First "defund the police" and now giving the right to vote to non-citizens.

[Goodheart]

I'm sorry, but this is just ill-advised if we want to hang on to power:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/york-city-poised-give-voting-rights-noncitizens-81598723

[NurseJackie]

1. Good lord. No. (Whoever keeps coming up with idiotic ideas and slogans like that needs to stop.)

[AZProgressive]

2. Democrats are scared of police unions

All it is cutting the police budget and using the funds on social programs.

[nycbos]

7. It's stupid slogan that cost us big in 2020.

We lost many down ballot races because of it. A lot of people voted for Biden and voted Republican down ballot.

[AZProgressive]

8. I haven't seen any evidence of that

Biden favored more funding and BLM got out the vote in key cities such as Milwaukee, Atlanta, and Philadelphia.

A Phoenix police officer threatened to kill the Phoenix mayor so I look at it like police can say or do what they want but we are critical when it comes to abolition activists who BTW aren’t changing their minds.

[nycbos]

10. Jim Clyburn has mentioned it.

Last edited Tue Dec 7, 2021, 05:04 PM - Edit history (1)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214504861

While no Democrat in Congress actually supported it a couple Twitter activists started a hashtag and Republicans successfully linked many Democrats to it and Democrats didn't do enough to push back against the bull shit and allowed it to define them.

[AZProgressive]

15. I follow Mariame kaba

Aside from her political positions she is a really good person. I bought her book We Do This Til We Free US and she wrote the NYT op-Ed and she is not changing her mind. Even Colin Kaepernick published some of her work. I’m not dumping her in favor of police unions.

[nycbos]

32. I said nothing about supporting police unions.

I have a very low opinion of police unions.

To make the changes that need to be made is going to cost money. It is disingenuous to say otherwise. It's just as disingenuous to say that you're going to Bring factory jobs back.

Forget about politics for a moment about abolishing police is just downright idiotic. it's such a fringe position.

Look at the New York City mayoral election. If you look at Brooklyn Eric Adams won majority black neighborhoods in Brooklyn that have not been gentrified.

Maya Wiley won the gentrified majority black neighborhoods that are becoming majority white. That suggests to me at least that white hipsters were more attracted to Wiley's message on public safety.. Adams won the neighborhoods where gun violence is rising the most.

As the mayor elect said "people on social media don't pick a candidate people on Social Security pick a candidate."

[AZProgressive]

37. I want to see some changes

People with Untreated Mental Illness 16 Times More Likely to Be Killed By Law Enforcement

https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/key-issues/criminalization-of-mental-illness/2976-people-with-untreated-mental-illness-16-times-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-law-enforcement-

I’m a retired veteran on disability so this is more of a life or death situation for me. First police show up before the paramedics they actually have to decide if it is safe for the paramedics but having the wrong cops in those situations. I want to defund that part of the police department and have medical professionals to deal with mental health crisis.

If you think the cops are necessary because they are mentally I’ll they actually more likely than the general population to be victims of violence and I have.

The Myth of Violence and Mental Illness

https://cmhadurham.ca/finding-help/the-myth-of-violence-and-mental-illness/

Off topic we can’t do anything about gun control either because people tend to scapegoat mentally I’ll despite what the statistics show.

Mariame Kaba helped out prisoners during the pandemic — I would not want to go to prison during a coronavirus - so I have a lot of respect for her.

Aside from all that there are statistics that show police are more likely to kill minorities which is something I would like to change. Don’t care if this is unpopular for 15 years or whatever I’m going to find a way to get it done.

[brush]

49. The evidence is staring you in the face. Our majority...

in the House when from nearly twenty to four because of it. Some reps openly criticized AOC and the squad for championing defund the police...the stupidest, vote-losing slogan ever, ever.

[AZProgressive]

50. The phrase defund was borrowed so many times for different causes

If it was a bad slogan they wouldn’t have used it ever. Why doesn’t Biden support something popular like cannabis legalization? Instead Biden proposed shooting them in the leg which is dumb and came directly from Biden. At least defunding or abolishing is a solution.

[brush]

53. "If it was a bad slogan they wouldn't have used it ever."

