How broken is our democracy?

[kentuck]

Is it beyond repair?

It is difficult to imagine so much damage could be done to democracy and our institutions in just 4 years.

But, there was little to nothing that was not damaged during the Trump reign.

We recall the damage that was done to our State Department, as Trump bad-mouthed our allies and praised our enemies. We remember the attrition and the turnover in the Department, beginning with the hiring and firing of Rex Tillerson. It was chaotic.

Also, we recall the choice of Generals that went thru the Defense Department and how they tried to please and appease Trump, as our country was being threatened from inside. And how we ended up with an "acting" Secretary that was willing to do whatever Trump wanted.

There were few corners of the government that were not corrupted in the last four years.

The Justice Department was savagely destroyed, by Trump and his flunkie, Bill Barr. It is still broken, although Merrick Garland is attempting to put it back together.

The Homeland Security and the National Security apparatus, along with the CIA, were nothing but tools for the wanna-be dictator in the White House.

So, the demands for action from these different Departments may be a bit premature. The severe damage that was done may not be so easy to repair.

We may be better off to start from scratch and rebuild these institutions?

[uponit7771]

1. J6 was *WORSE* than 911, the seriousness of the response from 911 attack didn't leave people

... guessing wtf the federal government was going to do nearly a year later.

The GQP even used 911 in the next election to to label democrats as sympathetic to the people who attacked us and ***KEPT*** congress in the year they were supposed to lose it seeing they won the presidency.

The J6 attack is still happening in the form of vote denial and nullification, I would like the federal response to indicated some serious shit is going down.

I don't see it, that's how fucked up the democracy is now

[Bernardo de La Paz]

2. Attack from within trumps attack from outside. . . . . nt

[gab13by13]

10. I have been hard on DOJ,

My point is that it seems to me that DOJ waits for referrals from the select committee which plays into the hands of the traitors, delay, delay.

This latest whistleblower gave his 16 page report to the select committee, why couldn't he give a copy to the FBI, why not cut out the middle man?

As far as the anti-democratic voter/elections laws being passed in the states, IMO, that's on Chuck Schumer. The fascist SC gutted the voting rights act so DOJ had to wait for laws to be passed before it acted, Chuck Schumer did not have to wait. If I were Schumer I would have carved up S1 into a dozen smaller bills and brought every one up for a vote one after the other rapid fire, and when the GQP voted down every sensible bill I would have gone to Joe Manchin and told him I was voting on a carve out for the filibuster to save our democracy. I would have told Manchin, you are either voting for democracy or for a generation of autocracy. Maybe that tactic would have failed but I see no other option.

[kentuck]

13. Is it possible that a big part of the FBI was supportive of the insurrectionists?

And the leadership was willing to turn the other way as the attempted coup developed under their noses?

How do we know the FBI is not part of the problem?

[gab13by13]

26. I don't think so,

Some Capitol police and other law enforcement officials may have been complicit. This latest whistleblower who called out 2 generals for lying to Congress about why the guard was not deployed sooner should bea big deal. DOJ needs to get involved, pushing everything on the select committee is bs, DOJ shouldn't have to have referrals to act on its own. Getting to the bottom of why the Guard was not deployed for 3 hours can possibly go right up the ladder to the CIC, his actions were incriminating.

[kentuck]

30. My understanding is that the FBI had advance information also.

I find it a bit peculiar that Trump has not attacked Christopher Wray as he has many others.

If the FBI is resisting full cooperation, then it would make Merrick Garland's job much more difficult. I do not know that is happening but I would not be surprised.

[uponit7771]

20. +1, "IMO, that's on Chuck Schumer." Pelosi keeps the house mostly together and getting shit done

... but for some reason we're still pussy footing around with Manchin !!

Why hasn't Schumer asked him WTF he wants related to Biden's agenda and just went and voted on things, even peace meal as you describe, to progress something further before elections?

This is some scary shit, if the GQP take over both congressional chambers there's no way they're going to give up power again.

They'll make it impossible for people to vote like they've done in Texas

[gab13by13]

28. You bet,

If they take over the House in 2022 the House investigations go away. Jim Jordan will impeach president Biden and go after every other vocal Democrat. If they take back the Senate the filibuster will be gone in a week.

