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MineralMan

(146,331 posts)
Tue Dec 21, 2021, 03:18 PM Dec 2021

I hate letters from the IRS!

We subscribe to the USPS system that tells you in the morning what mail should arrive that day. Among the mail pieces I do not look forward to are letters from the IRS. Generally, they contain a demand for payment of something - typically some small penalty for late filing in my case. But, you just never know until you open the envelope.

Yesterday, I saw that yet another IRS missive was coming to my mailbox. This time, though, it had my late parents' names on it. I filed their 2020 1040 on October 15, 2021, after getting the automatic filing extension. Problem was that their papers were in disarray. Most records of their farm expenses were missing. It's understandable. My Mom had severe Alzheimer's and they were both 96 years old when they died.

So, I did my best to figure out their taxes, and lacking documentation for much of their deductible expenses, paid more taxes for them than they would have owed if I had the information. That's OK, though. I didn't mind, really. What they left covered it with no problem. So, I figured that IRS letter was going to end up with me looking for additional documentation that doesn't exist and trying to explain.

Not so. The letter was a notification of some tax credit for the 2018 tax year. $1000. But, there was a catch. My parents didn't file that year, because they didn't have to. Their medical expenses far exceeded the income from the farm they owned. So, their accountant just didn't file at all.

The IRS, however, told me that I had to file their 2018 1040 to get that $1000. In the letter it said that if I did not file, that $1000 would not be paid. Well, I have zero paperwork for 2018, and their accountant died of COVID-19, so that's the end of that. I will shrug that off, because there is no possibility of my filing without the required records.

The IRS knows they died. I sent along their death certificates and a cover letter to that effect with the 2020 filing. I explained the lack of records due to their age and just paid what Turbo Tax told me they owed. It should probably have been nothing. But...papers...I didn't have them.

Will that be the end of this? I doubt it. I expect a few more IRS letters addressed to my late parents. The IRS, like the honey badger, don't care.

Oh, well...

18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
I hate letters from the IRS! (Original Post) MineralMan Dec 2021 OP
See your Congress Person Tetrachloride Dec 2021 #1
No need. It's not all that much money. MineralMan Dec 2021 #4
For others I am hoping this is the solution Diablo del sol Dec 2021 #11
Is there a bricks and mortar office in MSP where you can actually meet with an agent? mahatmakanejeeves Dec 2021 #2
Sure, but it's not enough money to really bother with. MineralMan Dec 2021 #5
I Just Got One From The IL Dept. Of Revenue ProfessorGAC Dec 2021 #3
Sounds like a good plan to me. MineralMan Dec 2021 #6
You're Right ProfessorGAC Dec 2021 #7
They have to balance their books, I guess. MineralMan Dec 2021 #8
If a company has a decent financial system in place, sending the check is actually cheaper Diablo del sol Dec 2021 #12
I got one in November 2020 saying I owed $2,900 because I didn't declare some retirement progree Dec 2021 #9
We got one a few years ago telling us we owed $9,000. After I picked myself up off the Vinca Dec 2021 #10
I will WELCOME the letter I'm expecting from the IRS for what I call the Form 1098-T Fiasco ARPad95 Dec 2021 #13
That all sounds very, very complicated. MineralMan Dec 2021 #14
It's actually very simple and it's the NACUBO that mucked it up. ARPad95 Dec 2021 #16
The main face of government that everyone sees is the bat threatening a good beating. TheBlackAdder Dec 2021 #15
We see the Postal Carrier everyday? pwb Dec 2021 #17
Since when does the IRS inform us of available cash/credits? ecstatic Dec 2021 #18

MineralMan

(146,331 posts)
4. No need. It's not all that much money.
Tue Dec 21, 2021, 04:09 PM
Dec 2021

If the IRS sends me a bill, I send them a check and they don't bother me any further.

Couldn't be simpler. You do not want to get into a long drawn-out thing with the IRS. Trust me.

 

Diablo del sol

(424 posts)
11. For others I am hoping this is the solution
Tue Dec 21, 2021, 05:59 PM
Dec 2021

For two years, 2016 and 2017, got two letters demanding payment total of over 20k. Filed through Turbo Tax, had some Restricted Stock Units (no cost to me) and Incentive Stock Units that I paid for at 85%.

Sold them all during those two years, IRS ignored cost basis and treated all ISUs as zero cost.

Sat on hold for almost 6 hours twice. Finally got through and zero help to resolve even with document showing cost paid. Basically ran out the clock so I paid.

Engaged with CPA to work after the fact. She has been working on getting refund for two years. Six weeks ago I get a form letter stating they agree. Issue is the letter had blank spot for tax year and refund amount. Just a blank form letter.

