Many here claim that the infrastructure bill should have been tied to the BBB

[question everything]

No! and No! and No!

We needed a serious infrastructure bill since Obama. Repairing roads and bridges will be visible to many voters, including R’s and, one hopes, will be used by Democratic candidates in swing districts.

The BBB - let’s be honest - is not as visible to many who vote. Climate change is not obvious to many, even with the destructive weather that we’ve been having. Many voters do not see the immediate need for help with child care and with elder care. Emphasis on voters.

Had we followed the wishes of the “squad” members who, according to some posts here are now gloating, we’ve had neither and the we’ve had created an image of a party that cannot govern with disastrous results in 2022 and in 2024.

I still wonder how much that delay was a factor in the Virginia elections.

I repeat what I have been saying before: Mederates flipped the House in 2018, and the image that the party shifted to the left with “defunding the police” caused the loss of seats in 2020. Biden became our candidate and won because, among other qualities his platform was a moderate one.

[flying rabbit]

1. K&R

[Frasier Balzov]

2. Biden became our candidate because he was Barack Obama's VP.

And because of the successful efforts of Rep. James Clyburn to turn it around for Joe Biden in the SC primary.

[leftstreet]

5. +1

and people really, really wanted Trump out

[ymetca]

12. Correctamundo!

It all flipped on that little tactic, and with Obama endorsing. Made the rest of the primaries quite superfluous.

Neat trick. All according to a plan we're never privy to, we the hoi polloi, so un-worthy of self-governance.

Some of us still want a big-D Democracy, someday, somehow, instead of this increasingly undemocratic ruse of a political system.

[onenote]

45. what was undemocratic about the process by which Biden got the nomination?

Yes Clyburn endorsed Biden. Yes Obama endorsed Biden.
Those endorsements would have been meaningless if folks hadn't voted for Biden.

Do you think that only people who didn't support Biden cast votes that should have mattered?

[question everything]

13. I did qualify it as "among other qualities.". Of course your comment is correct

[stopdiggin]

23. virtually any other democratic candidate

(and I liked a lot of them) would have gotten beaten by Trump. Full stop. There isn't even any question involved. Anything else is rankest revisionism.

[gab13by13]

3. K&R BS

Not falling for your game to get everyone to fight.

This thread only entices moderates to fight with progressives, no one should fall for this.

[qazplm135]

4. that's the moderate dem view

but it presumes that voters reward for past bills passed.

They don't. They vote hopes and fears. They vote their current situation.

But the poor person who has their child tax credit gone, still paying student loans they can't afford or some of the other things that were in the BBB aren't going to go yeah but at least the roads and bridges are better...which of course by next election most won't be because those things have to be planned out and take a lot of time.

So they won't even see the thing you say will drive them to the polls.

Biden moved left by the way, he did that in the primary and he didn't back off in the GE. He didn't run against progressives, he ran with them, hand in hand.

Unlike you and some others, he realizes we need BOTH to win. HE realized you can't win just catering to moderates anymore than you can win just catering to progressives. That's how he won.

And the payment by a few moderates for that was to pan the bill HE came up with and endorsed and fought for as if it's some "loony left" vanity project.

But you won, enjoy. But when enough progressives stay home then we can all enjoy the minority. And you can say well that's the progressives' fault, but you'll still be in the minority as you say it.

You know I was as vocal about progressives not being team players in 2016 as anyone. I see no reason not to be just as vocal about a handful of moderates not being team players now.

[wellst0nev0ter]

6. Here's how much BIF helped Biden in the polls

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

[qazplm135]

11. few responses

1. none of us have any idea what moves him up or down in the polls. It could be nothing, one thing, or a combination of things.
2. Polling a year out from an election is meaningless
3. Few folks but partisans are going to remember much about the BIF in the voting booth next Fall. They'll vote based on how they fell then, how is inflation, how is their economic situation, etc. The BIF isn't going to magically make student loans cheaper, or turn into a child tax credit, or cut taxes on the middle class. The BBB would have.

My concern isn't polling now, my concern is polling 11 months from now.

[wellst0nev0ter]

15. No, no I agree with you

Looking at that poll aggregate, Biden's poll numbers only improved about one percentage point from last month.