The traitors realize what went wrong with the 1st coup, they waited too long to contest a valid election. They have since put their traitors in swing states so that they will send their own chosen electors to the convention. People say they can't overrule the vote of the people, oh yeah, those people had better read what it says about sending electors, every state isn't the same. People say it will be appealed to the SC, bwahahaha, good luck with that. The SC already screwed Al Gore and it will do it again if necessary.

[uponit7771]

32. +1, " the filibuster will be gone in a week." and people still think Moscow Mitch gives a damn about

... "decorum" etc if he can enact more voter denial and nullification so the GQP keeps congress he doesn't have to worry about "what if dems win" consequences of getting rid of the filibuster ... there wont be any "dems win" any longer.

I've seen these things historically the threat isn't real to some people until its slapping them upside the head.

[Johnny2X2X]

3. We're going to lose our Democracy

I no longer think it can be saved. And it's been in the works for decades.

Republicans can no longer win fair elections, so they decided to do away with fair elections. Trump will be installed in 2024.

[Irish_Dem]

9. I think it is at least a 50-50 chance that you are right.

Probably higher odds.

[Bucky]

4. For years Republicans have pushed the rhetoric that Dems are unamerican

90% of that was posing, building resistance to Democratic ideas. But they shouldn't be surprised when significant factions within their party start taking the hyperbole seriously and start taking violent action

In sociology we study how in a deviant subculture leadership within the deviant group usually goes to whoever expresses the most extreme form of deviance. This is why fanatics take over religions and why PETA types take over animal rights groups and why the most violent drug dealers take over the gangs and why Trump tool over the Republican party.

The Republicans started deviating from American small-d democratic norms two generations ago. Trumpism is a natural result of that deviation

[kentuck]

12. Do the Democrats have the wrong strategy at this time?

Instead of focusing on "Build Back Better" and economic conditions of the country, should they be more focused on saving the democracy and protecting the right to vote? Do they have their priorities reversed?

Are they out of touch?

[uponit7771]

22. If dems had adequate messaging mechanics they would do both; BBB and save the democracy stoking

... with save the democracy seeing the J6 threat is real and giving hope for a better by BBB.

The biggest failings of dem message mechanics is to act as if they have no reach in communities of color, they do and the GQP proved it in 2020 in Miami Dade and South Texas via radio.

People focus on rural radio so much the urban radio where CoC listen to are nearly ignored except by the GQP, they mud stomped us in those areas because we didn't show up with a message.

We could just flood those areas with BBB benefits and fear of MAGA take over

Could you imagine if Obama stoked an attack on the capital building as Trump was coming into power ?!

[gab13by13]

29. I agree that controlling the narrative,

is extremely important, but American oligarchs own and manage the MSM. Democrats need to act to force the narrative into the news. It's hard when the MSM isn't on your side.

[uponit7771]

34. The M$M is less of a controlling medium now and we can start our own like the GQP has. We also

... need to work the refs more, the WP article on bias against Biden was gob smacking. We can make it known the M$M are not being fair frequently

[Celerity]

6. this will likely only be possible post kinetic civil war:

We may be better off to start from scratch and rebuild these institutions

or IF the Blue states secede and are allowed to do so peacefully


I predicate all this, of course, on the fate of our democracy being perma flushed via the Rethugs winning control in 2022 and 2024 (including POTUS and both chambers)


IF that happens, then the answer to your first question

How broken is our democracy?

Is it beyond repair?

is broken beyond repair

[gab13by13]

11. Exactly what Putin wants.

[Celerity]

15. Putin exploited pre existing divisions to a degree I'm sure even shocked him in terms of its success

Fucking trainwreck.

[Amishman]

7. as broken as the people that comprise it are divided

The root cause of all of this is an irreconcilable and rapidly widening cultural divide.

We have two separate visions for America; one a suburban rural Christian / Western based capitalist monoculture. The other urban-centric multicultural socialist/capitalist hybrid. The divide has grown wide enough there is almost no common ground remaining.