Finally hit me. Need to go to Katie Porters office to get help.

mahatmakanejeeves

(57,613 posts)
2. Is there a bricks and mortar office in MSP where you can actually meet with an agent?
Tue Dec 21, 2021, 03:28 PM
Dec 2021

Whenever I've talked to them on the phone, they're pretty helpful.

YMMV

MineralMan

(146,331 posts)
5. Sure, but it's not enough money to really bother with.
Tue Dec 21, 2021, 04:12 PM
Dec 2021

I can't possibly file for 2018 for my parents, so that $1000 will stay at the Treasury Department for some other purpose. It would cost me more than that to try to fix the problem, really.

The other stuff is just small demands for penalty payments. I just pay them and that's done. I recommend never getting into a dispute with the IRS over a small sum of money. It's simply not worth it. I made that mistake one time, and the time involved meant that I made about $2.50 per hour getting that $100. Not worthwhile.

ProfessorGAC

(65,191 posts)
3. I Just Got One From The IL Dept. Of Revenue
Tue Dec 21, 2021, 03:35 PM
Dec 2021

Like you, I'm thinking "Now what?"
There's no state income tax on retirement income here so the only thing we owe on would be my puny earnings from subbing. (About $9k)
Turns out we overpaid by $36.
I don't have to do anything yet. It says they'll send a form where I can request a refund (direct deposit) or apply it 2021 taxes.
I'll probably do the latter & just get the $36 in March.

ProfessorGAC

(65,191 posts)
7. You're Right
Tue Dec 21, 2021, 04:28 PM
Dec 2021

I'm surprised they even bothered!
Still not sure what I did wrong. There's only about $450 in taxes due. Not sure how I missed by 8%.
There must have been some deduction I could take, but didn't include in my math.
But, just getting the letter is a drag! As you said in your OP!

MineralMan

(146,331 posts)
8. They have to balance their books, I guess.
Tue Dec 21, 2021, 04:37 PM
Dec 2021

We paid off a car loan recently, a couple of years early. Went to the lender's website and got a number to pay off the balance due. Sent a check that arrived before the expiration of that number. A month later, they sent us a check for $4.87. We overpaid, the paper that came with the check said. It cost them way more than $5 to send us that check. So, why bother?

Accounts have to balance, apparently. We got a check for $169 after selling our house and having the mortgage paid off at the closing. Again, an overpayment. Weird. I mean, the title company calls the lender and gets a payoff amount the day of the closing, and wires that amount to the lender immediately. They can't figure out the payoff amount accurately, I guess, so they end up having to refund a small amount to balance their books.

The IRS does the same if you overpay. You get a check. Frankly, I don't care about such small amounts of money. I send the IRS money, and hope that's the end of it every year. All too often, though, I end up paying some more or getting a refund. It all makes no financial sense, really, given the administrative costs of either billing me a small amount or paying me a small amount. Let's just call it even and get over it, I say.

I'm a "keep the change" kind of guy. I always have been.

 

Diablo del sol

(424 posts)
12. If a company has a decent financial system in place, sending the check is actually cheaper
Tue Dec 21, 2021, 06:12 PM
Dec 2021

Seems strange, but writing it off is actually more costly.

Plus not everyone has your opinion. Had a go live for a major insurance company. Had an issue with a piece of code and duplicated about $3,500 of payments. We wrote it off Couple days later I get a call from a guy who got two $57.00 checks. Told him he could cash it or throw it away. He didn’t want to do either. Finally had him write void on it, sent him a fedex prepaid and had him send it back. $200 cost for a $57 check.

progree

(10,918 posts)
9. I got one in November 2020 saying I owed $2,900 because I didn't declare some retirement
Tue Dec 21, 2021, 04:49 PM
Dec 2021

income for 2018 taxes. But I had, and sent in some stuff to prove it. I got replies in February and May and August all saying they need more time (in the meantime penalties and interest are piling up) Finally on August 23, a little more than 9 months from the beginning, I finally got a letter saying they have closed the case. (so nothing owed)

Just tiresome and a little scary to have this hanging over one's head for 9 months with penalties and interest accumulating. And wondering how in the heck this got flagged as a problem in the first place. And the proof wasn't bulletproof, they were vague in what was missing "taxable retirement income" but the missing amount matched some IRA Required Minimum distributions which I had declared.

Edited title: November 2020, not November 2000

Vinca

(50,304 posts)
10. We got one a few years ago telling us we owed $9,000. After I picked myself up off the
Tue Dec 21, 2021, 04:54 PM
Dec 2021

floor and called the accountant in a panic, I discovered the 1099 form in question was probably read incorrectly by their computers. It was for $4,000 but could have been construed as $40,000 because it was off center and diagonal. Finally got it straightened out and owed nothing. I hate IRS letters.

