Parents of Michigan high school shooting suspect charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughte

[underpants]

Parents of Michigan high school shooting suspect charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/12/03/oxford-high-school-shooting-suspect-parents-charged/

Prosecutors said Friday they would file charges against the parents of the student accused of fatally shooting classmates at a Michigan high school.

James and Jennifer Crumbley, the parents of 15-year-old Ethan, will be charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter, Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said. Authorities say the teenager killed four students and wounded seven people at his high school Tuesday, using a semi-automatic handgun purchased by his father in the deadliest school shooting in more than three years.

[lapfog_1]

1. good!

Hope they get life without parole.

[Dial H For Hero]

5. I presume they won't get life w/o parole for involuntary manslaughter.

[AndyS]

17. Well, at least his gun wasn't damaged. nt

[Demsrule86]

30. Yeah well maybe someday in a United States that cares more for kids than guns, these sort of

actions will warrant such a penalty.

[Dial H For Hero]

48. Life without parole for involuntary manslaughter?

Never going to happen.

[Takket]

64. true, but now that they have become fugatives......

that will get added to the charges. they are in DEEP now.

[Demsrule86]

74. I was thinking that too.

[Demsrule86]

73. Probably not but hopefully the parents will do significant jail time and then sued into bankruptcy.

They are culpable.

[Progressive Jones]

81. They will likely be bankrupt before being sued. nt

[Demsrule86]

83. I have no sympathy for parents that buy a disturbed kid a gun and take him shooting.

[Tetrachloride]

2. I get the impression that the evidence is being tightly held for a while

[crickets]

3. Good. Make those charges stick. nt

[BlackSkimmer]

4. I wonder if they've been taken into custody yet?

Anybody know?

[Cracklin Charlie]

6. I bet they weren't expecting that!

Serious charges.

[Arkansas Granny]

7. Good. Now, how about charging those individuals who left loaded firearms where children could

access them and kill their siblings or themselves? I think the same charges should apply.

[Johnny2X2X]

12. I think they gave him the gun

I think this was bought for him by his dad, he didn't have to steal it, they let him have it.

The dad called police 2 hours after the shooting to report that he thinks his kid stole his gun and used it in the shooting. He was trying to cover his rear, and I'd bet he's going to try to get the kid to say he stole the gun from them and it was adequately secure. I mean, the kid is going to prison for life, might as well lie to keep mom and dad out of prison.

But the prosecutor isn't stupid, likely he already has all the evidence he needs to nail the parents.

[aeromanKC]

44. I believe I saw where the Mom refers to gun as: his gun (referencing the boy)

[wnylib]

46. I haven't come across any sites that

say the parents gave the gun to the kid. Where did you find that info?

EDIT: I just heard on NPR that the parents gave him the gun. NPR also reported more about the meeting the parents had with school representatives. Students had reported seeing him on a comouter at school looking up ammunition info. A teacher found a sketch of a gun that he did in class, with a note saying, "I can't stop thinking about it. Help me."

So the school called the parents in.

If I were the parent of one of the dead or wounded students, I would probably lose it so completely that I'd want to kill them. I oppose vigilantism and violence. But losing a child in these circumstances would be so unbearable that I could understand if someone snapped. Not right, but understandable.

[Johnny2X2X]

49. Mother texted saying it's his gun

Said it was his Christmas present and they were going shooting with it.

[wnylib]

50. Yes, I heard an NPR report on it

shortly after submitting my post. See my edit for more on it.

[LeftInTX]

31. I wish they would - at the very least it should be child endangerment

Even if it's just a slap on the wrist...anything....