[Omnipresent]

8. We need more Republicans like Liz Cheney, that believes in upholding our constitution.

There’s too many on the right, that are willing to to convert our democracy to a dictatorship.
The spreading of conspiracy theories, lies and changing voting laws, smacks of what the nazi’s did in reconciling their need to rule with absolute power.

[CrackityJones75]

14. No it isn't and we need to stop raising this question.

Saying that we need to protect and strengthen our democracy is one thing. Asking or in some cases declaring that it is broken is not helping. That creates apathy. Apathy will ensure the continued demise of our democracy.

[kentuck]

16. I don't think we have to worry so much about "creating apathy"...

It is already here. We need to figure out what to do about it.

It's too late to run and hide, in my opinion.

We need to confront it head-on.

[CrackityJones75]

18. 2018 and 2020 were good signs.

Not all is lost until we give up.

[kentuck]

23. In 2020, Joe Biden was chosen because he was thought to have best chance against Trump.

That was proven correct.

But his election was not about some other great vision or a revolution for Democratic ideas.

It was a desperate act to prevent a dictator from continuing his destruction of our democracy.

[CrackityJones75]

25. Revolution of ideas rarely get people elected.

They do make for great soundbytes and attack dogs against the party however.

[CrackityJones75]

27. Also...

Ever notice the word revolution contains the word evolution?

[gab13by13]

21. You should have listened to Sheldon Whitehouse last night,

I think he was on Chris Hayes, he pretty much said our democracy is owned by dark money in politics. The GQP doesn't even have an agenda, no platform. The platform of the GQP is to do what a handful of American oligarchs tell it to do. It is out in the open, ALEC has been writing legislation for the GQP for decades. ALEC is funded by American oligarchs.

Dare I say this, maybe I should ask it, why is Senator Manchin not supporting president Biden's signature agenda? The American people voted for president Biden because he ran on what is in BBB.

[gab13by13]

17. Sheldon Whitehouse nailed it,

America has a handful of oligarchs who fund groups like the Federalist Society and dozens more who worked to make our SC fascist. These oligarchs own politicians who do their bidding, gutting regulations. These oligarchs own and manage the MSM which is used to radicalize millions of Americans. These oligarchs do a better job than Osama Bin laden could have ever imagined. We don't have satisfactory laws to counter domestic terrorism which is what we are facing right now.

If Donald Trump runs in 2024 it really doesn't matter if he truly wins or loses, either way our democracy will be left in tatters. The Electoral college should have been repealed 100 years ago, there are too many loopholes in it. What other country doesn't elect its leader by popular vote, democratic country?

Too bad we couldn't indict a few of the American oligarchs who financed the coup to bring down our democracy. President Obama said in his SOTU that Citizens United would result in a handful of oligarchs being able to put unlimited amounts of money to tear apart our democracy, to buy an autocratic government, he was right, fascist Justice Alito was wrong when he mouthed, "not true," back at president Obama.

If our only strategy going into the next elections is GOTV, we are in a heap of trouble.

[kentuck]

19. Whitehouse has put the puzzle pieces together.

Our democracy has failed in so many ways.

[Elessar Zappa]

24. The ONLY way to defeat them is by voting.

There is no other solution unless you want violence.

[gab13by13]

31. Not so sure about that.

I live in Pa. and for decades more people vote Democratic than Republican but because of gerrymandering Republican keep gaining seats.

If president Biden wins in 2024 what do you think will happen next? Do you believe there won't be violence?

[Elessar Zappa]

33. No, I actually don't think there will

be widespread violence. I do think that incidents of domestic terror could go up but I don’t believe for a second that the yahoos could get organized enough to start a civil war.

[kentuck]

35. I cannot imagine an 82-year old man running for President but...

..you are absolutely right about the gerrymandering.

It could get to the point where they would put almost every Democrat into one Congressional District and reserve all the other Districts in the state for Republicans, even though Democrats might outnumber them in voters? It's similar to the old Stalinist tactic of "who counts the votes, not who votes".

[gab13by13]

36. Texas already did that

with Sheila Jackson Lee and Al Greene.

[kentuck]

37. Yep.

And that is why Garland and the DOJ made their statement yesterday.

It has gotten out of control.