ARPad95

(1,671 posts)
13. I will WELCOME the letter I'm expecting from the IRS for what I call the Form 1098-T Fiasco
Tue Dec 21, 2021, 08:28 PM
Dec 2021

Form 1098-T is the one colleges and universities use to report payments RECEIVED for tuition (and other qualified expenses) during the calendar year (= tax year). The student or parents (if student is a dependent) must then use the Form 1098-T to complete Form 8863 to claim the Lifetime Learning Credit or Tuition and Fees Deduction on their income tax return. Of course, the amounts on the 1098-T forms the colleges and universities file with the IRS and furnish to the students need to be correct for the student or parents to properly complete the Form 8863. The IRS can assess stiff penalties if the colleges and universities file and/or furnish incorrect 1098-T forms. And even stiffer penalties if the IRS finds there is an intentional disregard of IRS tax reporting requirements.

Prior to Tax Year 2018, colleges and universities could use a method that allowed them to report tuition (and other qualified expenses) BILLED on an academic year basis (i.e., Fall term - Spring term). This was a problem because two tax years were crossed and it was confusing for students/parents and caused the IRS major headaches. So after years of the colleges and universities resisting the IRS' push for them to change over to the payments RECEIVED during the calendar year method (i.e., Spring term - Fall term), the IRS forced them to switch starting with the 2018 Form 1098-T. That ended up being a complete cluster F*** because the colleges and universities relied solely on an outside national association (the same one that whined to the IRS about it being too much of a burden for its membership to switch methods) for Form 1098-T reporting guidance instead of going straight to the IRS.

Here's the March 2020 final correspondence I sent to the arrogant and condescending Assistant Counsel at my child's college after going up the willfully ignorant chain of command in the Student Financial Services department (all identifying info removed):

Dear Mr. [Assistant Counsel],

Seriously? This is the official response from XYZ College? All it proves is you, too, are unqualified to communicate with me regarding IRS Form 1098-T reporting requirements. Selectively quoting from IRS Publication 970 to bolster your cohorts' delusional take on Form 1098-T reporting is laughable, albeit a stunning example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect in an institutional setting.

XYZ College is the FILER, not the recipient, of Form 1098-T. As such, the only instructions you should be quoting and following to the letter are the ones in the attached IRS publications: 2019 General Instructions for Certain Information Returns and 2019 Instructions for Forms 1098-E and 1098-T. (I have also attached my colorful, easy-to-understand 2019 Form 1098-T Instruction Manual if you find the IRS publications too daunting.)

I realize the Student Financial Services staff is dependent on Ellucian-Banner and, in turn, Ellucian-Banner receives its Form 1098-T reporting instructions (more like, interpretations) from the National Association of College and University Business Officers. However, it is the IRS that is the ultimate authority here and the only authority to be consulted when serious problems with the way Form 1098-T reporting is being done (past and present) are brought to XYZ College's attention.

In my expert analysis, the NACUBO has made a mess out of the transition from Box 2 to Box 1 reporting (and it has been vigorously resisting the IRS's enforcement of the Box 1 method for years). In its October 15, 2018 advisement to member colleges and universities, NACUBO Provides Customizable 1098-T Letter (to students and families), the NACUBO included blatantly false Box 1 reporting information, "...we will report in Box 1 the amount of QTRE you paid during the year." It should have stated "...we will report in Box 1 the amount of QTRE we received from all sources during the year." Even the blank sample 2018 Form 1098-T included with the NACUBO's sample letter states, "Payments received for QTRE," in Box 1!

There is absolutely no excuse for the NACUBO to get it so wrong in its various publications. On top of that, it promotes a very dismissive attitude toward the IRS among its membership and with Ellucian-Banner. The NACUBO is the source of the Box 1 confusion, not the IRS. The only change the IRS wanted colleges and universities to make is to report on a calendar year basis (Spring Term to Fall Term) instead of on an academic year basis (Fall Term to Spring Term) to avoid crossing two tax years and the resultant confusion that method created.

