Ask Manchin what parts of the BBB he will vote for and trim it down.

[MineralMan]

Give him what he'll vote for and treat the rest as separate bills.

Then, kill the filibuster and put the rest up one bill at a time.

That's the only practical way to proceed at this time, I think.

[Walleye]

1. I think the problem is we can't trust Manchin's word in the deal

[MineralMan]

2. Possibly. I don't know him. But there are those who do.

[Walleye]

5. Well I'm just going on the way he's been this year so far

He won’t make it clear what he actually wants. And won’t commit to voting for the plan, no matter how many concessions we make. That’s what they mean about not negotiating in good faith

[Hortensis]

44. This isn't actually true. The shock from this move is that he's

known to his colleagues for both wanting to reach agreements that will pass Democratic legislation if agreements are possible and for negotiating in good faith.

Whatever's going on with him, and there are real questions, apparently he and his family are being swamped with death threats from social media mobs, especially far left, and he's being demonized, again by the kind of leftists who are far more like RW political hooligans than they admit (political scientists know!).

The senate and house bills will have to be reconciled before passage. He may have decided this has gone on too long, the fringe handful demonizing him from the house possibly once again threatening passage of anything he would agree to, and decided to hit the brakes and draw a firmer line than he has before. Hope that's it.

(Nothing that HE was not among the handful in congress who threatened to join the Republicans to destroy the BIF in its entirety, cheered here by some but horrifying well over 100 million others who cheered its passage.)

One thing we know, those in congress who believe in fulfilling the promises they made to the electorate will fight on to do that. It's never over.

[leftstreet]

3. They aren't going to kill the filibuster

Good idea but relies on something they aren't going to do

[MineralMan]

7. Perhaps.

However, getting some of what's in the BBB passed will help some people materially. If nothing at all passes, nobody gets helped at all. I'm just trying to come up with a way to get some help into law.

[leftstreet]

9. There's really only one option at this point

Nancy and Chuck need to hit back hard.

The House introduces stand alone bills for items they know people will want

Senate brings it to it vote

Manchin (or Sinema or whoever else is obstructing behind the scenes) is forced to vote

That's it. That's politics.

[Demsrule86]

21. The Senate won't bring it for a vote...wasting time...and I know you all think, the 'people will

rise up' but they won't. If you ask folks about individual stuff...they agree they are for it. But it is not a voting issue...the only way to get anything is to compromise with Manchin and Sinema.

[leftstreet]

23. A McConnell senate would

Regardless of the outcome. It's called politics and if you're not shrewd enough to know how to play the game, you shouldn't play

[onenote]

52. Reconciliation won't work for individual pieces of the bill.

[wellst0nev0ter]

4. How many reconciliation bullets will we have to pass them?

[MineralMan]

8. I am not in the Senate. I do not know.

Actually, I think we get one reconciliation bill. So, let's put together one that can pass and then go from there.

Something is better than nothing almost always. Helping some people is better than helping no people.

I think you're going to see something get through the Senate. I'm not the only one who feels like that, I guarantee.

Insisting on things that can't be accomplished and sacrificing the rest is not good sense at all.

[wellst0nev0ter]

12. So repeat what we did this year

Cool.

[Voltaire2]

42. amazing huh?

it is Lucy and the Football, it is so clearly Lucy and the Football, that anyone proposing this strategy has to know it is Lucy and the Football.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

6. Possibly some back tracking by him today

In a statement, issued later Sunday, Manchin signaled that he still could continue negotiating with Biden and other top Democrats on a scaled-back version of the bill. But the senator otherwise said he could not “vote to move forward with this mammoth piece of legislation,” which he said would “dramatically reshape our society in a way that leaves our country even more vulnerable to the threats we face.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/12/19/manchin-build-back-better-biden/

The problem as pointed out by others is how good is his word.

[MineralMan]

11. As I said above, I do not know Joe Manchin.

Some people do, I'm sure.

[Mr.Bill]

55. He's the one having knee-jerk reactions.

Meanwhile, Biden is keeping his cool and moving steadily towards hopefully an eventual solution.

[qazplm135]

27. He's just trying to reduce the heat

No one is going to trust him as far as they can throw him now.

[Polybius]

10. No, he's done

The entire thing is scrapped and there's nothing that any of us can do. Our only hope is after the Red Wave of 2022, it scares a lot of people and we take back the House and Senate in 2024.