[radicalleft]

8. Not sure if that will stick

A person is guilty of involuntary manslaughter if the prosecutor can prove all of the following elements beyond a reasonable doubt (Michigan Criminal Jury Instruction 16.10):

First, that the individual caused the death of the victim, that is, that the victim died as a result of the individual’s act.
Second, in doing the act that caused the victim’s death, the individual acted in a grossly negligent manner OR in doing the act that caused the victim’s death, the individual intended to injure the victim. For example, an individual who commits assault and battery with the intent to inflict injury but instead causes an unintended death, then this amounts to, at least, involuntary manslaughter. People v Datema, 448 Mich 585; 533 NW2d 272 (1995).
Third, that the individual caused the death without lawful excuse or justification.

https://www.monroecountylawyers.com/blog/2020/03/what-are-the-grounds-for-involuntary-manslaughter-in-michigan/

[ck4829]

11. Probably has something to do with how easy it was for Ethan to get the gun used

It wasn’t secured
Ammo wasn’t secured
They didn’t care to mention guns or lied

[radicalleft]

20. I guess I'm wondering if it can be proved

that the parents "caused" the deaths?

[Demsrule86]

28. sure it can...had they not bought the guns and left them around or given them to junior...four

kids would still be alive.

[radicalleft]

40. I get that...

But if you read the law, it pertains to the person who caused the crime, not who provided support in any way

[ck4829]

42. They went into that house, the probably discovered things in there that provide evidence to that

Did their willful INaction play a part and was there a flagrant disregard of gun safety that led to this? We’ll find out.

[radicalleft]

43. That's all we can do

Wait and see

[wnylib]

51. There is a precedent for this in Michigan.

In 2020, the parents of a 6 year old were charged after their child took their gun from the shoebox where they kept it, took it to school, and killed a classmate.

So it must be doable.

[treestar]

67. what happened to that case?

It could be on appeal. It says they were charged, but were they convicted?

[wnylib]

77. Don't know. I came across mention of it

when reading about the Oxford shooting.

[wnylib]

47. Their negligence caused it

[ecstatic]

65. Even if the guns are "secured"

Every parent with guns should assume that their kids, especially teens, can access them with ease. Or they know the hiding place. They might pretend like they don't, but they do.

[Demsrule86]

29. As I read your post, I think all criteria are met.

Have you considered the children who died and their parents or is it just your concern for gun rights that caused you to make two very similar posts? Just asking.

[radicalleft]

41. Holy fuck!

that's what you get from my post!?

I want a charge that guarantees conviction, not something that can be argued away by reasonable doubt! You own an apology!

[Demsrule86]

72. I think the charge is appropriate. And I believe the criteria has been met so we shall see...

[treestar]

68. This issue is whether the legal standard applies

one does not have to be "concerned for gun rights" to see the issue. You are using emotions only.

[Mysterian]

53. Gross negligence

Seems like a good case to me.

[treestar]

66. The first part would be tough to prove

in that their act did not cause the death - the shooting did. It would apply in a case of an accidental shooting, because there the shooting was what caused the death. Their negligent act was not to lock up a gun, and there is a break in cause from what they did and what their son did.

[BlackSkimmer]

9. I don't know the party of that prosecutor, but I found her impressive. nt

[greatauntoftriplets]

13. She's a Democrat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_McDonald_(politician)

[BlackSkimmer]

14. Lol! Well good to hear!

She didn’t pull punches; just one tough prosecutor.

[greatauntoftriplets]

18. She's good.

I hope that she's successful in prosecuting the parents. They need to have consequences for their culpability.

[Celerity]

15. She is a member of the Democratic Party.

https://tinyurl.com/4mdb2683

Karen Diane McDonald is an American lawyer and politician currently serving as the prosecuting attorney of Oakland County, Michigan, and formerly as a judge on Michigan's 6th Circuit Court in Oakland County. She is a member of the Democratic Party.


2020 election and Oakland County Prosecutor

In April 2019, McDonald took the unusual step of stepping down from her judgeship, announcing her intention to run for the Democratic nomination for Oakland County Prosecuting Attorney in the 2020 election, thus forcing the third-term incumbent prosecutor Jessica Cooper into a highly-contested primary election. McDonald campaigned on a progressive, reformist platform focused on limiting incarceration for non-violent crimes, and ensuring prosecutorial decisions are informed by racial justice considerations. McDonald’s campaign was endorsed by 87 individuals and organizations, including the Detroit Free Press, Detroit News, Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Lieutenant Governor Garlin Gilchrist, Attorney General Dana Nessel, Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy, and numerous local Democratic Party elected officials, party leaders, organizations and associations. On August 4, 2020, McDonald defeated incumbent prosecutor Jessica Cooper with two-thirds of all ballots cast, claiming the Democratic nomination for Oakland County Prosecuting Attorney and advancing to the general election. On November 3, 2020, McDonald was elected Oakland County Prosecutor, defeating her Republican opponent and ranking as the top vote-getter among all county-wide candidates.



