 3 cocking notches ont he hammer. If you pull the hammer past the first notch and let it go, it stops on the first notch and the gun does not go off. If you pull the hammer past the second notch and let it go, it stops at the second notch and the gun does not go off. If you pull it to almost full cock and let the hammer go, it stops at half cock and the gun does not go off. If you pull the hammer to full cock, the hammer locks up and can only be released by pulling the trigger.
So one of two scenarios occurred; either the gun was so broken that you could simply pull back the hammer and let it go and neither the half-cock or quarter-cock notches stopped it, or else Baldwin pulled the trigger. The first scenario would be very easy to determine and would be immediately apparent to anyone familiar with this type of weapon. If that is shown to be true, then Baldwin may be correct but I doubt that's the case, as guns used on movie sets are constantly checked over for problems and a defective hammer system would be very easy to detect. I think it's much,much more likely that Baldwin pulled the trigger while practicing his draw and has simply convinced himself that he didn't and that it's the guns fault. We shall see, as they say truth will out.
Archae
(46,328 posts)My BIL had a rifle go off when he worked the bolt, fortunately nobody was hit.
MustLoveBeagles
(11,611 posts)I was wondering if it was possible. I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt. Still it would be better for him if said nothing about this publicly.
Cha
(297,273 posts)I trust this.. unless proven otherwise.
MustLoveBeagles
(11,611 posts)I'd forgotten about the misfires on the set.
sop
(10,190 posts)And if the gun was a Colt Single Action Army replica, the type of revolver most commonly used in Westerns, it's also possible the round discharged if all six chambers were loaded, and the hammer was hit with some force from behind.
Most Colt SAA users will only load five chambers, leaving the hammer down on the empty chamber. This prevents an accidental discharge if the gun is dropped, or if the hammer is hit from behind.
NickB79
(19,246 posts)Steel case instead of brass, didn't want to chamber readily, so I tried to cycle it hard and fast. Gun discharged when I slammed the bolt home.
Threw that box of ammo in the trash and never used Russian ammo again.
Faux pas
(14,681 posts)he is an "actor" after all
Bev54
(10,052 posts)Deuxcents
(16,234 posts)LisaL
(44,973 posts)"The attorney for Rust assistant director David Halls said that his client insisted that Alec Baldwin did not pull the trigger on the gun that discharged on the set of the movie, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and injuring the movies director."
https://deadline.com/2021/12/alec-baldwin-shooting-rust-didnt-pull-trigger-1234883449/
Cha
(297,273 posts)former9thward
(32,016 posts)Did he have his eye trained on Baldwin's finger and the trigger of the gun at that exact moment? Why would he? The account does not seem credible.
Torchlight
(3,341 posts)To suggest otherwise does not seem credible.
former9thward
(32,016 posts)Torchlight
(3,341 posts)former9thward
(32,016 posts)Why would they be so interested in that? Baldwin has said they were not filming at the time.
Torchlight
(3,341 posts)I'd be a liar if I said I never looked at anyone's finger.
You of course, can dig in and say it's impossible if it suits you.
former9thward
(32,016 posts)We will see what people say when they are under oath...
Torchlight
(3,341 posts)That, like yours, holds no direct relevance to the assertion made other than filler.
Ellipsis
(9,124 posts)No offense. but I believe him.
Zeitghost
(3,862 posts)There were reports of misfires prior to his and the type of historical firearms they were using (single action revolvers) are more prone to "just going off", either by the cocked hammer dropping without a trigger pull or the hammer striking the primer while down because of a lack of a hammer block safety.
It also fits the report that they were using live ammo off set to try and diagnose and fix the issue causing the misfires.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Im sure it was an accident, whether he pulled the trigger or not.
Im assuming the bullet was confirmed to be from the old pistol he was holding.
Texasgal
(17,045 posts)It seems weird that a live round was on the set. I'm not usually someone that gets into theories... but there sure are a lot of people that do not like him... especially his depiction of Trump.