[MineralMan]

14. See Post #6.

I doubt you know Joe Manchin well enough to predict his behavior in all circumstances. I fact, I'm sure of that.

[Polybius]

17. I seen him on TV today

Stick a fork in BBB. Post 6 means nothing. So it'll still be called BBB, and he'll vote for it if but it'll go down to $50 billion. I'm so excited.

[MineralMan]

18. You seen him? OK, then...

[Polybius]

19. Yeah, I heard what he had to say today on his interview

It's over. We're not getting BBB.

[Demsrule86]

22. Very unlikely. When Republicans win, the country move right historically. And no we don't give up...

we move the ball forward by passing what we can. We may not get a chance for some time.

[atreides1]

13. Do you really trust Manchin to keep his word?

He's was given almost everything he's asked for...he was never going to vote in favor of BBB!

And we can make a safe assumption that while he and Sinema will provide lip service for voting rights...neither of them will do what's needed...hoping for that drug induced fantasy that Republicans want voting rights!!!

[MineralMan]

16. I do not know Joe Manchin at all.

I expect that other Senators do know him, though. Do you know him?

[RainCaster]

15. Already been done, Manchin keeps faltering

His word is not to be trusted.

[Johonny]

49. Yup. The bill they have now is the Manchin approved bill.

Manchin is just playing a game of moving goal posts. Biden has concluded Manchin doesn't have the guts to do the right thing for the people in his state. It seems to be an accurate conclusion.

[mcar]

20. That could work, esp given Grassley's latest Tweet

about his bill with Wyden to lower Rx costs.

I also think we should be focusing on voting rights. Manchin has skin in that game, as he formed the bill.

[Triloon]

24. Screw him

Work on Murkowski, she's a better democrat. But not much.

[Emile]

25. That's already been done and he changed again and again!

[tinrobot]

26. We asked what he'd vote for when it was a $4T bill, he helped cut it to $1.75T, then tanked it.

So, do you trust him to cut it further?

Plus, can't dump the filibuster without him. Even if a miracle happened and he voted for filibuster reform, he'd still be the deciding vote on all of those separate bills.

Not going to happen.

[48656c6c6f20]

28. Can't. We have Mancinema syndrome

Mancinema syndrome is a condition in which hostages develop a psychological bond with their captors during captivity. They believe their captors are the only ones that can save them.

[LowerManhattanite]

29. LOL!

(To keep from crying)

[Vinca]

30. It would work if you could trust Manchin. He keeps telling the POTUS and his fellow Dems

he'll vote for something if they do X, then he blows them off after they decide to take him at his word and cut whatever he wants cut or alter whatever he wants altered. Announcing his grand decision on Faux News was also a slap at Dems. It won't be a surprise if he gifts Mitch McConnell with his dream Christmas present: another Republican in the Senate.

[bluestarone]

31. Like i said today. It's time, (like you said) ask Joe, then MOVE FORWARD!

WE just need to suck it up, and move forward.We WILL get another shot later, once we start moving forward again. PASS what we can now. THEN i hope and pray for the voting rights bill. (this one we really need) If we get something, it will help us in 22.

[radius777]

32. Manchinema would trim anything that would benefit PoC,

the poor, women etc. BIF was the white man's jobs bill that is why they supported it.

Charlamagne was right, Manchinema think they're president. It was PoC who made Joe Biden the president, it was PoC who gave Schumer the Senate - it's time for the Dem party to go to the mat and play hardball with Manchinema to get things done for PoC. BBB, Voting Rights, Police Reform are all things PoC voted for when we voted for Biden. Women are losing their reproductive rights. The insurrectionists are getting slaps on the wrist. Garland is wimpy. Fuck this bullshit.

[XanaDUer2]

33. Well said nt

[berni_mccoy]

34. You really don't get it.

He's been asked this question multiple times and refuses to answer.

He uses the same term some here do: It's "Socialism".

Keep dreaming that he'll ever change. He won't. He's bought and paid for by the same people McConnell is. He's just less honest about it.

[PTWB]

35. Brother, we don't have the votes to kill the filibuster.

You can thank Manchin for that, too.

[Hekate]

36. He lied, MM. Then he stalled. Then he obfuscated. Lied some more. Stalled. Congress has gone home.

I don’t know what else to say.