Judge Karen McDonald presides over first same-sex adoption in State of Michigan

[Celerity]

10. good, lock those gunner MAGAts up

https://archive.vn/rRL9y

[Aristus]

21. Being Italian means you're not racist?

[Demsrule86]

25. Her so called law abiding ass spawned a murderous scumbag whom she enabled to own

and use dangerous weapons...enjoy prison.

[Progressive Jones]

82. Irrefutable evidence of being Trump Trash. nt

[Walleye]

16. It's not that they can't get ahead. It's that they were afraid undeserving people might succeed

LBJ had it right. Give them somebody to look down on.

[WarGamer]

19. Is there any precedent for parents being charged with these charges re: unsecured firearms?

[Demsrule86]

23. Who cares...if your kid takes your car out and kill someone... and you gave him/her access,

you are liable. I want a precedent. I want these parents whom I consider irresponsible charged, convicted, and then sued into extreme poverty.

[WarGamer]

37. Read the involuntary manslaughter law in MI...

The prosecutors are making a statement.

[LiberatedUSA]

45. You think is for show?

Or do you think there is a realistic chance these or lesser charges will succeed?

[Demsrule86]

24. consider parents were jailed because their kids skipped school.

[Zeitghost]

32. I don't believe so

At least not when there were not specific laws making that a crime.

I think they will plead to some lesser charges of negligence or child endangerment if they did allow their son to have the gun. But from my reading of the crimes they were charged with, I just don't see how they fit and while I want the parents to be held responsible, I don't support prosecutors overcharging just to look tough.

[wnylib]

54. Yes, 2020 case in Michigan.

6 year old child got parents' gun from the shoenox where they kept it, took it to school, shot and killed a classmate. Parents were charged.

[LeftInTX]

63. It was in 2000!

In 2000, a Flint-area man pleaded no contest to involuntary manslaughter and was sentenced to two years in prison. A 6-year-old boy who was living with him had found a gun in a shoebox and killed a classmate at school.

It's on NPR, but can't find the darn link...too many tabs open..LOL

[wnylib]

78. Oops. I read about it whej looking up

the oxford shooting and read the date wrong. Thanks for setting it straight.

[WarGamer]

71. Wow... didn't know that.

[Demsrule86]

22. Great news...this has to stop...parents arming mentally ill kids or just plain delinquents.

[msfiddlestix]

26. Yes, This is a good thing.

[lindysalsagal]

27. Now go after the gun sellers and we might get ahold of violent crime in this country.

[Dial H For Hero]

38. What exactly do you propose?

[lindysalsagal]

57. If guns are only for hunting, then city weapons should require insurance against homicide

Make them so expensive to own privately, that they are no longer around. Open rural government arms lock-ups where you sign out your deer or duck rifle and use it outside city limits. Then, make it illegal to own guns in cities. The hunters get to hunt, and children and other criminals can't access the guns.

[Dial H For Hero]

79. But they aren't only for hunting, and in any case the chances of such a proposal

becoming law are precisely zero.

[Demsrule86]

75. Put vin numbers on every f'ing gun and require registration...end the gun show loop hole and

enforce existing laws...also stop letting gun sellers 'lose' inventory...everything must be accounted for. It would be a start.

[Dial H For Hero]

80. Guns already have serial numbers. As for registration, I believe that it could pass constitutional

muster with the right Supreme Court. At this time, this isn’t that court. I could see universal background checks possibly passing at some point in the near future, (depending upon the congressional make up), but getting universal registration through Congress? Extremely unlikely.