If BIF was supposed to be this big political winner it was billed as, I'm not seeing it.

[Walleye]

19. I think the threat that progressives will stay home is what pisses people off

[qazplm135]

30. well couple of thoughts there

1. moderates telling progressives to pound sand and like it pisses them off
2. regardless of why progressives might stay home, moderates need them to win (see also 1)

Progressives don't always play ball. They weren't team players in 2016. I said as much then.

Now? They absolutely played ball.
Manchin took his ball and went home.

And the media isn't going to talk about progressives being sore losers. They are going to talk about Biden being a loser.
They are going to talk about Dems being a loser.
Progressives are going to talk about being left out to dry.

And moderates are going to say come on guys, we got the BIF, suck it up or else you're bad Democrats.

I mean good luck with that winning anything.

[The Magistrate]

37. Cold But Fair, Sir

[ms liberty]

7. I don't see any gloating. I see a lot of frustration and anger. n/t

[Raven123]

8. Fair enough, but Biden said he could get both done and didn't. Very disappointing.

Bad look for Joe and the Dems.

[stopdiggin]

24. presidents have to have agendas and propose things

you're suggesting we don't try?

Biden threw out big plans and big numbers - then proved more than willing to bargain and negotiate. That sounds like textbook strategy to me.

[Raven123]

27. Joe's reputation as one who can broker a deal, a reputation he touted, has taken a blow

I am not suggesting we don’t try. I am saying some legislators who voted for the infrastructure bill, also voted as an act of faith that he would come through on BBB. Didn’t happen. I think the incline up that hill is a lot steeper, in light of the circumstances. The outcome once infrastructure and BBB were separated was predictable and in fact was predicted by many. The last several months have lost us valuable legislative time and IMO put Dems behind schedule for the 2022 midterms.

[stopdiggin]

34. we still have 48 reliable votes in the Senate.

Joe Biden (nor any other president) can 'deal' his away around that limitation. There is no legislative stratagem that is suddenly going to get him, or anyone else, 51 or 52 votes in the Senate. Talking about coupling and decoupling is is simply a childish game of fantasy by those that imagine (still) that there is some slight of hand by which those votes can be made to appear. Warren, Booker, Buttigieg, Sanders - none of those names were going to deliver more legislation under the current circumstances. (and the chances are real good, given GA, that w/out Biden we would have McConnell as Senate Majority leader) Sound better to you?

Democrats that are so perpetually 'disappointed' in our Democratic leaders - just kinda' make me want to puke.

[Raven123]

38. I agree and disagree with you.

No one could get those votes. Joe claimed he could get it done. Period. Didn’t happen.

It is not childish to look back on a strategy that didn’t work. Would rather evaluate it and ask why it didn’t work, than shrug and make the same mistake again.

[stopdiggin]

40. Rather than deal maker

or 'getting things done' I suppose some would prefer declarations of 'my way or the highway'. Unfortunately, that person neither gets things done - nor gets elected in the first place.

Criticism for a strategy, that in essence had no alternative is ... Is if not childish, then certainly empty.

[Raven123]

42. There was an alternative.

Be realistic immediately. Once Joe said he would get an ambitious BBB Bill done, he cornered himself. I think his earnestness clouded his ability to see that it just wasn’t going to happen. A lot of time was wasted. I just hope Joe didn’t waste too much political capital.

[GoodRaisin]

31. TFG did absolutely nothing while he was in office. (Legislative theft for tax

breaks for the rich doesn’t count).

Anyone who wants to talk about the Dems looking bad need to be reminded of that lazy jackass who used to bray that it was “infrastructure week” on his way to the golf course. Biden worked like hell to get BBB done. Biden has worked like hell since the day he took office. He has gotten a Covid rescue plan, gotten us out of Afghanistan war, gotten infrastructure. He hasn’t given up on BBB either. Not sure where it goes from here but he won’t stop working.

[Raven123]

39. Agree with you. How many soft deadlines have we crossed on this.

I would rather everyone negotiate behind closed doors, say NOTHING about when “we hope to pass BBB” and then announce a deal when it is made. The drip, drip, drip is a bad look, gets too much attention and distracts from everything you mentioned. I just don’t get it.