[Autumn]

37. He's already been given what he said he could work with. But then he changed his mind,

or he was just fucking around and lied to the President. The filibuster will not be killed. Not gonna happen.The BBB is dead, dead, dead.


Disclaimer: My opinion only. Yours may vary.
Of course I'm not an expert, not an employee nor a confidant of Senate leadership.

[Celerity]

39. Hoping for Manchin to come good for the party and country's sake is like cosplaying

battered wife syndrome.

[Autumn]

40. It's become a fucking joke at this point. But that dead horse isn't going to beat itself.

[Celerity]

38. He is NOT going to allow a carve-out to the filibuster, therefore your separate bill gambit is DOA.

He and Sinema will NOT give up a 60 vote final threshold. Sinema is probably even less likely to do it than Manchin.

[Voltaire2]

41. That is exactly what was done.

He got everything he asked for. And then he ran over to Fascist Central and announced it was dead.

[The Magistrate]

43. All Manchin Wants Is Less, Sir

No matter what is proposed, he will want it trimmed. If the appropriation was for a nickel, he'd say trim it to three pennies, and if people came back with an offer of four pennies, he'd say really it needs to be two if you want me on board.

This is the besetting vice of the self-styled 'moderate'. They have no program, what they really want is preservation of the status quo, in all its rancid glory. They oppose any change, and are not deterred by the thought of what Republicans might do in power, because what changes Republicans want merely clarify elements of the status quo. Are many economically insecure? Making people less economically secure has at least the virtue of not upsetting the way things are....

[MineralMan]

45. I understand, which is why

increasing our Senate majority should be our top priority. Any time there is an actual tie in the Senate, it means that any senator can block passage of any bill introduced by his own party.

We crept up on 50 Senate votes only when two Democratic Senators were elected in Georgia, of all places. That was almost a miracle, but it happened. We need more such "miracles."

Right now, recognizing the danger of a 50:50 vote in the Senate, we need to adjust our suspenders to keep our pants high and get to work to increase our majority to one that ensures that bills can get through that house of Congress.

Manchin is a dick. No question about it. He is capitalizing on the weakness of having only 50 seats in that body. Shame on him, but shame on us, too, for not making our real national majority effective by electing enough Senators to ensure success for our agenda.

We can't go back to any election, but we certainly should be able to learn from them and not keep repeating our poor turnout in off-year and midterm elections. And anyone who says we don't fail in that goal is absolutely incorrect.

[The Magistrate]

46. Absolutely, Sir

The only cure for the wretch is more Senators.

[BradAllison]

47. Maybe extend the Ryan tax slashes too

Why not?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

48. How about we stop giving him want he wants so he can then say no?

I mean, it didn't work last time, but, yeah, let's try it one more time. This time Lucy isn't going to pull the football away when we try to kick it. For sure. It will happen. He'll see the light.

[MineralMan]

50. So, what is your suggestion?

Just let the whole thing die? I'm not sure that helps anyone in any way.

Nor would it teach Manchin any lesson.

I'm not willing to simply let the entire bill die. Perhaps you are, but I am not.

[Voltaire2]

51. It's already dead.

In fact it died when it was decoupled from BIF. Everyone except the 'little people' knew that. The last few weeks has all just been theater.

So what is to be done?

1. Blame placed where it belongs: Manchin, and the 50 Republican Senators, it ain't just Manchin.
2. Start using EO's aggressively to do what can be done. For example declare a climate emergency and go right down the same court approved path Trump went down to divert funds from the grossly bloated military budget to enact green new deal initiatives.

But yeah, sure, waste another year begging Manchin to not be such as meany. Makes Biden look super in control.

[BlueIdaho]

53. I say exhaust all options.

BBB is about making real differences in the lives of all Americans - especially to the poor, the old, the sick, and the underpaid. It’s also about building the infrastructure to compete with foreign industry. We owe it to everyone to keep pushing for the future of America, even if the odds look bad.

Even if it’s a goner, force the enemies of progress to vote against the American people and then shove their votes down their throats.

[wellst0nev0ter]

54. There's this common saying

About trying the same things over again and expecting different results.

It's at the tip of my tongue but I'm seriously blanking out...

[UCmeNdc]

56. Joe Manchin is vested in stopping Joe Biden's agenda. He will not do these things you suggested.

He is selfish, he has his own agenda.