[Demsrule86]

84. They need to registered just like cars...and in time I believe we can get this...while it is not a

voting issue for our side and the majority, it will be.

[Dial H For Hero]

85. Certainly not with the current Congressional makeup.

[SYFROYH]

33. That is a big charge and it will be interesting to see if it sticks

I thought involuntary manslaughter required a more direct action, but perhaps the evidence is there to support it.

It might be a pressure tactic to compel the parents to cooperate for a lesser charge.

I was expecting something different. Something like an aiding and abetting charge.

[UnderThisLaw]

34. The thought

of these two serving time for what happened is apparently making some posters here nervous, judging by the replies

[Demsrule86]

76. Yeah and I find it sickening...if you own a gun than act responsibly.

[GusBob]

35. "LOL I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught"

Depraved indifference

The other evidence presented in the article is damning

[arlyellowdog]

39. I think you got it right

The parents refused to search the backpack or take him out of school. This is not just a horrible case of parents enabling the kid to kill. The mother orchestrated the murders. The kid wrote he wanted to die and the mother was such a gun psycho she thought a gun could empower him.

[LeftInTX]

56. The backpack thing is weird and don't know if parents had an obligation

I was a parent who searched my son's backpack and it turned into a legal mess.

I did it on my own.

[wnylib]

55. It never occurred to anyone to check

that backpack?

Regarding the text not to get caught, sounds like she was referring to him searching online for ammo while in class. like, it's ok to be doing that search as long as he could get away with it.

[LeftInTX]

58. That would have been the school's responsibility.

On campus it's the school's responsibility and not the parent's.

Been there. Done that. Preferably in the presence of law enforcement.

What you have with a gun in a backpack is a crime and a crime scene. So if the parents search, then all of a sudden you've messed up any criminal charges.

Also if the school searches without law enforcement it could be an issue. Maybe nowadays with video of everything it wouldn't be. But back in the day, the school police officer needed to be there if they felt the backpack contained criminal evidence. (In my son's case, he had an illegal weapon, chinese star, in his backpack)

[wnylib]

61. Yes, I know that it's the school's

responsibility. I was wondering why no one at the school called for police presence and a search of the kid, his locker, and his backpack since the school was aware of his online search for ammo and his drawings, which were the purpose of the meeting with the parents.

[Tommymac]

52. Which is more important - Gun Rights or Lives?

Ask yourself.

[LeftInTX]

60. Lives

But we also have criminal justice system.

The shooter is gonna be guilty and pay with life in prison.

We may hate the parents and they probably did everything we are accusing them of. Hopefully, the charges stick.

[Tommymac]

62. Agreed. But the Justice system needs reformed if Gun Rights are more important then Human Lives.

Perhaps I speak for a majority viewpoint...of coarse in a country run by the minority.

Or perhaps not.

[Takket]

59. it's almost like our country's obsession with gun culture......

Last edited Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:44 PM - Edit history (1)

is causing more harm than good.



you raise people around violent tools (and are completely irresponsible about how you do it) and hey, shockingly, they do violent things.

sure these parents thought they were "real americans"

sure they though the gubmint would never oppress their kid

sure they thought the 2nd amendment is the most important one.

now 4 kids are dead, and they have abandoned their child who is about to litigate (and lose) in court in a trial that will lead to a 15 year old being locked up until he dies.

[GoodRaisin]

69. What a tragedy. It is despicable what the NRA, Republican Party and greedy lying

power hungry RW politicians i.e. Donald Trump and Wayne LaPierre and Fox News have done to create the culture within this horror can happen and continue to survive. All for their own personal wealth and power. They propagandized this family. Now four children are dead because of it and another kid’s life and family are ruined.

Watching this should make every American vomit.

Yes the child and the parents are accountable, but the gun lobby and those who profit from it and continue to profit from it have created this monster, and they did it knowing the grief it would bring to American families. I can’t say what I think the the profiteers from this mess deserve to get. I hope they are enjoying their blood money and I hope someday they will have to atone for it all.

I have to turn it off now. I’ve heard enough and it is just making me ill.