Seriously? It is a bad slogan and it got used and cost us votes because it literally means "no funds for police", which plays right into the hands of right wingers who couldn't wait to say, "see, I told you those Democrats are out to destroy the nation, how can a society function without law and order."

And it scares the shit out of large swathes of voters, both blue and red. I don't see why that's so hard for its proponents to see. It's stupidity is as plain as day.

[AZProgressive]

54. The insurrection itself triggered my PTSD

I also have major depressive disorder with psychotic features (risperidone works fine for me) and the far right is really bad for my disability.

I also posted those with untreated mental illness are 16x more likely to be killed by police so while some are worried about losing voters I just want to live so I want to defund the part of the police department that deals with mental health crisis.

I’m frieghtened by these statistics so I favor defunding or abolishingincluding when it comes to the Prison Industrial Complex — the US locks up more people than any other country so I would like to change that.

I’m surprised that cutting massive police budgets is so controversial but I’m not surprised black feminists tend to be the best advocates for defunding problematic police departments.

[brush]

58. I'm black and I know "defund the police" is the worst wording...

ever. If you favor "reallocating police funds", that should be the wording, not defund the police.

Look up the meaning of defund in the dictionary. It actually means "no funds". It doesn't mean reallocate funds. It's the worst messaging ever and should never have been used. Some demonstrator with no market sense or training yelled it out at a demonstration and others unwisely took it and ran with it.

Marketing and sloganeering are important and should not be done in a slap dash manner. It cost us.

[AZProgressive]

60. I don't really care what they call it

I support the policy of cutting massive police budgets and spending it on social programs.
Most people here are party loyalists who buy into things like “messaging problem” just because they say so. I have to go to Twitter to find the black feminists. I wish they would post here but I understand why they wouldn’t.

[brush]

65. So you still don't get if you favor reallocating police funds...

that should be what you call it, not defund the police?

Come on, it's not rocket science. Just admit defund the police was ill advised.

[AZProgressive]

68. I saw that BLM did a good job of turning out the vote

Including in Georgia’s runoffs.

This is the way I see it.

Joe Biden Wouldn't be the Next President If Not for 'Defund the Police'

https://www.theroot.com/joe-biden-wouldnt-be-the-next-president-if-not-for-defu-1845906470

Despite an insurrection the main messaging I get from the party is not to use those words which I don’t see how that helps mobilize abolitionists for the midterms but the Republicans are extremists especially when compared to just a few weeks ago. No one cares what scares me but at least I get paid for my disability.

[brush]

71. Biden would not be president if not for defund the police? Sorry, that's nonsensical.

We don't live in the same world. I'm through with this.

[Goodheart]

73. "If it was a bad slogan they wouldn't have used it ever" makes no sense.

Sorry.

[SYFROYH]

3. I think this is already the case in some local places.

In some places, legal residents who aren't US citizens can vote on local things.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. Why is having non-citizens vote in local elections "ill-advised"?

[beaglelover]

14. Because they are NON citizens.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

19. They are citizens of NYC, aren't they?

And shouldn't the Republicans be in favor of this because this small government control and not federal oversight?

And shouldn't Dems be in favor of this because it's a progressive stance?

Win/Win

[WhiskeyGrinder]

22. Why should citizenship be a requirement to vote in local elections?

[Elessar Zappa]

29. And?

If they live there and pay taxes then they should have a say in city government.

[Botany]

5. Made up right wing bull shit

Non-citizens can not vote because to vote you have to be a registered voter and to register to vote
you have to be a citizen. "The defund the police" is over the top bullshit from Fox, NewsMax, and so
on. What people are interested in over sight of police departments not shutting them down.

[msongs]

9. New York City poised to give voting rights to noncitizens...

must be a citizen to vote in federal elections, state and local elections are decided at the state and local level one reads


https://www.westernslopenow.com/news/new-york-city-poised-to-give-voting-rights-to-noncitizens/

[Hassin Bin Sober]

11. Why shouldn't legally documented residents of a city be allowed to vote on City issues?

These aren’t state or federal elections.

New York City can decide who votes in its elections.

I swear, the right wing reactionaryism…..