[GoodRaisin]

43. Agree with that.

They just all need to stop talking to M$M “journalists” who are really nothing but hacks. M$M hosts and “contributors” then drive the deadline talk and hyper-ventilate over it as if Dems are the bad guys, never giving Joe Biden any credit for all the good he has done, and going silent over the record of accomplishing nothing his predecessor had. It all makes me ill.

[Claustrum]

9. I will add that for some very crazy reason a lot of people thought TFG is moderate as well.

He surely used a lot of right wing rhetoric in his speeches. His policy position is actually one that's seen more moderate because he has no real position on anything. He shifts to the left and to the right in any given issue as he sees fits and people picked and chose what they agreed with even though he contradicts his position in the immediate next sentence.

[question everything]

20. I admit, in 2016 I thought he was because previously he was a Democrat

he was pro choice and during the first debate he was talking about health care system “like Canada.”

I guess I was hoping that his election was not going to be so destructive.

As you point out - no stands, no ideas, no thoughts, only the first thing that comes to his voice box.

But, I would hardly compare him to Biden with his rich long service.

[Claustrum]

25. Right. Not comparing him to Biden at all.

Because TFG is a "moderate" I would never get behind while I fully supported Biden since the start. Biden is the real deal while TFG is........

I am simply making a point that I think the "swing votes" that decides each election are more moderate than people make them to be on this board. So I was agreeing with your premise.

[GoodRaisin]

44. I was just surprised people couldn't see through him, his fraud was so obvious.

That’s when it hit me that our country had been afflicted with such a great amount of stupidity.

[LonePirate]

10. If we shouldn't pass bills that are not visible to voters, we wouldn't pass very many bills.

That's a lame excuse not to pass important legislation.

[question everything]

14. Normally, yes. When we have a strong majority in the House and a Senate that

see its role as passing laws, not as a vindictive body.

[rpannier]

16. The delay had near zero affect

There have been several postmortems done and Mc Auliffe's comments about parents and education sunk him. In one, with people who had voted for the Dem gov the last two tims and voted for Biden, those that voted Youngkin (and there was a huge percentage) did so because of McAuliffe's comments about education
Less than 10% said the passing the infrastructure bill may have swayed their vote

[luv2fly]

17. What's the point of this other than starting shit?

Like there isn't enough negativity around here these days already anyways.

[question everything]

21. Blunting the "I told you so" that many and twits from members of the squad

have been floating here.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

18. Agree

[The Magistrate]

22. No, Sir, They Were Right

The difference seems to be that when it comes to the push of pikes, the Party's left wing will stand by the platform, and the 'moderates' will not.

People really need to get that through their heads.

The 'left' of the Democratic Party is not particularly radical, and mostly reasonable. The 'moderates' of the Party are neither reasonable nor loyal, and are willing as a matter of practical fact to enable the radical right.

[LowerManhattanite]

28. Thank you for THIS.

[question everything]

32. Do you really think that "bundling" both bills had any chance to pass?

[The Magistrate]

33. If So, Sir, It Is On The 'Moderates' The Onus Lies

The Progressive caucus stood by the Party and its voters, the 'moderates' betrayed both, and the country into the bargain.

There was an agreement both would pass, albeit after some further negotiation in good faith, on which the separation was predicated. It was not the left broke their word.

It has to be taken as axiomatic by now that no 'moderate' is to be trusted to stand by the Party.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

36. ☝️THIS☝️

BOOOOOOOMM!!

[Tribetime]

26. I respectfully disagree 100% nt

[LowerManhattanite]

29. Oh Lord...

…here we go again. 🤦🏾‍♂️

“I still wonder how much that delay was a factor in the Virginia elections.”

I wonder how much this craven stab in the back some hours ago will be a factor in the 2022 elections.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

35. Damn right!!

[NurseJackie]

41. Thank you! Especially this part...

Thank you! Especially this part...

Had we followed the wishes of the “squad” members who, according to some posts here are now gloating, we’ve had neither and the we’ve had created an image of a party that cannot govern with disastrous results in 2022 and in 2024.

I'm sick to death of people who think they know more than Biden and who work harder to thwart his agenda than they do to support and promote it.

I still wonder how much that delay was a factor in the Virginia elections.

A lot.