Instead of spending your time crafting letters that make you look foolish (e.g., it is impossible for my child's 2019 Form 1098-T Box 1 amount to be correct because it does not include the scholarships and grants reported in Box 5 and using "semesters billed" in your table heading when "billed" applies only to the Box 2 reporting method), I suggest you will better serve XYZ College by vetting the NACUBO's Form 1098-T Information Reporting "guidance" and customizable letters to students for accuracy and compliance with IRS tax reporting requirements. After all, it is not the NACUBO nor Ellucian-Banner that are subject to the penalties assessable under IRC 6721 and IRC 6722. https://www.irs.gov/irm/part20/irm_20-001-007r

I have attached a listing of the correct amounts (in green) that XYZ College should have reported on my child's 2015, 2016, 2017 (2 options), 2018 (2 options based on option selected for 2017) and 2019 Form 1098-Ts. I expect XYZ College to furnish CORRECTED Form 1098-Ts for all five tax years immediately. My child's mailing address through December 31, 2019 was [ ].

In case you still doubt my vastly superior tax reporting knowledge and expertise, I have attached two sets of my work memos detailing direct communications I had with the IRS. In both cases, the IRS representatives were more than willing to be helpful. XYZ College would do well to follow suit and straighten out the mess the NACUBO has put it in.

Sincerely,

[ARPad95 followed by the 4-letter acronym that signifies I'm highly educated in the financial services industry]



Suprisingly (and timely considering MineralMan's post), just yesterday I received an audit notice from the New York State Department of Taxation and Finance stating I owe $243.59 for Tax Year 2019:

Our records indicate the student received scholarships, grants, or both, greater than qualifying tuition expense. You reported college tuition expenses of $5,463.00 for [my child's name]. We allowed college tuition expenses of $0.00.


I wasn't expecting New York State to be ahead of the IRS on this matter, but no problem. The State is going to get every piece of documentation I received, I wrote and that supports my very correct position on this and I'll continue waiting patiently for the IRS to eventually "knock on the door."



ARPad95

(1,671 posts)
16. It's actually very simple and it's the NACUBO that mucked it up.
Wed Dec 22, 2021, 04:51 PM
Dec 2021

Here are the essential IRS instructions for Form 1098-T that these mid to large size institutions of higher learning could not figure out on their own because 1098-T reporting is outsourced and the NACUBO is relied on to "instruct" them instead of the IRS:

Box 1 - Enter the total amount of payments received for qualified tuition and related expenses from all sources during the calendar year. The amount reported is not reduced by scholarships and grants reported in box 5.

Box 5 - Enter the total amount of any scholarships or grants that you administered and processed during the calendar year for the payment of the student’s costs of attendance. Scholarships and grants generally include all payments received from third parties (excluding family members and loan proceeds).

I bet you can easily figure out what amounts should have gone in Box 1 (hint: no math skills required) and Box 5 of the 2019 Form 1098-T based on my child's 2019 Spring semester when my child was a senior and did not live on campus (i.e., no payments were made to the college for room & board):

XYZ College 2019 Spring Term tuition only = $21,989.00

Payments received by XYZ College for tuition during calendar year 2019:

Source 1 Scholarships = $13,676.00

Source 2 Grants = $2,850.00

Source 3 Federal Direct Student Loans = $2,721.00

Source 4 Balance due and paid by parent = $2,742.00



This is the what the college reported to the IRS on my child's 2019 Form 1098-T:

Box 1 = $3,251.38 (very incorrect oddball amount and totally laughable because at the very least it's supposed to include Box 5 amount)

Box 5 = $16,526.00 (correct)


The end result of this was that XYZ College reported to the IRS that it received only $3,251.38 in tuition payments on behalf of my child. Therefore, the scholarships and grants reported in Box 5 that exceeded the tuition amount reported in Box 1 by $13,274.62 are considered taxable income and made me ineligible to claim the education expenses deduction I was entitled to on my 2019 income tax return!

On top of that I had to deal with the arrogantly incompetent and ignorant college staff members involved in 1098-T reporting in the Student Financial Services office and the Assistant Counsel who responded to me out-of-the-blue as an intimidation tactic to get me to go away. And all they did by stupidly ignoring me and all of my requests for a CORRECTED 2019 Form 1098-T was open up a big ol' can of worms because the college's incorrect Form 1098-T reporting goes way back. That's why I can't wait for the IRS to send me an audit letter so this college and all of the other ones who have brushed off parents and students when it comes to Form 1098-T reporting can finally get their collective selves heavily penalized by the IRS. It would be a HUGE windfall for the US Treasury!

By the way, I was once the expert responsible for 1099 tax reporting (several different forms including one that is a whole lot more complicated then the comparatively simple 1098-T) for a life insurance company so I know whereof I speak.

ecstatic

(32,731 posts)
18. Since when does the IRS inform us of available cash/credits?
Wed Dec 22, 2021, 06:27 PM
Dec 2021

I've never heard of that. They don't even have the manpower to assist in that. Are you sure it isn't a scam?

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