I realize this sounds nutty... So please do not pile on too hard.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)I don't think this has anything to do with sabotage.
There was an inexperienced armorer and inexperienced prop master.
Patterson
(1,530 posts)harumph
(1,900 posts)Trigger (internal) mechanism could've been worn. I had an old reproduction navy colt single action that you would
cock and it would hold temporarily - but it then would go hammer down unexpectedly. Obviously, I no longer use it.
If it was a single action revolver and it was cocked already, just handling it might cause the hammer to strike. I know some have suggested this... and I still consider it far fetched - but IMO, he may have been set up.
The armorer is ultimately responsible for making sure any guns are in excellent working order. I'm sure an
inspection of the gun will help clear things up. If the gun internals were worn - this is on the armorer
b/c there would be no reasonable expectation that it (1) was malfunctioning and (2) held a live round.
Doc Sportello
(7,522 posts)He said he pulled back the hammer but not all the way. He then said he let go and the gun went off. That is possible without pulling the trigger. Also, if i heard right, they said another person confirms the claim that he did not have his finger on the trigger.
I don't know why people are so quick to judge when they weren't there, don't know all the facts, or have knowledge of guns on movie sets, protocols. or know much about guns anyway. I think he did a good job of explaining from his point of view and, no, he doesn't need to just shut up.
uponit7771
(90,346 posts)Kaleva
(36,307 posts)Karma13612
(4,552 posts)Rethink your position if you watch the ABC special tonight.
I had been in total support of Alec leading up to this show tonight.
When I saw the ad for this interview, I was angry he would make such a claim.
THEN I WATCHED THE SHOW TONIGHT.
I understand fully what he meant.
I am fully supporting what Alec is saying.
Cha
(297,273 posts)Karma13612
(4,552 posts)MustLoveBeagles
(11,611 posts)Lunabell
(6,082 posts)And furthermore, he didn't "pull the trigger". Read what he said happened. My god, leave the poor man alone. Isn't it bad enough that Reich wingers are attacking him?
Sunsky
(1,737 posts)I agree talking to the media was not the best decision. His words will be dissected and used against him. I understand that he is a public figure and would like to clear his name but that's what lawyers and PR professionals are there for.
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)Maybe no one should answer that! LOL
But the thought that he may have been set up keeps nagging at me. He portrayed TFG on SNL so well, and hell, Trump ran for President because Obama made fun of him at the White House Correspondents dinner. Payback per chance?
Kaleva
(36,307 posts)for there to be even the slightest chance of that working.
ecstatic
(32,705 posts)I've only seen snippets, but he's opening himself up to a lot of skepticism and attacks, especially since he is an experienced actor.
When it comes to triggers and guns, it's hard to recall what your finger may have inadvertently done, that's why newbies are taught (and often forget) to keep their index finger aligned and resting on the side frame (never on the trigger). This is why I will never step foot in a gun range again. It's possible he pulled the trigger without even being aware of it.
The question that should be focused on is how and why live ammunition was on the set in the first place.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)It's virtually impossible on a reasonably modern firearm that is in good shape. When I bought a new pistol a couple of years ago (it was a new design, released only a few months ago) one of the first things I did was test that it wouldn't discharge accidentally. I emptied the pistol, cocked it, and while holding it in one hand whacked it repeatedly with a short section of a 2x4 from all directions to simulate dropping it. It stayed cocked.
Obviously, any poorly-maintained and/or worn out firearm can have mechanical failures, even a modern one.
Having said that, older designs (including freshly-made older designs) can be discharged without touching the trigger. The original revolver designs were "single action" handguns. The trigger only has a single function: release the cocked hammer. The hammer had to be cocked by the shooter, typically with the thumb. This is the kind of gun typically seen in cowboy movies.
Now, because the shooter had to cock the gun manually, it's possible for the thumb to slip, letting the hammer snap forward before the trigger mechanism has a chance to catch the hammer and hold it. The gun makers put in "half cock" and in some cases "quarter cock" notches in the mechanism to help prevent this. But if Baldwin was getting a feel for the gun and let the hammer drop before it got to the half-cock notch, then the gun might go off. Of, if the gun was poorly made or worn out, the half-cock notches may not have worked as intended.