[Botany]

13. I did not know about voting in local elections in NY.

I am more to speed on OH voting laws.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

23. Several states and municipalities allow non-U.S. citizens to vote.

[Botany]

35. But the right wing will sell it as voting for senator or President.

thanx I didn't know about the local elections.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

36. That's not a reason not to do it.

[nycbos]

6. This is dumb

[beaglelover]

12. Shit like this is why we're going to be annihilated in the mid term elections 2022.

[madville]

55. It's like Tucker and Hannity are writing the script n/t

[patphil]

16. You can bet this will be a major Republican talking point for the 2022 elections.

Even though it is only for NYC elections, it will be extrapolated to the entire nation by the Republicans.
Personally I don't even like it for the City. Non-citizens don't have the same stake in the future of the City as citizens.
Please note, I live abut 60 miles north of NYC and on the west side of the Hudson River.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. .

Non-citizens don't have the same stake in the future of the City as citizens.

Why not?

[leftstreet]

17. Are these Democratic Party platforms?

No, I didn't think so

These are state and/or local city regs through laws or initiatives and ballot actions

[Budi]

26. This is spun up by the same that gave us the 'brilliantly failed' Defund the Police.

Ron Hayduk, SF State Political Science professor, was a Sanders supporter since the day he began his campaign for president in 2016.

The agenda is demographics.
Piss on those who fought hard & worked hard to gain their rights of US Citizenship.

It's a campaign talking point.
And its a betrayal to that right of citizenship.

All the reasons he gives are beautifully populisticly worded, except for the diminishing of the Right of Citizenship.
He omitted that part.

[ExciteBike66]

48. Piss on those who fought hard & worked hard to gain their rights of US Citizenship.

This has nothing to do with US citizenship, buddy...

For example, I am a US citizen, and yet I am not allowed to vote in NYC local elections, since I do not live there.

On the other hand, there is no reason to keep non-US-citizens who live in NYC from voting in those local elections, since they certainly have skin in the game.

[Budi]

66. Sure. Everybody with a foot on new ground gets to vote. Regardless.

All those who proudly took the steps to gain those rights of Citizenship too bad for you.
Ya didn't have to bother with that minor insignificant stuff like getting your citizenship.
File under "things that no longer matter."

"Burn it all down", they hollered
What's citizenship worth anyway. Don't cha know, that's so 'establishment'. 🙄

Jfc

Earned it?..
Then get your citizenship, if you want all the rights that it offers.

Thanks for handing the RW even more talking points. Like 'defund the police' sloganeering wasn't bad enough.

Wtf ever.

[ExciteBike66]

80. You are all over the place, I suggest you take a breath.

The issue is not one of US citizenship, but anyway I would still ask what I did to earn my right to vote when I turned 18. I mean, all I did was be born here.

Just remember that this is not an issue of US citizenship, this is a local, NYC thing.

1.) NYC certainly gets to determine who can and cannot vote in its local elections, limited only by the various laws and constitutions.
2.) To become a NYC resident, you have to do more than just have your foot on the ground. You have to be domiciled there or have permanent place to live and remain for 184 days.
3.) As a general matter, it makes sense that the people who live in NYC get to have their voices heard, regardless of whether or not the US government has granted them citizenship.

[progressoid]

74. How does this piss on those who "fought hard & worked hard to gain their rights of US Citizenship?"

WTF?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

18. It's just for local elections for goodness sake.

Shouldn't people being taxed by their local governmental bodies have a say in those bodies?

This is a solid progressive position. Let's support it. Republicans will be assholes regardless.

[Budi]

27. Its not progressive. It diminishes the Rights of US Citizenship.

That is not progressive.
Its an agenda.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

28. How does it diminish US citizenship

for NYC to allow residents of NYC to vote on NYC matters?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

30. Walk me through how this diminishes the rights of a U.S. citizen.

[iemanja]

59. Not the same question

but it gives the GOP ammunition.

This was first brought to my attention by a conservative on social media who talked about the Democrats encouraging immigration to create "replacement voters." I'd never hear the term before. He wanted to know why Democrats didn't address the problem of "replacement voters." I pointed out it was a right- wing term that we didn't use or were even aware of. The Republican opposition is obviously about race, but I do think giving non-citizens the vote is a losing political tactic.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

62. Everything that's not in the GOP platform gives them ammunition.

Several states and municipalities already allow non-citizens to vote.