Since a full cock of the hammer also rotates the cylinder, it's possible that if he was doing some repeated partial-cocking and letting the hammer drop each time, he was actually tapping the same cartridge in the same spot over and over again until it went off.
It's also possible that Baldwin had fully-cocked the revolver. Well, if you do that the only way to release the hammer without firing the gun is to hold the hammer back with your thumb while you squeeze the trigger, then gently lower the hammer down to the rest position. If he slipped on that operation, the gun also might have gone off.
I will note that with modern revolver designs it is impossible for the hammer to touch the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled back. The firing pin in mounted in the frame of the revolver instead of protruding from the hammer, and it is shrouded from the hammer. A steel bar called a "transfer bar" is controlled only by the trigger. When the trigger is pulled back far enough (just before the trigger releases the hammer) the transfer bar fills in the gap between the hammer and the frame-mounted firing pin so the energy from the hammer gets to the firing pin. If the trigger isn't pulled back far enough, the dropped hammer will not be able to reach the firing pin because the transfer bar isn't in position.
There are other factors with the accident that may involve the ammunition as well. There are three kinds of ammunition possible: dummy or inert rounds, blank rounds, and live rounds.
Dummy rounds look real but have no primers or gunpowder. Usually there's a hole drilled into the side of the case to show the lack of gun powder. They are used for close up camera shots.
Blank rounds have a charge of powder but no bullet. Typically the case is crimped closed. These rounds make the "bang", but are not lethal unless the press the muzzle of the gun up against somebody. I believe this happened once; some stunt guy killed himself while fooling around with a blank gun. Held it up to his head and pulled the trigger, and the shock wave killed him.
Live rounds are the real deal: bullets and powder.
Supposedly the crew was using the revolver to shoot live rounds recreationally when off the clock. If dummy rounds and live rounds got mixed up, that could be what caused the death and injury. Baldwin should have known what was in the gun, but it's also possible that he was instructed poorly or incorrectly. He's an actor, not a gun user. I don't expect him to really know about guns any more than I expect Tom Cruise to really know how to fly an F-14.
But Baldwin is not just an actor on the set; he's also a producer of the movie. If another actor had discharged the gun and killed one and injured another, he'd still be on the hook for the shitty way the production was being run and the general incompetence of the set armorer.
Regardless, the gun is in evidence and can be analyzed to figure out if it working properly, and to figure out exactly all the ways that gun can discharge a cartridge.
Carlitos Brigante
(26,501 posts)of those accidental shootings where you either get yourself or the person standing in front of you. I don't know shit about guns (other than hanging out with some jackasses back in the day, who shouldn't have had them to begin with), but this makes sense to me.
librechik
(30,674 posts)save that for your deposition. And the tongue slip about not feeling guilt. Wow. Where's my lawyer.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)And he and that ridiculous wife parading around just to get pap attention.
I did have sympathy for him, but now I just think hes very foolish.
lame54
(35,292 posts)xmas74
(29,674 posts)It's his mind's way of protecting him from the overwhelming guilt he feels.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)That said, while I'm familiar with the statements of those who've said that they'd have 2x checked (Clooney), if an actor is handed a firearm by a prop master or armorer on a set, and told "cold gun" in the hearing of others, the actor has a reasonable presumption there is no live ammo in the firearm. Most really bad accidents have multiple causes, and this sounds like that. The armorer was new. Articles have suggested live rounds may have been comingled with dummy rounds. And Baldwin's handling of the prop/weapon may have been questionable.
Kaleva
(36,307 posts)If you are going to be holding a gun, get training from a reputable person on the basics of gun safety.
If you think gun safety is someone else's responsibility, then don't hold a gun.
If you are with someone who has a gun and they think gun safety is someone else's responsibility, get out of there.