[Celerity]

78. many advanced nations already allow noncitizens to vote in local elections

We do here in Sweden, since 1975.

Voting and eligibility rights were granted to all foreign residents with a 3 years residence condition for municipal and county elections in 1975, the first elections with those rules were held in September 1976. The 3 years reside condition was suppressed in 1997 for residents from EU (in conformity with the European legislation) and the Nordic Passport Union.


Voter enrolment for both citizens and eligible noncitizens is automatic in Sweden.


https://web.archive.org/web/20070612034102/http://www.anu.edu.au/NEC/Archive/waldrauch_paper.pdf

[beaglelover]

31. Sure, once they are citizens of the USA, until then, NO.

Citizenship comes with the privilege of voting in local, state, and federal elections.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

33. So far we are all in agreement that they can't vote in US elections.

But they are citizens of NYC, so they should be able to vote in NYC elections, right? The constitution clearly made voting decisions a state and local issue. You would think they would have made it national if they were worried about this.

[Torchlight]

38. Do not all your arguments why they should vote in NY city elections

apply just as equally and validly to the argument as to why they should have the national vote?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

39. I, personally, would support that, yes.

But the Constitution leaves voting rights to the state and local governments. That's where it should stay. NYC has decided that all citizens of NYC, regardless if they are citizens of the US, can vote in NYC elections. That's their right as a municipality. We should all support that since it is Constitutional.

[Torchlight]

41. And should a state decide to limit voting, we should all support that?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

83. Certainly you can understand supporting expanding voting rights and not limiting them, right?

But nice try, I guess. Additionally, it has been made clear that the Constitution does protect voting rights from being taken away. Is there anything in the Constitution that prohibits expanding voting rights?

[brush]

51. Don't you mean residents of NYC? IIRC there is no...

such thing as a citizen of NYC but not the nation.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

84. Sure. I'm fine with that word change.

[ColinC]

20. It would be the 15th place to do so

In the company of a municipality in South Dakota.

[Torchlight]

21. None of this is part of the Democratic Party's platform.

Now, if you're only targeting the Democrats and voters of New York City, I think that should have been part of your header because as it stands, you're applying one and only one city's evaluation of policy to the entire national Democratic party.

I think that's ill-advised.

[Budi]

24. Ron Hayduk nullifies our Citizenship to shill for a voter demographic.

Ron Hayduk, SF State Political Science professor, was a Sanders supporter since the day he began his campaign for president in 2016. When Bernie announced that he would be dropping out of the race for a second time, Hayduk became emotional. 🙄


Certainly no loyalty to a future political candidate would be expected, Right?
Right?

Citizenship is sacred. Hard fought for & proud to own by those who hold it, by birth or by process.

Hayuk will spin this, dismissing the sacred value of the rights of Citizenship, to shill for political loyalty in an election year.

Defund the Police! Burn it all down!, they hollered!
Revoluuushion!!

This is what all this is about.

[inthewind21]

40. Hysterical

Much. This has been going on in Cities for a while now. You're a little late to the party.

[Budi]

44. Histerical? So, No other opinion is valid of consideration. Got it.

It is exactly as I called it, then.

[mcar]

34. Oh for sweet Jeebus sake!

[NickB79]

42. For everyone trying to say they don't see the problem with this

I'm reminded of a saying I heard a while back: "If you have to explain it, you're already losing."

Americans by and large HATE detailed explanations. They LOVE short, sweet answers and slogans. And nothing is better than screaming "Democrats are letting non-citizens vote!"

It doesn't matter how you try to explain it. You may have great reasons why it should be allowed. That's all immaterial. If you have to explain why it's ok, you're already on the defensive. And that puts you one step closer to losing.

[Budi]

46. "Democrats are letting non-citizens vote!". "Defund the Police!"

Populism Backfired

[tulipsandroses]

77. So you are in favor of not doing right because Republican talking points?

I don’t make my decisions based on what republicans think. Immigrants of all stripes make up our communities. For instance, There are 35000 permanent residents that are in the armed forces. 8000 join each year. Many have died in the name of this country. So you are in favor of telling them they don’t get a say in their local communities because Republican talking points?
I find that scary.

[Ms. Toad]

79. The concept of defund the police had to be explained - it is not well-defined.

and even its proponents mean different things by it.

The concept of non-citizens voting in local elections requires no explanation.

We might differ as to whether voting in local elections is a good idea or not - but in sharp contrast with defund the police, what it means is clear.

Most policy changes require explanation and advocacy.

[luckone]

43. Ooops I forgot to login before perusing latest threads !

This is not new and not the first

[ExciteBike66]

47. People whose lives depend on those in charge have a say in choosing?

Gasp, the horror!

Just because they are not a US citizen doesn't mean they are not a citizen of NYC.

[NightWatcher]

52. We're really good at writing Fox News chyrons for them. Dems want illegals to vote!

Optics, people. How does this sound to a half-educated voter? Sounds like we're letting outsiders participate in choosing leaders and laws. Middle America reads that as "they're taking over" and we wonder why they vote for republicans?

[Demovictory9]

56. repubs already picked up on the issue..been connecting it to the border issue..

sayings its part of Biden/Dem plan to get more dem voters.

[Goodheart]

57. Exactly.

I certainly understand why local residents of a city should have some voice in how it's run, but this is an easy talking point for Republicans and a losing proposition for the rest of us.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

61. Yeah, like the way they have been doing that for 30 plus years?

[Demovictory9]

63. yes, but now on steroids since Trump

[marie999]

64. The Republicans will say that Democrats want illegal Muslim terrorists to vote for them.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

85. They say that anyway.

If we don't do things because the Republicans will lie about it and try to make us look bad, then we are going to do nothing.

[uponit7771]

67. A strong message flooded via mediums beats all GQP distractions, we're not doing that so bullshit

... like this comes to the front.

[PTWB]

69. I think this is a great idea.

I would support it on both the National and local levels. This is just an extension of a very core concept: no taxation without representation.

Folks who live in our communities and pay taxes to our government ought to have a say in electing that government.

[marie999]

70. I don't think an amendment to let them vote in national elections would pass.

[Goodheart]

72. I agree with all that, BUT

The selfishness of "this is OUR country" overwhelms the generosity of "no taxation without representation" when it comes to national elections.

[tulipsandroses]

75. This is a bullshit headline meant for sensationalism- Like clockwork

Last edited Wed Dec 8, 2021, 12:55 AM - Edit history (1)

Even for Democrats, immigrants conjure up scary ideas- Not sure if it’s just pure ignorance or what. The article talks about permanent residents among the people who would be eligible to vote. Some of the responses to this thread made me wonder if those people even understand what permanent resident is. I mean the name alone says it all but yet the article managed to accomplish its job of scaring Americans.
One response said they don’t have the same stake in their communities. Well that’s news to the permanent residents that not only work there, purchase homes there, have businesses there that employ other people here, serve in all branches of the military, they are firefighters, police officers, teachers, doctors, nurses and anything you can think of that keeps a community going.

Jamaal Kashhoggi was a non citizen. He was a permanent resident. His work for an American newspaper cost him his life.
Elon Musk, whether you love him or hate him, was creating billion dollar businesses as a non citizen before he became a citizen.

By the way , trump admin raised the citizenship application to an exorbitant amount. It is now over $1,100. I wonder why? It was around $450 during the Obama years.
It was already a backlogged system. Trump of course made it worse, then came Covid and the wait is even years longer.

[wellst0nev0ter]

76. Bookmarking this thread

And making note of the right wing nativists darkening the doors of this forum.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

86. I see it too.

[JHB]

81. Remind me just who made "defund the police" a policy of the Democrats?

FOX News and the conservative scream machine, that's who. Not Democrats.

You want to scold someone for RW media plucking a phrase off local protesters and painting every Democrat with it, scold wealthy Democrats who never invested in a pro-Democrats system like Republicans did.

You can't dictate how everybody acts at every moment of the day. They have "latch onto something, spin it up, and launch it out the foam cannon" down to a T. If you don't think so, ask Hillary about baking cookies or Obama about who didn't build what.

[ck4829]

82. Sample size. We should question the legitimacy of an election when only 30-40% of voters vote

More people voting is a good thing for us and our system of government as a whole.